[dfar1]

“You have to be very careful when you select and use aloe products,” said Tod Cooperman, president of White Plains, New York-based ConsumerLab.com, which has done aloe testing.

-- And how am supposed to be careful? Should I run my own lab to test every product I use?

[macintux]

One of the failings of the libertarian ideal. There's no way for even an informed consumer to have any idea what most of their purchases contain, what safety issues they have, how effective they really are, etc.

[cgriswald]

Your comment is odd considering this flaw is occurring in a system that is not 'the' libertarian ideal and the solution is close to the libertarian ideal and is working.

Consumers are being informed right now. A scandal can kill a company or a private inspector in a way that it can't kill a corporate oligarchy or bad regulation. Private inspectors have to compete for consumer dollars. Government regulators, at best, have to compete for less than half the votes of registered voters; or they are simply appointed.

In the system we have now, there will be lawsuits, but they will be capped and won't mean the death of these corporations, so will largely be meaningless and likely the entire thing will still be overall profitable to these companies. Any attempt to regulate will be met with lobbying efforts to make that regulation competition-restricting and corporation-protecting while giving lip service to protecting consumers.

[glenstein]

I think the real lesson of the story isn't that the system is "working", it's that we've (society) been purchasing tons and tons of a product for who knows how long that has been inauthentic, without any idea that it was the case. How long has this been happening? For how many other products is this the case?

It's certainly better that we know and (hopefully) some corrective action is taken, but overall I'd read it as a signal of dysfunction. And I don' think macintux is suggesting that we're presently within the libertarian ideal, rather we're in the universe where it's considered a responsibility of the state to prevent these kinds of things from happening, yet they are still happening. So look what happened here, and imagine what would happen with even fewer failsafes...

[semi-extrinsic]

> we've (society) been purchasing tons and tons of a product for who knows how long that has been inauthentic, without any idea that it was the case

Also, whenever this happens, one should stop and consider:

"Why are we buying aloe vera products in the first place, when millions of people using the product for years are unable to detect that it's fake?"

If this happened with something tangible, say replacing all regular coke with diet coke without changing the labels, it would be noticed immediately.

Whenever people buy something which they are completely unable to differentiate from a fake, are they really being defrauded when someone sells them the fake?

[klagermkii]

> Whenever people buy something which they are completely unable to differentiate from a fake, are they really being defrauded when someone sells them the fake?

Yes.

[mzw_mzw]

I think the point was that the real thing is just as much (or as little) of a fraud as the fake is.

[aarongolliver]

Especially because, if someone's been buying fakes all their life, how could they possibly know what real Aloe is like?

[albedoa]

Whenever people buy something which they are completely unable to differentiate from a fake, are they really being defrauded when someone sells them the fake?

You are seriously confusing the placebo effect with ignorance of the expected effect.

It is fraud not because the user perceives the expected effect but because the user has been told that the perceived effect is the expected one.

[burkaman]

What if it was something like soap? How could you possibly tell if you were buying fake soap? If you get sick, do you immediately suspect that your soap supplier has defrauded you?

[semi-extrinsic]

There is a difference between fake and dangerous.

[kcanini]

> Whenever people buy something which they are completely unable to differentiate from a fake, are they really being defrauded when someone sells them the fake?

Yes.

[cmurf]

I see it as an example of both market and government failure.

Edit: FTFA "There’s no watchdog assuring that aloe products are what they say they are. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration doesn’t approve cosmetics before they’re sold and has never levied a fine for selling fake aloe." OK so I'm wrong, it's just market failure, the government isn't even involved in this.

[Steel_Phoenix]

Not entirely wrong. You're proof that people have the expectation that products are being well regulated. I think most people do assume this, even if they can't name a law or regulatory authority that would do so.

In a way, we're getting the worst of both worlds. The lack of oversight from an unregulated environment with the consumer complacency of a regulated one. If we could downplay the amount of oversight on products, people might be more skeptical as consumers. Putting analytical technology or services in the hands of consumers would be even better.

[pbhjpbhj]

When there's such a blatant and obvious breach of the law, in this case a fraud, against a large number of citizens (all the people who bought the product), then shouldn't the government themselves wade in and initiate legal proceedings - with an independent judiciary what's the problem with that?

Surely there is a government department that covers product fraud? In the UK we have Trading Standards (and the Advertising Standards Agency (ASA) [which might be a NGO?]) that would both be in part responsible to take action on the consumers behalf ... presumably there's some action needed in the UK now, can't imagine this is only in USA.

Mind you from the article it sounds like the fraud is in quantity of Aloe Vera added; that these products may have 1ppm of Aloe Vera or something??

[sqldba]

It's weird that there's no general law covering this in America.

In Australia we have the Australian Consumer Law which covers basics like, "It has to do/be/contain what it says it does," otherwise you get a refund or replacement.

I... don't know how anyone can survive without this most basic protection.

[nsxwolf]

I think one of the reasons this particular situation went on this long is that aloe is kind of a bullshit product in the first place. What do you use it for, sunburn? Can you honestly tell the difference between some putting some jelly with aloe in it on your sunburn vs some other jelly? I don't think it's obviously effective in the way that Tylenol is on a fever or headache.

[will_brown]

I feel very confident you don't live in a tropical climate and have never experienced the application of fresh cut aloe plant.

Aloe in plant form is the real deal, and more so than any commercially processed aloe product (w/added pain relievers) or other after sun product I am aware of. It significantly defies pain/discomfort, keeps the skin moisturized and in many cases can prevent peeling from burns.

Plus you can eat/juice the gel and it has hydration and anti-toxin benefits.

[dpark]

> I feel very confident you don't live in a tropical climate and have never experienced the application of fresh cut aloe plant.

I feel very confident that this is irrelevant since lotion you might buy at Wal-Mart is definitely not fresh cut aloe regardless of whether it contains small amounts of aloe juice.

> Plus you can eat/juice the gel and it has hydration and anti-toxin benefits.

Whenever someone makes a generic reference to "toxins", I immediately doubt anything else that they say with respect to health or medicine. There are many things that are toxic to humans but there are no things that are generically "anti-toxin" except maybe water. I cannot imagine that aloe has any effect on mercury exposure, or cyanide consumption, or even tobacco smoke inhalation.

[NikolaeVarius]

The medical benefits of Aloe are actually fairly shaky scientifically.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1313538/ CONCLUSION: Even though there are some promising results, clinical effectiveness of oral or topical aloe vera is not sufficiently defined at present.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/aloe/evidence/hr...

[coryfklein]

> Aloe in plant form is the real deal

FWIW, a quick review on wikipedia indicates that there is no scientific consensus on the effectiveness of aloe in the treatment of burns.

[kevin_thibedeau]

You don't have to live in the tropics to grow aloe. They can survive a winter in a sunny window. And yes, it most definitely does work on sunburn straight from the plant.

[nommm-nommm]

When I was a child I got a very bad grease burn. Fresh aloe cut right from the plant was applied it to the burn. Didn't seem to do anything.

[semi-extrinsic]

FWIW, aloe isn't really a good remedy for sunburn. A sunburn, like any other skinburn, should be treated quickly with lots of running water slightly colder than lukewarm; i.e. a cold shower. That's a lot more efficient due to basic physics.

[dllthomas]

Could you spell out the basic physics? I am having trouble connecting it to anything I learned in school. Biology/chemistry seems substantially more relevant.

[WildUtah]

Evidence of the effectiveness of Tylenol on fever or headache is very, very weak. It's similar to the evidence for aloe.

Mostly Tylenol is administered as a placebo. Fake aloe is at least useful as a moisturizer.

[chillacy]

Really? I found several double blind studies showing the effectiveness of acetaminophen on headaches:

http://www.neurology.org/content/48/1/103.short

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/10...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1526-4610.2006....

[skrap]

> Consumers are being informed right now. A scandal can kill a company or a private inspector in a way that it can't kill a corporate oligarchy or bad regulation.

I'm not convinced. Scandals don't scale. How many scandals per year do people actually have the attention and outrage to push through into action? 10? 100?

It's my opinion that we need regulation to set the ground rules of our interactions with companies, which will always ALWAYS be tempted to deceive us. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't spent 2 minutes in any corporate marketing department.

[nickik]

I agree. scandal is not enough. If somebody is guilty of fraud he should be sued by everybody.

