[AWildC182]

Long time high level rower here. Why make a new rowing machine when Concept 2 is the calibration standard all athletes use and has a relatively open USB interface?

For those not in the know, rowing machines all have different calibrations. C2 is the standard because they're very consistent across machines and are by far the best made allowing for many thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced rowers won't touch anything other than a C2.

Edit: reading further, the 'moat' here appears to be electrically controlled 100lb high resistance settings. Be VERY careful with this. It's well established that most non-trained athletes will hurt themselves with this feature as it's a common trope on C2 machines. The rowing posture can be rather dangerous for high weight if misused.

[gregsadetsky]

Not only does the C2 has an USB interface, but recent models have Bluetooth as well...! (I'm a happy C2 owner)

I found an example project some time ago of a web site using Chrome's Bluetooth JavaScript API to recreate a rowing monitor and filed it away in case I would ever get to that side project :-)

In case someone's interested to collab: I would build a 3D world through which you row. I know apps/games like these exist but an open version would be great (also the ones I found seemed to have so-so 3d graphics). And compatibility with VR headsets too..!

Just to add to this: an Apple TV-compatible, 3D rowing app would be supremely interesting to consider...

Building a web-based C2 monitor via Bluetooth: https://bandarra.me/2017/02/20/Fitness-Tracking-with-Web-Blu...

Interacting with Bluetooth over JS: https://web.dev/bluetooth/

The Bluetooth communications spec from C2! https://www.concept2.co.uk/files/pdf/us/monitors/PM5_Bluetoo...

[ghaff]

I'm pretty good about going out to take a walk/hike pretty much any day when the weather is remotely tolerable. But exercise equipment really does bore me. My C2 is 15+ years old and I don't use it a lot. But I'd upgrade the performance monitor in a heartbeat if there were a way to use it in conjunction with an Apple TV for a non-subscription immersive experience. (Something in the Hydrow vein.)

[gregsadetsky]

You'd still need the monitor (what Concept2 calls the "PM5") to send Bluetooth data to your Apple TV, but you could fold the arm so that the monitor wouldn't be in the way of your tv.

I totally agree with you, rowing while even just watching TV is a lot more enjoyable. Having anything interactive (games/immersive) would be really great.

Re: subscription, I agree that it'd be interesting to build something for free that everyone can use, and maybe try to sustain this with subscriptions for extra features (competitions, etc.)

Finally, maybe the trick to building this out rapidly is to start with a web version. You'd connect your C2 to your computer via bluetooth, and then you could stream your computer to the Apple TV. A native Apple TV app would be better though, but it's more work. A web/three.js prototype is faster to put together (for me, at least -- a Unity developer might want to do this natively)

Should I try to make a launch page and if I get 1000 emails, go off and do it hah? :-)

---

Actually, an iOS app that would run on iPads (the perfect-ish format for a C2 immersive monitor) is really interesting... Maybe iOS/AppleTV is the way to go after all...

[ghaff]

I have my C2 in a room with a big TV on the wall but, yeah, practically speaking something that interfaces with an iPad app probably makes more sense in general. Rigging up an iPad stand for a C2 would be pretty trivial--and may well already exist.

If I were seriously looking at something like this as a business, I'd probably want to do a non-subscription offering that let you row down the Charles and other such rivers in an immersive and somewhat randomized environment but tried to get people to pay for real P2P interactions--which a lot would.

Not an actual interest of mine to do but I think someone could retrofit a much better virtual experience on a C2 than currently exists that people would pay good money for.

[andreban]

Btw, Web Bluetooth is not only supported by Chrome, but also by Edge, Samsung Internet and others. More on supported browsers on https://caniuse.com/?search=web%20bluetooth

The source for the PM5 / Bluetooth integration is here: https://github.com/GoogleChromeLabs/rowing-monitor/

[sebasmurphy]

C2 is really an engineering masterpiece. Simple, works forever, cheap replaceable parts, anyone can do the maintenance after watching a YouTube vid.

Also super cool that you can upgrade the display/head unit w/o having to get a new rower.

It's also significantly cheaper than this machine and has exceptionally high re-sale value.

[bob1029]

The C2 is the best machine I've ever purchased. Ive got 3.6 million lifetime meters on mine, and the most I've ever done to maintain it is wipe down the rail/rollers and put some 3-1 oil on the chain.

[FullNameAndy]

You are 100% right, the C2 is a tank. I have one too. But the C2 might not be right for everyone. I think we might be able to get more butts on rowers if we can make the experience more enjoyable for those who aren't motivated by the C2 and its current content.

[FullNameAndy]

Great question and ADominic answered it well. The C2 is an amazing rower, I have one too. We don't target the hard core rower. And a huge part of our high intensity experience is the electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of resistance. Our rower automatically adjusts the resistance depending on the workout and your goals.

