[Uberphallus]

Honestly, this reads as those books titled "How to make money selling books on Amazon".

Living in France, I can tell, France is very startup hostile.

The amount of taxes a company has to pay and the amount of paperwork to do (or money to delegate it) is just absurd.

The only way a small tech company can make any money and be sustainable (let alone grow) is having all employees as associates (with all the organizational problems that such thing will bring) and take dividends instead of salaries, otherwise literally more than half of the salary is gone in taxes.

And of course, this is all having their own day job, or taking a "company creation" sabbatical year, which is the only actually helpful thing for startups you'll find in France. You can take a year off from your job, try to create a company, and after the year your employer has to take you back in the same position (if you want, obviously). You need to have worked a number of years before, both in global and with your current employer, though.

VC culture is close to non existing, so you need very good connections to have investors, and those connections often times aren't in France. Financial and investing groups in France are very conservative.

Literally all new companies I've seen founded are like that, and from those that live longer than a year, about 50% move their HQ elsewhere, normally the place where the funding came from.

With the numbers we made back in the day (we were 5), the gap from "we're making some money on the side" to "we need to hire someone who isn't a founder" was about €300,000 yearly in extra revenue. Otherwise it wasn't worth it.

[bouzouk]

Living in Paris for a very long time and having started a few businesses (current one: a challenger bank with 20+ employees), I don’t relate to anything you are saying.

Yes there are high taxes, (not half of the salary, for a software engineer it is very often around 30%) but they basically cover a lot of employee services that you would need to pay extra for in the US (health coverage, retirement,...).

Most startup in France don’t have « all employees as associate », that makes no sense to me. I currently have 20+ employees with no problem, and most startup are in the same situation.

On the VC problem, you are partly right. There are plenty of VC thank you! Partech, Kima, Alven, Daphni... Only to cite the French ones, but you have access to VC everywhere in Europe. It it actually fairly simple to get small investments, but to be honest, it is still a bit difficult to get some large ones (you still have to look for it abroad).

I actually don’t see French startups moving there HQ somewhere else, so I wonder where that affirmation came from... maybe you’re just talking about the ones that are expending abroad.

Aren’t you just repeating some stereotypes you heard elsewhere? If France were as hostile as you pictured it, how would it have such a dense startup ecosystem and even (God forbids!) some very successful ones?

[user5994461]

Here's the taxes on French salaries for reference.

- The company has 60k budget.

- 25% goes to employer tax (charges patronales). 45k left. That's commonly called the gross salary (salaire brut).

- 25% goes to employee tax (charges sociales). 34k left. Commonly called the net salary (salaire net)

- Employee pays income tax at the end of the year. The rate is progressive and highly variable depending on personal situation. (30k left if you're single living alone).

Tip: Generally speaking I strongly advise to avoid discussing taxes with French citizens, fact is absolutely nobody understands where money goes to or how much. The usual payslip only shows the "charges sociales" itemized as 10 to 20 lines of things.

[krstf13]

This is grossly inaccurate. What you're calling taxes, are fees that allow employee to get several benefits. Practically speaking, these are delayed salary.

They include social security, unemployment benefits, retirement benefits, training ...

When your employee is sick, they can stay at home without losing their pay, and without your company paying for it. They can seek medical treatment without risking bankruptcy.

If you have to lower you activity because business is bad, you can put in place part time unemployment, and your employees won't lose money in the process...

Also, the fees paid by the employer are often subsidised through eg tax credits, reimbursements (up to a certain amount)... So that these numbers are not only inaccurate but also totally meaningless.

[user5994461]

French has multiple words historically (impots, taxes, charges) with subtle differences in meaning. However they've not been observed strictly in a long long time. It's all money taken out of the employee pocket at the end of the day.

In English it's all translated to "tax" and rightfully so. English languages and cultures don't have subtle semantics like French does. For example everything in the UK is a tax, corporation tax, income tax, council tax, etc... (one exception being the UK national insurance).

[shard]

Same in the US. On my paycheck there are Social Security tax, Medicare tax, State disability insurance tax, State unemployment insurance tax. If it is a mandatory deduction taken out of your paycheck to fund a government project (not the best word, but can't think of the proper word at the moment), even if you get benefits later, it's called a tax.

[bgorman]

The US Government tries the same trick.

Social Security is a called an "insurance program" although it is completely unrelated to conventional insurance. The closest financial instrument is a Ponzi scheme, which is illegal under US law.

[krstf13]

Nope,that’s not correct. Even in English health insurance is not tax, unemployment insurance is not tax... And by the way what you call ‘charges’ is historically‘cotisations’ (fees).

[hansvm]

In my circle of acquaintances, the distinction lies not in what the money is funding (e.g. health care), but in where it's going:

Health coverage goes to some entity that isn't the government and is usually optional, so it's viewed as a benefit and taken into account when computing total compensation.

Unemployment insurance on the other hand is taken out of every paycheck and handed to the government without an opt-out. Yes, of course you get something for it; the whole point of taxes is that society gets something in return. They're still taxes.

[krstf13]

Also, you lie and move the goal posts. You really should say that you don’t wanna pay your employees. Fine by me, but be frank about it. I know I’ll be downvoted here, but the truth is this guy doesn’t want to pay his employees and pretends it’s because of additional costs that burden him. He’d rather give them more, if only they were able to spend responsibly. Yet, he doesn’t know the first thing about taxes, fees and lumps them together. I welcome disagreements, but I wish un readers were slightly more rigorous.

[hansvm]

I don't get that impression at all. The person you're replying to hasn't done anything more than try to clarify that whatever you want to call the cash being extracted by the French government, a reasonable person in other parts of the world could call it a tax and not miss any important defining characteristics.

With respect to claims of wanting to underpay employees, I don't think that's something anyone is actually arguing for when they talk about unfriendliness toward startups. The French government is levying a high _proportional_ tax to cover _fixed_ fees like health care. This can make sense at a societal level as a form of wealth redistribution, but it's a disadvantage for high earners like those in the software industry. Those employees can earn more in other countries with the same cost to their employers simply because less is taken out of their paycheck, and because the difference is more than enough to cover fixed fees like health care it's a good move for them to do so. The people being disadvantaged aren't startup employees (not passing a moral judgement -- the claim itself just seemed off).

