[t1o5]

Other than Montreal's cheap cost of living and good public transportation, everything else is not so great. Talented engineers graduating from McGill and Concordia are leaving the province in droves because of Quebec's weird language laws [1], high taxes and obsolete immigration system. (Eg: KFC was renamed to PFK to comply with the language laws)

MIDI, the immigration department of Quebec which has fully autonomy for selecting immigrants to Quebec fails to attract or retain the foreign talents. A highly skilled worker is not given any kind of priority in their immigration application.

On the other hand, if you only have a school diploma, but can speak fluent French, you get the top priority in Quebec immigration.

If you are highly skilled, but do not know a word of French, it will take a minimum of 4 years to immigrate to Quebec [2]. Montreal is just riding on their old inertia. There is a huge shortage of talent in Quebec. The policies of immigration dept. of Quebec and Quebec's language policies will drive Quebec down the drain. Some politicians have even announced that if they get elected, they will deport all the non French speaking immigrants out of Quebec.

So any startups looking to start their business in Quebec, you have been warned. Montreal is a great tourist city, no contest. But not so great to live or work for tech. If you immigrate to Quebec, your kids should go to French school only.[4]

[1] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pastagate-reve...

[2] http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/02/27/des-travailleurs...

[3] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/caq-s-new-immigration-policy-lea...

[4] http://unbelavenir.gouv.qc.ca/en/whychoosequebec-foreducatio...

[jkaplowitz]

I'm a US-citizen immigrant to Canada, selected by Quebec and living in Montreal. Many of these assertions, though commonly believed, are half true.

The Global Skills Strategy that the federal government here is running includes tech workers, and yes it includes Quebec. MIDI has facilitated processing for many of those. For kids of people here on temporary work permits, including that type, English schools are allowed.

For permanent immigration, MIDI currently gives more points for an applicant with a bachelor's degree in computer science from anywhere in the world - regardless of language knowledge - than it does for a high school-educated applicant who is fluent in French. There are lots of factors that affect the score. While they do value French ability more than English, it's not as overwhelming as that suggests.

Their autonomy in selecting temporary workers (including tech workers) is not full, btw - there are many cases where a Labour Market Impact Assessment is not needed, and then Quebec doesn't have veto power on those workers. Quebec will still give them a leg up based on that experience if they later apply for permanent residence - yes, even without French knowledge.

Last, KFC did rename themselves to PFK due to the language politics, but that was a business decision, not legally required. Subway, Banana Republic, Canadian Tire, and many other Anglo-named companies are still using their Anglo names as their brands here. It was similarly voluntary that Shopper's Drug Mart goes by Pharmaprix here.

As for taxes: it doesn't seem higher overall than NYC, a major US tech hub, and it includes a lot more for the money.

[t1o5]

The Global Skills Strategy is only for a certain category of employers, mainly large ones. A startup cannot use that to hire a worker. [1]

> more points for an applicant with a bachelor's degree in computer science from anywhere in the world

Quebec's immigration system is not point based as of now. Its FCFS. Though they say its points based, there is no indication from statistics that MIDI selects workers based on points. In fact, MIDI is a blackbox when it comes to revealing the strategy that they use to select workers while Federal Express Entry is fully transparent. Bachelor's degree holders in Comp. Sc are waiting for more than 5 years for a CSQ from Quebec, while they can immigrate to other provinces within months !

There are reports of systematic discrimination by MIDI regarding the selection of applicants based on their citizenship. As a US citizen, its no wonder you are given priority than applicants from third world countries. There are two class action suites against MIDI currently regarding systematic discrimination in selecting applicants. [2] [5] [7]

Ombudsman's Annual Report About MIDI says there are 31,378 applications pending as of March 31, 2017. [3]

> Quebec will still give them a leg up based on that experience if they later apply for permanent residence

That has been on hold with no explanation from MIDI since 2017. [4]

MIDI systematically discriminates applicants even in French priority category (PEQ) if they are from China or India [5]

A forum where applicants discuss about delays from MIDI [6]

[1] https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...

