[Kelbit]

If Canadian companies were willing to offer a competitive salary, maybe Canadian grads would stay. It doesn't even have to be 1:1 with the US, even 75% would be nice.

As it is, there is little incentive to stay here. I know a new grad who was faced with the choice of staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year starting, or heading to the US where he had a job offer with one of the big five for $120k USD plus signing bonus. Guess which option he chose?

Canadian tech companies love to complain about lack of talent, but they're not willing to pay for it, and they seem oblivious to the fact that we have a professional worker mobility agreement with our southern neighbors that makes it very easy to get a visa.

Something's gotta change.

[RobertDeNiro]

Lower salary could be acceptable if the cost of living was lower, unfortunately it's often the same as in the US. Vancouver might even be more expensive. Maybe if provincial/federal governments tackled that first more people would stay, as it would be a better environment to raise a family.

[lhorie]

> unfortunately it's often the same as in the US

Definitely not my experience (Toronto -> SF). My rent for a 2-bed apartment in SF is twice as much as my mortgage for a 3-bed detached in Toronto (both with similar commute times)

With that said, signing bonuses are definitely something that you don't ever get in Canada, raises and yearly bonuses are also categorically lower, and housing prices have been outpacing salary increases significantly.

However, there are definitely very good reasons to be in Canada instead of the US/Bay area. Healthcare, for one thing, isn't an opaque insurance clusterfuck. It's also much safer (both macroscopically, in terms of things like shootings, and microscopically, in terms of side effects of widespread homelessness).

Another thing to consider is that work visas are far easier to get in Canada, and the path to citizenship is also much less draconian.

[okfine]

"If Canadian companies were willing"

This comes up in every thread about Canada, but it seems a lapse of logic to anthropomorphize a market like this. The market doesn't "will" anything, and people's willingness to offer/accept a salary is more a consequence of local conditions than a cause. Those conditions include the option of getting paid more if you're willing to leave the country, which some are. Presumably that affects the market for those who choose to remain, but it would be interesting to know by how much. It's not obvious.

Canadian companies complain about lack of talent about as much as their employees complain about lack of salary. Isn't it a sign of a market reaching its level when both sides complain about the price but nevertheless accept it?

[cmrdporcupine]

Yes, using personalized anthropomorphic terms is silly.

Except that behind the Great Toronto tech market there are real people, making decisions. At the government, at the investment, and at the management level.

And by and large those people have made decisions which see engineering talent here as a resource that they have to push the cost down on even if it means losing domestic talent to the US.

Part of this is accomplished by importing talent from abroad or exporting the work abroad, or underpaying when they can get away with it. It's not a surprise that locally developed talent leaves after graduation, when the industry is actively recruiting from abroad.

And part of this is relying on the percentage of talent hat simply will not or cannot consider moving abroad (people like myself).

[dblohm7]

Well, the Canadian employees are moving south. They clearly aren't accepting it.

[netheril96]

Those who have left are not accepting it. Those who stay are.

[okfine]

I meant employees of Canadian companies, who by definition are.

(I edited it to say "their employees" instead of "Canadian employees". Hopefully that will help.)

[jonathanyc]

If “Canadian tech companies have employees” is your criterion for Canada’s tech companies paying good wages, you’re in for a bad time.

TFA is about Canadian employees leaving for the US for better wages, as the other commenter pointed out.

[okfine]

I didn't say they were paying "good" wages, but that they are paying market wages. The argument that Canadian software salaries aren't a market, but rather a stubborn choice by companies not to do the right thing, is curiously magical.

The question is, what would change the situation? Not some change of heart by companies to finally do the right thing, or come to their senses about what their self-interest really is. Those aren't real things. To change it would require some change in the fundamentals, such as if the government made it harder for people to leave.

[jonathanyc]

> The question is, what would change the situation? Not some change of heart by companies to finally do the right thing, or come to their senses about what their self-interest really is. Those aren't real things.

This is a horrible false dichotomy. It takes time for companies to decide on and implement changes. Do you think that companies magically always make optimal decisions at all times? You claim that other people are anthropomorphizing companies, but that’s precisely what you’re doing here, on top of a healthy dose of failure to make the is-ought distinction.

I‘m also not sure why you are misinterpreting “good wages.” I’m not talking about “deserved wages” or anything like that. Again, read TFA.