[kelnos]

I think quibbling about terminology misses the point. If you think about it as the total cost per employee, it seems like a a lot that doesn't actually go directly to the employee as take-home pay. I think a lot of that is good, and replaces other external costs, but it's still a lot of extra money a small company will need to budget just to hire someone.

And things like tax credits are only useful if you have the cash on hand immediately, and can wait up to a year to get it back. A brand-new venture may not have that.

[xur17]

All of this is called "tax" in the US.

[athenot]

Not quite: health insurance is not called tax in the US, yet is a benefit under the French system with premiums paid by the employer.

[user5994461]

Not quite: An employer in France must provide a private health insurance plan to employees. It is paid out of the pocket of the employee and they can't refuse it.

France has good public health service but it's also pushing private health insurance down the throat of everybody through their employers, quite like the UK or the US. The large majority of the population has double coverage.

[lma21]

Charges patronales and charges sociales are not really "taxes" given your understanding of taxation.

Charges patronales and charges sociales are well explained in every payslip, i.e. where that money goes and how the employee/employer benefit from them.

Also, every person's net income tax is also explained and you can see where it goes.

At the end of the day, when a French person loses their job (even if they're a non-essential worker in any industry), they go home not worrying about a single damn thing... it's good to have such security, no?

[jbn]

You are right that Charges patronales and charges sociales are not really "taxes" , in fact some politicians (LFI and EELV come to mind) insist on calling it "socialized portion of the employee salary", which is a better description.

However doing this would cause a mind shift where the employees would realize how large a fraction of their compensation package is in fact retained by the government either in the form of taxes or in the form of charges. A positive outcome of this is that it would force this realization, since so many people think healthcare/education/pension are free...

Another aspect to this is that different corporations have been allowed to charge these Charges patronales and charges sociales at different rates (for instance nurses pay 14% for retirement, whereas the rest of the population pays 28%...). Worse an entire half of the workforce, namely all the civil servants, have no Charges patronales and charges sociales at all (in other words, the French state is a special employer that gets away with not paying for these, paying for the actual pensions out of its general budget rather than its stowed-away-for-later funds.... and when the French state goes bankrupt, it just needs to raise more taxes on the private sector employees to make payroll on its pensions!).

[kelnos]

I agree that it's great for the French worker (way better than how US workers are treated), but you have to also see how it's a disincentive for a French entrepreneur to create a new company, no?

[ldng]

It has been that way quite a few decades. Yet, people are still creating companies. So maybe it is harder than somewhere else but it is far from being the only problem you'll meet when creating a company.

[ldng]

The term "Charges" is not even legally correct. It is a way to give it a negative bias on purpose.

[jbn]

Yes. "Charges" translates to "load" or "burden" in English. Using that word makes it sound like it is only the employer that bears this burden, whereas it is very much >50% of the employee compensation package that is socialized (or mutualized, which may be a better word) towards health/unemployment/age insurance.

[BiteCode_dev]

> Aren’t you just repeating some stereotypes you heard elsewhere? If France were as hostile as you pictured it, how would it have such a dense startup ecosystem and even (God forbids!) some very successful ones?

Where are they? Cause as a French, I've been living on the startup scene for 10 years, and I don't see those anywhere. There are successful companies, but startup?

I hear about a 1000 more US ones than french ones, while I'm literally living next to an incubator.

[ldng]

Is it fair to compare France to USA though ? In term of scale maybe comparing to Europe would be better.

Are you both saying that you are "living on the startup scene" but don't see any startup ? Or any successful ones. On the top of my head I can already cite you Blablacar, CapitaineTrain, Dailymotion, Deezer as relatively successful for the French market ... Of course if you're looking for planetary mastodon as sign of success ...

[BiteCode_dev]

Those are not successfull start ups, those are companies that make money.

There are plenty in france.

The startup model assumes you use VC cash to drive explosive growth.

Bla bla car took 13 years to slowly becomes the average company it is, being covoiturage.fr before. Deezer barely makes a dent in spotify market despite the fact it was born before. Even french don't know about daily motion, it survives because of all the pirated content it contains. Captain train had a moment, and lost it. The oui sncf service has won. At least if you disagree, none of them scream "explosive growth" in my mind.

I'm not saying there are no successful startups. Meetic and free are examples of that in there times.

But there's not a lot of it. Next door, ledger was midly successful, and maybe kryll will do something if they manage to get binance on board and then add the forex to their targets, but I don't see a uber, stripe, dropbox, etc. anywhere.

[nerbert]

It’s very common for French people to negate the advantages of the system they live in. France makes it easy to start a company and find seed investment. Paperwork became very limited over the years. People who describe France as startup hostile country live in the past (15-20 years ago)

[throwaway4747l]

You're right, with the caveat that France as a country with a strong social safety net and the best healthcare system in the world© is also a thing of the past. We're on our way to become more like the US each passing day, make of that what you will.

[jbn]

w.r.t "best healthcare system in the world" there are only 2 countries that think this of their healthcare: France (because people think it's free... it is not) and the US (because mostly of the quality of emergency medecine IMHO). Of course both are wrong, and it is a meaningless contest anyway.

[AlchemistCamp]

So, let's say you're bootstrapping a new business and earning 1500€/month as a solo operator with no employees. How much does the overhead of the endeavor cost you?

The costs are minimal in every country I've worked in so far, but I know it's different in others.

Would you at least be able to get started for under 500€ and live off of your income in France as long as you lived in a low cost area and didn't have family or medical expenses?

[jcelerier]

> So, let's say you're bootstrapping a new business and earning 1500€/month as a solo operator with no employees. How much does the overhead of the endeavor cost you?

If you are earning 1500€ per month you can just be a "micro-company" (this works up to 75k€ per year of gross income). You'll get taxed roughly 25% on that income, and have a fixed fee depending on the city you live - for me it's around 400€ / year for instance. Everything is done by internet, the only thing you have to do is report every month on the state website how much you earned last month, which takes roughly 30 seconds if you have proper accounting.

[AlchemistCamp]

400€ / year is very doable! That bodes well for France's future bootstrapped entrepreneurs.

[krstf13]

To add to what the parent wrote, depending on your situation (eg unemployment) when your creating your micro-company, you get a grace period (up to 2 years, I believe) during which your fees are substantially reduced. And the fees include social security, with (since recently) roughly the same benefits as regular employees (except for compensation of lost revenues in case of illness, which is more complicated).

