[illuminati1911]

(I’m a Finn)

I didn’t know what small talk was until I went to study abroad. Most of my foreign classmates often asked me things like ”how are you doing?” etc. and when I literally answered them what I had been up to recently they were very confused.

”Dude...no need to tell your life story, just say ’good’ and that’s it”

I replied ”Why do you ask a question if you don’t care about the answer?”

I learned the hard way, but learned still. :D

[mmsimanga]

In Africa we are the total opposite. We are the masters of small talk. Traditionally when you meet someone you need to ask how the person is, how his/her family are and whether or not the rains have been good (rains are an indicator for the size of the harvest nevermind that we buy most of our food now). Some people go through all the family member, how is your dad, how is your mother, how is your daughter is she enjoying school, where is your brother now, how are his kids, has the last born started grade school ... After all these greetings only then can you get to your business. I swear this is the reason Africa as a whole got left behind in terms of technological development. Half the day is passes on small talk. It does make for pleasant interactions. You get to know the person you are dealing with well as we like to say, there is no hurry in Africa. In the cities we do have less small talk.

If you ever get a chance to listen to a South African radio call-in show, you will hear just about every caller ask the show host/DJ how he or she is before airing their view. It can be irritating listening to the show host say I am fine 100 times.

[thaumasiotes]

> traditionally when you meet someone you need to ask how the person is, how his/her family are and whether or not the rains have been good (rains are an indicator for the size of the harvest nevermind that we buy most of our food now). Some people go through all the family member, how is your dad, how is your mother, how is your daughter is she enjoying school, where is your brother now, how are his kids, has the last born started grade school ... After all these greetings only then can you get to your business. I swear this is the reason Africa as a whole got left behind in terms of technological development.

I would be interested to know what standard Japanese practice is. In my mind (informed only by stereotype) they'd lean toward the ask-about-the-family end of the spectrum too.

[ebiester]

There's more nuance in the greeting than at first glance, based on social distance.

Implicit in the question is, "How much are you looking to talk?" and "how close do you feel to the person asking?"

Also encoded is my expectation of conversation. If I say it casually or to a group, I am expecting a casual response. If I slow it down and emphasize "Are" or "You", I'm providing subtext that I am expecting a longer conversation or are genuinely interested in a longer conversation that can dive into more personal matters. If I know someone isn't doing well (death in the family, etc), it can slow down but not have the increased pitch of the other greeting, inviting knowledge that we're already past that.

When responding, I have the opportunity to interrupt the normal flow in both polite and impolite forms. All of this is highly contextual so that the "simple" answer is to say "Good, and you?" but there's subtext to learn.

[Isamu]

As an American, I had to learn the same thing. Only as a young kid, but I specifically remember this experience.

I think most people forget this, that you have to learn that a lot of conversation is not literal, it is opaque code for something else.

I am still a pretty literal conversationalist but I can translate fluently.

A friend had a great anecdote about his first meal with his girlfriend's family. The father asked, "is there any salt?" and my friend answered "yes" and just continued eating. He really had no idea that people say things like that instead of what they mean, which is "please pass me the salt," because his family would always just come out and say something more literal.

People who are used to using indirect language are usually shocked that there is any other way to talk.

[wolfgke]

Story time: At a party of math students, the following dialogue happened between classmates (names changed):

Alice: "Do you know whether Carol will come to the party?"

Bob: "She will come, but somewhat later. I think she will be there in half an hour."

Alice: "I am not interested in whether she will come or not. If I wanted to know that information, I would simply have asked you whether she will come and if you did not know, you would simply have answered 'I don't know'. But this is not the question that I asked. I just wanted to know whether you have the knowledge whether she will come or not and that is why i formulated the question exactly this way and not differently."

[reitanqild]

I've trouble wrapping my head around that.

IMO Alice seems rude and even manipulative, first asking a question, then lecturing the person who answees the question in a perfectly valid way.

The normal thing to do in such a case (where I grew up and where I live now) would be to accept the answer as it 1. Answers the question at hand. 2. Is a perfect non-offensive interpretation of the intent of the question.

[henriquemaia]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, the right flow of conversation, from the point of view of Alice, would be like this:

> Alice: "Do you know whether Carol will come to the party?"

Bob: Yes, I know. (or No, I don't know).

Awkward silence. What a strange way to conduct a conversation.