Lastly, your suggestion that the Canadian government make it harder for people to leave is horrific, inhumane, and quite frankly the most regressive possible “solution” to this problem. I’m astounded that anyone would even suggest it.

[guiolo]

> Canadian tech companies love to complain about lack of talent, but they're not willing to pay for it [...]

They most likely to a large extent can't. It's just a different model both as comapnies and country. In general you can rarely win by being a lesser version of something else. Canada can, hopefully, do a lot of things the US can't. Those are the things it should do to attract people.

[Kelbit]

I think it's more a case of VCs not being calibrated to the real cost of doing business. Canada is a first world country with a GDP per capita not much less than the states. There is plenty of wealth available that could be invested in tech. It's just Bay Street generally doesn't want to, because they don't understand the tech business.

Name one prominent Canadian VC firm - I can't think of any, and I'm Canadian. But ask me about US firms, and I can name firms like Sequioa, a16z, and BVP. We don't have that here.

[wk_end]

It's been suggested to me that because of Canada's long history of a resource-based economy, Canadian investors are far more accustomed to the long, slow model of: let's research a site for several years, make sure it'll be profitable, build a town, and get to work. The higher risk, fail-fast nature of VC investing is just too foreign to their business model.

[jboy55]

One of the problems is the public demands a lower risk investment. A single Theranos would knee cap the entire VC industry in Canada. "How could this be allowed to happen?!" The stories of LPs losing their $50k investments would lead the newspapers for months.

In Silicon Valley its a, 'Oh that sucks, but the smart money stayed away, that should have been a tell for the other investors".

[Kelbit]

That already happened, to a degree. Canada's dot-com darling was Nortel, which at peak accounted for 1/3 of the total valuation on the Toronto Stock Exchange.

Then the bubble burst and Nortel collapsed. A lot of institutional investors swore off tech after that, and it hasn't really rebounded.

[spoonie]

Nortel was an actual fraud though, as well as collapsing as a company. Changing financial reporting rules could prevent another Nortel-style fraud.

[jorblumesea]

Canada's main attraction is the social services and basicaly guaranteed citizenship. The US's main attraction is money and technical opportunities and also some vague promise of a green card.

[woolvalley]

If you were not born in China or India, then getting a green card isn't a vague promise. Go work at google, try to get an H1B or L1 ASAP and then get your green card in 1-2 years after that.

[netheril96]

Given that much more Chinese and Indians still prefer US to Canada, further and further elongating the lines for green card, it seems the Canadian advantage is not so enticing after all.

[mabbo]

> staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year starting

Amazon Toronto starts new grads at like $80-100k last I heard. It's not as good as you can get in Silicon Valley, but rent in Toronto (while still high) is much lower than in the Valley.

[a-priori]

For another data point: I'm an Amazon SDE2 in Ottawa making CA$225k total compensation this year (about 2/3 of that is salary). That's very good pay locally. I'm not sure I can match that anywhere else in the city.

I might be able to get better in the States, even after cost-of-living increases, but what quality of life gain would there be? Would it be worthwhile to have to deal with all the crazy shit with the education and healthcare systems and the politics down there?

So I'm sticking here in Canada. I just don't see the point in moving south.

[toephu2]

"Would it be worthwhile to have to deal with all the crazy shit with the education and healthcare systems and the politics down there?"

I don't know, 325M other people seem to be living with it and are not leaving in droves.

[ttul]

Holy cow - $255K in _Ottawa_... that’s living the dream, man.

[greaseball]

Developers in Toronto are getting a raw deal. The cost of living is orders of magnitude higher than the rest of the country and devs aren't making the difference up with higher wages.

So glad I made the decision to move from Toronto to Atlantic Canada this past year. I'm actually making more money in New Brunswick than I did in Toronto and can afford to own a 4 bedroom house instead of renting a 600 square foot condo.

[hluska]

I have been weighing making a move from Saskatchewan to New Brunswick. When I compare Regina to Fredericton (as an example) though, it seems like I must be missing something. On the surface, pay is generally better, the stacks/companies are more interesting, the location seems amazing, and comparable real estate is less than half.

I know that Regina->NB is dramatically different from Toronto->NB, but is there anything you wish you would have known??

[greaseball]

Might be obvious, but the biggest thing you'll give up in this market compared to cities like Toronto or Montréal is selection. There's some larger companies with satellite offices here (IBM, Salesforce, etc), but not too many startups.

