[glenstein]

I think the real lesson of the story isn't that the system is "working", it's that we've (society) been purchasing tons and tons of a product for who knows how long that has been inauthentic, without any idea that it was the case. How long has this been happening? For how many other products is this the case?

It's certainly better that we know and (hopefully) some corrective action is taken, but overall I'd read it as a signal of dysfunction. And I don' think macintux is suggesting that we're presently within the libertarian ideal, rather we're in the universe where it's considered a responsibility of the state to prevent these kinds of things from happening, yet they are still happening. So look what happened here, and imagine what would happen with even fewer failsafes...

[semi-extrinsic]

> we've (society) been purchasing tons and tons of a product for who knows how long that has been inauthentic, without any idea that it was the case

Also, whenever this happens, one should stop and consider:

"Why are we buying aloe vera products in the first place, when millions of people using the product for years are unable to detect that it's fake?"

If this happened with something tangible, say replacing all regular coke with diet coke without changing the labels, it would be noticed immediately.

Whenever people buy something which they are completely unable to differentiate from a fake, are they really being defrauded when someone sells them the fake?

[klagermkii]

> Whenever people buy something which they are completely unable to differentiate from a fake, are they really being defrauded when someone sells them the fake?

Yes.

[mzw_mzw]

I think the point was that the real thing is just as much (or as little) of a fraud as the fake is.

[aarongolliver]

Especially because, if someone's been buying fakes all their life, how could they possibly know what real Aloe is like?

[albedoa]

Whenever people buy something which they are completely unable to differentiate from a fake, are they really being defrauded when someone sells them the fake?

You are seriously confusing the placebo effect with ignorance of the expected effect.

It is fraud not because the user perceives the expected effect but because the user has been told that the perceived effect is the expected one.

[burkaman]

What if it was something like soap? How could you possibly tell if you were buying fake soap? If you get sick, do you immediately suspect that your soap supplier has defrauded you?

[semi-extrinsic]

There is a difference between fake and dangerous.

[kcanini]

> Whenever people buy something which they are completely unable to differentiate from a fake, are they really being defrauded when someone sells them the fake?

Yes.

[cmurf]

I see it as an example of both market and government failure.

Edit: FTFA "There’s no watchdog assuring that aloe products are what they say they are. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration doesn’t approve cosmetics before they’re sold and has never levied a fine for selling fake aloe." OK so I'm wrong, it's just market failure, the government isn't even involved in this.

[Steel_Phoenix]

Not entirely wrong. You're proof that people have the expectation that products are being well regulated. I think most people do assume this, even if they can't name a law or regulatory authority that would do so.

In a way, we're getting the worst of both worlds. The lack of oversight from an unregulated environment with the consumer complacency of a regulated one. If we could downplay the amount of oversight on products, people might be more skeptical as consumers. Putting analytical technology or services in the hands of consumers would be even better.

[pbhjpbhj]

When there's such a blatant and obvious breach of the law, in this case a fraud, against a large number of citizens (all the people who bought the product), then shouldn't the government themselves wade in and initiate legal proceedings - with an independent judiciary what's the problem with that?

Surely there is a government department that covers product fraud? In the UK we have Trading Standards (and the Advertising Standards Agency (ASA) [which might be a NGO?]) that would both be in part responsible to take action on the consumers behalf ... presumably there's some action needed in the UK now, can't imagine this is only in USA.

Mind you from the article it sounds like the fraud is in quantity of Aloe Vera added; that these products may have 1ppm of Aloe Vera or something??

[sqldba]

It's weird that there's no general law covering this in America.

In Australia we have the Australian Consumer Law which covers basics like, "It has to do/be/contain what it says it does," otherwise you get a refund or replacement.

I... don't know how anyone can survive without this most basic protection.

[nsxwolf]

I think one of the reasons this particular situation went on this long is that aloe is kind of a bullshit product in the first place. What do you use it for, sunburn? Can you honestly tell the difference between some putting some jelly with aloe in it on your sunburn vs some other jelly? I don't think it's obviously effective in the way that Tylenol is on a fever or headache.

[will_brown]

I feel very confident you don't live in a tropical climate and have never experienced the application of fresh cut aloe plant.

Aloe in plant form is the real deal, and more so than any commercially processed aloe product (w/added pain relievers) or other after sun product I am aware of. It significantly defies pain/discomfort, keeps the skin moisturized and in many cases can prevent peeling from burns.

Plus you can eat/juice the gel and it has hydration and anti-toxin benefits.

[dpark]

> I feel very confident you don't live in a tropical climate and have never experienced the application of fresh cut aloe plant.

I feel very confident that this is irrelevant since lotion you might buy at Wal-Mart is definitely not fresh cut aloe regardless of whether it contains small amounts of aloe juice.