[AWildC182]

Why vary resistance? Most athletes learn to handle one resistance setting, the National Team standard being IIRC DF120, though anything between 100 and 120 is fine. Changing it tends to throw people for a loop.

[sleepydog]

I rowed in college and have countless hours on concept 2 rowers. Outside of very specific drills I picked one weight setting and stuck with it. If I wanted to vary the difficulty I just rowed faster.

I don't think varying the weight is good for your form and it could be dangerous for your back if your form is bad. After all, you can't vary the resistance of water in a real boat (I suppose you could pour gelatin in a lake). Intensity could be varied just by changing the stroke rate.

[FullNameAndy]

good question. Aviron's resistance settings are used to enable high intensity interval training (HIIT) and workout variety for the average person/ fitness enthusiast. For example we have strength programs that guide you through bicep curls using the bar (with an animation that shows feet firmly planted on the ground and a low and steady motion, if you're moving too quickly Aviron will sense it and tell you to slow down your movement)

[naewonawonga]

>> We don't target the hard core rower.

Your marketing material suggests that one of the strengths of the platform is that it allows one to compete against professional athletes and Olympians.

Which is it?

[FullNameAndy]

I've always wanted to see what it is like racing against some of the best athletes like Olympic boxers or MMA champions, but it doesn't mean I'm a hard core rower :)

[Alex3917]

> C2 is the standard because they're very consistent across machines and are by far the best made allowig for many thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced rowers won't touch anything other than a C2.

Most colleges also have a few Gamuts around. I actually think it would be really fun to do quarter mile sprints against real people on a Gamut-type erg with these kind of screens.

[FullNameAndy]

Hey Alex, you are right, most experienced rowers won't touch anything other than a C2. But there are a ton of people who see the benefits of rowing but aren't interested in the C2 for various reasons. We feel we have a great alternative for those people.

[madaxe_again]

This was my query - it’s almost impossible to replace the concept 2, as it’s the de facto standard for splits and 2k times etc.

Add to that, I recall us racing the ergs on a virtual lake on a tv as far back as 2000 or so - made doing 2ks way more interesting, as you could compete with the rest of the crew directly.

[ADominic]

also a former rower - I don't think we're the target market. If you've never touched an erg, it might not really matter whether you start on a C2 or not. And I'd guess controlling the hardware also gives them more control over the entire user experience + their own costs.

[rloomba]

fwiw i'm actually not a former rower and I just purchased a C2 after some very light research. It's the industry standard, it's relatively cheap, and ALL of the apps are specifically designed or have have seamless integration with the C2.

[FullNameAndy]

It is a great machine - I have one too :)

[rloomba]

sweet. If you develop an app that integrates with the C2, I will be your first paying user to try it.

[asensei]

You won't be our first paying user (there are thousands of them) but we'd love you to download asensei which connect seamlessly with your Concept2 and lets you follow programs and workouts from 4x Olympians to Studio Rowing instructors.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/asensei/id1335539383

You can try a free trial with Eric Murray (one half of the famous KiwiPair) before committing to a purchase.

If anyone wants to purchase an annual membership, the code HN20 is good for 20% off until the end of the weekend.

And when you're ready to get coaching on your form/technique, or mix in strength, TRX and mobility training alongside your rowing, our new smart (app)arel coaching will give you real-time feedback on your technique and form as you're guided through structured training programs.

Our personal coaching program opened last week here: https://asensei.com/products/personal-coaching-apparel

And you can see what the coaching experience will be in the video at the foot of this page here: https://coaching.asensei.com/

Good luck to the team at Aviron with the launch. When you're ready to bring form and technique coaching to the product to ensure people are rowing safely and correctly, feel free to reach out to me to understand how you can incorporate asensei Connected Coaching in your product for your customers!

Best,

Steven CEO, asensei

[AWildC182]

I see this as an insanely dangerous game. IME most non-rowers won't touch an erg without significant instruction/encouragement as they're technique dependent. Any that do will quickly figure out from anyone who has rowed that C2 is the standard and everything else on the market is flaming garbage.

Add to this that I could recreate this business using the C2 API in a couple weeks and suddenly have a market of everyone who owns a C2 (all the people in this thread complaining that it doesn't support their machine) along with a literal potential customer list available through C2.

[chermanowicz]

This. As a former rower I'm biased, but also I have a C2 that sits around unused, mainly because as I've gotten older, I care less about the competitive/fitness optimization aspect of working out and more about fun.

Having tried several of the third party apps for C2, they've all suffered from 2 problems: pretty sub-par development/bugginess & wrong (or bad) content for the mass market. So much training oriented content and little on the fun/gamification side. I would pay $ for the right app, but not for a new rower. Ergatta is cool but again I wouldn't go out and buy one. When you think about the hundreds of thousands of C2s, it is a nice opportunity.