One word of caution about real estate in the Fredericton area; don't buy any property too close to the river. There's usually flooding in the spring from the snow melt up stream and this year was especially bad. I was lucky enough not to be affected, but there's lots of homes taking flood damage right now.

[hluska]

First, I apologize. I know that the river is flooding right now and I asked you 'should I move' questions when you could have been facing a tragedy. That was very selfish of me and I'm sorry.

I'm very glad you weren't affected by the flooding, and thanks for being kind, despite my gaffe!

[greaseball]

No worries, happy to help.

[tonyarkles]

Don't leave! :D

It finally feels to me like things are on the cusp of getting interesting in Regina. Saskatoon's recent acquisitions (Solido bought by Mentor/Siemens, SkipTheDishes) seems to have raised a lot of eyebrows in Regina and there's at least some momentum building to get investors/business folks/tech folks together to start building things. Co-Labs in Saskatoon seems to have been a huge inspiration/wake-up call for parts of the Regina business community.

That being said... I've always had a bit of a longing for Atlantic Canada, and if the jobs are out there... that's pretty interesting!

[sidlls]

What are rents like in Toronto? Are they $700 - $1300 per month lower (the difference of $20k - $40k net of taxes is about that)? If not, it doesn't make sense to work in Toronto.

The same situation exists across the US. For example I can get a mortgage on a nice place in the Midwest that is half my current rent in SV. That amounts to about $24k/year. However I'd have take a pay cut of about $40k gross (or more) for a job with identical responsibilities and to live in a region with far fewer opportunities. It's a net loss.

[digianarchist]

I pay $1750 CAD for a 1 bed + den near to the subway line. It's around 700 sqft.

[sidlls]

Here's a CL search just to show you what you could get on the Peninsula. It's not the city, but it's close enough. https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/pen/apa?sort=priceasc&nh...

The "near downtown San Mateo" listing is a 5-minute bike ride from Caltrain, 600sq ft and US$1785. So about CAD$600 more than your rent.

[analyst74]

The equivalent of $1750 Toronto condo (modern high rise with all the amenities) is going to be very hard to find in SV except some of the newer constructions at $3500~4000.

A friend has a one bedroom in San Mateo in the sub $3000 range. The building is very old, no amenities or views to speak of, and not even in-suite laundry.

[sidlls]

Your friend is getting hosed. I have a 3 bed, 2.5 ba 1600 sq ft duplex with a yard near downtown for $4k/mo. It's older, but there's nothing wrong with it, it has a garage and a W/D, driveway, etc.

[digianarchist]

Engineer with 5 years experience earning $117k CAD ($91k USD) in North York. I don't see a lot of jobs under $85k CAD in Toronto.

[cmrdporcupine]

From what I've seen... If you consider stock options and bonuses, you could be making at least double that in the valley.

Canadians getting a raw deal by comparison. Cost of living in Toronto is not half of that of the Bay Area. Most like 2/3rds.

[digianarchist]

What matters to me is how much I can bank at the end of the month. With that in mind I've been looking hard at Austin but I'd need a H1-B.

I'm not willing to lose a quarter of my household income because my wife cannot work.

[setsanto]

Same problem here. I have offers in the Bay Area but my girlfriend would not be TN visa eligible due to her line of work. Rock and a hard place...

[digianarchist]

We just keep applying for the DV lottery. It’s a long shot but my wife qualifies.

I might move on a TN visa with the understanding that my employer converts to H1-B after 12 months.

[dagmx]

I'm kind of in the same boat. Vancouver making 135k approximately (based on 40hr week, since wage is hourly)

Have an offer at a FAANG company that when converted to CAD is the same as what my wife and I make combined.

Unfortunately we'd still lose a big chunk of our household income till she can find work there. Fortunately she's American but still in a relatively niche field so might take some time.

[cmrdporcupine]

Citation needed on the rents. Yes, maybe out in the suburbs, but if you want any kind of quality of life where you're not constantly commuting...

[m-p-3]

I'm wondering how that salary difference really is when comparing the cost of living of many Canadian cities vs Silicon Valley, the taxation rate and the social services provided (universal healthcare, etc).

[Eridrus]

> the social services provided (universal healthcare, etc).

I think the individual value of most social services is pretty low to people in this demographic (recent graduates taking software jobs in the US).

Sure, universal healthcare is great, but US companies also provide health insurance.

