[obiye]

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

[hyperman1]

I recently learned some about the Chinese vision: China aspires to long-term stability first.

China had in its past times where the country's internal organization broke down, resulting in famine, ... Lots of people died.

As a result, Confucianism has risen: A vision where individual freedom is seen as a danger to that internal organization. Hence, it should be tempered by strict loyalty to the family, with the whole China being a sort of extended family. The elders and superiors should be obeyed, not necessarily because they are better people, but because this represents stability. In turn, these elders and superiors should be better people, with traits as benevolence,integrity and righteousness.

I am happy I live in Europe, not China, but looking at the state of most western democracy's today, I can have some understanding for this vision.

[ksec]

Um....

There were hundred of other thoughts at the time and Confucianism hasn't risen. Confucianism was used as a tool to solidify the power within the Empire. The only thing you will do is kneel and obey.

And China aspires to long-term stability first is not about China in itself, but the long term control of power. Which for thousands of years has proved what should now be a famous line, Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.

[justicezyx]

I cannot help to ask: what are your background on Chinese history? What do you recommend for an overview on Confucius?

You seem articulate thousands of years of history, and one of the most ancient philosophy and culture system, and it’s impact in so few words that I dare not to challenge - because, as a Chinese myself, I never gained enough understanding on Confucius, and had no capacity to summarize its impact or origin to even fellow Chinese friends.

In the end, I doubt your credential as a competent commentator on such a complicated topic.

But I have no intellectual capacity to either endorse or deny your statement.

[TheGallopedHigh]

A great new-ish podcast is: The Fall of Civilizations Podcast. They have one on the Han dynasty, the first in China’s history. Worth a listen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U9W7cOMGXyA

[baybal2]

When I see Americans talking about confucianism, I want to laught.

You got it all wrong.

What you say makes no sense to a Chinese not in its literal, or proverbial sense, and talk like these usually get grannies pointing finger to foreigners on the bus, quietly giggling "oh, those foreigners thinking something on China again..."

[hyperman1]

OK fair enough. I am no American, BTW, and every culture talking about every other culture has this problem, in both ways.

Now I do see a fairly negative response here, without anything to replace it. So make us all on hacker news one of the lucky 10 000 today: What does China aspire to? What are the overarching themes in the Chinese view of the world, and how do they differ from the Western ones?

I recently learned some about the Chinese vision. If it's wrong, I'd like to learn something more.

[andor]

Can you give a better explanation?

[baybal2]

> Can you give a better explanation?

1. 99% regular Chinese citizens can't give more .... about what some ancient philosopher wrote. They have more important things to care, like earning a living. It is like telling that most Americans are... Aristotelians because few of them were of Greek extraction (even when their descendants today cannot say a word in Greek...)

2. Chinese culture was not formed by ancient dictums. The culture of China was razed with fire in seventies, and rebuilt from blank sheet. The level of "culture" of a regular citizen was reduced to just being able to read, and write, and even that was not a given.

And even before the revolution, Chinese culture people knew had zero things in common to what these people think. The man would be laughed out not only by grannies on the bus today, but equally so a century ago.

3. If there is any cultural imprint on China at all, it would be Russia. Chinese north of Shanghai are effectively indistinguishable by what is in their head from most Russians, other than them speaking Chinese.

Only a more rural, impassable, and much less well off Southern China managed to preserve few vestiges of what China was before the revolution.

To most Chinese citizens, a travel to HK, or Taiwan is a giant cultural shock. It is because them suddenly realising themselves being so much less Chinese than they though they were.

[PakG1]

> To most Chinese citizens, a travel to HK, or Taiwan is a giant cultural shock. It is because them suddenly realising themselves being so much less Chinese than they though they were.

Given that I know a lot of both Hong Kong people and mainland Chinese people, I am really not sure from where you're getting this idea.

[_m8pt]

As a Chinese person from north of Shanghai, what in the world do you mean by “indistinguishable by what is in their head from most Russians”????

[baybal2]

Similar in what their attitudes are to so many things in life. Thoughts on having a family, marriage, treatment of women, ideas on social status, work, career, material wellbeing, and down to things like hobbies, and free time spending. And their tourists... especially northeastern ones...

Everything within cultural gravity of Beijing, and Northeast has been molded very early in history of PRC, and was pretty much an attempt to copy USSR 1-to-1 before Mao cut ties.