In a good legal system many small claims should be bought and then somebody could sue the company for money. This would be a superior version of a class action lawsuit. A version that is actually practical and would scale.

Its also not a new idea, there are historical examples of this.

[nommm-nommm]

>In a good legal system many small claims should be bought and then somebody could sue the company for money. This would be a superior version of a class action lawsuit. A version that is actually practical and would scale.

This exists, it's called small claims court.

[nickik]

That goes in the right direction but there are many problem that hinder it from scaling.

A organisation can not buy millions of claims from consumers and the fight a full class action lawsuit without any of these people being involve.

[Frondo]

You know what I don't get? How would regulations (the bane of the libertarian existence) be burdensome in this situation?

The regulation could say something like, products labeled "aloe vera" must contain mechanically extracted aloe vera without chemical alteration. I would guess that that's what most people who're trying to buy aloe vera are actually trying to buy. They're probably not trying to buy aloe vera with sugar added or with various additives replacing the aloe vera bits or whatever. (And isn't this who regulations are for? The buyers?)

People who want the sugary aloe vera could still buy it, but it'd have to be called something else. "Burn liniment with aloe vera in it somehow," maybe.

How would that burden manufacturers?

(By the way, I do agree with the libertarian angst around regulations, but mostly where those regulations are used as weapons against historically disadvantaged communities. Like the regulations around hairdressing that make people do some ungodly huge number of training hours to be able to braid cornrows for money. The law often gets crafted to keep poor folks or minorities down, and that pisses me off. Get rid of that shit yesterday!)

[zdragnar]

The existence of a regulatory structure means that if it's on a shelf, 99% of consumers trust it (see also nutritional supplements). The defacto assumption is that if it wasn't safe / correctly labeled, the government has done or will do something about it.

The libertarian ideal would see consumers lose that fake safety net in favor of private organisations finding and providing that information; the specific mechanisms would vary but likely be not very different than what the government does now. The important piece is that people would stop assuming that words on a package are imperically true.

It's a bit like the argument that Trump would have won the popular vote without the electoral college... because it existed, he campaigned differently than if it hadn't. Whether or not he actually could have gotten the popular vote is impossible to know at this point, but it's a hypothesis just the same.

[Spooky23]

We've been here before:

http://sippncorn.blogspot.com/2014/01/false-advertising-and-...

[ethanbond]

Wait but then why wouldn't the private organizations be the "fake safety net?"

[lisper]

We actually have a data point: this is exactly what happened during the financial crisis, when ratings agencies sold fraudulent ratings on mortgage-backed securities. There is no way to structure a compensation structure so that reliable ratings information can be provided on the open market because there is no way to restrict the flow of information only to those customers who have paid for it. Perverse incentives of some form are thus inevitable.

[maxxxxx]

See ratings agencies during the financial crisis. They are the perfect example for private organizations that should have uncovered problems but instead were corrupt. Of course hardcore libertarians will say that they didn't do it right....

[coryfklein]

I assume they would be? If a store stocks two "Aloe Vera" products, and one has the seal from the private organization, then customers will know that the private organization vouches for the product with the seal.

The theory is that if the seal adds value to the product insofar as it accurately assesses some quality or standard of the product.

[zdragnar]

They are, but would engender less trust than if the government had approved it. Ergo, more critical review of their approvals / marketing.

For consumer goods, companies would hold each other accountable- no company would advertise "X approved" once X was discovered to commit fraud or otherwise misrepresent their reviews.

As for sibling comments on ratings agencies, I disagree.

On the one hand, ratings agencies alone were not solely to blame; though they were ill equipped to understand the complexity of the new structures. As a result, the big three settled at least 14 lawsuits, suffered stock losses and other harms.

Tell me, what can you do when the government fails? You can't sue the EPA when their inspectors accidentally cause a slurry retention pond to spill massive amounts of toxic waste. You can't sue the FDA when their safety inspections fail to catch conditions which allow spoilage and food poisoning. You can't sue the FDA when lobbyists push through unsafe medications.

Guess who you can sue for damages? Private organisations (until the government interferes even more by declaring them too big to fail)

[Retric]

These companies are being sued which is the libertarian solution. However, clearly that did not prevent this from happening because running a business that will eventually be sued to oblivion is still profitable now.

So, best case nobody notices and they win, worst case someone notices and they still win. Much like large companies use 3rd party's to have undocumented people clean their toilets without being exposed to any real risks.

[beguiledfoil]

The libertarian solution is appeal to a higher authority? Is this one of those turtles things?

[coryfklein]

Just because there is a higher authority doesn't require that infinite higher authorities exist.

One possible libertarian replacement of courts are Stefan Molyneux's Dispute Resolution Organizations, but that's probably not the only way it could be done.

[nerfhammer]

Scandals and regulations aren't mutually exclusive, you seem to be saying they are?

[x0x0]

We explicitly excluded supplements and cosmetics from fda regulation in 1994, at least in part due to industry lies culminating in ads featuring Mel Gibson showing militarized police breaking into a house to take away vitamins.

[lern_too_spel]

This flaw is occurring in a system for which the products in question are unregulated. Imagine how much worse it would be if the libertarians had their way and deregulated everything else.

[nitwit005]

> is close to the libertarian ideal and is working

Working to some extent, right? There are whole categories of products that are heavily faked or adulterated.

[vacri]

> Private inspectors have to compete for consumer dollars.

No they don't. They just have to compete for 'dollars', not 'consumer dollars'. Big industry will quite happily pay for favourable reports.

And seriously, who is going to individually pay for an inspector of a bottle of aloe? A big ticket item like a house, sure, but a cheap bottle of goo?

[bertiewhykovich]

lol yeah, corporations are constantly shut down when they betray consumer trust. The Chicago stockyards went belly-up when "The Jungle" came out.

[jamoes]

"The Jungle" is a work of fiction, in case you weren't aware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle

[nommm-nommm]

"Sinclair was considered a muckraker, or journalist who exposed corruption in government and business.[4] In 1904, Sinclair had spent seven weeks gathering information while working incognito in the meatpacking plants of the Chicago stockyards for the newspaper. "

[bertiewhykovich]

Saw this article and just ran with the title, eh? https://www.libertariannews.org/2012/11/15/meat-packing-lies...

Turns out it doesn't actually "expose the fiction of 'The Jungle.'" It cites "a 1906 report by the Bureau of Animal Industry" -- and nothing else. It then runs headlong into a classic libertarian diatribe against regulations.

And even if "The Jungle" /was/ pure fiction (instead of just fictionalize) -- readers didn't know that. And, despite their revulsion, the stockyards kept chugging along.

[nickik]

You are wrongly assuming that libertarians are atomistic and think that every consumer has to do everything. That is however not the case.

Libertarians have actually thought about this stuff quite a bit.

All society relies on a system of law. How this system is created or enforced is a seprete question. In almost all systems of law ever, there is a clause against fraud. Theirfore this company has defrauded everybody who has bought their product and therefore can be collectivly sued.

I must also mention that we have primitive collective suing systems in place. Many legal schooler have long advocated to change this.

It goes further then that, because the person that sold you the product and the producer might not be the same. The seller is also partially responsable and can be sued by the consumers, the seller must the sue the producer.

Its the same idea with river pollution, the lawcase goes up the river and expands.

As for discovering such cases. There are hole number of possible options if the options mentioned above are enforced.

First, there can be a commercial consumer group that finds error, the buys nearly wothless claims from lots of consumers and goes after the seller with those. This will pretty quickly have the effect that the seller has much more insentive to test himself.

Also you can have community no-profits doing this kind of things, that will make them seem less greedy.

[Steko]

> First, there can be a commercial consumer group that finds error, the buys nearly wothless claims from lots of consumers and goes after the seller with those. This will pretty quickly have the effect that the seller has much more insentive to test himself.

Or his incentive is to run a fly by night operation that shuts down before it can be sued.

> Also you can have community no-profits doing this kind of things, that will make them seem less greedy.

This touches on one glaring problem with libertarian utopia. Their replacement for the evil gubmint is a host of other bureaucracies (giant consumer groups, a bunch of non-profits doing testing, insurance for everything, etc.) that presumably will have many of the same pathologies as the gubmint.