[estebank]

That demographic you're referring to is no less likely to be involved in traffic accidents that can send you to the closest available hospital. In the US that means an ambulance bill and very likely a hospital bill that your insurance might not cover, and the high possibility of chronic pain that's not necessarily covered by your health insurance. And that's even before having to deal with lawyers in order to obtain compensation back from the driver's insurance company in order to repay the out of pocket expenses. (The system, at least in California is set up in such a way that the car insurance has to pay 3X the costs to divide in thirds for 1) your lawyer, 2) your insurance provider and 3) yourself.)

[rconti]

Give me a break. Healthcare in the US is a joke, but if you're on an engineer's salary and benefits plan, you're probably paying nothing for any of these things.

Protip: "treble damages" is not a thing California invented in order to pay legal fees

[estebank]

> if you're on an engineer's salary and benefits plan, you're probably paying nothing for any of these things.

My wife was hit by a driver while cycling. She was taken to an in-network hospital as it happened to be the closest one. A 10 block ride on an ambulance yielded bill for a few thousand dollars. On the day of the event, the only out of pocket expense was <100 USD, but since then we've incurred several thousand dollars in expenses to treat the consequences of that event.

You're right that as somebody with an engineer's salary who's been diligent in making sure we had savings for unforeseen events, we've been able to pay all of the required fees as they came, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken into account when talking about compensation across different countries, or that being young and healthy precludes needing health care.

> "treble damages" is not a thing California invented in order to pay legal fees

I prefaced with "at least in California" because it's the place where I've had to find this out. I'm more familiar with systems in other countries.

All lawyers that we had to contact (which was already a shocking thing to do for me) had the same payment structure and explained it the same way: there would be a settlement, to be divided equally by HC provider, lawyer's fees and victim. I mentioned this because I can assure you that most people that don't know the American system would be surprised about it.

[rconti]

I could tell you had a specific story, as you alluded to the details in your original comment, but again, these are the exceptions rather than the norm. I get it; my wife was in a car accident that sent her to the hospital for a week, almost exactly a year ago. I've gotten the $200k 'denied' explanation of benefits paperwork from the insurance company (and no doubt the total bill ran over $500k), I've been threatened with collections over a $3500 ambulance bill and had to sign up for the payment plan while I spend all the free time i can muster faxing paperwork to and fro with various insurance companies. It sucks, it's inefficient, and it's simply setting money and productivity on fire.. but ultimately, there's a chain of responsibility. It's the at-fault party's responsibility, whether you have to chase after their car insurance company or your own health insurance company.. eventually it can and should be covered if you're at a good job, but good god it's a nightmare to actually deal with.

In the end, though, I don't consider health insurance to be a cost an in-demand professional would factory into a decision to move from Canada to the US.

[CydeWeys]

Yes, but most companies in this space provide some sort of healthcare, which covers a lot of that, and accidents are a small percentage of total healthcare outlays anyway. Much more healthcare spending goes to older people, for a much broader array of more common conditions than "got into a bad car accident".

Health insurance is much more expensive at 55 than at 25.

[estebank]

Younger people do have fewer needs to treat chronic illnesses. That doesn't mean that healthcare can never be a significant financial burden regardless.

- I've met people that have had terminal cancer in their very early 30s (didn't leave a giant bill to their state as this happened in the UK)

- I've had a friend that needed an ambulance for his pregnant wife from an airport (>10K USD in out of pocket expenses)

- I've been stabbed in an attempted robbery (again, no expense as this was in Argentina)

- Young people with chronic illnesses exist

[CydeWeys]

I think it's pretty clear from context that I was talking about average medical expenses by age, for which older people do pay much, much more.

Also, $10K is a low figure for medical expenses compared to how much one can spend. End of life care for the elderly can easily run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. My grandfather has been in and out of the hospital a lot this year with a broken hip, complications thereof, and fairly advanced dementia, and his covered medical expenses have been astronomical. He gets full-time care every waking moment, 7 days a week -- so that's several full-time salaries on top of medical expenses. $10K doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of how much it can cost to treat someone.

[ironrabbit]

Born/raised in Toronto, been in SF for ~4 years. It's not even close. Yes, my rent in SF is high, but my total comp is six figures higher than what I could earn in Toronto. Wages are considerably higher, even when you factor in cost of living, services, and everything else.

