[AlwaysRock]

I met a senior developer who worked for a large consulting firm in france. He got a greencard and moved to the USA. He was making something close to 50K USA in France with 9 years of C# development experience. It took a while to convince him that he could land a position at 100K+ here. Is it lack of jobs that causes this disparity?

[renaudg]

You really can't compare pre-tax salaries between countries with such a completely different taxation and benefits structure.

The take home pay certainly is much, much lower in France than in the US, but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare, free university, pension contributions, 5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things. It all adds up.

I'm French, working in London and I've been happy with the trade off of more pay for a thinner social safety net, but I know it would be foolish to compare wages directly. I suspect the difference is much less spectacular with everything taken into account.

[lacampbell]

He is earning 50k more in the US. Are you insinuating that the social welfare state of France provides close to 50k worth of services!? Because that would have to be true for the position in the US to be at all comparable.

This ignores the much lower price of consumables in the US as well.

[renaudg]

Depends on your individual situation, but it's not as outlandish as it sounds, see this story: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-lamar-french-heal...

[lacampbell]

Unicorn story. How about the more common case of "healthy young person with no assets or savings bears a disproportionate burden by being taxed an outlandish amount for an inefficient health care system mainly catering to the elderly"? I suppose that isn't suitable for an LA Times piece.

[renaudg]

Whether the case is "more common" is debatable (and besides the point, unless you'd like to challenge the whole premise of sharing risk through insurance). As it turns out, I am that healthy young person from the country with socialized healthcare who temporarily went to work in the neighboring country with higher take-home pay, so I think I can tell you a thing or two about the trade-off.

As much as I usually love to hate on the French system, it's hard to describe to someone who never experienced it the feeling of security that comes with the knowledge that every treatment decision for you is made by your doctor on the basis of best medical outcome, period.

Never before I moved to the UK and discovered private insurance through work had I even heard about "preexisting conditions", "lifetime limits", and the whole idea of having to talk to some guy in a call center about your ailments to get pre-approval, which you might or might not get based on whether this will affect their finance guy's Q4 targets.

Oh and "inefficient health care system"... absolutely, if by that you meant the US system : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-healt...

[lacampbell]

I'm not American. I'm from a country with somewhat socialized healthcare (New Zealand).

Americas healthcare is not truly private either - there's a lot of state intervention in it. They manage to get the worst of both worlds due to the inefficiency of the federal government.

[user5994461]

We shouldn't compare... Right.

Let's just say that it's hard to make much more past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. And the accommodation costs the same number as in London (at 1 EUR = 1 GBP).

[gbersac]

I am a junior developer and make 2400€ after tax a month. Being paid less than 2100€ a month after tax just after school is considered under payment.

[user5994461]

2400€ per month = 48k€ gross per year (on 13 months).

Are you really getting that as a junior? I highly doubt so.

I bet that you're not accounting for what would be translated literally as "the income tax". Wait till you get the 3k€ tax bill at the end of the year ;)

[stymaar]

42k gross a year (not uncommon for a junior from a good engineering school) => 2695 net a month before income tax. (12 month)

Income tax for 32340€ (assuming you're single) => 3093€ a year

net salary after tax: 2437€

CQFD.

[user5994461]

42k doable. Not easy, but doable. (I suppose fairly reasonable if you're from a Parisian school, you know the area and live there already, plus you can handle the Google interviews).

My calculator gives 2336 EUR per month on 12 months. (2156 EUR on 13 months).

The thing is, you're on 12 months so it's better than the estimation I gave initially. You're lucky in a sense, many places are forcing 13 months contract nowadays, which instantly steals 1/12 of your income.

Anyway, I consider that it fits the definition of "not much more than 2k". That will plateau [counter-]exponentially fast, don't expect to get 3k anytime soon :D

[gbersac]

I have 38k gross a year. A little bit over 2400 after tax a month. I know friends who earn more. I don't know how much tax I'll get at the end of the year. Probably going to hurt :(

[user5994461]

2600 EUR of income tax, if you worked the whole year and was at 38k from the start.

Note that it's delayed by one year, you'll pay now for the year before.

[fsloth]

"Let's just say that it's hard to make anything past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. "

If we are speaking of software engineering salaries that's really low. In Helsinki capable professionals can get 'easily' 3000€ after taxes per month (not in all companies though). If one has proven track record, is undoubtedly in 'smart and gets things done' category, etc.

[stymaar]

> Let's just say that it's hard to make anything past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris.

Really ? Shortly after I graduated, I've been hired at 2700€ (net salary minus income tax). If you have professional experience and are paid below 2500€, you really need a new job ! (all my friends are hiring, feel free to contact me on twitter)

[user5994461]

Not possible. That's 55k€ gross over 13 months.

That's a hard number to get for someone with 5-10 years experience. Sorry to say but there is no way you got that after graduation ^^

Even if you are part of the "privileged schools" with a special network of friends and "copinage", in finance. That's really really tough.