[rihegher]

Something I never see anyone mention about France taxes is that the biggest your family is the less you'll pay income tax (living with a partner makes the better paid one pay less tax and you'll pay ever less for each kid). Plus you get money for each of your kids that get borned and then money to help you raised them for a few years. Plus you get financial help to get them in a nusery. In short France is a fiscal heaven for families.

[Uberphallus]

> not half of the salary

More than half if you consider taxes on the company. A 30k salary costs the company about 80k. Sure, there are loads of social services, but still. In the company I created we did the work ourselves, and sometimes hired freelancers for certain things we're not familiar/experts in, but without external funding taking one single employee is a major blow to the accouting of a small company.

With 20 people you'll soon need to have a comité d'entreprise :P

> Most startup in France don’t have « all employees as associate », that makes no sense to me.

That's the only way to operate if you don't get external funding.

> I actually don’t see French startups moving there HQ somewhere else, so I wonder where that affirmation came from...

I'm sure Paris is different, but that's a common pattern for companies founded around Sophia Antipolis, the "Silicon Valley" of France. The startups that tend to stay it's because they have local clients, the rest often leave or die, with notable exceptions (LivePepper comes to mind).

> Aren’t you just repeating some stereotypes you heard elsewhere? If France were as hostile as you pictured it, how would it have such a dense startup ecosystem and even (God forbids!) some very successful ones?

Nope, I insist, I'm sure Paris is different, but most people don't live in Paris. Also dense compared to where? The Netherlands or Belgium are denser.

[bouzouk]

I’m sorry but no: a 30k salary does not cost the company 80k! It costs around 41k, or 49k if you take into account employee taxes (here is a simulator from the French government: https://entreprise.pole-emploi.fr/cout-salarie/).

« Comité d’entreprise » are for 50+ employees and not 20.

What’s the use in throwing around fake numbers just to make your point?

Even if that sure must be a nice place to live, that is the first time I heard Sophia Antipolis being the « Silicon Valley of France » :) Yes France startup ecosystem is highly polarized around Paris. But hey, just like Silicon Valley right? That’s a very different problem.

[js4ever]

I just use the link you have provided, if you fill the last field (net salary after tax, what is really paid to the bank account of the employee) to 30k/year, the total cost for employer is 57,950€. And not 41k like you mentioned

[toto444]

30K net / year is a decent salary in France considering it you don't have to save for retirement, childcare is cheap, school is free, uni is free, health insurance is cheap and you don't have to save too much in case you are unemployed because the benefits are decent.

[davidivadavid]

Oh so some people still believe you don't have to save for retirement in France. The legend lives on.

[Uberphallus]

It was a typo, I meant 40k costs 80k, and according to the simulator it's 72k (company pays 72k, employee gets 40k). It doesn't include Syntec as collective agreement but I don't think the results would be much different. So my bad, but still not far off. This level of fiscal pressure is on par with Scandinavian countries, to put it in perspective.

That's absolutely bonkers for a startup that is actually starting, as there's little to no cash flow.

Note I'm not defending lowering taxes, but in other countries companies have exemptions and/or reductions according to company age, revenue or activity sector (e.g. https://business.gov.nl/subsidy/tax-relief-new-companies/). That encourages companies to actually have a chance to take off and continue paying taxes, rather than suffocate them from the get go.

In France, the most I've seen are reductions applicable to taxe fonciere for new company, which is a tax too small to even matter.

Of course, if you have the contacts willing to invest, my whole point is moot.

> that is the first time I heard Sophia Antipolis being the « Silicon Valley of France »

Come over and they won't stop telling you :)

[wink]

From what I heard France has strong worker protection laws, even stronger than Germany. Do you think this is/could be a problem for startups?

I am absolutely against the US way of just firing people, but I accept the realism of small businesses and startups where you -as en employee- simply can't take for granted that your job (or company) will exist in 5 or even 2-3 years.

IIRC in Germany we have exceptions for <10 employees, for example.

[smcphile]

> From what I heard France has strong worker protection laws, even stronger than Germany. Do you think this is/could be a problem for startups?

Yes, France has strong worker protection laws, but if someone is found to have been abusively fired there’s a cap on how much they can sue for. The amount is based on how long they’ve been with the company. For example, after 2 years, the amount is 3 months salary, after 5 years, 6 months salary. The complete table is here: https://droit-finances.commentcamarche.com/faq/54743-bareme-...

[pkaye]

If an employer has layoffs what kind of severance does the employee get?

[npsomaratna]

Out of curiosity, what's the challenger bank you started? I'd love to learn more.

[bouzouk]

Blank (https://blank.app) It’s a bank for freelancers and all self-employed workers. It’s launching in a few weeks ;)

[MayeulC]

Hmm, I could be in the market for a new bank a bit later, but what isn't clear on your website is whether the app is mandatory, or the functionality is available trough the web browser? (PWA or WASM binary would be OK, I guess?).

I'm using N26 right now, but I have since stoped using closed-source software altogether on my phone, and will likely switch full-time to a pinephone. One of the things that irks me is that multiple services require 2FA trough their proprietary app or SMS rather than TOTP or FIDO/Webauthn/other security-token based tech. Not sure if that's for legal reasons? In any case, that's my number one usability issue with other banks.

[bouzouk]

contact me ;) hackernews at blank dot app

[Nextgrid]

Any chance you can just put the answer here? I am not in the market for a bank right now but would like to know anyway. I think it would be valuable for a lot of readers if you just addressed his concerns publicly.

[belzebalex]

Yeah, as a French I can only completely agree. The amount of paperwork is just absurd. For instance, when you create a company, you have to pay a separate fee (~200eur) to a private "official journal" to publish the fact that you're creating a company. That's just plain racket, and that kind of things is everywhere.

France is dying, because France can't have a private sector because of its regulations.

The fun part is, now that France is in the neo-liberal EU, France is dismantling its super-big-yet-working-ok public sector to make place for private companies... That can't exist because of regulations.

France is dying to me. As an 18-yo, I'm seriously concerned on what to do for my future. The country has a super good education system (I would easily say the best in the world, by far) (just check out the ENS's Nobel prize / admissions ratio) but has no companies where people do any work. Most of the brilliant French minds go to work in other countries where it's possible to create and operate a company.