[bacongobbler]

The cost of living in the major Canadian tech cities (Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa) is lower than Silicon Valley, sure, but Vancouver is still one of the most expensive cities to live in the world. The drop in salary is way too low when compared to the cost of living.

[privacypoller]

The cost of living between Vancouver and Seattle is very comparable, especially when you account for your biggest input costs, housing, food & transportation. The Salaries most definitely are not. The biggies south of the border set the baseline salary for everyone; when they move north they match the existing, much lower rates.

If I was a new-ish grad and wanted to stay in the PNW there's not a chance I'd pick Vancouver. Seattle has all the same electric cars, dog bakeries and yarn stores that you'll find in the lower mainland, and heading to Whistler for the weekend with more US greenbacks in your pocket would be a lot more fun...

[hluska]

I can't believe how much Vancouver has changed (as far as attractiveness for recent grads) over the last twenty years.

When I turned 20 in 1997, Vancouver seemed like a personal version of heaven. Rents were more expensive than where I'm from, but that increase was easily offset by the ability to easily double my salary. Real estate was heavy, but not so heavy that it seemed unobtainable. Add in what I perceived to be real opportunity to work in an interesting field, a highly educated workforce and the natural beauty and I was completely sold.

Today, even if I were twenty again, I can't think of a single legitimate reason why I would choose Vancouver over Seattle.

[woolvalley]

Having lived in both, the cities are pretty much identical in practice in your day to day life, not counting the costs and the income.

[seanmcdirmid]

Eating out is definitely better in Vancouver than Seattle, both in variety and price. However, that’s about it.

[mywittyname]

The big tech hubs in CA (Toronto, Vancouver) are expensive and traffic is absolutely awful. A quick glance online shows average apartment prices are nearly $2000/mo. So it's almost like you're living in Seattle anyway.

I don't think CA has many technical equivalents to Ohama or Columbus that combine high salaries from numerous F500 companies with Midwestern COL.

[Thaxll]

Isn't Montreal bigger than Vancouver? Also Montreal is cheap to live in.

[t1o5]

Other than Montreal's cheap cost of living and good public transportation, everything else is not so great. Talented engineers graduating from McGill and Concordia are leaving the province in droves because of Quebec's weird language laws [1], high taxes and obsolete immigration system. (Eg: KFC was renamed to PFK to comply with the language laws)

MIDI, the immigration department of Quebec which has fully autonomy for selecting immigrants to Quebec fails to attract or retain the foreign talents. A highly skilled worker is not given any kind of priority in their immigration application.

On the other hand, if you only have a school diploma, but can speak fluent French, you get the top priority in Quebec immigration.

If you are highly skilled, but do not know a word of French, it will take a minimum of 4 years to immigrate to Quebec [2]. Montreal is just riding on their old inertia. There is a huge shortage of talent in Quebec. The policies of immigration dept. of Quebec and Quebec's language policies will drive Quebec down the drain. Some politicians have even announced that if they get elected, they will deport all the non French speaking immigrants out of Quebec.

So any startups looking to start their business in Quebec, you have been warned. Montreal is a great tourist city, no contest. But not so great to live or work for tech. If you immigrate to Quebec, your kids should go to French school only.[4]

[1] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pastagate-reve...

[2] http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/02/27/des-travailleurs...

[3] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/caq-s-new-immigration-policy-lea...

[4] http://unbelavenir.gouv.qc.ca/en/whychoosequebec-foreducatio...

[jkaplowitz]

I'm a US-citizen immigrant to Canada, selected by Quebec and living in Montreal. Many of these assertions, though commonly believed, are half true.

The Global Skills Strategy that the federal government here is running includes tech workers, and yes it includes Quebec. MIDI has facilitated processing for many of those. For kids of people here on temporary work permits, including that type, English schools are allowed.

For permanent immigration, MIDI currently gives more points for an applicant with a bachelor's degree in computer science from anywhere in the world - regardless of language knowledge - than it does for a high school-educated applicant who is fluent in French. There are lots of factors that affect the score. While they do value French ability more than English, it's not as overwhelming as that suggests.

Their autonomy in selecting temporary workers (including tech workers) is not full, btw - there are many cases where a Labour Market Impact Assessment is not needed, and then Quebec doesn't have veto power on those workers. Quebec will still give them a leg up based on that experience if they later apply for permanent residence - yes, even without French knowledge.

