[Voodoo463]

I am very happy this is happening, but I remain pessimistic about this. I have been in Paris many times and even lived there for a bit. As far as cities go with job infrastructure, Paris is non functioning. The city itself is inherently flawed in job growth and management. There is a lack of variety in jobs. There ARE a variety of jobs, but the disparity between amount and desire is huge.

When I was in Paris the only people I met were those majoring in Finance, the amount of computer programmers or engineers at the universities were extremely low. Why? Because the jobs just aren't there. Paris is and has always been a hub for Money. People then majored and specialized in Money. It is where the Money is; Money is where the jobs would be.

Don't let the media blitz carry you away at the announcement of Station F, it is a media wave designed to tell people, 'look... we are diversifying our economy' as Berlin and London have also been attempting (rather... ineffectively for Germany). The media blitz is a way of telling individuals in France (and all of Europe actually) that this is where tech jobs can be found... so make the decision to major in tech.

What I imagine will happen is: many people from Eastern Europe (strong scattering of micro tech scenes without sufficient exposure) will flock to Station F to take advantage of it's proximity to all of the local funding that can be found in Paris. Paris is a place like London and New York where people park their money for expansion. Station F is just another place for these people to park their funds.

We could be seeing the beginning of a rocking station F, or, we could be seeing the beginning of a very large media hype designed to encourage diversifying the economy that will be the beginning of a very slow 'meh' Station F.

[stymaar]

> When I was in Paris the only people I met were those majoring in Finance, the amount of computer programmers or engineers at the universities were extremely low. Why? Because the jobs just aren't there. Paris is and has always been a hub for Money.

Working as a software engineer in Paris, and having most of my friends doing the same, I think your were juste living in a bubble.

Furthemore, french people don't go to university to study engineering, they go to engineering schools, which are dedicated structures. Some are public, generalist, and really famous (École Polytechnique where Fabrice Bellard comes from, École Centrale where VLC was created, École des Mines) but there are also a lot of smaller private and specialized school (Epitech, Efrei, Epita or “42” for computer sciences for instance).

In France, people mostly go to university to study law, medicine, social sciences or humanities.

[tarsinge]

Here is more context on that : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles

E.g. for Polytechnique : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_%C3%89cole_Polytechniq...

[pmtarantino]

Hi, how is the scene for software engineers in Paris? I am getting a master degree in Computer Science soon (I hope) and I would love to relocate to Europe, mainly something like Madrid, Paris or London. How hard is to get a job in Paris? How is the payment? Is it good to have a good life or barely to rent a small apt? Thank you.

[stymaar]

Paris has a lot of companies hiring, with a lot of variation in term of job quality or salaries, but it's usually a lot less than in the US. You can probably get between €40k* and €50k* a year for your first position after studies.

Cost of living is pretty high (still less than London but the gap narrowed in the past few years). Count €1000+ if you want to live in a comfy flat in the inner city, which you do if you want to have reasonable commute duration, and enjoy the nightlife/culture.

I've been living in Paris for 3 years now, and before I lived almost a year in Boston, 6 month in Berlin and several month in London. Paris is really close to London on many topics (cost of living, commute time, nightlife, cultural events) but the quality of life is way better (weather, food) and Paris as a city is really beautiful. Berlin is really different from Paris, but really enjoyable also ! But eastern Germany's economy is still lagging far behind overall Germany and Berlin's job market is quite poor.

The biggest problem I have with Paris is the real estate, renting a flat is expensive but not extreme, but as soon as you want to buy something, it becomes crazy.

*salaries are usually counted before taxes. With a €40k salary, you'll earn around €28k after all taxes.

[gbersac]

Yes but you also have a lot of things for free in France, mainly healthcare, a lot more vacation than in the US...

[Jyaif]

Can you name some companies that give you 40k-50k when coming out of school? I'm honestly interested.

[tajen]

According to personal examples, Atos (service company in IT) paid 34k. If you're good, you may indeed change jobs 6 months later and get 40k, but for 50k out-of-school as a programmer, no.