[allan_s]

> you have to pay a separate fee (~200eur)

this number is incorrect , or you get fooled, I was working in a startup that was exactly helping people creating companies with the paperwork, including the step you're mentionning, and it was 20 to 30 euros , maybe 50 depending on the journal and option you take

200~300 euros was the price we billed for a startup creation including ALL the paperwork, admnistrative fee, publication fee, and the fact we will review all your documents before submiting them to the french administration and do the follow up with you in case your submission was still denied.

[belzebalex]

One source: https://www.entreprises-et-droit.fr/annonce-legale-creation-...

Maybe did your company have a bulk pricing? Often, companies that offer "registration as a service" have a 200eur fee that excludes that kind of administrative fees. But 30eur for the announcement? Never seen that.

[ohgodplsno]

https://www.economie.gouv.fr/entreprises/publier-annonce-leg...

4,16€ / line.

[yodsanklai]

Your message is full of cliches.

> when you create a company, you have to pay a separate fee (~200eur) to a private "official journal" to publish the fact that you're creating a company.

Irrelevant, it's a ridiculous amount compared to other costs involved in starting a company.

> just check out the ENS's Nobel prize / admissions ratio

This doesn't tell anything about the French education system.

> Most of the brilliant French minds go to work in other countries where it's possible to create and operate a company.

A lot of brillant minds don't have any interest in creating a company. Besides, the world is a big place with many opportunities. Nowadays it's easy to travel and work abroad. A lot of people, brillant or not, leave their country out of curiosity.

As any places, France has good and bad things. Usually, we understand what we miss after living a few years abroad.

[Juliate]

Take business creation & administration. The climate now in France for that is incommensurably better now than it was 20 years ago. The paperwork, the administrative va-et-vient, the relations with the state, insurances, banks, profesionnal networks & helpers, are way faster and leaner now.

And even the startup culture itself, or the social consideration of pursuing one venture, is of course not the same as in the US or in Germany, but it was pretty much non-existent just 15 years ago, compared to what it is now. It's not perfect, because it's young still, but it's here now.

About regulation, per se, it's not a bad thing.

About education... you don't get to judge a system by a single metric, especially not one that pertains only to a very small sample. Not saying it's good/bad/better/worse.

You're 18yo, you have plenty of energy and headroom to discover and create anything, anywhere; what matters is the networks with which you will work, wherever they are.

[keyrat]

I don't know about how the rest of things compare but to put it into perspective for you, in Florida in the USA, you need to pay $400/year to keep your company official. And Florida is considered a relatively easy place to do business.

[jcelerier]

> Yeah, as a French I can only completely agree. The amount of paperwork is just absurd. For instance, when you create a company, you have to pay a separate fee (~200eur) to a private "official journal" to publish the fact that you're creating a company. That's just plain racket, and that kind of things is everywhere.

this is entirely false, it does not cost a cent to get something published to the JO / create a micro-entreprise. source: have one. The only paperwork required is filling a couple internet forms + reporting how much you earned every month, again by internet.

[ohgodplsno]

>France is dying, because France can't have a private sector because of its regulations.

>France is dying to me. As an 18-yo, I'm seriously concerned on what to do for my future. The country has a super good education system (I would easily say the best in the world, by far) (just check out the ENS's Nobel prize / admissions ratio) but has no companies where people do any work. Most of the brilliant French minds go to work in other countries where it's possible to create and operate a company.

You're young, and you are, quite honestly, fully misinformed as to how things work in France. I know it, I live here, I was born here, I work here.

France is at the forefront of airplanes, rockets, AI, has hundreds of startups and old companies. The only places where the private sector cannot exist directly because of regulation are fully justified. Take the upcoming dismantlement of EDF in multiple companies, leaving 35% to the private sector. Handing off electricity distribution to private entities is quite possible the worst thing a country can do. This is an essential service. And so are all the other ones that limit the private sector. Everything else is absolutely fair game, and evidenced day after day. Things like visa applications ? Handled by private companies. URSAFF & Pole Emploi ? Mostly handled by private companies.

So, yes, we have a sizeable public sector. Yes, we have laws that prevent employers from abusing employees. Nothing that prevents you from starting your company, in any sector. It does prevent you from treating employees like shit. Hell, you can become a micro-entrepreneur today if you want.

[belzebalex]

Airplanes? You're right. Rockets? Ariane is being eaten alive by SpaceX, and the bureaucrats won't move fast enough. They can't even agree on Ariane 6. AI: Yeah France's really good at supplying engineers for Facebook. There's a reason why François Chollet and Yann LeCun have fled away.

Old companies in France don't build anything new. Maybe we do have startups, but do we have successful ones?

Concerning your last point, saying that the current 3000-pages laws are just "preventing you from treating people like shit" is a simplification.

[ohgodplsno]

>Ariane is being eaten alive by SpaceX, and the bureaucrats won't move fast enough. They can't even agree on Ariane 6

Arianespace and SpaceX are not even playing in the same court. Ariane 6 is made for heavy payloads, SpaceX can barely lift medium weight satellites.

Yann LeCun? He was literally already studying in Toronto in the 80s, he didn't flee France for Facebook.

As for startups, yes, we do. Are they unicorns? No, because contrary to HN's belief, they're an absolutely awful idea. Hell, I'm working in one, that's raising 5 millions, has clients throughout european countries and serves millions of daily users.

>Concerning your last point, saying that the current 3000-pages laws are just "preventing you from treating people like shit" is a simplification.

No, really, repeating the MEDEF's talking points without even fact checking them makes you look bad. Especially when it comes from Gattaz. 3000 pages includes the legislation AND the reglementation, including every single decree, as well as copies of the main jurisprudences. And the final 400 or so pages are mostly about what corresponds to what between versions of the law.

I literally have a copy of the work code with me. It's a sizeable book, yes. It's not 3000 pages.

However, there is a lot of added complexity because private entities want to add their own set of rules. So, instead of only knowing work law, you also have to know the 180 pages or so of Syntec when you start working in a french company that does IT. enjoy.

[balfirevic]

> Arianespace and SpaceX are not even playing in the same court. Ariane 6 is made for heavy payloads, SpaceX can barely lift medium weight satellites.