Last, KFC did rename themselves to PFK due to the language politics, but that was a business decision, not legally required. Subway, Banana Republic, Canadian Tire, and many other Anglo-named companies are still using their Anglo names as their brands here. It was similarly voluntary that Shopper's Drug Mart goes by Pharmaprix here.

As for taxes: it doesn't seem higher overall than NYC, a major US tech hub, and it includes a lot more for the money.

[t1o5]

The Global Skills Strategy is only for a certain category of employers, mainly large ones. A startup cannot use that to hire a worker. [1]

> more points for an applicant with a bachelor's degree in computer science from anywhere in the world

Quebec's immigration system is not point based as of now. Its FCFS. Though they say its points based, there is no indication from statistics that MIDI selects workers based on points. In fact, MIDI is a blackbox when it comes to revealing the strategy that they use to select workers while Federal Express Entry is fully transparent. Bachelor's degree holders in Comp. Sc are waiting for more than 5 years for a CSQ from Quebec, while they can immigrate to other provinces within months !

There are reports of systematic discrimination by MIDI regarding the selection of applicants based on their citizenship. As a US citizen, its no wonder you are given priority than applicants from third world countries. There are two class action suites against MIDI currently regarding systematic discrimination in selecting applicants. [2] [5] [7]

Ombudsman's Annual Report About MIDI says there are 31,378 applications pending as of March 31, 2017. [3]

> Quebec will still give them a leg up based on that experience if they later apply for permanent residence

That has been on hold with no explanation from MIDI since 2017. [4]

MIDI systematically discriminates applicants even in French priority category (PEQ) if they are from China or India [5]

A forum where applicants discuss about delays from MIDI [6]

[1] https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...

[2] https://imk.ca/en/rahim-and-rhia-basnet-v-midi/

[3] http://publications.virtualpaper.com/protecteur-du-citoyen/e...

[4] http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/02/27/des-travailleurs...

[5] http://chalkimmigration.com/2018/04/29/update-peq-group-judi...

[6] https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-boa...

[7] http://oreopoulos.faculty.economics.utoronto.ca/wp-content/u...

[branchless]

The language laws thing is not a big deal. People just get on with it.

Montreal is great. I'm here, and if my kids don't go into IT they will work in another sector and will be able to afford to live.

I'd consider SV a death sentence. Who wants to work when you will never achieve financial independence because you'll never own your own land? And if you have a huge mortgage you are your boss's bitch forever.

[okatsu]

Yeah I find the language laws thing funny. I've worked with a crapton of people who never had to learn a word of French, and if they ever have to, then so what? French is the language here. That's like complaining about Italian in Italy.

[twblalock]

I work in tech in Silicon Valley and most of my coworkers own their own homes or condos. It's not uncommon at all.

[okatsu]

I'm a second-generation immigrant born and raised in Montreal.

Quebec's language is French and historically speaking it has every reason to attempt to protect it. Should immigration be more accommodating towards people willing to learn French? Probably. In my lifetime though I've mostly encountered anglophones who chose Quebec out of all provinces but then refused to speak the language, so shrug.

And yeah there are stupid politicians who say stupid things, just like in the States where some promise to throw out Mexicans and Muslims.

[Maven911]

Yes having witnessed it myself, it's tragic the self inflicted wounds Montreal takes, while peoplr still pretend it's a tech hub (only in the tiniest of sense)

[jkaplowitz]

For AI and ML, it now has R&D centers for Google, Facebook, and MS. It also has McGill University which is quite well regarded for AI. In that niche it's becoming a hub, though this trend is recent enough that I have to use the present progressive tense.

[monkeynotes]

Quebec has some of the highest income taxes in Canada.

[betaby]

About the same as in California for salaries over 100K

[merinowool]

Is Canadian healthcare any good? Where I live, you pay for this privilege quite a lot of tax at still you have to go privately, because the quality is just not worth your health. I really wish "universal healthcare" was scrapped, so I could afford better services privately.

[wk_end]

Canadian living in the US: in my experience Canadian health care is as good or better than in the US. Waiting times are probably somewhat longer for non-emergencies because of triaging, but (again, my experience, subjective, etc) I've often felt doctors are more interested in providing care and less interested in unnecessary upselling.

I've only ever lived in the GTA, though. It's my understanding that in many places away from major cities there can be a shortage of doctors.