[spyckie2]

There's a theory (known as rice culture theory) that states that rice farming requires cooperation from your neighbors to farm successfully, which solidified a culture of collective values. Wheat, the Western staple, has no such requirements.

If you depended on your neighbor's cooperation, the ideals of Confucianism help the village survive.

If your neighbors were like the Americans who refuse to put on a mask, your whole village would starve to death within the generation. The theory explains why individualism was suppressed and collective values so uplifted in Chinese culture.

[yorwba]

Confucius was born in what is now Shandong province, which is far enough north to be not very suitable for rice production. The most important crop is wheat. The southern provinces where rice is more common weren't even part of the Chinese cultural sphere at the time.

The theory doesn't explain anything, since it doesn't even get the agricultural facts right.

[spyckie2]

sorry if I explained it poorly. Here's an article about it.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/05/08/310477497/ri...

[koonsolo]

Russia takes care of Russia, China takes care of China, and well, US takes care of US, but acts as if they take care of the world.

US foreign policy is meant to improve US. If you don't agree, please give me an example where they wanted to "spread democracy" without any personal gain.

And I'm perfectly fine here in EU thank you very much.

[simonh]

You can look at it that way sure. The USA benefits from global stability and trade, but don't pretend the USA's trading and defence partners don't benefit as well. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.

In contrast, how many countries have that sort of relationship with Russia or China? You could argue Syria has benefited from Russian patronage, but in reality Russia doesn't care at all about Syria, only it's base in Tartus. China has no regional allies whatsoever.

The key difference is that the USA has a reputation to protect. It has so many allies, both military and economic, that if it sells out one of them for purely transactional gain, it weakens it's relationships with all it's other partners.

[koonsolo]

> The key difference is that the USA has a reputation to protect. It has so many allies, both military and economic, that if it sells out one of them for purely transactional gain, it weakens it's relationships with all it's other partners.

You do know about the industrial espionage by Echelon, right? On that front that pretty much puts US in the same bucket as China.

Only 1 example of many:

"In 1999, Enercon, a German company and leading manufacturer of wind energy equipment, developed a breakthrough generator for wind turbines. After applying for a US patent, it had learned that Kenetech, an American rival, had submitted an almost identical patent application shortly before. By the statement of a former NSA employee, it was later discovered that the NSA had secretly intercepted and monitored Enercon's data communications and conference calls and passed information regarding the new generator to Kenetech.[71] As German intelligence services are forbidden from engaging in industrial or economic espionage, German companies are frequently complaining that this leaves them defenceless against industrial espionage from the United States."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...

[simonh]

Yes I know about it. Allies have always engaged in snooping and peripheral intelligence operations against each other. As long as it doesn’t go after vital national interests, or involve really nasty stuff like killings and such, it’s just part of the rough and tumble of international affairs. You have to look at the full picture, not get hung up over single incidents.

Note German intelligence wasn’t so much complaining that the Americans did it, as much as that they weren’t allowed to do it back.

[koonsolo]

> Allies have always engaged in snooping and peripheral intelligence operations against each other.

EU doesn't use their secret intelligence against allies for economical gain, US clearly does.

[boomboomsubban]

>but don't pretend the USA's trading and defence partners don't benefit as well. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.

How has Iraq benefited? What benefit do the people of Saudi Arabia see from our relationship? How many of the US led South American regime changes have benefitted the populace?

>It has so many allies, both military and economic, that if it sells out one of them for purely transactional gain, it weakens it's relationships with all it's other partners.

We sell them out constantly. None of those "partners" have other options. Working against the US means most of the world refusing to interact with you, or a regime change on the horizon.

[simonh]

Iraq are our allies against ISIS, they did most of the actual on the ground fighting. Saudi Arabia was terrified Saddam would attack them next, and we now know that was his intended next move after a Kuwait. Also the US is the prime obstacle to Iranian operations against the Saudis. SA spends big on defence, but they’re hopelessly inexperienced, while Iran has plenty of military experience from the wars with a Iraq and operations in Syria. They may look under equipped on paper, but they’d eat SA for breakfast in an actual conflict.

America’s efforts at regime change in the America’s are an appalling catalogue of screwups and bloody disasters. No argument there.

But then NATO has been a useful and very effective alliance, effectively keeping Russia in check. Ask the Baltic States or the Eastern European states how they feel about it. We’ve had setbacks like Ukraine, but boy it could have been a _lot_ worse. Taiwan, South Korea, the Philippines and Japan have benefited hugely. Even Vietnam is now becoming a regional ally.