Would you mind sharing the gross salary number actually written on the contract and the name of the company and the careers page :D ?

> If you have professional experience and are paid below 2500€, you really need a new job ! (all my friends are hiring, feel free to contact me on twitter).

I had some professional experiences at the time and there was no way I'd get anywhere near that.

I've left the country since because I'd rather leave the street than live in the street.

Let's talk business. Let's imagine for a minute a guy who is handling the core trading infrastructure, for a financial institution, responsible for over 1 bazillion dollar in assets.

What kind of career would you or your friends offer back in France for that kind of profile?

[stymaar]

> Not possible. That's 55k€ gross over 13 months.

As I already replied to your other comment, your calculation is flawed (partially because of your 13 month stuff but not only)

> Even if you are part of the "privileged schools" with a special network of friends and "copinage", in finance.

I'm from that kind of school, and in finance you don't really need network or "copinage" to get 55k a year. With it, a few manage to reach above 100k.

> Let's imagine for a minute a guy who is handling the core trading infrastructure, for a financial institution, responsible for over 1 bazillion dollar in assets.

I'm not really in the financial business, but I'm not sure you could find work in «trading infrastructure» here in Paris. Maybe BNP has some stuff, but I know many banks have settled in London for that part of their business.

That being said, you could easily find a job above 60k in Paris with this background. Streamroot[1] had a position for this exact profile several month ago. Of course it's probably not much compared to what you earn in the trading business, but saying that 2500€ a month is impossible in Paris is just wrong nowadays.

I don't know how the market was several years ago, but I think you really underestimate the shortage of developers in Paris at the moment.

[1] https://www.streamroot.io/careers

[user5994461]

All the SSII and the few dev shops I've seen are doing 13 months. Just my experience ^^

> I'm from that kind of school, and in finance you don't really need network or "copinage" to get 55k a year. With it, a few manage to reach above 100k.

I just checked your linkedin (and you should see mine). You're from the Ecole Centrale Paris. You absolutely have the network and you're privileged. You absolutely underestimate how hard it is to get a job from someone who is not from one of these schools, didn't study in Paris and has no friend/family in Paris.

> With it, a few manage to reach above 100k.

Yeah sure the legendary top 1% that every one heard about. Do you actually know the guy and checked the payslip?

Either way. It's both non representative AND it's still not on-par with London/SV for the cream of the crop.

> I'm not really in the financial business, but I'm not sure you could find work in «trading infrastructure» here in Paris.

I don't care especially about financial businesses. It's just one offer ready-to-sign I have on my desk. I try to make a collection of those. I guess it's like people who came from desert that now hoard water... I come from a job desert and I hoard job offers to maintain my mental sanity :D

This is really just one of the many jobs in there. I knew noone, I have zero network. I sent a few resumes and I got that.

That's the way it works in London. That's not the way it works in France :(

> That being said, you could easily find a job above 60k in Paris with this background.

With the taxes and costs of living. I estimate 60k€ in Paris to be like £50k in London (possibly less).

If we go higher, the difference will becomes more dramatic. No point to have a good salary in France with all the taxes, it's just stealing everything.

> but saying that 2500€ a month is impossible in Paris is just wrong nowadays.

There is a hundred people every year, who are in Paris, from the top schools in Paris, who may approach that. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'd say it's very limited and Paris sucks for the rest of the world.

> Of course it's probably not much compared to what you earn in the trading business

Way more or way less than what you think. It could go either way. But I'm still young and whatever I do now is just a step on the infinite ladder of the universe :D

> I don't know how the market was several years ago, but I think you really underestimate the shortage of developers in Paris at the moment.

0) A shortage that only applies to dudes from centrale and normale. Too bad for me.

1) There is no shortage in France. There is no money and there is no good company.

2) What are the odds of a good position in Paris without knowing the right people? High risk, low reward.

4) Even if France paid on-par. The tax would hurt so bad that it would still suck. Better make money elsewhere that doesn't steal it right away.

5) There is no such thing as a "shortage", the only thing is an "over abundance of companies who pays shit". Obviously, the international markets has increased my standards :D

6) In SV/NY/London. There is a small [but very real] market for the top talent, the few guys who knows what they are doing and what they're worth and are ambitious enough to pursue it. There are real options for the top 1%, in Paris there aren't.

Conclusion:

Your linkedin profile says that you're looking for a job, in France or abroad. You just surrendered. Even you, you do NOT believe in your country :p

[Heraclite]

I's also a cultural one, at least regarding the developers. The status of the developer is still considered lower as middle management. It's slowly changing though, as developers are becoming more and more respected. But we're far from SF where developers have a higher symbolic status and where the good ones get huge salaries.

I never understood why some companies in France are reluctant to pay well their developers, especially startups with funding.

[younes0]

Because SF startups ROI are much higher ?