[JanezStupar]

> This touches on one glaring problem with libertarian utopia. Their replacement for the evil gubmint is a host of other bureaucracies (giant consumer groups, a bunch of non-profits doing testing, insurance for everything, etc.) that presumably will have many of the same pathologies as the gubmint.

Which is kind of the point. Institutions can be functional or disfunctional. The only way to prevent disfunctional institutions bogging down the government is by not having the government run them in the first place.

The easiest way to deal with a dysfunctional institutions is by letting them die. Which is a lot easier when government is not involved.

Last but not least, there is also the element of freedom. One cannot opt-out of government and its institutions - without having to move or worse. While as proposed above - the possibility of opting out of institutions - is necessary for having any hope of not being stuck with corrupt institutions.

[Spooky23]

So, if government didn't do anything, it would be functional, but only because private actors would stand in and provide incompetent bureaucrats or self-interested bureaucratsof their own?

[JanezStupar]

I don't give a damn if Oracle is stupid, incompetent, malicious or all of the above. I decided to have no business with Oracle and they have no way of forcing me into a relationship with it.

If, however - Oracle were a government institution - then it could leverage its monopoly over violence to get me to do its bidding - regardless of what I thought of its services.

And as one goes through history, one notices that most if not all of the institutions that governments provide - have started outside of government, yet have been included into the scope of government. Either because the ruling party at the time saw it as a means of expanding their reach OR because people have observed that it would be cheaper/more effective to run these institutions "collectively" - where the state pops up immediately as an endeavor that is already done for the "good of all".

Unfortunately - no institution is ideal. And as we have seen time and again through history, all institutions succumb to corruption eventually. And being stuck with corrupt institutions is no fun at all.

I have no idea, how you maligned my argument into the garbage you presented. But I would argue, that you are actually presenting an excellent case for striving towards preventing dishonest people such as yourself from getting power over others. Thus while you undoubtedly think yourself an edgy cynic - you are merely solidifying my point.

[riskable]

It's funny how you worded this because, "letting them die" is basically how an anti-Libertarian would sum up libertarianism.

[JanezStupar]

Yes, that is what dishonest, ax grinding anti-libertarians do constantly.

[nickik]

Its funny, whenever somebody makes a libertarian argument, somebody throws 'libertarian utopia' back. I don't believe in utopia, a libertarian system would not be perfect, misery and suffering will not be eliminated. Not everything you buy will be perfectly labeled. No libertarian I have ever met in my hole live believes the market/legal based system is perfect, just that it usually outperforms a regulatory system

> Or his incentive is to run a fly by night operation that shuts down before it can be sued.

So what, you manufacture 10 bottles of creme and then vanish into the shadows?

Companies have a huge intensive to stay, establish partnerships, branding, funding and so on.

Also, I think the idea of legal person has gone to far. Im not against the idea of big cooperations but the legal system has clearly gone to far into the direction of none accountability (something that was actually often the case in common law legal systems).

> Their replacement for the evil gubmint is a host of other bureaucracies (giant consumer groups, a bunch of non-profits doing testing, insurance for everything, etc.) that presumably will have many of the same pathologies as the gubmint.

I have nothing against big organisations per se. That has never been my criticism of regulatory agencies.

The groups have much more intensive to actually provide value because they relay on people to be their costumer. Also, you have pluralism, different groups have different demands.

I honestly only care if stuff is not poisonous, and Im happy to pay for the lowest level of testing. I however don't really care if the meat is actually beef, Im fine with horse as long as it is tasty.

Other people, like vegans are willing to pay way more for exact information.

How about a suggestion that can make both of use happy? We keep the FDA, they do everything the do now, only that other products can still be sold, but they need to have a reasonably BIG label on it, that they are not FDA approved. We put a tiny tax on all products actually approved by the FDA to fund the FDA.

This way we the people who care about the FDA fund it. If you are not happy with that, how about we fund 50% of the FDA that way and the other 50% threw taxes? How about if its still fully tax funded?

Would that not make everybody at least reasonably happy?

Historically such system usually prove that the state is not needed, and rather then excepting that the state monopolises it.

[alexose]

> Companies have a huge intensive to stay, establish partnerships, branding, funding and so on.

Companies have huge incentives to act altruistically, but individuals within those companies sometimes have huge incentives to maximize short-term profits.

There's an asymmetry in the way companies and their employees operate. Employees can endanger the life of the company at a negligible-- or even negative-- cost to themselves. It's why banking executives might reward the opening of millions of fraudulent accounts, for example.

I've yet to see an example of a company that can completely prevent this problem. Given the lack of evidence, I have to continue to believe in regulations that protect consumers.

[nickik]

But we are living in a system of literally exploding banking regulation. The amount of regulation bank have are so astronomically high that no human can actually read it. There are huge organisations that try to enforce these regulation but for some reason this does not solve the problem.

Each time there is a issue, there is a new movement for anther Basel. This time things will be different. But they are not. For some reason many people just keep yelling 'more regulation' without any evidence that they actually do or change much.

Yes, individuals do suboptimal things for the long term of the company, but I don't see a massive amount of cases were companies get created for a short time to defraud everybody and then leave. Every company has a intensive to set up a structure so that they can prevent this sort of stuff, its in the responsibility of the owner, who has the most to lose.

Interestingly enough Adam Smith had invested in a bank that went down. In this system you had companies with double exposure. That means that if you had a stock of a failing company you could lose the value of the stock plus pay that much into the bank.

This actually had the effect that banks when failing would try to fail early, now failing banks try to make high risk investments to get everything back and then ask for bailouts if it fails.

I would highly suggest you study historical bank systems. Compare the highly regulated US banking system (US banking was highly regulated from the very beginning, usually requiring a special charter, no branching and so on) to the hardly regulated banking system of Canada. During the Great Depression the US had about 3000 bank failures, Canada had 0-1 depending on how you count. Canada during that time did not have a central bank, but rather competitive note issue by a group of banks (the US had taxed this heavily during the Civil War and reduced it, then finally getting ride of it in 1913 with the Fed).

It must also be said that Canada suffered very heavily economically, but the banking system was stable. Canada was famed for its banking system on to this day have a far superior less regulated system. In the US many people actually wanted to adopt the Canadian unregulated system, but JPMorgan and friends did of course not want to lose their monopoly on the international market (small banks had to use a partner in New York).

You can also go back to England and Scotland. Scotland probably had the freest banking system that ever existed and it was one of the best performing system that we have historical evidence of.

[Ironchefpython]

> How about a suggestion that can make both of use happy? We keep the FDA, they do everything the do now, only that other products can still be sold, but they need to have a reasonably BIG label on it, that they are not FDA approved. We put a tiny tax on all products actually approved by the FDA to fund the FDA.

Sure, with two small changes. One, we make the FDA tax progressive. Use whatever argument you like to justify this, like rich people's lives are more valuable, and therefore they can pay more to stay alive, but the key is that everyone will buy into the system in a way that they can both afford, AND be emotionally invested in.

Second, all non-FDA labeled products will have a MASSIVE tax applied, to pay for the externalized costs of bad food, such as emergency room visits, death, sickness, etc.

Of course we need a state to enforce this system, and it won't work any better than the existing one, but hey, it's a market solution!

[nickik]

A fixed tax is already progressive since rich people consume far more, but I don't really care. Also the tax would be so small that it really would not matter (as long as many produces have this stamp). Only if nobody cares about the FDA it will be expensive.

> Second, all non-FDA labeled products will have a MASSIVE tax applied, to pay for the externalized costs of bad food, such as emergency room visits, death, sickness, etc.

That's another problem with government. Once it does everything, everything has effect on everything else. You can force any health measure on the population with the argument that others have to pay for you if you don't do something. You might as well require that everybody does mandatory sports and eat the state approved diet.

If you as a state want to make a commitment to universal health care then you have to accept people being people and doing unhealthy things. If you as a state don't want to do that, you have two options, don't do it or put a totalitarian policy state in place so people follow your rules.

Even so, there is no way to prove that these MASSIV externalisiere exist. That's simply your assertion. It could also be that these people are exactly the same on avg. It could be that because they abuse products they die faster and thus cost less money to the state.

> Of course we need a state to enforce this system, and it won't work any better than the existing one, but hey, it's a market solution!

You are contradicting yourself. Its not a market solution, its a state run system either way.

