I'm wondering how that salary difference really is when comparing the cost of living of many Canadian cities vs Silicon Valley, the taxation rate and the social services provided (universal healthcare, etc).
That demographic you're referring to is no less likely to be involved in traffic accidents that can send you to the closest available hospital. In the US that means an ambulance bill and very likely a hospital bill that your insurance might not cover, and the high possibility of chronic pain that's not necessarily covered by your health insurance. And that's even before having to deal with lawyers in order to obtain compensation back from the driver's insurance company in order to repay the out of pocket expenses. (The system, at least in California is set up in such a way that the car insurance has to pay 3X the costs to divide in thirds for 1) your lawyer, 2) your insurance provider and 3) yourself.)
Give me a break. Healthcare in the US is a joke, but if you're on an engineer's salary and benefits plan, you're probably paying nothing for any of these things.
Protip: "treble damages" is not a thing California invented in order to pay legal fees
> if you're on an engineer's salary and benefits plan, you're probably paying nothing for any of these things.
My wife was hit by a driver while cycling. She was taken to an in-network hospital as it happened to be the closest one. A 10 block ride on an ambulance yielded bill for a few thousand dollars. On the day of the event, the only out of pocket expense was <100 USD, but since then we've incurred several thousand dollars in expenses to treat the consequences of that event.
You're right that as somebody with an engineer's salary who's been diligent in making sure we had savings for unforeseen events, we've been able to pay all of the required fees as they came, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken into account when talking about compensation across different countries, or that being young and healthy precludes needing health care.
> "treble damages" is not a thing California invented in order to pay legal fees
I prefaced with "at least in California" because it's the place where I've had to find this out. I'm more familiar with systems in other countries.
All lawyers that we had to contact (which was already a shocking thing to do for me) had the same payment structure and explained it the same way: there would be a settlement, to be divided equally by HC provider, lawyer's fees and victim. I mentioned this because I can assure you that most people that don't know the American system would be surprised about it.
I could tell you had a specific story, as you alluded to the details in your original comment, but again, these are the exceptions rather than the norm. I get it; my wife was in a car accident that sent her to the hospital for a week, almost exactly a year ago. I've gotten the $200k 'denied' explanation of benefits paperwork from the insurance company (and no doubt the total bill ran over $500k), I've been threatened with collections over a $3500 ambulance bill and had to sign up for the payment plan while I spend all the free time i can muster faxing paperwork to and fro with various insurance companies. It sucks, it's inefficient, and it's simply setting money and productivity on fire.. but ultimately, there's a chain of responsibility. It's the at-fault party's responsibility, whether you have to chase after their car insurance company or your own health insurance company.. eventually it can and should be covered if you're at a good job, but good god it's a nightmare to actually deal with.
In the end, though, I don't consider health insurance to be a cost an in-demand professional would factory into a decision to move from Canada to the US.
Yes, but most companies in this space provide some sort of healthcare, which covers a lot of that, and accidents are a small percentage of total healthcare outlays anyway. Much more healthcare spending goes to older people, for a much broader array of more common conditions than "got into a bad car accident".
Health insurance is much more expensive at 55 than at 25.
Younger people do have fewer needs to treat chronic illnesses. That doesn't mean that healthcare can never be a significant financial burden regardless.
- I've met people that have had terminal cancer in their very early 30s (didn't leave a giant bill to their state as this happened in the UK)
- I've had a friend that needed an ambulance for his pregnant wife from an airport (>10K USD in out of pocket expenses)
- I've been stabbed in an attempted robbery (again, no expense as this was in Argentina)
I think it's pretty clear from context that I was talking about average medical expenses by age, for which older people do pay much, much more.
Also, $10K is a low figure for medical expenses compared to how much one can spend. End of life care for the elderly can easily run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. My grandfather has been in and out of the hospital a lot this year with a broken hip, complications thereof, and fairly advanced dementia, and his covered medical expenses have been astronomical. He gets full-time care every waking moment, 7 days a week -- so that's several full-time salaries on top of medical expenses. $10K doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of how much it can cost to treat someone.
I believe that the disagreement we're having is born of what I'm possibly failing to do, which is getting the point across that talking about averages when the distribution is not anywhere close to normal is not useful and can be disastrous. If the average cost is maybe a few hundred dollars a month, but you have a low probability of having to pay several thousand dollars in an unlikely event, different people with different thresholds for risk will make different decisions. I'm just trying to make explicit to foreigners some things that are implicit to Americans so that they can make decide for themselves if it is worth it. I've clearly decided it was worth it, given I'm in the US now, but there's plenty I learned only once I was here that I would have appreciated knowing beforehands.
As an aside, the 10K figure was just he ambulance ride. I'm supplying that as a lower bound for the cost on an accident, which people in other countries would not believe.
Born/raised in Toronto, been in SF for ~4 years. It's not even close. Yes, my rent in SF is high, but my total comp is six figures higher than what I could earn in Toronto. Wages are considerably higher, even when you factor in cost of living, services, and everything else.