[MichaelDickens]

Why did Alice want to know whether Bob knew if Carol was coming, but didn't want to know if Carol was coming? That seems like a weird thing to want to know.

[wolfgke]

> Why did Alice want to know whether Bob knew if Carol was coming, but didn't want to know if Carol was coming?

Because Alice wanted to find out whether Bob and Carol know each other well enough that Bob knows whether Carol will come or not.

[goliatone]

Alice was building a social graph model of ppl attending the party?

[MR4D]

I think you missed a step (or maybe I did?)...

Alice wanted to know if BOB had built a social graph of people attending the party.

BTW, your comment was pretty funny either way.

[aaronchall]

Alice programs in C.

Bob programs in Python.

[BrandoElFollito]

I do not think they are shocked. When you are used to speak indirectly, the direct way is not that difficult.

The other way (as witnessed in your friend's story) can be.

[tuomosipola]

There were these two British gentlemen coaching our doctoral programme summer meetup. I think their task was to make us better communicate our research. Probably quite hard because we were all from a STEM background and at least half of us Finns.

During a break, we were seated in a table of five and this British guy sits with us for a while and asks some generic questions, but soon leaves our table because he wants to meet the other students, too. Then one of the Finnish students next to me asks ironically: "So... was that supposed to be that famous small talk?", making many of us smirk.

[merpnderp]

Ironic that you made small talk to mock the concept of small talk.

[Balgair]

Semi-related: My uncle grew up speaking Gaelic and learned English in his later teens and has become a successful musician, doing a lot of touring. He mentioned to me, over a few glasses, that the language of the US is Sports, not English. The doormen at hotels, the roadies, the servers in restaurants, the cashiers, the flight attendants, other musicians, etc. all of them 'spoke sports.' In his experience, if you started talking about the Lakers'/Broncos'/Red-Wings'/local-teams' most recent game, you'd get an instant connection with that person (and therefore a much better experience). He made it a point, while on the road, to watch the ESPN highlights back at the hotel, to have something to talk about with valets, cashiers, while standing in line, etc. For my uncle, it made road-life a LOT easier and more friendly.

So, in most of the US at least, remember that small talk can be made easier by talking recent sports news.

[f_allwein]

"Did you see that ludicrous display last night?" https://youtu.be/6yN2H3--1aw

[Balgair]

Haha! This exactly!

[DougN7]

My brother calls knowing about sports “social capital”.

[dingaling]

How do Finns flirt without smalltalk? Just jump straight to 'do you find me attractive?' and 'do you want to date?'

Though admittedly I used to work with an Irish guy whose sole chat-up line was 'are ye ridin?' and who had considerable success.

[lucozade]

Entirely anecdotal but my one experience of Finnish "flirting" consisted of telling fairly rude stories over a large bottle of vodka at the kitchen table (at the house we were both lodging in).

When I felt it was time for bed, we both went upstairs. I went to go to my room, on my own, and she said "no, we'll use my room". Or words to that effect. At no point, up till then, had it occurred to me there was anything between us. Just friends getting drunk.

No idea if this is typical but it was a very pleasant surprise to my teenage self.

[dev360]

This is 100% Scandinavian romance.

[kpil]

Judging by a few nights in Helsinki a long time ago, the main strategy for men seemed to be drinking themselves into such a helpless state that it triggered some sort of maternal instinct in a girl walking by.

It seemed to work for them. Actually talking to a girl also worked if I remember correctly.

[dvfjsdhgfv]

A person I met on a plane to Oulu told me her experience (so I have no idea how representative this is): the guy took her out, then they were drinking - but he was barely talking at all - and in the end he asked, "Do you wanna have sex?" Which is funny as I met several Finns who were not like that, they seemed to enjoy talking and company and general.

[Bartweiss]

On a related note, what happens at parties where lots of people don't know each other? (Assuming that happens at all.)

As much as smalltalk is unneeded in everyday life, having a script that brings out some general background ("so what do you do?", "are you from around here?", "how do you know {host}?") does help when strangers are looking for common ground where they can talk more deeply.

[vlehto]

In Finland we have these things called "Pönötys" and "kursaileminen". I'm half kidding, but half serious. Pönötys means awkward formal standing when you are wearing a suit or can of beer, but don't know where to put your hands or anybody to talk to. It actually happens a lot. "Kursaileminen" is kind of pretending that you don't need anything and have nothing to say. It's finnish way of being polite because you are not bothering anybody. Also happens quite a lot.