[2] https://imk.ca/en/rahim-and-rhia-basnet-v-midi/

[3] http://publications.virtualpaper.com/protecteur-du-citoyen/e...

[4] http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/02/27/des-travailleurs...

[5] http://chalkimmigration.com/2018/04/29/update-peq-group-judi...

[6] https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-boa...

[7] http://oreopoulos.faculty.economics.utoronto.ca/wp-content/u...

[jkaplowitz]

I'm going to have to defer a substantive reply due to weekend plans, but if I have time Sunday night or Monday and this topic is still receiving enough attention that it would be broadly useful, I'll do so then. (No point in a delayed reply if it's just two strangers arguing at each other in isolation from the community discussion.)

But again, many of these statements rely on inaccurate assumptions, overlook important nuances or past/present/near-future changes on each system, are not supported by the linked cites, or are otherwise inaccurate or leave the wrong impression.

I have no reason to doubt that you're discussing in good faith with good motives. But if you're learning conclusions like those in these comments from media pundits or social network posts, you may want to prefer primary sources, pay close attention to details when examining or discussing any source, and give targeted cites corresponding precisely to each point you want to support.

Have a good weekend, and see you here Sunday night or Monday if this post's conversation activity is still going.

[t1o5]

I have no further interest in taking this conversation forward. I immigrated to Canada on Express Entry in which I got points based on my skills and that too within 3 months.

I feel for my colleagues in Quebec whose applications are on hold in Quebec with no explanation from MIDI for the past one year. If you start asking cites for all these from official source which is MIDI, I can't give you because MIDI don't have it either.

If MIDI publishes those numbers, it will reveal their discriminatory practices. Don't bother about replying. Have a great weekend.

[Apocryphon]

I would appreciate the previous poster replying, as I believe his points will prove enlightening to this thread.

[jkaplowitz]

If you meant me, I'll give a high-level reply now since the thread has mostly died down but you were still interested. If you want me to dig into the nitty-gritty nuances I was disagreeing with, and provide cites, I still can, but that feels less useful than it would have been on Friday or Saturday.

First, I actually agree with the other poster that the processing times for Quebec are too long and too slow. I didn't get any special priority as a US citizen, despite what he may have thought - it took me almost the same 32 months he found to get Quebec's approval and around the same 15 months for Canada's. This should get fixed.

However, the same was true for the federal system until 2015's switch to Express Entry. It was heavily slow and heavily backlogged. Quebec's similar switch is happening... this year. Quebec's block on most new regular skilled worker applications is to allow that. I say "most" since several types of applications are still allowed, especially from students and workers currently here temporarily.

Once that switch happens, I hope the Quebec and federal governments can work together to minimize processing time. The federal government will have to dedicate more resources if they want to reduce the 15 month part of the process - that's purely in their hands and not up to Quebec. They do the same admissibility checks much faster for federal Express Entry applicants.

Quebec's system generally lags behind the federal one. Right now, that's bad due to the slow processing times. It was however good during the time when Harper was restricting access to the older federal skilled worker system, since Quebec's was then more open. I think overall it's good to have these two different systems with different politicians making changes on different time scales, since it provides more ways into the country.

The main other important point: Quebec's system is only first-come-first-serve to decide whose applications to consider and when. The actual decision, once they've decided to consider you, is already points-based with the types of merit systems desired by the other poster. The Publications Quebec website has their legally binding regulations with the full points system, and the Immigration Quebec website has (in French) their internal administrative procedures guide which is far from a black box. Similarly, the federal government's Express Entry system is only used to decide who can apply when - a different system is used to make the actual decision on the merits, and their skilled worker program has a very similar points system to Quebec's (with different weightings).