[boomboomsubban]

>Iraq are our allies against ISIS, they did most of the actual on the ground fighting.

ISIS exists because of US action, they are not benefitting from this.

>Saudi Arabia was terrified Saddam would attack them next, and we now know that was his intended next move after a Kuwait.

Not only is this just untrue, Saddam Hussein discussed the invasion of Kuwait with the US before the invasion, our deployment of troops in Saudi Arabia stemming from that event has caused numerous problems for the people of the country.

>Also the US is the prime obstacle to Iranian operations against the Saudis

Though I'm not sure how the citizens of Saudi Arabia are benefitting from this in your version of events, the Saudi troops should be well trained from their ongoing war in Yemen.

>But then NATO has been a useful and very effective alliance, effectively keeping Russia in check. Ask the Baltic States or the Eastern European states how they feel about it

On the other hand, NATO encroachment could be blamed for much of Russia's aggression. Crimea lasted twenty years under Ukrainian control after all, but would NATO continue letting Russia access it's Black Sea port?

[kevin_thibedeau]

You can thank us later for fixing that Milosevic problem that the EU should have dealt with itself.

[sudhebern]

Shh, HN is super pro EU. You're not allowed to point out that nobody cares about them outside of trade.

[fiblye]

>Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals.

This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something?

[baybal2]

> This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something?

As a person who spend near half of my life in both of them, I don't see the statement being far from reality.

Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades.

I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a long term plan for their countries, nor having an idea where they are going themselves.

Just like an airplane on autopilot will fly aimlessly until it runs out of fuel, or runs into a mountain, both Xi, and Putin just want their systems to last as much as they can, and if they need to invade few countries to sate primal urges of their polities, they think "so be it"

[fiblye]

I don't know enough about Russia to speak about it, but China's goals are pretty clear. They're aiming to raise the standard of living in China massively, working towards one united and uniform Chinese cultural identity, and spreading Chinese culture around the world through economic and social means. Another big one is trying to earn China respect as a nation and undoing the reputation of being poor, dirty, and being an exporter of junk, and one big way they're aiming for that is through tech exports and scientific research.

The government has clear ideals. The problem is the ways they're going about achieving them and whether some of them (like erasing the separate cultures within their borders) is justifiable.

[baybal2]

> They're aiming to raise the standard of living in China massively

Haha

> working towards one united and uniform Chinese cultural identity,

Haha

Ask any middle class Chinese citizen earning his cup of rice. If you really believe that, lots of Chinese grannies are laughing at you now.

[fiblye]

Ask any Chinese person whether the quality of life is better now than 5 years ago, and they'll say yes. Ask them if it's better than 10 years ago and they'll say of course. Ask a grandma if it's better than 50 years ago, and she'll think you're insane for even doubting that it's better. People have trains, food, houses, and smartphones as a baseline with many taking international trips. A couple decades ago, China was incredibly poor. Their modern lifestyle was unimaginable, which is why the CCP has no trouble maintaining stability.

And China is chipping away at its various cultures and pushing for one Mandarin-speaking Han identity and achieving that goal quite quickly.

I have no clue what point you're trying to make.

[arcticbull]

It's crazy that at the time of the handover, Hong Kong accounted for about 20% of China's GDP. Today, it's just 2.7%

[baybal2]

I can call ten Chinese citizens now, of all walk of life, including non rank holding CPC member, and small time public servants. They will laugh you out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ6UuF85ENA

[ric2b]

> Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades.

> I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a long term plan for their countries, nor having an idea where they are going themselves.

I could say the same about the US.

[baybal2]

This is the world we live in today

[eximius]

Fine, they aspire to power and resources. Is that better?

[obiye]

Their “ideals” are more land and more power for themselves. That is their publicly stated ambition. That is what is ridiculous.

[yoav]

The US is an oppressive surveillance state with regular police murdering minorities, rampant white supremacy, and when not in the middle of catastrophically mishandling a pandemic, has a mass shooting every day of the year.

To most people outside the US’s branding sway there’s very little difference between a USA and a Russia or China

[almost_usual]

Also a country where millions of people from different backgrounds, religions, and races will unite and march for the justice of minorities. Will outright challenge authority in the street and march until negotiations are made during a pandemic.

This does not happen in China or Russia.