You do both of those and then you sneak to someone and ask them anything. It might well be "how do you know the host?" But Finns are quite flexible with the subjects because there is no culture of what you ought to speak about. You can ask anything, you don't have to ask anything. But do expect to get a throughout and honest answer.

It's great if you're imaginative and curious or if you want to be left alone. But if you fall in the middle it can get difficult.

[setr]

Thats exactly the same as a world with smalltalk

Bullshit questions that you ask in hopes of stumbling into something interesting to talk about (ie how well do you know the host) is the essence of smalltalk.

We just continue starting with the useless questions even if we already have an actual topic to work with ;)

[pimeys]

Met my American partner in a party in Berlin, talked a couple of hours about philosophy and been happy together for some years now. Although not living in Finland I can still call myself a Finn and it wasn't that hard.

PS we don't believe in smalltalk... :)

[sonnyblarney]

They probably do care about the answer, it's just not a 'life story' type question.

You can say "I'm tired" or "Rough day" or, you can tell something that happened recently.

"How are you doing" -> "Well, my dog passed away last night, so ..."

Or

"I've been up all night studying, so kind of scattered"

Or

"Well I just won the CS101 competition, so, stoked!"

[raffael-vogler]

I think that what you describe as doing is definitely small talk. It's just not the dumbed-down type expected by many people in the US or some anglo saxon societies. Also the message of the article is actually contradicting your observation b/c it insinuates that Finnish people pretty much don't talk in such situations - which you did. And I hope you can unlearn again b/c as a German I really prefer people with your take on conversing! Those people should rather learn from you.

[vidarh]

I'm Norwegian, and had the same experience moving to the UK. For several years I kept grumbling about how rude people were to ask and then just keep walking while I stopped to answer.

[Broken_Hippo]

I'm American and live in Norway. I have to remind myself that when folks ask how I'm doing, they actually are curious instead of merely polite :)

[tomp]

Looks like I need to move to Finland :D

[stevekemp]

I moved to Finland from the UK, and it is strikingly different.

That said strangers talk to you in the sauna all the time, and that seems to be both acceptable and encouraged.

[bemmu]

Finn here. Sauna changes the way people talk, taking them out from the day-to-day on to deeper topics. There isn't anything else to do besides staring at the steaming rocks.

The atmosphere suits it well; dimly lit and relaxing. Laying on your back on grass and staring at the stars would inspire similar conversations.

[majewsky]

Same. This article felt like a very narrowly targeted ad for me. :)

[Fnoord]

(I have autism)

That sums it up for me.

I suppose Finland would be rather autism-friendly in this regard?

[SilasX]

Am 36yo American, lived here all my life. It still feels dissonant not to give a substantive answer to "how are you".

[thaumasiotes]

I have a big problem with this as well. Once, while studying in Shanghai, an (Italian) classmate asked me and, seeing my usual struggle to respond, remarked "this question is always so difficult for you".

[SilasX]

I had a co-worker who got a real kick out of asking me a similar question and seeing me struggle.

[fmihaila]

I am not a Finn, but I can relate. The current discussion reminds me of this NYT article on this very subject:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/20/opinion/the-how-are-you-c...

[macca321]

What's Facebook usage like in Finland?

[stevekemp]

High.

[Koshkin]

This is not a “small talk,” this is just greeting. Similar to the British “How do you do, sir?”, to which you answer, “How do you do?” and that’s that.

[Cthulhu_]

Same, not even finnish but when I'm in the UK and people go "Youright?" I'm like "uuuuuuuhhhhhh".

[ddalex]

Too much rrr in that and too many letters. It more like: yoaight?

[zakk]

I also learned it the hard way, but coming from the other extreme.

I grew up in Italy, where asking “how are you doing” is not uncommon. Only difference: people actually expect a short summary of what you’ve been up to...

[tvanantwerp]

Were it not for the climate, I think I'd like Finland very much.

[josefresco]

"how are you doing?" is literally asking just that. You answered with what you had been "up to" recently - that doesn't make sense.

A better example would be your friend asking "what you been up to?" and you answered in very detailed manner when your friend might have been expecting a brief answer like: "not much" or "I've been busy".