What this idea is about is testing if products that are not FDA approve really are worse in the longer term. Because if it turns out that it is the case that they are not, then we can just all agree to drop the FDA.

As long as the FDA has monopoly we have know way of knowing what there actual effects. Seems to me more people should care about stuff like that.

[skaplun]

When government isn't involved a "dysfunctional" organization will sell you air and tell you its medicine because there's no regulator checking him.

Its like people are aching to be poisoned and die

[nickik]

What what a insightful comment. Thanks for all your arguments.

[nommm-nommm]

>Companies have a huge intensive to stay, establish partnerships, branding, funding and so on.

Fly by night operations are already a problem on Amazon. Sure actual companies have an incentive establish themselves but fly by night operations aren't actual companies, their business model is dump and run.

[nickik]

Sure. There will be problems with that, just as we have now.

There are ways we are already dealing with it, and we will continue to do so. I don't see what a state can do. If you want security always go to the same company that has done well by you in the paste.

It you want security you have to pay a little extra.

I don't see how a state can do more. If people are actually doing illegal stuff, then there is the policy, just as now.

[logfromblammo]

One option would be to turn FDA-approved into a service mark. No product that has not passed FDA approval testing could bear the FDA's service mark.

This is in line with logos like the UL service mark or service marks indicating kosher products. Products that bear a service mark usually have to pay the mark owner a licensing fee for use of the mark, which may be partially recoverable with higher prices to the customer.

If people trust the FDA, they will look for their mark, and not buy products without it. Service mark counterfeiting would have to be dealt with through civil court cases.

This leaves the market open for a competitor to the FDA to service different consumer needs or for specific product categories.

[TeMPOraL]

> Or his incentive is to run a fly by night operation that shuts down before it can be sued.

Case in point: try to sue anyone in Shenzhen for anything. Good luck finding who to sue first. And they build pretty much all our electronics.

[nickik]

They seem to have some sort of system where good quality is produced even if nobody can sue them. Otherwise other nations wouldn't buy all their electronics.

[skaplun]

They seem to have some sort of system where dirt cheap shit quality products ignoring international copyright laws, are pushed by assembly line workers wearing no safety gear and dying from poisoning, to consumers who then have no legal recourse when a significant portion of the products they buy fail

[nommm-nommm]

Are you living under a rock? Dollars speak much louder than words.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/06/19/business/worldbusiness/...

[TheOtherHobbes]

>First, there can be a commercial consumer group that finds error, the buys nearly wothless claims from lots of consumers and goes after the seller with those.

That's actually what government is for. You pay it money, and if you have a good government it includes a branch to make sure consumers aren't ripped off/poisoned/injured/killed/etc.

Some governments, like the EU, are actually quite good at this.

A commercial consumer group can always be bought out, infiltrated, or threatened with bankruptcy by someone with superior spending power.

A government can only be taken over from the inside - often by those who pretend to support libertarian ideals, but in practice simply want to operate at various levels of criminality without challenge or oversight.

But a government can never be taken over completely. There are always people who believe that market forces are a naive and unworkable ideology, and are willing to work against their excesses. They have a natural role in government regulation, but no natural role in markets.

[nickik]

> That's actually what government is for. Y

Im happy that you believe this. I however don't. So where does that leave us?

> You pay it money, and if you have a good government it includes a branch to make sure consumers aren't ripped off/poisoned/injured/killed/etc.

I pay the money because I don't really have the option to only pay for the government I like.

If you feel that way how about a tax on all products that are FDA approved that pay for the FDA. Other products can be sold with a stamp on it, not FDA approved.

> Some governments, like the EU, are actually quite good at this.

I would disagree.

> A government can only be taken over from the inside - often by those who pretend to support libertarian ideals, but in practice simply want to operate at various levels of criminality without challenge or oversight.

> But a government can never be taken over completely. There are always people who believe that market forces are a naive and unworkable ideology, and are willing to work against their excesses. They have a natural role in government regulation, but no natural role in markets.

I don't really understand your point.

Its defiantly not libertarians or people who claim libertarian ideals who create, run and push for more of these regulatory agencies.

[davewasthere]

Actually, the EU have pretty good legislation for cosmetics on this point and do do a good job. I get that you disagree, but any reason why you disagree?

At least, in the EU, manufacturers are held to a standard and are fined/prosecuted if they breach those standards. It's not an 'honor system' as bloomberg report. Lets face it, if there's an honor system, and you could buy maltodextrin powder instead of real aloe powder, the bulk of companies would probably do it to make a profit.

[nickik]

I disagree because the EU does not allow me to buy what I might want to buy. I value having option hand making my own choice. I am even ok with paying taxes for them to do their job. I would be happy if only people who buy 'EU approved labeled' products had to pay for the service, but that not the most important.

There is nothing about honor in the system that I want. If you are found to be fraudulent you should be suit for a lot of money. That money should go to the person/people sued you. Even better would be a system were you can make collective action law suits by buying up small claims.

In general such a tort based system is better because it does not require every product to go threw a cost adding regulatory step, reducing prices. Cost only happens if suit is needed, and in the waste majority of cases there will never be a case. Thus the overall system is cheaper, faster to market and gives the consumer more options.

I don't know anything about cosmetic regulation, this applies to all consumer product regulation equally. Im happy to trust you on this. I am not impaling that all regulators are bad, or always wrong and Im not saying that the US system is better then the European one. I probably rather have the EU system, but Im happy to stay in the Swiss system for now :)

[morganvachon]

The Libertarian ideal also says "do what you want as long as it doesn't harm someone else". Multiple companies causing financial harm to citizens by deceiving them through fraudulent products actually goes against the Libertarian ideal.

In other words, it's not black-or-white, just like any other political ideal. If the world operated on such a strict "Libs/Dems/Cons must only do exactly what their parties' ideals say" then we wouldn't have had Obama's administration targeting innocent civilians with drone strikes, and Bush Jr. wouldn't have increased federal spending by 60% during his term.

[riskable]

How does libertarianism deal with shell companies and dumping?

It only takes five minutes to setup a shell company under a false name, sell your toxic waste to it for $1 (or some amount that "looks real") and just dump it all under the new company's name.

You can't really sue to recover damages in such a situation and you can't assume that a paper trail will be accurate or even kept.

You could hold the people at the tail end of the pipeline responsible but they may have been deceived as well. Also, what do you do when it's all robots?

[analog31]

How does libertarianism deal with shell companies and dumping?

The easiest way would be: No corporations. If the owners of a business are liable for the debts of that business, then they will have much more of an incentive to behave themselves.

Granted, I'm not a libertarian, but I can't see how the concept of corporations (a government entitled class of investors with special privileges) could emerge under libertarianism.

[angry-hacker]

I'm not a libertarian either but that would kill businesses. Who wants to trade when all possible variables can are ALL of their life. Or maybe there is an insurance :))

[analog31]

I think that without liberal institutions such as corporate regulation and entitlements, and the money system, great ventures such as energy and food distribution, transportation, semiconductors, etc., would be impossible.

Even despite the recent election results, I still have faith that society would not voluntarily accept an ideology that necessitates a cataclysmic drop in prosperity. Thus, a "libertarian" society would probably accept at least a bare minimum number of liberal institutions.

[maxxxxx]

That actually makes sense. Or maybe there should be prison sentences for corporations. If you mess up you are closed for a few years.

[analog31]

My thought is that a corporation would not be an entity. It would simply be a partnership of individuals, so the penalties would fall on the individuals. They could have some sort of a contractual arrangement with one another for things like mutual support if someone sues them.

I also suspect that without corporations, businesses would be a lot smaller, limited to whatever the owners can personally monitor and control.

[nommm-nommm]

Good luck getting anyone to ever start a business then.

[nickik]

Well, first of all, with the exception of anarchist libertarians still support policy. This seems to be a case of illegal dumping. If the person that is harmed needs to go to the policy and they need to investigate. Once you find out who it was, they need to pay.

Also in cases such a pipelines and rivers, everybody can sue the person higher up and you will eventually arrive at the source.

For rivers this system has actually worked quite well. River property rights system were quite common in Britain and in the US. There is also direct comparison of rivers without such system and rivers with such system, and the property rights based once were much cleaner.

This of course changes when we are talking about dumping in the ocean. That another problem.

[nommm-nommm]

You seem to believe everyone has infinite time to spend in court.