To me the real problem with housing in Paris is, landlords request to see 2 years of tax sheet. When coming back from Australia, I just decided it would be too hard for me to find housing in Paris, and created my startup in Lyon.

[jclos]

From experience, Lyon, Toulouse and Montpellier are all around much better places to live & work in than Paris (especially if you are just relocating from another country).

[stymaar]

> To me the real problem with housing in Paris is, landlords request to see 2 years of tax sheet.

Landlords are insane in Paris ! I had a friend who made 48k in his first job, he came from Grenoble and his parents weren't rich enough to "vouch" for him, so he spent almost a month before finding a flat, because landlords rejected him all the time, despite his salary.

[stymaar]

50k+, probably none (at least with a CS background, finance with a math background is another story).

With a diploma from a good engineering school and a previous work experience (internship and/or apprenticeship) the companies I talked about in [1] will pay you above 40k when coming out of school. With the two financial companies in the beginning being above 45k.

The main problem I see with developer employment in Paris, is the weight of the diploma in the remuneration. People with a university degree being offered around 30k most of the time.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13117207

[user5994461]

I'll make it short and to the point: Do NOT ever relocate to Paris. This is a terrible place for tech workers.

[onli]

It's a terrible place to live in general. If not being absolutely in love with the city.

I got a lot of interesting offers in Berlin, for what it's worth. And I expect that Berlin is a lot more agreeable to live in.

[pron]

Can you elaborate?

[user5994461]

Pay is shit. I have friends who make more in all other countries of Europe (Austria, Germany, Poland) and that's not even considering the costs of living (that is inferior to Paris).

You will have huge trouble because you don't speak French.

You will have huge trouble for all administrative stuff. Like, it's hell to rent a flat even if you could pay 12 months in advance, because there isn't any AND the agencies will reject you because you don't have a history in France nor French parents with income to "vouch" for you.

Most importantly. There are no good jobs. The startup ecosystem is a joke and there is no Google/Facebook/Apple/Uber/AirBnb to work for.

And finally, the quality of living is mediocre, at best.

[stymaar]

1. You are mostly right, but you are also exaggerating : in Poland you barely make half of what you get in Paris. (But the cost of living is also way inferior)

2. that's absolutely right, but working in Germany without speaking German wasn't really a good experience of mine either.

3. that's cute. Administrations are horrible everywhere, and it's even worst if it's not your country because you don't know what “everybody knows”.

4. Google is in Paris, but if you're looking for a good job, you probably don't want to work for Google anyways. (At least I don't, since I've had several bad feedbacks from both French or American offices)

5. this is highly subjective, I won't argue over this one.

[benou]

YMMV.

I relocated from Paris to SF as a senior dev, and I am going back after 1 year. Yes I was making like 3x more in salary, but then housing in SF cost at least 2x more than in Paris, commute is just as bad, healthcare is a mess etc. And taxes are not that low :) - lower than in France, but you do not get much back, ie no healthcare, no retirement, not very good infrastructures etc. For me overall financially it is more interesting to go back.

Regarding jobs, I never had any problems to find interesting jobs in Paris, but I am working in embedded/low-level/networking/telcos systems, and I think Europe is skewed towards this kind of stuff whereas SV is skewed towards web/mobile.

To be honest I think it really depends of your lifestyle and priorities. I really enjoyed my year in SF, it is a beautiful city with great peoples, but I'll be happy to get back to Paris.

[walshemj]

so Engineering degrees are second class institutions then ?

[nfc]

In fact it's university that is seen as second tier with respect to engineering schools except for a few majors like medicine and law. (I'm not french but have lived in France a few years)

[user5994461]

Yes.

The french have had dedicated engineering schools for a while, which are good, and most are very cheap (state sponsored).

There are many universities and they cover all topics (also state sponsored). Including law, finance, engineering, medicine, psychology, social sciences...

Some stuff (law/medicine) can only be done through a university (they're the only one to get the state-certificate to exercise the job). When it comes to engineering, universities offer it but the degrees are considered "shit-tier".