[Barrin92]

>where millions of people from different backgrounds, religions, and races will unite and march for the justice of minorities

but mostly to act it out as performance art because people have been marching for decades now and yet here we are. The US is the only country that kind of lives in a permanent television version of itself, with people setting trashcans on fire for justice or throwing a window in, while a few dozen journalists capture some very authentic images[1]

People in Russia or China are realistic enough to know that this is in itself nothing but entertainment. The US is in a sense the most advanced security state on the planet, because pretty much nobody else has manged to internalize its own opposition to that degree.

[1]https://i.redd.it/xqrhsj17wb321.jpg

[yoav]

Millions of people risking their lives to beg the government to stop murdering people and police engaging in widespread violent crackdown against those people demonstrating is exactly what happens in those countries.

I don’t know how systematic police murder and beating up peaceful protestors looks different to you when it happens in the US and when it happens elsewhere.

What is it about the anthem or flag that makes you see it differently?

Look at Hong Kong protests, then look at police beating people in cities across the US it’s the same.

What are the concessions from the US government? A few minor police reforms to encourage cops to stop killing minorities on camera, qualified immunity is still here, so basically nothing.

At least China and Russia consider healthcare a human right like any developed country. The US health care system is depraved.

[hkmaxpro]

> Look at Hong Kong protests, then look at police beating people in cities across the US it’s the same.

> What are the concessions from the US government? A few minor police reforms to encourage cops to stop killing minorities on camera, qualified immunity is still here, so basically nothing.

US’s reaction is hugely different than HK’s.

Not a single HK cop was actually penalized, let alone fired or charged, for their misconducts during the year long protests. The only HK cop that was charged was the one who posted posters criticizing the police force. [1]

By contrast, numerous US cops were fired and charged. Not to mention two weeks before George Floyd was killed, a South Asian was also killed by HK cops by kneeing on his neck. [2] The victim’s name wasn’t made public, not a single HK cop was penalized, and they went on to keep doing the same to HK protesters a month later (no casualty this time) [3].

Disbanding the HK police is one of the core demands of Hong Kong protesters [4]. While US has made some police reforms, nothing like this happened in Hong Kong, except HK police just got more powerful under the new National Security Law.

And you tell me US is the same as HK?

[1] http://www.rfi.fr/tw/%E6%94%BF%E6%B2%BB/20200118-%E4%BC%91%E... (in Chinese)

[2] https://www.hk01.com/%E7%AA%81%E7%99%BC/471390/%E9%9D%9E%E8%... (in Chinese)

[3] https://hongkongfp.com/2020/06/15/i-couldnt-breathe-hong-kon...

[4] https://news.ltn.com.tw/news/world/breakingnews/2925727 (in Chinese)

[yoav]

For every cop held accountable there are hundreds more committing the same crimes who are protected by the state. While cell phones are a new invention where the protected class in the US is now seeing the oppression that many citizens have been living with, it’s not new. The state has known the whole time and intentionally hidden it.

Doing the bare minimum is just PR, eg: cops kneeling with protestors and then an hour later using chemical weapons and beating on the same peaceful protestors.

If the distinction is: China addresses challenges to oppression with censorship while the US addresses it with marketing and ineffectual “concessions” then we’re saying the same thing.

[hkmaxpro]

Please see my reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23695111

[boomboomsubban]

>And you tell me US is the same as HK?

You are comparing what happened in one city against what happened across the entire country. Look at the actions of the NYPD during these protests. They have also received virtually no punishment despite their range of heinous acts.

An occasional incident nationwide that drives up enough outrage to force a punishment doesn't grant us some moral high ground.

[hkmaxpro]

The parent comment compared the US to HK, so did I.

Now I just focus on NYPD: NYPD charged an officer for using a chokehold. [1]

No officer was charged in HK after the year long protests for their misconducts and brutality.

Side note: Numerous HK protesters were also victims of sexual harassment or sexual violence during arrest or detention. A 19-year-old girl was gangraped by police officers in a police station and got pregnant, and the police threatened to arrest her for “making false statements”. She defended her claims and had to flee to Taiwan. [2][3]

Any similar incident in NYC?

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/25/nyregion/nypd-officer-cho...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ3-OZaEcCA

[3] https://hongkongfp.com/2020/05/13/hong-kong-woman-who-accuse...

[raverbashing]

Some people really need to step out of their bubble and go see what it really is out there.

Not saying the US doesn't have problems, but this laundry list is mild for let's say 70% of the world's population.

And to be fair the "woke" press (including some national "unbiased" news sources) just make the problem worse.