[nickik]

The hole point of a legal system is to prevent people from doing something because they fear being sued. So by definition you only sue in special cases.

Also if somebody dumps huge amounts of waste on your property, or waste flows threw your river, then you have a intensive to go to court.

Also, in a well designed legal system you can do much better. Take the river example. If I don't like the waste flowing threw the river but I don't care all that much since I just use it as a cooling source, I might never bother to actually sue.

However if somebody wants to make a water sports related thing, he has a huge incentive to sue. So he sues the guy who uses the water for cooling. The cooling guy will say, he 'its not my waste, how about I give you my legal claim'. In some cases you might sell the legal claim for money.

The cooling guy improves his situation and makes a small amount of money for little effort and then does not have to be involved anymore. The water sports guy now has double the incentive to win the lawsuit, because if he wins he has two claims.

This is actually historically quite common. Most of the time you don't do much yourself, you just hand of your claims for a specialist.

[logfromblammo]

You're metaphorically asking how to make things fall at 9.8 m/s^2 on Mars.

Shell companies are an artifact of how government courts assign legal liability. As courts would work differently in a libertarian society, unethical and criminal actors would almost certainly have different circumvention methods, tailored to the established rules of each different system. It's like asking how libertarians would deal with patent trolls. Patent trolls are an artifact of the existing system. They would not exist in the same form under a different system. The people who currently operate patent troll businesses would still exist, and they would undoubtedly still be opportunistic locusts, but threatening some other crop.

So how do you stop clever assholes from committing a series of offenses without meaningful consequence, in any system of civilization?

Most libertarian schools of thought are very heavily dependent on public reputation systems. A shell company with no established reputation, and no reputable person to vouch for it, would likely be entirely unable to rent or buy the boat or truck necessary to perform significant quantities of dark-night dumping in a manner that is not easily traceable.

And no matter how many fictitious name intermediaries you have, eventually a warm body has to do the dirty deed. If you can catch that guy in the act, you can hold him personally responsible unless he can provably pass the buck to someone else to share his blame.

In any case, I'm not certain how useful it is to say that libertarian theory does not solve a problem that is already not effectively addressed by existing social systems.

[nommm-nommm]

What if the boat and truck company are also fly by night operations?

[logfromblammo]

What if? They certainly could be. You can change variables in the hypothetical as much as you please. But you'll have to explore that new thought experiment yourself.

What if all of civilization is one giant scam?

[dgudkov]

Definitions of harm are very subjective. And biased when there is a commercial interest.

[tracker1]

This is effectively lying and fraud... That would still be illegal under libertarian ideals. The current system isn't the libertarian ideal and still isn't working... And while civil actions may be limited, that doesn't exclude the Govt coming in with more teeth when it comes to systemic fraud.

Also, with more clear marketing and without unfair advantages, competing products and companies should be able to enter the market.

[TeMPOraL]

The difference between ideals and reality is that in the real world, the "as long as it doesn't harm someone else" part flies out of the window. If you can't enforce good behaviour through some mechanism, it takes a single bad actor to start behaving badly to either dominate everyone or force them to misbehave in order to keep up.

Ideal libertarianism is like ideal communism and - like every other ideal concept - works perfectly in theory, falls flat on its face in reality.

[morganvachon]

> Ideal libertarianism is like ideal communism and - like every other ideal concept - works perfectly in theory, falls flat on its face in reality.

That's exactly what I said: In other words, it's not black-or-white, just like any other political ideal.

[nickik]

Stop making utopia arguments. No libertarians believes in what you claim. Libertarians believe market and legal based system perform better not perfect.

Your argument is simply terrible.

"Assume bad player wins, other players have to go along"

I could make the same argument for any system. It would still have no argumentative value.

[aero142]

I would imagine in a libertarian world, these companies would all be sued in court. Why is this not happening now?

Edit: I broke my own rule, and hadn't finished the article. They are being sued. Hopefully if the facts hold up, the case succeeds. This seems like something that should have criminal punishment as well for the supplier.

[knz]

> I would imagine in a libertarian world, these companies would all be sued in court. Why is this not happening now?

Or we could decide that it's in our collective best interest to hold companies to certain standards and avoid frivolous lawsuits?

Politics exists on a spectrum. It is possible to be pro business but also have a strong state that acts in the best interests of its population. A government is meant to represent the people ("by the people, for the people")...

This was in the top Google results for "best countries to do business in" - http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings

New Zealand, Singapore, Denmark, Hong Kong, South Korea, Norway, UK, USA, Sweden, Macedonia, Taiwan, Estonia, and Finland were the top results. Most of those have a healthy government.

[nickik]

Why should we spend tons of money on regulating every single item? That are cost that have to be payed by somebody.

Also its incredible difficulte to design these standard. Its almost impossible to remove bad ones because the burocracy has a clear interest in having asany as possible.

There is a clear insentive for regulatory capture. If you do it the libertarian way you just have universal courts that are much harder to be captured by interest groupes.

This system is superior to regulation because once you have, you have little ongoing cost. New products don't have built in extra cost as it would in a regulatory system and only if somebody bother to actually sue that person, one would have to spend money.

The money spent on the investigation is largly spend privatly. This means that the investigation is done effectivly, while a burocracy usually has the opposite insentive.

Also,any of the countries you mentioned are some of the most libertarian in the world. Look at the economic freedom index (doing buissness index is part of that).

[fucking_tragedy]

> only if somebody bother to actually sue that person, one would have to spend money. > The money spent on the investigation is largly spend privately.

This is why hardline libertarianism needs to revisit history and check with reality. Hundreds, thousands or millions of people shouldn't be injured or die before someone with enough money / evidence can sue or a class action lawsuit is brought before a court. Thousands of people shouldn't become addicted to or overdose from their laudanum infused snake oil. Children shouldn't have to die because their food, medicine or toys have easily prevented, harmful or deadly flaws. That was the norm before the FDA. People have a history of harming others for their own gain. Gone unchecked, it will happen regularly because the market will allow it. That is why we have regulatory agencies: we cannot rely on the market forces for absolutely everything.

[nickik]

Actually back before that FDA that was true because people were generally poor and could not buy quality. Evidence quite clearly shows that with growing wealth you also get improved quality. Product quality was rising steadily in the US way before the FDA, and when the FDA came along it did not radically improve, it continued on much the same path as before. Correlation is not Causation.

> That is why we have regulatory agencies: we cannot rely on the market forces for absolutely everything.

We have regulatory agencies because somebody thought regulatory agencies were a good idea. That something exits, is not prove that it works. Its not like these agencies get closed when they are doing a bad job.

Generally these bureaucracies just keep growing and attempting to ever increase the amount of detailed regulation in order to justify higher budget.

This is basic, well documented and tested political economy.

> This is why hardline libertarianism needs to revisit history and check with reality. Hundreds, thousands or millions of people shouldn't be injured or die before someone with enough money / evidence can sue or a class action lawsuit is brought before a court.

I have argued in other posts that the legal system is what is most important. In the case of the US the class action lawsuit has lots of problems, legal scholars and legal historians have designed and found much better ways of doing it.

Also, lets not ignore the millions of people who did because of the FDA. They have (actually had) a long history of waiting a long time to let dying people have medicine. In some cases they band useful medicine.

There is a hole history of such things that is often ignored.

[tracker1]

We already have these problems... The current system, and more socialized/communist systems aren't working any better.

[fma]

Difficult to design a standard?

Here's a good start: If your product doesn't contain enough of X, you can't call yourself X.

That's why ice cream that is not real ice cream is called 'frozen dairy dessert' and cheese that's not cheese is a 'cheese product'.

I'm not for regulating all the products, but I'm also not going to carry a MRI scanner around and determine exactly what is what.

[nickik]

A extremely generalisiere law like that is exactly what you would get out of a common law approach. If somebody sued somebody else about something the judge makes a judgment call about it, establishing a quasi standard. This quasi standard can then be revisited if needed.

The system that actually exists and many people here want is that every new product has to go threw a state facility that does testing and finds errors. Such a system actually exists and performs badly.

If a system of law is in action you can trust what you buy because you have trust that mass products are at least up to a minimum of standard. Sure, such a system probably does not find every detail. No system is perfect, a law based approach is generalized and low cost.

[drzaiusapelord]

How would a uneducated/non-expert jury parse this claim?