Note: They are not that bad per-se. They just get no considerations for old cultural reasons.

[laurentoget]

Definitely the other way around. Most french CEOs come from those engineering schools.

[jmeister]

I don't see why this is bad - I echoed this sentiment in my previous comment. Not every city/country needs to turn into SF/US.

Most people associate Paris with old world charm, weltsmerchz, brooding philosophers and artists, sassy and fashionable women etc. - none of this is compatible with neckbeards with macbooks, obsession with money/productivity/growth that a thriving startup scene inevitably brings. Let it stay that way.

[Heraclite]

I agree as well.

I find it bordeline cringey to see how other countries try to imitate "SV culture".

it's one thing to be inspired by something, and no question we should all admire what SV has created. On the other hand, I dream of France creating products that reflect its own identity and culture. It's not like we don't have anything in the past ot get our inspiration from.

I wish we didn't try to become SV, but try to become our better self, so to speak.

[ewolf]

I strongly agree. Nonetheless, many places aspire to be a second Silicon Valley, and it's certainly worthwhile pointing out how close or far away they are from that goal. In particular, those behind Station F probably want their project to develop in a SF/US-like direction.

It would be interesting to see if there can be a third way - an attractive location for startups with a culture that is open to entrepreneurship without being overly obsessed with quick unicorn money and without being entirely dominated by startups and VCs?

[gbersac]

Being a nice city is not enough to bring money. And you need a lot of money to make the city stay nice.

[jmeister]

Paris has been doing fine without money from tech for thousands of years thank you very much

[walterstucco]

Paris is a terrible city to live and work, unless you are there because of your job in financial/political institutions.

[leaveyou]

I don't know why the downvotes.. Very high rents for rather low quality (by the european standards). Long and unpredictable commutes, frequent problems on the overcrowded lines. Serious pollution: today the subway/metro was free of charge for everyone in order to encourage people to use the (already crowded) public transportation instead of cars to reduce the thick smog which accumulated over the city.

http://www.leparisien.fr/info-paris-ile-de-france-oise/trans...

[kentiko]

What you are saying makes me really sad. I live in Paris and I just graduated (CS). I am currently working as a java developer in a large company, the job is incredibly boring and I feel like I am not learning anything. Interesting jobs seems out of reach of a junior developer. I don't think Station F is going to improve things much. I am now thinking about moving somewhere else to find a better job.

[pyrale]

There are good places ; if you aren't happy, move. Just don't pick a contractor job, and make sure you don't pick a job where people just expect you to move dirt around.

[user5994461]

There are good places in Paris but they can be counted on your fingers. That's not enough jobs even if we only consider the population of 3lite 10x developers.

[jclos]

Change job and relocate, even if temporarily! Devs jobs are plenty, and you should take advantage of it while it's still the case. Working abroad for instance is a good way to get out of your comfort zone and keep on learning.

[stymaar]

I know that feeling. Big companies are a scam. The good thing is: there is a lot of start-ups in Paris, many of them with open positions.

It's not that hard to find a place to work in Paris, it's hard for employers to find good candidates. I've spent most of the year looking for developers at Streamroot [1] and we struggled to have applicants. We hired 5 persons in the first 6 month of the year and still have a lot of open positions.

[1] https://www.streamroot.io/careers

[Gmo]

Hey Kentiko,

I don't know if you will read this post, because it's a bit late and you don't have any mail/twitter on your profile.

But we are looking for developers, including junior ones, in Paris or Nantes, if you're interested :

http://www.welcometothejungle.co/companies/lucca/jobs

Cheers, Guillaume

[theparanoid]

I went remote.

[y04nn]

Where?

[VeejayRampay]

Read that whole barrage and all I could think about is: "Man it must suck to be a pessimistic person, you only get to think about the failure of a school that hasn't yet opened instead of seeing the potential".

[tajen]

> pessimistic person

France makes people sad. One in 3 adult takes psychotropic drugs[1]. I lived in Australia and I was happy every day, in France there's just no good news. A brilliant example is, GP mentionned buildings are under-maintained, that's an excellent summary. It's the no-politics week so I won't dive into the past-and-future causes of this chronic stress, but it exists.