Ariane 6, which isn't even flying yet, is projected to lift 10350 kg - 21650 kg to LEO, depending on the version [0].

Falcon Heavy can lift 63800 kg to LEO in expendable mode [1].

You were indeed correct that they are not playing in the same court.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_6

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_Heavy

[ohgodplsno]

SpaceX _pretends_ it can lift 63 tons.

In practice, their payloads have been a few tons at best. Whereas Ariane's track record with Ariane 5 is almost flawless and actually hitting those announced maximums.

But sure, trust the company that has regularly been lying on their abilities :)

[belzebalex]

Seems like you know more about the legal code than I do.

Maybe am I wrong on the root causes. France's leadership in technology is still poor though: all the consumer hardware we use comes from Asia with software coming from the US (I'm sure you can find exceptions to that, and I'm genuinely curious about it), and that's a big problem. The only two french apps I use are the RATP's app and BlaBlaCar once every year.

You can't deny that we're too dependent on key technologies coming from abroad.

[ohgodplsno]

>Seems like you know more about the legal code than I do.

Unfortunately, legal battles with employers tend to cause that :)

> France's leadership in technology is still poor though

This is the root cause. It's not that France is bad technology wise. It's not that France lacks entrepreneurs. It's not that there's rules and laws. We literally have some of the best engineers in the world. Ask SF companies how happy they are to receive french employees. The level of someone coming out of an engineering school in France is much higher than most of the US.

It's that we have a mix of large companies capturing everything (hello Capgemini) and leaders that have no interest in technology (and helping said large comapnies capture everything).

The good news is, you can just wait for those decision makers to die off and we'll be good. By the time you come out of a DUT/Licence or engineering school if you're heading this way, many will be gone. And more will be gone with time.

[user5994461]

France does have a strong defense and aerospace industry indeed. That's maybe the only thing that's still alive and doing well, propped up by military budget and large companies. Military related work is one of the rare domains that can't be externalized.

[mathh]

So ankward to find my stereotypical complaining fellow citizens here on HN.

[ekabod]

not 200 euros. It is around 80 euros.

[raverbashing]

As the other commenter says, and I'll add: I think French people love complaining while continuing on their bubble

A lot of countries have more regulations, but if you complain about every one of them and take it as an obstacle, yeah, really, nothing is going to come out of it.

France is not, by a long shot, the most bureaucratic country in the world. Wow 200eur to open a company? How much does that compare to, I don't know, a yearly salary? Of course it's stupid fee, the US is full of them as well but I don't see people whining.

People in France can't complain that the taxes are high and there's no money when every time some reforms are proposed such and such union goes to protest because god help them if the train conductors don't have high fashion vests right? Or complain about "loss of work rights" like, I don't know, a "right" to a lifetime employment.

[lm28469]

I'm French, French people are blind and most of them have no idea how easy it is to live in France compared to basically any other countries in the world. I guess it's a lack of perspective, anyone who spent any amount of time in eastern europe or in the US (places which aren't even that bad to begin with) would instantly see how lucky they are to live in France.

[jclos]

I hope you do realise that life is so easy because we are always complaining and not in spite of it. Worker rights and social safety nets did not magically appear out of thin air.

[lm28469]

Sure, but what we're seeing here is people complaining the other way: "We pay too much taxes", "there are too many regulations", &c.

[jbn]

This rings true to me, people complain they pay too much taxes, but then go on to rely widely on what the state provides and of course will cry in horror if anything is to be taken away. For instance (and I don't necessarily approve these policies, just stating recent examples) the 5 euro/month decrease in APL subsidy for students, or the cancellation of the CSG exemption for retirees.

[jclos]

Fair enough, in that sense yes I agree that a lot of people don't have a good understanding of the inner workings of their government.

[belzebalex]

I agree with some of that. But we can only live like that in the short term. We're currently China-sponsored: just look at the size of our debt! The 2021 budget is half funded by debt! One day will come when we'll have to make aggressive cuts in our way of life because France won't produce anything anymore.

[ldng]

A state does not work as a company or a home. It is a tad more complicated than that. First the debt is acquired at near 0% interest. Second, most of it is own to Europe not China. Finally, it will very probably be quietly defaulted in a few year and nobody will notice.

[lm28469]

Isn't it the same for most countries though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_...

[dtoma]

I wish we could get some info from an expert on that topic, as a French person some of my friends said they were surprised how much help they got from the government (grants, tax rebates, etc.) and they ended up doing all their software development in France, while the hardware was built in China, because they found the dev quality/cost ratio was so good.

There's also money you can get for creating a startup if you volunteer when your company does a round of layoffs for example.

[opportune]

Is there an easy way to find EU/specific countries’ available grants? Anecdotally I’ve also heard that grants are one of the key advantages to starting a business in the EU

[tasogare]

French here. This is very true. The whole economic incentives are made for big CAC40 companies whose owners/CEO are friends with the lawmakers. The small and medium companies, as individuals, are the most taxed out there. If you own a company and paid yourself you had to pass through 4 layers or so of taxation.

> Financial and investing groups in France are very conservative.

A friend set up a company, like you said having first another job, and it took 3 years IIRC to get a loan from a bank. All its initial money was love money coming from family and friends investors.

[harha]

Same in Germany, unless you hire full time lawyers and accountants you’ll end up burning a lot of money on these services, mistakes they make and all sorts of authorities.

[yodsanklai]

> The amount of taxes a company has to pay and the amount of paperwork to do (or money to delegate it) is just absurd.

Whenever topics on France arise on HN, it's amusing to see many opinionated/politically biased comments from French people.

I personally have no idea on how France compare with other countries as far as startup creation go, but I'd take with a pinch of salt any comments making very strong claims.

[mardifoufs]

It's crazy to see how defensive some people get! Especially when any criticism of EU countries gets brought up. I get that some of the criticism is unwarranted. But as an outsider with intimitate knowledge of both europe (france in particular) and north america, it's just mind boggling to see the difference between the HN/online discourse and reality.

France is an amazing country don't get me wrong, but you can't just sweep everything under the rug just because it has good social safety nets. Living in a place with a strong french diaspora and having tons fo family members living in france, the things I hear the most from them are the grim employment prospects, the lack of opportunities and a hopelessly stagnant economy. And this was before COVID.