The cost of living in the major Canadian tech cities (Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa) is lower than Silicon Valley, sure, but Vancouver is still one of the most expensive cities to live in the world. The drop in salary is way too low when compared to the cost of living.
The cost of living between Vancouver and Seattle is very comparable, especially when you account for your biggest input costs, housing, food & transportation. The Salaries most definitely are not. The biggies south of the border set the baseline salary for everyone; when they move north they match the existing, much lower rates.
If I was a new-ish grad and wanted to stay in the PNW there's not a chance I'd pick Vancouver. Seattle has all the same electric cars, dog bakeries and yarn stores that you'll find in the lower mainland, and heading to Whistler for the weekend with more US greenbacks in your pocket would be a lot more fun...
I can't believe how much Vancouver has changed (as far as attractiveness for recent grads) over the last twenty years.
When I turned 20 in 1997, Vancouver seemed like a personal version of heaven. Rents were more expensive than where I'm from, but that increase was easily offset by the ability to easily double my salary. Real estate was heavy, but not so heavy that it seemed unobtainable. Add in what I perceived to be real opportunity to work in an interesting field, a highly educated workforce and the natural beauty and I was completely sold.
Today, even if I were twenty again, I can't think of a single legitimate reason why I would choose Vancouver over Seattle.
The big tech hubs in CA (Toronto, Vancouver) are expensive and traffic is absolutely awful. A quick glance online shows average apartment prices are nearly $2000/mo. So it's almost like you're living in Seattle anyway.
I don't think CA has many technical equivalents to Ohama or Columbus that combine high salaries from numerous F500 companies with Midwestern COL.
Other than Montreal's cheap cost of living and good public transportation, everything else is not so great. Talented engineers graduating from McGill and Concordia are leaving the province in droves because of Quebec's weird language laws [1], high taxes and obsolete immigration system. (Eg: KFC was renamed to PFK to comply with the language laws)
MIDI, the immigration department of Quebec which has fully autonomy for selecting immigrants to Quebec fails to attract or retain the foreign talents. A highly skilled worker is not given any kind of priority in their immigration application.
On the other hand, if you only have a school diploma, but can speak fluent French, you get the top priority in Quebec immigration.
If you are highly skilled, but do not know a word of French, it will take a minimum of 4 years to immigrate to Quebec [2]. Montreal is just riding on their old inertia. There is a huge shortage of talent in Quebec. The policies of immigration dept. of Quebec and Quebec's language policies will drive Quebec down the drain. Some politicians have even announced that if they get elected, they will deport all the non French speaking immigrants out of Quebec.
So any startups looking to start their business in Quebec, you have been warned. Montreal is a great tourist city, no contest. But not so great to live or work for tech. If you immigrate to Quebec, your kids should go to French school only.[4]
I'm a US-citizen immigrant to Canada, selected by Quebec and living in Montreal. Many of these assertions, though commonly believed, are half true.
The Global Skills Strategy that the federal government here is running includes tech workers, and yes it includes Quebec. MIDI has facilitated processing for many of those. For kids of people here on temporary work permits, including that type, English schools are allowed.
For permanent immigration, MIDI currently gives more points for an applicant with a bachelor's degree in computer science from anywhere in the world - regardless of language knowledge - than it does for a high school-educated applicant who is fluent in French. There are lots of factors that affect the score. While they do value French ability more than English, it's not as overwhelming as that suggests.
Their autonomy in selecting temporary workers (including tech workers) is not full, btw - there are many cases where a Labour Market Impact Assessment is not needed, and then Quebec doesn't have veto power on those workers. Quebec will still give them a leg up based on that experience if they later apply for permanent residence - yes, even without French knowledge.
Last, KFC did rename themselves to PFK due to the language politics, but that was a business decision, not legally required. Subway, Banana Republic, Canadian Tire, and many other Anglo-named companies are still using their Anglo names as their brands here. It was similarly voluntary that Shopper's Drug Mart goes by Pharmaprix here.
As for taxes: it doesn't seem higher overall than NYC, a major US tech hub, and it includes a lot more for the money.
The Global Skills Strategy is only for a certain category of employers, mainly large ones. A startup cannot use that to hire a worker. [1]
> more points for an applicant with a bachelor's degree in computer science from anywhere in the world
Quebec's immigration system is not point based as of now. Its FCFS. Though they say its points based, there is no indication from statistics that MIDI selects workers based on points. In fact, MIDI is a blackbox when it comes to revealing the strategy that they use to select workers while Federal Express Entry is fully transparent. Bachelor's degree holders in Comp. Sc are waiting for more than 5 years for a CSQ from Quebec, while they can immigrate to other provinces within months !