[1] http://www.france24.com/en/20140520-france-drug-addiction-1-...

[VeejayRampay]

Not really specific to France though. We just have a huge pharmaceutical sector here pushing pills with heavy marketing.

[Heraclite]

I think you're seeing the glass half empty.

Paris is not perfect but I don't see how this kind of initiative couldn't be a move in the right direction.

About the money part, Paris is far from being London or NYC, the gravity center isn't financial services, at least you don't feel it when living there.

There is great talent (engineer+design), I'd say the marketing overall is weak and too timid.

[user5994461]

I confirm that. There is indeed a huge amount of wasted talents because there is no one to hire them.

[AlwaysRock]

I met a senior developer who worked for a large consulting firm in france. He got a greencard and moved to the USA. He was making something close to 50K USA in France with 9 years of C# development experience. It took a while to convince him that he could land a position at 100K+ here. Is it lack of jobs that causes this disparity?

[renaudg]

You really can't compare pre-tax salaries between countries with such a completely different taxation and benefits structure.

The take home pay certainly is much, much lower in France than in the US, but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare, free university, pension contributions, 5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things. It all adds up.

I'm French, working in London and I've been happy with the trade off of more pay for a thinner social safety net, but I know it would be foolish to compare wages directly. I suspect the difference is much less spectacular with everything taken into account.

[lacampbell]

He is earning 50k more in the US. Are you insinuating that the social welfare state of France provides close to 50k worth of services!? Because that would have to be true for the position in the US to be at all comparable.

This ignores the much lower price of consumables in the US as well.

[renaudg]

Depends on your individual situation, but it's not as outlandish as it sounds, see this story: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-lamar-french-heal...

[lacampbell]

Unicorn story. How about the more common case of "healthy young person with no assets or savings bears a disproportionate burden by being taxed an outlandish amount for an inefficient health care system mainly catering to the elderly"? I suppose that isn't suitable for an LA Times piece.

[renaudg]

Whether the case is "more common" is debatable (and besides the point, unless you'd like to challenge the whole premise of sharing risk through insurance). As it turns out, I am that healthy young person from the country with socialized healthcare who temporarily went to work in the neighboring country with higher take-home pay, so I think I can tell you a thing or two about the trade-off.

As much as I usually love to hate on the French system, it's hard to describe to someone who never experienced it the feeling of security that comes with the knowledge that every treatment decision for you is made by your doctor on the basis of best medical outcome, period.

Never before I moved to the UK and discovered private insurance through work had I even heard about "preexisting conditions", "lifetime limits", and the whole idea of having to talk to some guy in a call center about your ailments to get pre-approval, which you might or might not get based on whether this will affect their finance guy's Q4 targets.

Oh and "inefficient health care system"... absolutely, if by that you meant the US system : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-healt...

[user5994461]

We shouldn't compare... Right.

Let's just say that it's hard to make much more past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. And the accommodation costs the same number as in London (at 1 EUR = 1 GBP).

[gbersac]

I am a junior developer and make 2400€ after tax a month. Being paid less than 2100€ a month after tax just after school is considered under payment.

[user5994461]

2400€ per month = 48k€ gross per year (on 13 months).

Are you really getting that as a junior? I highly doubt so.

I bet that you're not accounting for what would be translated literally as "the income tax". Wait till you get the 3k€ tax bill at the end of the year ;)

[stymaar]

42k gross a year (not uncommon for a junior from a good engineering school) => 2695 net a month before income tax. (12 month)

Income tax for 32340€ (assuming you're single) => 3093€ a year

net salary after tax: 2437€

CQFD.

[gbersac]

I have 38k gross a year. A little bit over 2400 after tax a month. I know friends who earn more. I don't know how much tax I'll get at the end of the year. Probably going to hurt :(

[fsloth]

"Let's just say that it's hard to make anything past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. "

If we are speaking of software engineering salaries that's really low. In Helsinki capable professionals can get 'easily' 3000€ after taxes per month (not in all companies though). If one has proven track record, is undoubtedly in 'smart and gets things done' category, etc.