Lets also not forget the extreme levels of intergenerational, hard to escape destitution minorities living in the Cités experience that make even america look good when it comes to social mobility for it's minorities. And, while I'm not a fan of the (overused) concept, France has neocolonialism as a foundation of its exploitative african policy. There's also the rampant homophobia, ingrained misogyny, very, very casual racism... you get my point

There are even comments saying, unironically, "if you aren't happy just move instead of complaining". I couldn't imagine that type of argument not getting absolutely destroyed if it was a thread about the US, the UK or Canada. I guess we just hear a lot more coming from english speaking countries, which skew how we view countries we don't hear problems from.

[yodsanklai]

> I couldn't imagine that type of argument not getting absolutely destroyed if it was a thread about the US, the UK or Canada.

I think it's what I was trying to say with my initial comment. The occasional discussions involving US politics seem to be moderated more effectively.

[non-entity]

You're amused to see French people have strong opinions on their own nations' politics?

[yodsanklai]

Being French, I'm amused to see on HN the same stereotyped arguments and exaggerations we hear over and over in the local left/right debate.

[Juliate]

Well, we're not French for nothing. :p

[laurent92]

Tax data for a SASU company:

- 20% VAT on revenue,

- then, after your marginal costs:

- Either distribute as dividends. IS is 15% to 30% of profit, then long story short with CSG, there is a 17% tax,

- Either distribute as salary to employees: 46% as taxes/contributions,

- In either case, dividends or salaries, we have to pay 0% to 45% income tax, averaging at 10-15% of our incomes.

Don’t forget mandatory paperwork (lodging accounting documents yearly) + an accountant because you won’t understand how to lodge the paperwork. In total, if you had only mandatory charges + VAT + CET (city tax assuming you have no office) + IS + CSG + Income tax, for 100k revenue distributed 100% as dividends, you’ll have 51,325€;

If you distribute 100% as your own salary, you’ll get 39.285€.

[vladvasiliu]

Although your calculation isn't quite correct (see below), non-French people should note something related to the way taxes are perceived to be in France and especially related to social security. As a freelance going with this scheme, you get basically nothing:

* You only have the basic, state social security (the 17% part OP talks about). This basically only covers you for emergency situations. There's tons to pay out of pocket in case of pretty much anything (hospital stays, glasses, teeth work, etc). This is usually covered by a complementary insurance, usually paid for by the employer (mutuelle). Private people can subscribe to it, but it costs extra.

* You do not contribute to any retirement. If you only do this for your whole life, at the end, you will only get the absolute minimum retirement (which is ridiculous).

* You do not get unemployment in case your business fails.

* In case of accident that prevents you from working (say car crash and you end up paralyzed or something) you're SoL. A "regular employee" (especially engineer level) could have an insurance covering this. In the situation described here, you'd have to pay extra or not get any money anymore.

All this is to say that for all the taxes paid (almost 50% !) you get pretty much... nothing. I'm curious how this compares to other countries with lower taxes where you're expected to pay for insurance out of pocket.

There's also another fun fact: once you have your 50k in hand after having paid the other 50k to the state, it doesn't stop there! Want to go buy something? The state would love you to, they get 20% out of that too!

I'd be curious to see a similar breakdown for the US in particular, where people usually say that for the higher salaries you have to pay more for healthcare. Maybe the extra insurance is much more expensive over there, don't know.

---

Parent's error is you don't count the VAT in the revenue. It's invoiced on top of it and it goes back to the state directly. Also, if you have 100K in yearly revenue, it's not a good deal to pay regular income tax on that, the 30% flat rate is more advantageous.

All in all, your 100% dividend works out to 53869 which is a roughly 5% increase over their estimate.

[mrep]

Healthcare is quite variable in the states. I for example have good insurance with my job so I have a max out of pocket spending limit of $2500 per year and I can also put $3500 per year of pre-income tax money into a health savings account (HSA) to use for healthcare spending so it's a total non-issue for me. The people that really get hosed are usually the ones that don't get it through a job such as if you are self-employed and those plans can run over 10000 a year and have really high deductibles.

As for the income tax wedge, between federal income taxes, social security, and medicare mine was about 27% on 221k income as a single person with no kids. It helps that I was in washington which has no state income tax and sales tax was about 10% there if you were curious.

edit: forgot state unemployment insurance which ranges from .2% to near 6% depending on the number of claims.

[julienfr112]

Yes, default rates are quite high in France, but there are also subsides : JEI (jeune entreprise innovante), CIR (credit impot recherche) and CII (crédit impot innovation) and surrely others that can give you back a huge part of the taxes you pay. It's a PITA to fill, it keeps civil servants busy but hey, it can bring you tax and cotisations sociales (retirement / health) very low !!

[doukdouk]

All this feels so wasteful, especially the CIR and formerly the CICE. Instead of having low taxes, you have nominally high taxes and a bazillion paperwork-heavy to make them low. Might as well just make them low in the first place.

[realusername]

Yeah that's my point of view as well on the French system, going after tax exemptions is almost a full time job since there are so many of them. And of course the companies who end up benefiting from those are most often the least deserving...

[harha]

I like the way Singapore keeps it simple by having tax exemptions and lower rates for the first $ X of income (and overall lower tax than most places in Europe), this is easy to work with and allows you to reinvest in ways you see fit rather than having to deal with a bunch of other entities from advisors to government agencies that all have their own agenda.

Edit: corporate income that is.

[refurb]

I love how Singapore’s income tax calculator fits on a single page in excel.

https://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/uploadedFiles/IRASHome/Indi...

[harha]

Compare that to Germany. There’s a company (datev) that has a monopoly on SMB accounting and will only work with tax advisors. Complete waste of labor and money, all because taxation rules are so complicated.

[belzebalex]

Typical bureaucratic mess. Completely unmanageable by normal humans. It's as if the law is made super complicated just to give a job to lawyers.

[ttoinou]

Reducing taxes is not a subsidy...

[hrktb]

> otherwise literally more than half of the salary is gone in taxes.

That's par for the course. Is there many countries where companies can get away with paying much less (including employee health insurance, retirement etc.) ?

[raverbashing]

> The amount of taxes a company has to pay and the amount of paperwork to do (or money to delegate it) is just absurd.

How much are taxes if you live in SF again? Or NY?