There are reports of systematic discrimination by MIDI regarding the selection of applicants based on their citizenship. As a US citizen, its no wonder you are given priority than applicants from third world countries. There are two class action suites against MIDI currently regarding systematic discrimination in selecting applicants. [2] [5] [7]
Ombudsman's Annual Report About MIDI says there are 31,378 applications pending as of March 31, 2017. [3]
> Quebec will still give them a leg up based on that experience if they later apply for permanent residence
That has been on hold with no explanation from MIDI since 2017. [4]
MIDI systematically discriminates applicants even in French priority category (PEQ) if they are from China or India [5]
A forum where applicants discuss about delays from MIDI [6]
I'm going to have to defer a substantive reply due to weekend plans, but if I have time Sunday night or Monday and this topic is still receiving enough attention that it would be broadly useful, I'll do so then. (No point in a delayed reply if it's just two strangers arguing at each other in isolation from the community discussion.)
But again, many of these statements rely on inaccurate assumptions, overlook important nuances or past/present/near-future changes on each system, are not supported by the linked cites, or are otherwise inaccurate or leave the wrong impression.
I have no reason to doubt that you're discussing in good faith with good motives. But if you're learning conclusions like those in these comments from media pundits or social network posts, you may want to prefer primary sources, pay close attention to details when examining or discussing any source, and give targeted cites corresponding precisely to each point you want to support.
Have a good weekend, and see you here Sunday night or Monday if this post's conversation activity is still going.
The language laws thing is not a big deal. People just get on with it.
Montreal is great. I'm here, and if my kids don't go into IT they will work in another sector and will be able to afford to live.
I'd consider SV a death sentence. Who wants to work when you will never achieve financial independence because you'll never own your own land? And if you have a huge mortgage you are your boss's bitch forever.
Yeah I find the language laws thing funny. I've worked with a crapton of people who never had to learn a word of French, and if they ever have to, then so what? French is the language here. That's like complaining about Italian in Italy.
I'm a second-generation immigrant born and raised in Montreal.
Quebec's language is French and historically speaking it has every reason to attempt to protect it. Should immigration be more accommodating towards people willing to learn French? Probably. In my lifetime though I've mostly encountered anglophones who chose Quebec out of all provinces but then refused to speak the language, so shrug.
And yeah there are stupid politicians who say stupid things, just like in the States where some promise to throw out Mexicans and Muslims.
Yes having witnessed it myself, it's tragic the self inflicted wounds Montreal takes, while peoplr still pretend it's a tech hub (only in the tiniest of sense)
For AI and ML, it now has R&D centers for Google, Facebook, and MS. It also has McGill University which is quite well regarded for AI. In that niche it's becoming a hub, though this trend is recent enough that I have to use the present progressive tense.
Is Canadian healthcare any good? Where I live, you pay for this privilege quite a lot of tax at still you have to go privately, because the quality is just not worth your health. I really wish "universal healthcare" was scrapped, so I could afford better services privately.
Canadian living in the US: in my experience Canadian health care is as good or better than in the US. Waiting times are probably somewhat longer for non-emergencies because of triaging, but (again, my experience, subjective, etc) I've often felt doctors are more interested in providing care and less interested in unnecessary upselling.
I've only ever lived in the GTA, though. It's my understanding that in many places away from major cities there can be a shortage of doctors.
Canadian living in the US: in my experience Canadian health care is as good or better than in the US.
Canadian living in US as well. The one thing I've noticed is the choice of healthcare in the US (for those with good insurance). Have cancer? Pick the best hospital you can find in the area. In Canada, you might live next to a world-class institute or it might just be a regular hospital. That's where you go.
But yes, healthcare in Canada is very good. The other thing I would call out is that experimental/cutting edge technology is often available in the US before Canada.
Yup, Canadian healthcare is generally excellent. The main complaints thar hit the news are generally long wait times for elective surgeries like knee fixes.
For anything other than that I've had effectively zero wait time and excellent care. There are even free health lines you can call for basic info.
Canadian services are typically good especially for urgent care things, I only have gone private on one occasion and that was for an MRI years ago when there were fewer of them available. I had a tear in my MCL and they wanted to see the degree (relatively low priority, it wasn't a full tear and I didnt need surgery). The wait for the MRI was ~6 weeks but so just paid out of pocket privately and had the results sent to my doctor. Took 2 days and he got what he needed.
Canada has good Healthcare up to the level of US medtech about 20 years ago. Anything invented in the last 20 years is not available through Canada Health Care. They will have an occasional crock of s* like one or two radiation machines for cancer for an entire province of 5 million people.
I think the thing that improves country wide healthcare outcomes in Canada is that everyone can go to a doctor. However, outcomes for complex cases are not as good.
Here the problem is that specialists aren't that great, and combined with long wait time that leads you nowhere you potentially put your life at risk. Complaint procedures are as bureaucratic as possible so you get no redress.
Income taxes BC <> CA are pretty similar, but other taxes aren't. Gas is the equivalent of $6/gal in Canada right now (due to taxes), sales tax is 12% and a lot of products (electronics, etc) are just generally more expensive in Canada.
This is something I've been comparing. I'd pay a little less in income tax in California actually for my brackets, but even though rents etc in SV are higher, I also would be paying less for gas, groceries and any entertainment and tech purchases.
I think the individual value of most social services is pretty low to people in this demographic (recent graduates taking software jobs in the US).
Sure, universal healthcare is great, but US companies also provide health insurance.