[refurb]

Canadian living in the US: in my experience Canadian health care is as good or better than in the US.

Canadian living in US as well. The one thing I've noticed is the choice of healthcare in the US (for those with good insurance). Have cancer? Pick the best hospital you can find in the area. In Canada, you might live next to a world-class institute or it might just be a regular hospital. That's where you go.

But yes, healthcare in Canada is very good. The other thing I would call out is that experimental/cutting edge technology is often available in the US before Canada.

[graeme]

Yup, Canadian healthcare is generally excellent. The main complaints thar hit the news are generally long wait times for elective surgeries like knee fixes.

For anything other than that I've had effectively zero wait time and excellent care. There are even free health lines you can call for basic info.

[__erik]

Canadian services are typically good especially for urgent care things, I only have gone private on one occasion and that was for an MRI years ago when there were fewer of them available. I had a tear in my MCL and they wanted to see the degree (relatively low priority, it wasn't a full tear and I didnt need surgery). The wait for the MRI was ~6 weeks but so just paid out of pocket privately and had the results sent to my doctor. Took 2 days and he got what he needed.

[systemBuilder]

Canada has good Healthcare up to the level of US medtech about 20 years ago. Anything invented in the last 20 years is not available through Canada Health Care. They will have an occasional crock of s* like one or two radiation machines for cancer for an entire province of 5 million people.

[ryanobjc]

I think the thing that improves country wide healthcare outcomes in Canada is that everyone can go to a doctor. However, outcomes for complex cases are not as good.

[dblohm7]

It's great, but there can be long wait lists for specialists, even for urgent things.

[merinowool]

Here the problem is that specialists aren't that great, and combined with long wait time that leads you nowhere you potentially put your life at risk. Complaint procedures are as bureaucratic as possible so you get no redress.

[lainga]

Coming from BC (west coast) I believe the taxation rate would work out about the same.

[refurb]

Income taxes BC <> CA are pretty similar, but other taxes aren't. Gas is the equivalent of $6/gal in Canada right now (due to taxes), sales tax is 12% and a lot of products (electronics, etc) are just generally more expensive in Canada.

[dagmx]

This is something I've been comparing. I'd pay a little less in income tax in California actually for my brackets, but even though rents etc in SV are higher, I also would be paying less for gas, groceries and any entertainment and tech purchases.

The savings look like they will add up over time.

[ixacto]

Seattle is trying hard to catch up. 10.1% sales tax + just under 50% liquor tax.

[refurb]

No state income tax though!

[cmrdporcupine]

Oh they're willing to pay for the talent. They just bring it in from the PRC or Eastern Europe, or India. And they can pay far less for that.

I'm not opposed to immigration at all. But prior to coming to Google Canada most of the people I worked with in Toronto were not holders of Canadian degrees. They were recent immigrants, permanent residents and not citizens and therefore themselves unable to go to the US. Many of these people were underpaid significantly, and a lot of them mistreated, in my opinion.

The homegrown talent from Waterloo, etc. had mostly left for the U.S.

Some come back after a few years, but many never do.

Add to that the dynamic of many American companies opening offices here as a 'nearshore' lower cost shop, where all the important and interesting decisions are made in the US and the Canadian shop's job is to just execute it.... crappy.

[bambataa]

How do the working hours / culture compare?

[berg01]

Developers are undervalued quite a bit in most places outside SV. (And maybe overvalued a bit in SV.)

I agree about your main point though. It's time to put up (salaries in this case) or shut up.

[nvarsj]

Big 5 new grad salary in the bay area (and Seattle for Amazon) is a microcosm. Those kinds of salaries aren't sustainable for most companies.

[frakkingcylons]

> You won't even get those salaries from the big 5 outside of the bay area.

Flat out wrong. FAANG will absolutely give you similar salaries in metro areas like Seattle, NYC, Austin. Where are you getting your data?

[nvarsj]

I'm talking specifically about new grad salaries. It's not public information, but perusing glassdoor, H1B, acquaintances, that type of thing. I thought FAANG all adjust for location, with Bay Area being at the top. Is there any evidence that starting salaries are the same regardless of location?

It isn't in London compared to the Bay Area, nor was it in Chicago when I lived there, based on people I knew at some of those companies. This is the first time I've heard that starting salaries are identical regardless of location. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

[Kelbit]

It was not the Bay Area, he was working in Seattle.