But I guess the grass is always greener

> To most people outside the US’s branding sway there’s very little difference between a USA and a Russia or China

Only if they ignore how things happen on this countries or is sheltered.

Now, about "mishandling a pandemic", yes, it could have been done better, but I think a lot of countries are not handling it better, they just didn't get the check yet and/or are putting the problem under the table.

[creato]

Would you rather live in North Korea or South Korea? Hong Kong or Taiwan? West Germany or East Germany?

[obiye]

Right. That’s why millions of people clamor every year to immigrate to Russia for a better life. Get a grip. The world is not black and white.

[freeone3000]

Here's immigration stats for Russia: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/RUS/russia/immigration....

Of course millions are clamoring to immigrate to Russia for a better life - it's a rich, stable country!

[_-___________-_]

> That’s why millions of people clamor every year to immigrate to Russia for a better life

They literally do.

[tanilama]

> Russia and China aspire to nothing.

Not really.

Russia and China aspires to protect their perceived sovereignty. That is probably the most fundamental political ideal.

Also, China doesn't really treat HK as 'foreign'.

Last but not least, in a post-COVID world, I can't really say that US is even better for your physical well-being among the choices.

[baybal2]

I think, you need to read some history books... preferably Chinese, or Russian.

For most people from the West, the political thinking of people in power here is almost martian.

Both Russia, and China spent a big chunk of their history under foreign occupation, and the occupation it was very savage, and brutal. How do you reconcile your imperial ambitions with understanding that your global superpower polity began its existence as a country of a slave?

How do you live as a big man you tell you are when your driving impulse is a preoccupation with your vulnerabilities, and your identity as a power holder being that of an enemy to your own people, having to server as a tributary, or vassal lord to some Hun/Mongol/Tatar/Manchu khan on your own home soil?

This is the reason of immense insecurity of ego, and character you see there through the history. And that cutthroat, survivalist attitude is also because of that. And the incessant urges to do chest trumping, and prove themselves are also because of that.

[tanilama]

> China spent a big chunk of their history under foreign occupation

Not true. Most of Chinese history is under a unified regime. The years between 1850-1950 is an outlier in Chinese history.

I don't see China's actions here as insecure. HK never really has a chance to be separate from China, that is just its geopolitical destiny. It is more like Xi or CCP's assertion than vulnerability that leads to this legislation. It is the classical Asian parenting techniques, just manifest at a much larger scale.

BTW: I do read Chinese history books, and in Chinese. :)

[the_dune_13]

"Both Russia, and China spent a big chunk of their history under foreign occupation" What's the Russian's big chunk? "having to server as a tributary, or vassal lord to some Hun/Mongol/Tatar/Manchu khan on your own home soil?" Didn't Grand Duchy of Muscovy predecessors come to existence thanks to alliance with Golden Horde?

[baybal2]

Yes, they had an alliance in a manner of vassalage in exchange for khan's troops.

It was basically the khan saying them "I will back you if you submit a bigger chunk of Russian land to me"

It was like that with Mongols, and many other foreign invaders before, and after them. Both by Muscovy, and by duchies apposing it.

[thaumasiotes]

> Also, China doesn't really treat HK as 'foreign'.

Depends what you mean by "treat it as foreign". It's under a different legal system, it has its own currency, and migration between China and Hong Kong is controlled. If you enter China on a single-entry visa, you won't be able to get back in (without a new visa) after visiting Hong Kong.

[tanilama]

Definitely not in the sense that China would treat HK issue like anything but its internal issues.

Its action of directly imposing the national security law upon HK only asserts its position, that Chinese government doesn't see there is any need to start negotiation, with anyone.

[itsmeamario]

Yes, personally I'd go live to China for a while before than to the US.

All isn't as white and black as "we have ideals and they're the baddies". The US has a lot of negative things too like x40 guns per citizen [0] or a prohibitively expensive healthcare [1]

I'd also like to learn Mandarin, but that's on me.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_systems_by_country...

[teekert]

I think you need to read this book : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit...

[obiye]

I’ve read it. I think you need to learn any Chinese or Russian history.

[_-___________-_]

> Russia and China aspire to nothing.

This is the same kind of destructive and pointlessly cynical statement that you're arguing against.

[boomboomsubban]

>Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals.

How would these "ideals" stop the Chinese action in Hong Kong? Would they lead us to invading China again to force Hong Kong into Western hands, killing god knows how many millions this time?