The slowness of the current system, while it's very worth fixing, doesn't have quite the same impact as it does in the US because the options while waiting are better. Quebec graduates have the same access to post-graduate open work permits as other graduates in Canada, as do their spouses. As one pursues the permanent residence paperwork, there are ways to get work permits, temporary stay permits, and so forth without the same kind of crappy restrictions and lotteries that the US imposes on H-1B applicants and their families. The bureaucracy gets looser once you get Quebec's approval but is overall much more manageable.

[t1o5]

In that case here are official links. Please note that Canadian permanent residency thru Quebec is a long two stage process. First obtain a CSQ document from Quebec and then apply to Federal (in paper format) which will grant you permanent residency.

* Processing delays as per MIDI's site for obtaining a CSQ:

Official Source: https://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/immigrate-settl...

* MIDI currently follows FCFS to issue CSQ, not point based merit system, which they are planning to implement soon.

" With the introduction of the new immigration system based on the declaration of interest, only candidates that meet the needs of Québec will be invited to submit an application for a selection certificate. This new system will make it possible to put an end to the principle of first come first serve, currently in effect for processing applications, and to considerably reduced average processing times. "

Official Source: https://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/informations/ne...

* Federal processing time delays(after obtaining a CSQ) for residency from Quebec: 15 months & counting.

Official Source: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/times/index.asp

( Select Economic Class > Skilled workers Quebec ,the processing times shows as 15 months.)

* For the year 2017, the processing time for applications for a selection certificate under the Regular Skilled Worker Program was 32 months.

Official Source: https://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/informations/ne...

* To summarize, an immigration application thru Regular Skilled worker stream will take 15 + 32 months to complete if it goes without any glitches, but MIDI is plagued with operational issues such as loss of applicant documents, huge technical problems with Mon Projet and the recent refugee situation.

Official Source: https://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/informations/ne...

Now if anyone applies in PEQ category, you will still be delayed by 15 months in Federal stage.

So which graduate or skilled worker worth their salt will try to immigrate or stay in Quebec after graduation ? They can easily get their permanent residency within months if they move to any other province other than Quebec through the Express Entry system and other provincial nomination programs.

Why do I say all this ? Because Quebec's immigration system is so obsolete that it doesn't give importance for merit. I was a victim of the broken H1B visa system and I immigrated to Canada thru Express Entry which gave importance to my skills. How I did it might be interesting too -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15452647

[branchless]

The language laws thing is not a big deal. People just get on with it.

Montreal is great. I'm here, and if my kids don't go into IT they will work in another sector and will be able to afford to live.

I'd consider SV a death sentence. Who wants to work when you will never achieve financial independence because you'll never own your own land? And if you have a huge mortgage you are your boss's bitch forever.

[okatsu]

Yeah I find the language laws thing funny. I've worked with a crapton of people who never had to learn a word of French, and if they ever have to, then so what? French is the language here. That's like complaining about Italian in Italy.

[twblalock]

I work in tech in Silicon Valley and most of my coworkers own their own homes or condos. It's not uncommon at all.

[branchless]

housing is clearly an enormous issue in SV, yours is anecdata.

For one:

http://observer.com/2018/03/silicon-valley-housing-market-dr...

[okatsu]

I'm a second-generation immigrant born and raised in Montreal.

Quebec's language is French and historically speaking it has every reason to attempt to protect it. Should immigration be more accommodating towards people willing to learn French? Probably. In my lifetime though I've mostly encountered anglophones who chose Quebec out of all provinces but then refused to speak the language, so shrug.

And yeah there are stupid politicians who say stupid things, just like in the States where some promise to throw out Mexicans and Muslims.

[Maven911]

Yes having witnessed it myself, it's tragic the self inflicted wounds Montreal takes, while peoplr still pretend it's a tech hub (only in the tiniest of sense)

[jkaplowitz]

For AI and ML, it now has R&D centers for Google, Facebook, and MS. It also has McGill University which is quite well regarded for AI. In that niche it's becoming a hub, though this trend is recent enough that I have to use the present progressive tense.