[sans-serif]

In my experience Americans sort of take for granted the breadth and depth of consumer protection you enjoy. I'd wager that in an insignificant portion of countries Apple expanded to, they have had to significantly cut back on refunds/warrantees they offer to combat fraud and abuse.

[DaiPlusPlus]

> In my experience Americans sort of take for granted the breadth and depth of consumer protection you enjoy.

As a european, it's amusing to hear you say that as the majority of European countries have far, far more stringent consumer-protection regs than the US, such as mandatory 2 year warranties, distance-selling laws, legal rights to a refund or replacement, and so on. Apple's 90 day warranty is a joke when you can buy the same product, for almost the same price after factoring-in VAT, with a 2 year warranty only a 5 hour flight away...

[gambiting]

And everywhere in EU sellers have to accept a return within 14 days for any online purchases, for any reason. And no, they can't charge a restocking fee. You can only be asked to pay for the postage back.

And in general, the responsibility for the goods is always with the seller first, manufacturer second. If your laptop breaks and the seller says "oh the manufacturer declined warranty" then sorry, tough luck, it's the seller who has to repair/replace it now.

[pembrook]

In the EU however, you generally are paying for that extra protection in the form of higher prices from retailers. There's no free lunch. The market isn't perfectly efficient, but it's pretty damn efficient. It's not like companies operating in countries where warranty is the law will suddenly say "welp, I guess we'll just have to accept less profit in the EU then, hopefully global consumers don't catch on!"

Whether you pay for extra protections via higher prices automatically (EU) or as an a la carte add-on (US) is irrelevant. On a risk adjusted basis, the cost is the same.

The EU simply cuts off the consumer's ability to take more risk for lower cost. They force you to buy the warranty every time.

[gambiting]

I'm honestly curious - how so? In all my adult life I have been comparing prices between EU and US and they are always about the same once you factor in taxes. Yes the VAT can make items slightly more expensive, but VAT has absolutely nothing to do with the retailers responsibility for the product, right?

>>On a risk adjusted basis, the cost is the same.

I'd love to see how you came to that conclusion. In EU the seller is always responsible for 2 years after sale for the product, in the US a 2 year warranty will be few hundred dollars on laptops and other expensive items. The difference is definitely not the same.

[pembrook]

This has been the subject of numerous academic papers. Again, it's not like the EU government has somehow fooled companies into losing money in the EU.

I highly doubt you're doing true absolute calculations factoring in all the supply chain, macroeconomic, and tax considerations.

The reason you can't easily compare this at a glance is complicated by currency fluctuations, shipping costs, labor costs, embedded VAT in prices vs. taxes added at purchase, VAT rebates, differences in EU warranty law vs. purchased warranties in the US, "discount" marketing tactics of American retailers vs. European retailers, everyday low prices vs. seasonal discounting, etc.

Trust me when I say you're not enjoying some free lunch at the expense of corporate earnings by living in the EU. You're simply restricting consumer and entrepreneur choices, by preemptively deciding what the consumer needs.

Which can be good or bad depending on the item in question. Computer hardware? Not sure we need the nanny state involved, there's healthy competition and you run the risk of stifling new business models from arising (it's no secret that Europe isn't exactly a hotbed of tech innovation). Healthcare? Now that's a different story.

[gambiting]

>>Trust me when I say you're not enjoying some free lunch at the expense of corporate earnings by living in the EU. You're simply restricting consumer and entrepreneur choices, by preemptively deciding what the consumer needs.

I mean, I do see your point. But we as a society have decided that sellers should be responsible for a minimum of 2 years for any items they sell. That's just what we (society) require from anyone willing to run a business. We also require them not to dump toxic waste into rivers, and pay their taxes - all enterpreneurs the world over have certain obligations to the state, US just placed the bar lower than elsewhere. I don't mean to say which approach is "right", but I do mean to say that as a consumer I like having greater protections in the EU, even if "perhaps" it means the products bought here cost more.

[iamcurious]

> This has been the subject of numerous academic papers.

Those papers sound interesting. Can you recommend any?

>it's no secret that Europe isn't exactly a hotbed of tech innovation

When you mean innovation, do you refer to Xerox and Bell Labs? Or to Microsoft and Apple? Cause europe has a lot of the first kind, not much of the second kind. And even when they do, they might end being sold out. Like Nokia and Skype.

[fieldcny]

Companies absolutely accept and expect different margins in different countries, just look at drug prices. Companies maximize their margins in the markets they participate in.

You are right that it is not a free lunch it’s just a difference in the margin.

You could also argue that two year warranties in the us are priced obscenely (like drugs).

[vetinari]

> within 14 days for any online purchases

Almost. It does not apply to custom-made products. Apple resellers consider BTO models to be custom-made and thus not eligible for this protection. But at least they warn you upfront.

[DaiPlusPlus]

> Apple resellers consider BTO models to be custom-made and thus not eligible for this protection.

I thought the only get-out for Apple was personalized items, namely those with laser-engraving. BTO/JIT orders where you choose from a narrow set of options (e.g. RAM size, HDD size, etc) in Apple's case probably wouldn't be BTO because they tend to pre-assemble a modest stockpile of all of the different BTO configs.