[ADominic]

I tend to agree, everyone knows how to ride a bike and learning to row without injuring yourself, even on a machine, takes time. I wonder what % of people with rowing machines at home, c2 or otherwise, are current/former rowers vs crossfit, regular gym goers, etc

[FullNameAndy]

You make a good point re: the C2 market. I mentioned up top that a huge part of our experience is the electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of force. Our high-intensity games and strength content, which differentiates us, requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own rower. Thanks for the feedback.

[AWildC182]

Edited my comment when I saw this. This is exceedingly dangerous. Ask any rower that's worked with people on C2 machines. Everyone will instinctively throw the damper to setting 10, then throw their back due to bad posture.

[FitFox]

I'm a little confused by your harsh comments AWildC182. Obviously you're a fan of the C2, but isn't the point of this rower to open up a fitness experience for both new and pro users alike that's different from what's already been tried and tested in the market? I get the whole "don't fix what ain't broke" mindset, but the whole point of innovation is to broaden horizons and our experience with fitness. Plus, I saw that they have instruction videos on how to row, and just like any product, they've recommended starting on the easy levels and working your way up. Anyone that tosses themselves into the most difficult setting on anything without warming up is asking for an injury, and this goes beyond rowing.

[AWildC182]

Did you create this account for this purpose?

I don't have any stake in C2, I just want to make clear that they are the standard that this will be measured against and that they are said standard for a reason. Anything advertised lesser should be viewed with suspicion, particularly for safety critical products.

All that said, there are opportunities to improve, but those opportunities mainly exist in the software space. Focusing on hardware solely to create a moat isn't innovation, it's making landfill fodder.

Finally, I have significant experience in this area, both as an athlete and a coach. Enough that I would unmask myself very quickly if I mentioned any details. I don't coach anymore and don't have any financial interest in that either. Teaching people to use these devices safely isn't an "instructional videos" and "warm up" ordeal. This will sound silly but people generally don't know what their body is doing without tight feedback loops and their perception breaks down under stress/over the duration of a workout. We frequently had people row in front of mirrors to get things to click (another business opportunity in the computer vision space). It's painfully obvious when you go anywhere that has mixed classically trained and self trained rowers who is who.

I only raise questions because the move-fast-break-things approach is dangerous when you're breaking people. I couldn't care less about the VCs getting fleeced by this.

[Alex3917]

> Everyone will instinctively throw the damper to setting 10, then throw their back due to bad posture.

The people who do that normally only row for a few minutes at a time, and aren't really at any significant risk of injury. The only class of people who seem to consistently develop back problems from rowing machines are people who train on them for hours a day in high school and never lift weights.

All the other back injuries in rowing are usually from either sweep rowing or from lifting.

[AWildC182]

The standard rowing machines (sit on sliding seat, feet stationary) can actually be pretty abusive to the spine, worse than scull or sweep. I've seen inexperienced people actually hurt themselves. It's mostly an issue of shock at the catch and finish. Dynamic machines such as those made by C2, Row perfect, etc are a bit better in this regard and might be a better fit for this market.

[cycomanic]

I'm a former rower as well, I disagree that sitting on a rower is dangerous for getting back injury. Considering that pretty much every gym I know just puts them in some corner without anyone around who knows how to row, I believe this is not an issue.

I know of no one who has injured themselves rowing (on a machine or outside).

[AWildC182]

This is going to come down to experience but I'd say the majority of those I trained with had dealt with an injury at one point or another. Most women, particularly the lightweight class experienced broken ribs from strain across the core and most of the guys had lower back issues at one point or another.

I'm not saying these things are death machines or anything, but the concept of adding essentially seated row to a rowing machine is fairly dangerous. Throwing an air damper up to 10 and ripping on it for a couple minutes will leave you quite sore the next morning but adding high weight can start pulling muscles or slipping discs.

[FullNameAndy]

Good point. We do our best to educate users with intro rowing videos that can be found on the touchscreen. Any any time the resistance is at a high level, we use little animations that show proper form and technique.

[AWildC182]

This is a kind of thing that needs a lot of direct coaching to achieve...

There are two major rowing postures you'll find people tend to use, hips rotated forward and hips back (spine slightly arched forward/convex). Neither is really wrong but for high resistance you need to be in the hips forward position (back slightly concave) as is the technique for weight lifting in the seated row. IME most people don't actually comprehend which position they're in but using the wrong one can be catastrophic. You typically have to spend a few hours with someone ensuring they stay in the correct orientation before they really get it.

[phjesusthatguy3]

I've seen numerous ads for Peleton; I have no idea what Concept 2 is, much less some ad on YC for yet another YC product I'm not going to buy.

In addition, I've seen at least one New York Times article (each) wringing their hands about Biden riding a Peleton and wearing a Rolex, like it's surprising that US Presidents are inordinately rich.

Anyway, I'm gonna get my fat ass back on the hydraulic rowing machine I have stored in my basement before I buy anything else from anyone.