Tim Meadows, president of Concentrated Aloe Corp., said that nuclear magnetic resonance isn’t reliable for cosmetics because the presence of multiple ingredients can cause interference and there’s no way to test for aloe in finished products. He added that maltodextrin isn’t an adulterant because it can be used in the drying process, and while some ways of processing aloe remove acemannan, that doesn’t mean the aloe isn’t real, he said.

---

In other words, we don't really know the answer here and if consumers just ran to the nearest courthouse over every perceived slight in this Libertarian utopia, expect questionable jury settlements to be the norm, much like how our East Texas patent courts seem to have outcomes that are near random and demand settlements sometimes in the billions of dollars. I don't think "run to court" should be our first instinct here.

[CamperBob2]

You either trust the courts, or you don't.

If you do, then your takeaway from this article would be that the system is basically working as intended, at least so far.

If you don't, then you must be in favor of getting rid of the current jury system in favor of something else. What are your thoughts on how the replacement institution(s) should work?

[rhizome]

He's saying that just because they're selling caffeine-free, sugar-free diet Pepsi, that doesn't mean it's not Pepsi. That their cheese might be just canola oil and milk solids, but it's still orange. Just because the "aloe" (maybe call it "alow") they use has been eviscerated of all of its aloe-ness, that doesn't mean it didn't start out as natural aloe, and is that really what's important here?

[logfromblammo]

If you take an aloe plant and remove every quality and chemical that distinguishes it as aloe, it is no longer aloe. Homeopathy has no scientific merit. There is no distinguishable difference between pure, distilled water that has been sourced from clean lake water, or from seawater, or from urine, or from aloe plants. An H2O molecule has no capacity to store even a single bit of memory.

It is theoretically possible to perform organic synthesis with petroleum feedstocks to produce an artificial chemical mixture indistinguishable from natural aloe juice. But that would not be aloe, either. It would be imitation aloe. There is nothing inherently wrong or bad about imitation products, provided they are not presented in commerce as the genuine article. It might, after all, be an inferior and imperfect imitation, which would not be acceptable to consumers at the same prices.

The important issue is that people may believe that the bottled product is substantially similar to cutting a leaf from an aloe plant and squeezing out the juice from it. It is whether they are getting what they thought they paid for. If no chemical can be found in the product that can only economically be sourced from an aloe plant, clearly, the consumer has been cheated.

[drzaiusapelord]

If the medicinal action of Aloe is preserved I doubt anyone would feel "cheated."

[rhizome]

Yep.

[nickik]

The idea in such cases should never be that every single consumer sues the product seller.

Once we actually have suspicion the court or some private person can find another way to prove it. Since proving such a thing might be very value, there is lots of Incentives to do it. Whistle blowing might be interesting in this context.

One could also just look at their production, ask former employees and so on.

Does not seem impossible to handle.

[blakes]

I think it's really important to understand in order for a truly free market to succeed, is to have absolute transparency. The libertarian ideal of a free market includes transparency.

I believe that the most important thing to regulate is transparency itself. It is almost as if market regulation as we know it causes gaps in regulation in other parts of the market, and things like this happen. The consumer should be able to verify the complete supply chain of every product they purchase.

[fucking_tragedy]

How can you enforce transparency without regulation? The market has decided that supply chain opaqueness is acceptable. Regulation exists because market forces incentivize things society has deemed negative.

[blakes]

That is a tough one! I honestly am not sure, I imagine some sort of framework for corporate responsibility and transparency. Something like GRI [1] is a good start.

The way I see it, the transparency itself would probably need to be regulated. If an organizition is not following transparency requirements, regulators sanction or whatever that particular organization. I have no idea what that would look like or how it would be implemented. That is still a long ways a way.

The market has decided that opaqueness is acceptable because consumers are uninformed and transparency is not required. The market has taken advantages of holes in regulation.

I believe a free market is the ideal market, but the only way it is ideal is if it is completely and truly transparent. Regulation exists in part because of lack of transparency. If the market was transparent, it would (in theory) regulate itself.

I'm curious on your thoughts of what sorts of things market forces incetivize that are negative, I'm just trying to get a slightly better grasp of some of those things.

Clearly we are not ready for an economy like this yet. But someday. I honestly think transparency plays a huge role in humanities survival. Maybe I'm crazy, who knows.

https://www.globalreporting.org

[TeMPOraL]

The thing: market optimizes itself too. It's a dynamic system. So the real question to consider is what is market's fixed point. Or at least what's its phase portrait.

In other words - start with a perfect, transparent market with full and unbiased information available to all participants. Press the "Play" button. What happens? How soon will the market degrade itself, eschewing transparency and perfect information, because it's a more optimal point in the state space? Personally, I predict this is exactly what will happen.

[tracker1]

The libertarian ideal isn't no regulation, it's regulation that ensures transparency and leans towards increased competition not less.

[fucking_tragedy]

I know that further from the political mainstream you go, the harder it is to get people to agree on specifics, but I've yet to see a sect of libertarianism that is for market regulation of any kind for any reason be it safety, transparency, increased competition etc.

[tracker1]

Call me pragmatic...

[nickik]

Im a libertarian and I disagree with you on this point. A market system should be efficient, our hole argument is based on efficiency.

What you propose is not efficient and no consumer would want to pay for this level of information, thus it would not happen.

The important thing is that if somebody claims something that is not true, its fraud, he can be sued, during a lawsuit investigation have to be made to verify and judge the case.

Voluntary groups could start labeling products that have all information available. Shops could require producers to do it.

There are many ways a free society can handle these problems. We don't know exactly what would happen, but we have lots or reason to assume that something along these lines would happen.

[slicktux]

I may not be speaking for every individual whom considers themselves libertarian when I say this; Libertarian-ism is synonymous to Constitutionalist, here in the USA, so with that in mind I reference you to the U.S Constitution. Specifically, the 10th Amendment and the power it gives you the individual withing your state to make the laws of your concern so as long as they do not infringe on civil liberties; each state is a democracy of its own. In other words stop generalizing Libertarian-ism in a negative way, for it would only reflect on the failure to perceive the power the people have. I care for food regulations, environmental laws, and even social programs, just not the one's ran by the Federal Government.

Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap but by the seeds that you plant. --Robert Louis Stevenson

[contras1970]

Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap but by the seeds that you plant. --Robert Louis Stevenson

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. --whoever

[nathanvanfleet]

Yup. Everything seems fine until you realize that companies are willing to absolutely anything to make a buck. If you see a law that forces tests to keep companies from poisoning rivers, it's because companies have poisoned rivers. If it's a law about cutting up and selling the meat of a sick animal which is found dead, or what have you, it's there for a reason.

[tetrep]

i think this is moreso the flaw with a hybrid libertarian system where, for some things we can trust the government, but in others, we can't. this is usually pretty obvious but it's incredibly ambiguous when it comes to things we ingest. there's piles of regulations, but few deal with the integrity of the product vs its claims (see homeopathy...).

if we were in the libertarian ideal, we would scoff at the fact that we hadn't chosen a brand vetted by the consumer product testing lab that we're obviously already subscribed to.

and practically directly contradicting you claim is the fact that a private entity is what unveiled this mishap, no government involvement. ,

[gambiting]

In the EU if something is called "Greek yoghurt" it has to come from Greece. Otherwise it's "greek-style yoghurt". Similarily, if something is called "aloe vera juice" it has to contain aloe vera. Really simple, yet I've had many comments on HN opposing the idea of making it law(especially from US, weirdly).

[rconti]

I haven't seen a lot of people in the US defending companies passing off mislabeled products.

As for your yogurt example, perhaps it's because it's less important to those of us who live really far from Greece. It might not even be desirable to have yogurt that was shipped halfway around the world!

Is it yogurt made from Greek people? Is it yogurt made by a Greek company located in Spain? Yogurt made from Greek dairy, outside of Greece? Yogurt made in Greece from Italian milk? Yogurt made in Greece from Greek milk, but in the Australian style? I can think of all kinds of reasons folks half a world away would care much more about what style the product is, than would care about where, precisely, it was produced.

Of course, when you're in a trade union with a country that has a vested interest in having a monopoly on a product, obviously they're going to be pushing semantics in order to come out on top.