> is having all employees as associates... otherwise literally more than half of the salary is gone in taxes

The income tax rates in France in 2020 are as follows: Up to €10,064: 0% €10,064–€25,659: 11% €25,659–€73,369: 30% €73,369–€157,806: 41% €157,806+: 45%

Source https://www.expatica.com/fr/finance/taxes/a-guide-to-taxes-i...

+ social fees, so for a salary of 100k you're getting back 65k approximately https://taxleak.com/france/?salary=100000 (though yes the employer needs to add some more to this value)

[js4ever]

You are taking account only of 1 of the gazillion taxes you have to pay in france, this one is only the employee part. Also the net amount in the employee pocket is way lower than this after medicare and unemployment mandatory taxes contributions (roughly 10 to 25% of salary). On his side, the employer have to pay in total something like 80% in additional taxes on the amount paid to the employee. That also explain why salaries are lower in France compared to other top 10 countries.

Source: until last year I had a company in France with several employees.

[raverbashing]

Can't disagree with you on that. Delegating to accountants make more sense usually.

[Uberphallus]

For a salary of 100k, the company pays beyond 200k. Many social charges are on the company.

My salary isn't that high, but after taxes, both on me and the company, I get about 1/3 of what the company pays for me overall.

[raverbashing]

True the expatica link touches on that point, I'm not sure how much is employee paid in other countries (and it can vary depending on how the company is established)

It definitely makes sense to avoid it as much as you can (but it is a fee not unique to France)

[nix23]

> €157,806+: 45%

That's the problem you see?

[Qiu_Zhanxuan]

reality check, 120k€/year already puts you in the top 1% of income earner in France. Past this point you should be satisfied with how much you've already earned and maybe starts caring more about the impact your job/company should have...

[nix23]

>reality check

After taxes it's 80k which is NOT allot outside France (not even paris) and you are in the high-income class, you see when you want good people you have to pay them the right amount of money so they can pay everywhere for a good life. It's like saying, but 20$ a day is a perfect income for Morocco, why don't we have the best tech peoples around??

[Qiu_Zhanxuan]

sigh... I assure you the top 1% earner of a high income per capita country enjoys a very high standard of living. A net income of 120k/y leaves with you with a real income of 94_080€/y (see sibling comment) or ~7840€/month when you're single. You'll have no problem renting a 30 sqm² for 1000€/month in a beautiful neighborhood in the center of Paris. Money isn't the problem, your "best tech people" are just too greedy.

And frankly, the recent backlash against big tech in relation to the ever rising compensation of SV people depicts a dark portrait of the "best tech people" around. This has more to say about the lack of moral standards in the industry than about the lack of incentives of the European Startups Ecosystems...

[kanwisher]

So your in top 1% of salaries and you are suggesting a 30sqm apartment is good? That’s a tiny box for a “top” income earner

[ldng]

Double downing on the reality check, 120k€/year is the top 1% of income earner in the vast majority of the World taking into account healthcare, retirement and education.

[literallycancer]

The price of new dwellings in Paris is 12863 EUR per square meter. How can you be satisfied with what you have earned when you still have to take a 20 year mortgage to get a decent home?

[raverbashing]

UK rates for comparison

Personal Allowance Up to £12,500 0%

Basic rate £12,501 to £50,000 20%

Higher rate £50,001 to £150,000 40%

Additional rate over £150,000 45%

https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates

[mjohn]

That's a bit of a simplification.

From £9.5k to £50k you pay 12% national insurance in addition to income tax, so it's really 32% not 20% tax.

Over £50k you pay 2% national insurance.

Your employer will also be paying 13.8% national insurance.

Once your income exceeds £100k you start losing your personal allowance at a rate of £1 for every £2 over £100k, so you have no personal allowance after earning over £125k. This means that your effective marginal tax rate between £100k & £125k is about 60%

[doukdouk]

I don't think such calculations are particularly useful, maybe about as much as Paul Graham's wealth tax "model". The reason is that tax codes are way more complicated than just nominal tax rates.

Did you know, for instance, that you taxable income is 90% of your real income [0]? So the 45% rate kicks in at a 175,340€ wage, not actually 157,806€.

Anyway, it does not matter because of the unusually large income splitting [1]. If both adults have a 157,806€ wage and say, two kids, the total income would be 315,612 with three fiscal shares, and thus would pay 3 times the amount of taxes owed for a 315,612/3 income (i.e. 105204€), where the marginal tax rate is 30%, not 45% [2].

Anyway, it does not matter either because the main income tax in France is not the "income tax", but the "generalized social contribution" (flat rate).

My point is not to write an essay on French taxation, but to show that simply comparing tax brackets and rates is useless, since the definition of "taxable income" is not the same between different countries, how brackets, rates and taxable income are used to actually compute the tax amount is not straightforward, there are many others taxes, and so forth.

[0] https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/particulier/questions/com...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_splitting

[2] Amount of tax is number of n T(i/n), where i is income, T is the function which maps income to taxes owed and n is the number of fiscal shares. Because T is convex, n T(i/n) is less than T(i).

[ciconia]

Why should a startup get a better deal than an independent plumber, or a farmer? You pay your taxes like everybody else, and in return you get a more level playing ground, more solidarity, and a safety net in case you fail... (I'm also living in France).

[908B64B197]

Because one of them scale and can be exported and the other doesn't?

Also if a startup ends up getting VC funding in an other country it can move there unlike a farm or a plumbing business.

[_0qft]

You're right, but one part of this is the cost of wealth redistribution. There is less social inequality in france than in the US. Healthcare and welfare are comfortable here. You have less problems of social inequality in general.

In france, another problem is that some medium/higher social classes tend to capture publicly paid jobs. That's another problem too that needs to be tackled.

In my view, it's a choice of how a country decides to allocate its resources: not letting people live in awful conditions and work 3 jobs, or having trillion dollar companies make money on the technology developed on the back of DARPA something like 50 years ago.

It's easy to criticize an entire country for its "policy on tech", but it's important to not forget about tax optimization, which is another part of the problem. France does have a lot of good scientists too, build aircraft and is a nuclear power. I'm sorry to say that generally, the silicon valley VC aura is VERY OFTEN filled with libertarians who have zero clues about how poor people are "managed", and the reality of social inequality. It's a entirely different culture. France saw a socialist president in the 70s through the 80s, who had tough words against capitalism. You cannot dismiss political history.