[stymaar]

> Let's just say that it's hard to make anything past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris.

Really ? Shortly after I graduated, I've been hired at 2700€ (net salary minus income tax). If you have professional experience and are paid below 2500€, you really need a new job ! (all my friends are hiring, feel free to contact me on twitter)

[user5994461]

Not possible. That's 55k€ gross over 13 months.

That's a hard number to get for someone with 5-10 years experience. Sorry to say but there is no way you got that after graduation ^^

Even if you are part of the "privileged schools" with a special network of friends and "copinage", in finance. That's really really tough.

Would you mind sharing the gross salary number actually written on the contract and the name of the company and the careers page :D ?

> If you have professional experience and are paid below 2500€, you really need a new job ! (all my friends are hiring, feel free to contact me on twitter).

I had some professional experiences at the time and there was no way I'd get anywhere near that.

I've left the country since because I'd rather leave the street than live in the street.

Let's talk business. Let's imagine for a minute a guy who is handling the core trading infrastructure, for a financial institution, responsible for over 1 bazillion dollar in assets.

What kind of career would you or your friends offer back in France for that kind of profile?

[stymaar]

> Not possible. That's 55k€ gross over 13 months.

As I already replied to your other comment, your calculation is flawed (partially because of your 13 month stuff but not only)

> Even if you are part of the "privileged schools" with a special network of friends and "copinage", in finance.

I'm from that kind of school, and in finance you don't really need network or "copinage" to get 55k a year. With it, a few manage to reach above 100k.

> Let's imagine for a minute a guy who is handling the core trading infrastructure, for a financial institution, responsible for over 1 bazillion dollar in assets.

I'm not really in the financial business, but I'm not sure you could find work in «trading infrastructure» here in Paris. Maybe BNP has some stuff, but I know many banks have settled in London for that part of their business.

That being said, you could easily find a job above 60k in Paris with this background. Streamroot[1] had a position for this exact profile several month ago. Of course it's probably not much compared to what you earn in the trading business, but saying that 2500€ a month is impossible in Paris is just wrong nowadays.

I don't know how the market was several years ago, but I think you really underestimate the shortage of developers in Paris at the moment.

[1] https://www.streamroot.io/careers

[Heraclite]

I's also a cultural one, at least regarding the developers. The status of the developer is still considered lower as middle management. It's slowly changing though, as developers are becoming more and more respected. But we're far from SF where developers have a higher symbolic status and where the good ones get huge salaries.

I never understood why some companies in France are reluctant to pay well their developers, especially startups with funding.

[younes0]

Because SF startups ROI are much higher ?

[gbersac]

I am a software developer in Paris and never heard about shortage of dev jobs. In fact this the opposite, all recruiters struggle to find devs.

[stymaar]

I can totally relate to this !

[y04nn]

It's true that Paris is not best choice, but there is many tech company on the outskirt of Paris, albeit small ones.

[_kyran]

can you share any examples?

[alain94040]

The successful ones are now Parrot and Criteo. Remember those? But there are plenty of small startups that are doing challenging stuff. Interested in machine learning? Check out mipsology.com

If you want to be paid well, you need to work for a company where the technology is the product. Writing Java for a bank? The software is not the product, so you won't be respected like in Silicon Valley.

[user5994461]

Depends what you mean by Bank. If you talk Investment Bank, Edge Funds and HFT you'll probably be fine ;)

But those are in NY/London, not Paris.

[y04nn]

I don't know why but from my experience there is many PME woking as startups in the south west of Paris specially in embedded dev and video. Maybe for web dev they are more located "intra-muros".

[walterstucco]

I can: Blizzard for example. But I would never live in Paris in my life

[joncp]

Interesting point, which reminds me of one theory about why Silicon Valley took off: it was thousands of miles from the meddling money people on the East Coast, back when those miles mattered.

[hocuspocus]

That's a very interesting theory. In London you can clearly see the finance industry's influence on the shape of the tech sector.