For those of us not so close to Greece, having to call it Greek-style yogurt is just more word soup. (also, this happens all the time in the US; the 'Greek' would be written really large and then 'style' in much smaller letters)

OTOH, it's pretty clear-cut in the case of a product that claims to contain a natural ingredient, but have none of it, and not even have any semblance of the benefits of the actual product.

[vdnkh]

> perhaps it's because it's less important to those of us who live really far from Greece

I'd argue this isn't true. Greek yogurt has distinct style and ingredients which, when I buy Greek yogurt, I expect in my yogurt. Anything else is not what I want to spend my money on. It's like feta cheese. Real feta cheese is made from sheep's milk and not cow. It's completely different if made from cow's milk (not the same taste nor texture).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feta#Certification

[Dylan16807]

But you're not disagreeing. You're saying that the recipe is important, not the geography. That's the same thing rconti said.

[nerfhammer]

"Italian sausage" -> no one assumes it was actually made in Italy

"French wine" -> everyone would assume it was actually made in France

I don't know if there's a hard rule that anyone can come up with about this sort of thing.

[gambiting]

Ok, but if someone was selling "Arkansas beef jerky" that was actually made in Texas, I imagine that would be a problem,no?

[nommm-nommm]

Is it a problem if Buffalo wings are made outside Buffalo, New York? Do you expect Canadian bacon to be made in Saskatchewan? Should Manhattan clam chowder be made in Manhattan? Are french fries imported from France?

(I always thought "Greek" was a style of yogurt.)

[TDL]

Probably not, unless they are claiming it's a product of Arkansas. Like your example above about Italian sausage, it's a categorization of style of food, not a product from a specific locale.

[Philadelphia]

Yeah, there are things out there that are called "Philadelphia Cheesesteaks" that amuse and alarm people from Philadelphia, but no one has (sincerely) suggested outlawing them.

[sampo]

> In the EU if something is called "Greek yoghurt" it has to come from Greece.

As a counterexample, these "Greek yogurt" [1], "Turkish yogurt" [2] and "Yogurt of Bulgaria" [3] are all definitely made in Finland.

[1] http://www.valio.fi/tuotteet/jogurtit/valio-kreikkalainen-jo...

[2] http://www.valio.fi/tuotteet/jogurtit/valio-turkkilainen-jog...

[3] http://www.valio.fi/tuotteet/jogurtit/valio-bulgarian-jogurt...

[Pharylon]

I go out for Italian food all the time, and I don't expect it came from Italy. At least here in the US, saying "I'm going to eat some Chinese Noodles/Greek Yogurt/Indian Curry" implies you're only talking about the style. I think it's a slightly different situation.

[gambiting]

I've never heard of that law applying to restaurants. But if you buy a ready meal in a supermarket and it's, let's say, "italian sausage pasta" - you can be 100% certain that the sausage in it is from Italy, guaranteed.

[Vendan]

Hah, you picked a rather odd example, cause "Italian sausage", in the US at least, isn't "sausage from Italy", it's a specific kind of seasoning.

[nommm-nommm]

What if I order "French fries?"

[Grishnakh]

Here in the US, "Italian X" or "French Y" just means that's the style. There's plenty of space on most labels to indicate a country of origin, and that's exactly what they do: foods made in Italy clearly state on them "Product of Italy" or similar. In fact, some food being made in Italy or France or anywhere in Europe is generally a plus over here, so they're not shy about putting that on the label.

In short, we don't need laws limiting what you can call things, with regard to country of origin, as long as product labels clearly indicate the country of origin. I know full well the $1.00 Chobani "Greek yogurt" isn't actually made in Greece, but some Greek-named expensive yogurt at the fancy grocery store I can guess probably is, and then after checking the label a bit more closely and seeing "Product of Greece" or "Made in Greece", I know it is.

Now, if some lotion says "Aloe Vera Lotion", I expect it to be made with real aloe. I really shouldn't have to check the ingredients list (if it even has one; it's not a food so I'm not sure that's required).

[module0000]

> I've had many comments on HN opposing the idea of making it law

It's common here(in the US) for "Greek yogurt" to mean Greek-style yogurt, and we would all ask "why!?" when confronted with that regulation. However, when you read stories like this - maybe that kind of regulation is needed. I've been buying aloe from walmart/target/etc for ages, and always assumed that the ingredient list wasn't a lie - now I realize that is not always true.

edit: typo

[MRSallee]

It's maybe just differing semantics between regions. In the US, no one would reasonably expect "Greek yogurt" to come from Greece -- "Greek" would be a category or style, not an origin.

If a yogurt was labeled as "made in Greece" then it would be expected it came from Greece and would be pretty uniformly agreed as fraud / false advertising if it was learned the yogurt wasn't made in Greece.

[gtk40]

While I do not care if my Greek yogurt comes from Greece anymore than I care if my Italian sausage comes from Italy, I do care that my Greek yogurt actually is very low in lactose as someone who is lactose intolerant. Most brands are fine, some are not and I question if they're really Greek yogurt.

[johnchristopher]

Wait. It's trickier than that because you have to get your product acknowledged by the EU then you get to be authorised to use that name (if your product is compliant with the rules ofc). It's not automatic.

Among other things it was one of the point of contention regarding CETA/TTIP.

[gambiting]

No, you're thinking of regional products. So for example, there's one specific type of cheese made in one region of Polish mountains that is called "oscypek" and no other cheese can be called "oscypek", even if it's made by the same methods(or I guess a more well known example is that only sparkling wine made in Champagne region of France can be called "Champagne" legally).

What I am talking about is that every product in EU has to be what it says on the label - so Greek yoghurt has to be from Greece. French wine has to be from France. Apple juice has to contains apple juice, not just apple flavouring, etc etc.

[johnchristopher]

Oh, I thought it was the same legal package (regional products and naming). You are right though: labels can't lie about the origin of the product.

[Spooky23]

Not libertarian -- laissez faire.

You have the "freedom" to test Aloe Gel.

[wnevets]

If you or your friends get sick, don't eat the same berries.

[CamperBob2]

One of the failings of the libertarian ideal.

Did you actually read the article before you posted this comment? You do understand that these findings were brought to light by Bloomberg, a private organization, and not by a government agency, right?

This is a flawless example of libertarian market regulation in action.

[jamroom]

I think a lot of people believe (rightly or wrongly) that in a "true" libertarian ideal it is "buyer beware" - the idea that bad companies will go under because people will stop buying their products - however there is collateral damage while they are sinking :/

[CamperBob2]

At some point you have to trust that most people and organizations are basically ethical. If that weren't true, then government would be no solution either.

Unfortunately it's true that there will be some "collateral damage" before fraudulent dealings come to light. But the only sure way to avoid it would be to bind the market with so much regulatory red tape that nothing new would ever be created. This is why we have one set of regulations for people looking to sell hand cream, and another for people looking to build nuclear power plants.

[stormbrew]

> If that weren't true, then government would be no solution either.

The idea behind modern democratic government is quite literally that this isn't true and that an organization that holds people's lives in its hands must be accountable to those people in a fair and equitable way. I have a vote in government. I do not have any reasonable sway over the behaviour of a multibillion dollar corporation. In so far as I place my trust in any organization (which I believe is prone to corruption), I place it in the one I have more voice in.

[CamperBob2]

The idea behind modern democratic government is quite literally that this isn't true...

Sounds like Benjamin Franklin would agree, at least superficially. ("Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.") But if you read a little more carefully, what he's really saying is that a free society depends on the sort of people who don't need an immensely powerful government to micromanage their lives.

... and that an organization that holds people's lives in its hands must be accountable to those people in a fair and equitable way.

Which it is. Have you read the article?

I have a vote in government. I do not have any reasonable sway over the behaviour of a multibillion dollar corporation. In so far as I place my trust in any organization (which I believe is prone to corruption), I place it in the one I have more voice in.

Yes, I think we've all seen how much of a "voice" we have in government.

[nickik]

Have you ever studied political science, political economy, voting theory or any of these subjects?

Government is not automatically fair and equitable because you vote. That's 1 grade level analysis.

> I do not have any reasonable sway over the behaviour of a multibillion dollar corporation.

Actually that is false. You spend all your money and you can choice not to spend on any particular object. For many companies, your $$$ are a bigger share of their profits then the share of your vote (consider that lots of products you buy are from the same company).