Lower-volume products, like the $6000 Mac Pro might have a case, but it's not like a returned (but new, even unopened) MacPro isn't resalable...

[vetinari]

I was purchasing BTO MBP (I would think a popular config at that) in December and got that notice... Apple itself might not do that, but we don't have them here (not all EU countries have the presence), and they probably don't take the return from the resellers.

[bobbylarrybobby]

Aren’t the customers who don’t return their purchases subsidizing the cost of the ones who do? I’d much prefer to pay a restocking fee (or to have more stringent return policies) if it meant I could pay a little less up front.

[gambiting]

I mean...what a weird way to look at it. Yes I suppose you're right but we as a society decided that if sellers want to sell things remotely(online, through post, through telephone sales) then it's only fair that customers have the right to inspect the item and return it if they don't like it. You don't have that right if you bought the item in a physical store because you could inspect the item there.

[benhurmarcel]

> when you can buy the same product, for almost the same price after factoring-in VAT

Uh, not at all.

Converted to USD and without tax below. Apple products are 11-16% more expensive in Europe

iPhone 12: US price $699 - Europe price without VAT $807

iPhone 12 Pro Max: US price $1099 - Europe price without VAT $1256

iPad Air: US price $599 - Europe price without VAT $667

Macbook Air: US price $999 - Europe price without VAT $1126

[DaiPlusPlus]

Where are you getting those prices from? If it's the Apple Store, which country's Apple store and original currency values are being used?

[benhurmarcel]

I used the US Apple website, and the French Apple website in that case (in €, converted to USD using WolframAlpha and accounting for 20% VAT). I've already seen in the past that the Spanish and German Apple websites have similar prices to the French one.

[wolfretcrap]

It's true I am from India, last time even after taxes, apple products were cheapest in Switzerland, other countries did charge like 5-10% more

[benhurmarcel]

Switzerland has a 7.7% VAT, when most of Europe has about 20%. That's on top of the prices I gave.

[zepto]

My experience in Europe was that the result of those laws is businesses that operate within the letter of the law, whereas in the US they often operate more generously.

For example Apple in the US let me return a first gen 12.9” iPad Pro after about 4 months and exchange it for the 9.7” version the week it came out.

I would have expected a flat out no from retailers in Europe.

[ksec]

That is why you used to read about Apple's exceptional services. They are and only happens in the state. Such as free repair for certain thing or giving cheaper discount to repair etc. In EU and UK those services are expected.

Now Apple doesn't do it. They push you to buy a new product whenever possible along with AppleCare+. Apple Retail employees dont run on commission in US ( Not sure if that is still the case). I remember someone said Apple Retail Italy runs on commission basis. I also know Apple Retail employees also has KPI based on AppleCare+ they sold in the past few years.

Yes.... the whole Apple Retail experience is going against how Steve Job originally envisioning it. For Tim Cook, it is nothing more than a cost center on balance sheet.

[duxup]

I worked at a chain pizza place growing up that advertised its money back offer if you didn't like your pizza. When they advertised it I just assumed a lot of people would take advantage of it.

Our store was one of the busiest in the US for a single store. One guy ... just one guy abused it regularly. Beyond him almost nobody ever took advantage of the offer at all... Easy enough for the store manager to tell that guy to knock it off and there ya go.

What I assumed was a crazy / unwise policy, effectively cost them nothing, hardly was ever used, didn't require any new processes at all, and amounted to just a advertising slogan.

I was surprised and impressed.

[moftz]

People are probably more embarrassed to ask for their money back on something they have partially or entirely eaten. I can barely muster up the courage to tell my waiter that my dinner order wasn't quite right but I have zero problem with buying a couple different versions of a product and returning the ones I don't like.

[pbadenski]

That's interesting - I hate wasting food, I have never complained about my order (and not planning too, unless the food is spoiled I guess). If I don't like the food, I'll just never order again from the same place. I would definitely appreciate a company that offers money refund on food "no questions asked" even if I was never going to use it - it shows respect.

[kube-system]

In the US, Aldi, and I think some other grocery stores do this.

[bellyfullofbac]

If I were the manager I'd just say, if the guy calls, let me talk to him, and then tell him "It doesn't seem you really like our pizzas, we don't want to ruin your dinner, so why don't you order somewhere else?".

A better manager would figure out how to keep him as a paying customer...

[darkwizard42]

Agreed, but I don't think Americans take it for granted; I think they just don't abuse it. By not abusing a good faith return policy you allow the company to provide one that is consumer friendly.

[petee]

Eh, look what happened to LL Bean, they had one of the last real good faith return policies, and it was abused to hard they had to reverse lifetime warranty on existing products to two(?) years. And create a list to track individuals making the returns

I hear they'll still honor it in some obvious cases...

[selectodude]

REI did the same thing. People would return ten year old jackets for a full refund because a feather was sticking out.

Even Costco has drastically scaled back the return policy on electronics for that reason. In large enough groups, people suck.

[amznthrwaway]

There’s substantial abuse of these policies in the US.

[sergiotapia]

nothing to do with consumer protection, everything to do with culture. the majority of people simply don't abuse it.

[77pt77]

> In my experience Americans sort of take for granted the breadth and depth of consumer protection you enjoy.

Please. American consumer protection is almost non-existent, especially when compared with places like the EU.