Just my 50 cents, I really wanted to bring some nuance. All countries have their own political problems.

And to be clear: I'm poor and live in a 18 square meters, and would love to be silicon valley rich and make 80k per year. But I would also take resources from other people who don't have the education I have.

[908B64B197]

The French model of high taxes that can potentially be offset by subsidies and grants is an interesting one. I've heard stories of companies getting an employee early on who's sole purpose was applying for these grants and subsidies.

Now, I think the one issue the French (and really European) tech sphere should tackle is low salaries for engineers. France has stellar engineering schools but lose so much talent because local companies are simply unwilling to match the international offers their graduates are getting. That brain drain erodes the talent pool and make the tech scene less attractive in the long run.

[jobigoud]

I can confirm. At my previous job we were about 20 employees and we had one person dedicated to this. Grants for R&D, so her work was to make the paperwork explaining and documenting why it was R&D. Also there was another gov help to pay half the salary of employees for which it was the first job after their thesis or something along these lines.

[908B64B197]

Wow. The inefficiency of having to dedicate an employees to that paperwork (and probably the same manpower on the government side to receive it and take action) make it sounds like a welfare/job program.

Would be way more efficient to simply drop the tax rate and make these 2 positions redundant, freeing more money for actual R&D.

The post-thesis bit is interesting: How is it the taxpayer's job to finance that? I get funding the thesis themselves but why should a company get funding for hiring someone who completed one? Shouldn't the thesis make the employee more valuable thus negating the need for this welfare?

[jobigoud]

Also she was conducting "interviews" with us to assess better what was and what wasn't R&D in our tasks, so once in a while we would spend an hour not doing any productive work.

Yes post-thesis are more valuable, including to other countries. I think it is an incentive to the employer so they can increase the compensation in order to limit brain drain.

[smonff]

Not worth mentioning that health care is free for everyone in france thanks to all the money employees "steal" from startup founders.

[NicoJuicy]

> The only way a small tech company can make any money and be sustainable

Counter argument: A lot of startups in the US that IPO'd and still don't earn money is absurd as well

[ldng]

Yet hundreds of companies are created every year.

You just illustrate the tipical French mentality ingrained by media all year long. A comment full of cliché. If France is so bad, move out. You'll learn a thing or two in the process. Beginning with the grass is not always greener elsewhere.

[dang]

> A comment full of cliché. If France is so bad, move out.

Please don't do nationalistic flamewar like this on HN. (This also is a cliché, and a nasty one.)

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[ldng]

It was not meant as nationalistic. But point taken, it can read across that way.

[Uberphallus]

Yet hundreds of companies die, too.

> You just illustrate the tipical French mentality ingrained by media all year long.

Living in France for 8 years and creating 2 companies doesn't seem to count, eh? Now I have my companies elsewhere in Europe and just pay my taxes on the revenues in France, only not to deal with the bureaucratic overhead.

> If France is so bad, move out.

The chauvinism is strong in this one. I'm in France, because I like things here. But startup culture isn't one of them. Why take criticism of a country's policy personally?

If you love your country try to fix it, don't suggest people who complain to leave.

> You'll learn a thing or two in the process.

I'm sure I would. I mean, I've done it.

[lm28469]

> because I like things here

Do you think it would stay the same without all the regulations you love to hate ?

You can't complain about paying taxes and at the same time say you love France, 80% of the things that makes France a good country to live in are financed by taxes one way or another. Just look over the pond if you want to see how France would look without regulations, 1930 France is today's US in term of workers rights and social security. I'm sure it's perfect if you're in the top 15%, not so much otherwise

[vladvasiliu]

It's not an all or nothing situation. GP is likely not opposed to each and every regulation and would like to see them all, 100%, go.

They pay taxes in France, it's only natural to want to have a say in how this money is spent. Complaining against the way things are doesn't mean that they would want each and every regulation repealed and switch completely to the way things are "over the pond". It could, it probably doesn't. They probably would have gone over the pond if it were the case.

[Juliate]

> The chauvinism is strong in this one. I'm in France, because I like things here. But startup culture isn't one of them.

I think this depends a lot on where you are, and who you connect to, and whose judgement you value too.

The mood felt very different to me between Paris intramuros, Paris suburb, Nantes, Bordeaux, Sophia, and even in each location, there are coexisting networks (installed businesses, "web" startups, industry ones, "marketing" ones, etc.) with different aims/cultures.

[ldng]

> Yet hundreds of companies die, too.

Like everywhere in the world.

I do not mind argumented criticism. But you are making broad subjectives statements that we ear ALL the time. If France was such an hostile place to business, it would not be the 7th largest economy in the world (2019).

>> If France is so bad, move out. > The chauvinism is strong in this one.

I could answer in bad faith that cultural imperial is also strong and that one need to learn the culture of the country one lives in as they will not find "silicon valley" culutre everywhere.

But really it was not my point. My point is I'm fed up with people painting such a dark picture of France. Most of the critism are way too often resumed to, I want the cake and eat it too, the quality of life but not the bureaucracy and taxes. It gets old fast.

> > You'll learn a thing or two in the process. > I'm sure I would. I mean, I've done it.

And it looks like you even pick up the French national sport I'm no stranger to: whining. (tone: light hearted joke, not personal attack to be clear)

[larrysalibra]

> If France is so bad, move out. You'll learn a thing or two in the process. Beginning with the grass is not always greener elsewhere.

They do move out! I'm in Hong Kong and we're lucky to have 10s of thousands of French people that were frustrated with the business environment in France and moved to Hong Kong. They start businesses from restaurants to crypto currency exchanges. It's really great having them (and other immigrants around).

I encourage France to continue whatever policies they have that encourage their best and brightest to head for places that treat them better.

[dudul]

> If France is so bad, move out

Be careful what you wish for, because "they" are indeed moving out. Human capital flight is a very real problem in France.

[ldng]

As granted elsewhere in the thread, it is poorly worded. But it is fine to go. But then count those who move back.

That said, reality is lot of businesses have moved in since Brexit, despite supposed overwhelming bureaucracy.

Maybe the truth is elsewhere and much more complicated than broad blanket statements and politically biased myths that keep spreading.