Additionally, something that you ignore, is that you share most of the same demands with all other consumers of the same product. While with voting you have totally different needs.

Plus, you can vote only a very limited amount of times and you have to consider 1000s of issues to consider. Can you tell me what the presidential candidates positions on Souther California Bean subsidy program are? Did you no that this program existed?

Government spends about 30-50% of the GDP and you get to vote a couple of times per year at most. While with the rest of your money, you are literally making more choice every day.

Lets get back to the shared interest point. All buyers of a product the same demand for correct labeling, good quality and so on. Thus collective action happens automatically without coordination. In case of fraud collective action is far easier as well. Coordination for collective action is also possible in the form of legal action.

What do you do if the FDA does you wrong? Send out letter of complaint?

Just imagen if all the products you want to consume in the next 4 years, you get two shipping containers and you have to pick one. Neither of the containers has much you like in it, but if you don't pick you will just get one at random. Also when you pick one, about 50% of the time you will not get that one anyway. Have fun eating eating vegan gluten free hamburgers the next year.

[ChuckMcM]

It becomes entirely a brand thing and is the original value proposition for brand names. By offering trade mark and trade dress protection for brand names it allows a manufacturer to make available test results, and to periodically inspect/test product for compliance with those results, so that the customer's expectations will be met.

These days people buy the "kirkland signature[1]" product and two things are true, the person most responsible for putting that product on the shelf in front of you is motivated by cutting manufacturing cost and maximizing profit above all other concerns, even whether or not the product resembles at all what the packaging says it does. They are not aligned with your desire for a quality product.

If you are a discerning customer you will find that the actual ingredients of, and quality, of a product with a house brand varies from state to state and year to year. That is an effect of the 'buyer' shopping around a contract to manufacturers, domestic and abroad, who will maximize their profit.

Of course that doesn't mean that if you buy a "brand name" that you are getting the best product. But at least the manufacturer is invested in the quality when it has their name on it and reasonably aligned with the consumer's interests. That goes out the window when it is someone else's name on the end product.

[1] This is the CostCo "house brand" for products they have sourced through a variety of manufacturers.

[brownbat]

As a counterexample, Kirkland Signature's extra virgin olive oil fares really well in independent lab tests, while still being low cost:

http://www.laweekly.com/restaurants/best-bargain-extra-virgi...

But you're right, brands are supposed to promise consistency, not quality. A McDonald's burger should be basically the same at any rest stop, that's one of the reasons they took off. Some brands don't even offer that though.

[Alex3917]

> Should I run my own lab to test every product I use?

Subscribe to one of the companies that do independent lab testing of consumer products and/or supplements.

Also, buy some field guides. You should be able to find medicinal plants for almost any condition within a couple miles of wherever you live. Wild Edibles Forage is the best app in this category for iOS. (In this case whether or not the plant/mushroom actually treats the condition is irrelevant if you were already planning on purchasing the same thing from the store.)

[bowmessage]

where do you live...?

[Alex3917]

I live in the Bronx and work in Manhattan. You're obviously not going to find aloe growing in central park, but there are at least half a dozen other plants there that can be used to treat minor burns and other skin conditions. E.g. plantago, jewelweed, witch hazel, etc.

According to at least one prominent American zen buddhist, the secret to the good life is, "stay together, learn the flowers, go light." This isn't some sort of metaphor, go outside.

[mattdotc]

Surely you aren't suggesting that New Yorkers should forage in Central Park...it's a public space, not your privately-owned backyard.

[Alex3917]

> It's a public space, not your privately-owned backyard.

If you're collecting invasive plants then you're basically doing free community service. Obviously you shouldn't uproot native plants, although picking taking fruit from them isn't harmful, nor is taking foliage when done in limited amounts.

[psyc]

I am personally giving them my blessing to do it, and do it boldly.

[gkop]

People have foraged in Central Park since it was first built. Yes foraging can cause problems, but it hasn't ruined the park, and there are benefits.

[sqldba]

1) Always assume that you are being lied to. 2) Gather evidence that can be used to prove whether claims are true or not. 3) Make your purchasing decision.

If you think about it this is not that crazy.

When you buy one of these products from the store you are entirely relying on the manufacturing claiming it has Aloe. Evidence? Absolutely zero. Do they publish anything on the bottle certifying it has aloe?

If they did then you'd want to be able to look up fact sheets and such about where, how, and when it is tested. If the company doesn't provide them it's because they're lying. If they do provide them, it may still be falsified, but you have a higher degree of certainty than you do reading the bottle.

So you don't buy it.

"But I have to put something on my skin! I might be missing out! They could all be lying about something!" isn't much of an excuse. Coming from the POV that they're all lying, you aren't missing out, until they prove otherwise.

With every purchase you're actually taking a losing gamble on the possibility that they're telling the truth, when they've got no reason to do so and provide no evidence to the contrary.

[thatcat]

Much easier to just grow an aloe plant in your bathroom

[riphay]

I think that misses the point of the comment. You don't establish confidence in a system by just ignoring it and doing it yourself. If you take your logic to its natural conclusion, we should all just farm our own food as it's the only way to trust it.

[thatcat]

Exactly. Branding is devaluing itself. Distributed systems in which you interact personally become less complicated than verifying an unknown substance. If every plant was as easy to grow as an aloe, this would totally scale, unfortunately this is not the case. It's a succulent so you never have to water them, use very little nutrients and require little light. I haven't watered mine in like 3 months, it's fine.

[puddintane]

This is exactly what I do, it's fairly easy compared to other plants. As well as it feels much more soothing without all the extra additives for keeping freshness.

[marcosdumay]

> it's fairly easy compared to other plants

For a few months, I've tried killing an Aloe Vera plant that shared a place with some other species. That is a hard task.

In the end, after every other plant died, I dug it up, and made it into pieces with a saw, so I could move it. I gave 3 pieces to a friend, that now owns 3 fully healthy Aloe Vera plants.

[drvdevd]

My thoughts exactly. It's a fairly set and forget plant and looks pretty cool as well.

[FireBeyond]

"“Acemannan has been misinterpreted,’’ Meadows said. “The cosmetics industry requires highly processed aloe. How that affects acemannan is anybody’s guess.’’"

You work for a company that supplies aloe to the cosmetics industry. The 'anybody' in 'anybody's guess' is ... you.

[Broken_Hippo]

You might not need to be careful.

I find it pretty disgusting that the products don't seem to contain the stuff they claim to contain. So avoid some products on this principle, certainly, and hope the others hold up to their ingredient list: Alternatively, an aloe plant will help a little or for sunburns, something with lidocaine if you aren't opposed to that will actually work (FDA drug label and all those protections with that variety).

However, it seems that the article mentions that a food additive seems to be the preferred substitute - it is likely that the products are safe, even if they weren't the aloe they were claiming. Furthermore, they probably work for immediate relief and moisturization (though possibly not in the healing bit found in some studies [1]). Unless you've skin sensitivities, buy away if whatever happens to be in the product meets your needs.

[1]https://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/aloe

[tripzilch]

> Should I run my own lab to test every product I use?

no you just look at the mandated ingredient list which is required to say "Aloe Vera x%" is it has one of the ingredients as part of the name of the product.

mind you that x is probably less than 2 or so.

I kind of wonder, since this apparently isn't mandatory in the US, are people aware that if you buy fruit juice of say pomegranate or cranberry or acai or mango, it's almost always more than 75% apple or white grape juice, and probably less than 5% of the fruit listed, yes? I mean it's clearly on our labels and I still think it's a scam, but what if you can't even know.

[nommm-nommm]

Uh... No. The whole issue here is the ingredients list says it contains aloe but the label is lying.

"The products all listed aloe barbadensis leaf juice — another name for aloe vera — as either the No. 1 ingredient or No. 2 after water."

[Johnny555]

I think they mean you're supposed to look for the unnatural fluorescent green color that so many of these manufacturers add to these products to show how natural it is. (even though the natural aloe juice is nearly colorless)

[hinkley]

I figure before I'm too old the breathe there'll be someone selling a tricorder to rich people to do exactly that.

Is that real crab in your crab Rangoon? Does it have mercury? How much? Red tide toxins? You can never be too sure!

[rconti]

Consumer Reports, for one.

[will_brown]

In the specific case of Aloe it's not out of the question to grow your own or at least buy unprocessed aloe leaves in a supermarket.