> Plus you can eat/juice the gel and it has hydration and anti-toxin benefits.

Whenever someone makes a generic reference to "toxins", I immediately doubt anything else that they say with respect to health or medicine. There are many things that are toxic to humans but there are no things that are generically "anti-toxin" except maybe water. I cannot imagine that aloe has any effect on mercury exposure, or cyanide consumption, or even tobacco smoke inhalation.

[will_brown]

>I feel very confident that this is irrelevant since lotion you might buy at Wal-Mart is definitely not fresh cut aloe

Well it isn't irrelevant because in tropical climates you are much more likely to have experienced sunburn, have ready access to aloe plants and personal experience with its benefits. For example, processed aloe gels aside Walmart's in South Florida generally will have fresh cut aloe vera plant in their produce section, not sure if that is true in non-tropical climates. Nevertheless, my point is clearly not address the aloe lotion in the article but rather claim of the comment that aloe vera itself is bullshit.

> I cannot imagine that aloe has any effect on mercury exposure, or cyanide consumption, or even tobacco smoke inhalation.

Just because I didn't go into detail doesn't mean I am making a blanket claim anti-toxin benefits means you pick any toxin you like and aloe is the answer. That is on par with losing faith in anti-biotics because people discuss anti-biotics generally but we know a given anti-biotic may not be appropriate for any and all bacterial infections. Anyway because I didn't label the toxins doesn't erase the decades of scientific studies which are pretty conclusive toxic heavy metals, including mercury and lead, readily bind with aloe vera. For example, when plants grown in polluted environments where heavy metal toxins are present other plants might not even show traces but the aloe plants will be off the charts. In the human body this binding process allows you to expel some of the heavy metal toxins. I believe studies show cilantro have a similar effect with heavy metal toxins in the body particularly mercury.

[dpark]

> my point is clearly not address the aloe lotion in the article but rather claim of the comment that aloe vera itself is bullshit.

Fair enough, but you were responding to a comment specifically talking about aloe in lotion (or "jelly" as the nsxwolf put it).

Personally, I'm not very convinced about the value of aloe, in lotions or fresh cut. I think it has therapeutic value, but I'm not at all convinced in has more value than other modern lotions that also sooth and protect the skin. I think aloe gets a free ride on the modern "natural" train, where people tend to assume that "natural" is better without any proof.

> Just because I didn't go into detail doesn't mean I am making a blanket claim anti-toxin benefits means you pick any toxin you like and aloe is the answer.

There are two problems with the term "toxins". One, it's a generically huge category, akin to "illnesses". Saying that aloe is good for "illnesses" is meaningless. Even if it's good for some particular illnesses or toxins, it's not a general solution and referring to it as such is misleading. No medical professional would say that antibiotics are good for "illnesses" because it's misleading to the point that it's nearly a lie.

Second, the people talking about "toxins" are generally snake-oil salesmen pushing "natural healing" practices with no scientific evidence. By referring to toxins in a general sense, it associates the subject of the statement with fraud. If aloe is good for dealing with "toxins", it's good for specific toxins that can be discussed directly. The reason frauds talk about "toxins" is because it sounds scary and is virtually impossible to refute directly because the category is so broad that it's meaningless.

> Anyway because I didn't label the toxins doesn't erase the decades of scientific studies which are pretty conclusive toxic heavy metals, including mercury and lead, readily bind with aloe vera.

Can you provide any evidence for this claim? I did a quick search and found nothing except "natural medicine" sites making vague claims about its benefits with no citations.

Meanwhile I did find evidence that aloe itself may be dangerous when ingested, as it's known to cause tumors in rodents as well as kidney, liver, and other problems in some humans.

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/aloe/index.cfm

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-607...

[will_brown]

>but you were responding to a comment specifically talking about aloe in lotion (or "jelly" as the nsxwolf put it).

In the later part of his comment yes, but I took this part to be a more blanket statement of aloe:

>I think one of the reasons this particular situation went on this long is that aloe is kind of a bullshit product in the first place.

>but I'm not at all convinced in has more value than other modern lotions that also sooth and protect the skin.

I am not here to convince, but recklessly on this issue tell people in this thread, if you do not believe in aloe plant, then I know you don't live in the tropics (where sunburns and aloe plant are common place). Basically what I am saying is deniers have no personal experience with aloe plant and yet it is a very simple thing to test. So far everyone who denied I have asked refuses to acknowledge they have zero personal experience with aloe plant. The problem if what you call failure of proof, someone like me with over 30 years of personal sun care experience is called anecdotal evidence, and yet the people with no proof believe their gut. So I encourage you to get your own proof, not saying get a sunburn, but it is no more difficult to test than sunscreen itself in terms of obvious proof.

>Can you provide any evidence for this claim?

The very reason you have found evidence of aloe being dangerous is because as I said it binds to heavy metal toxins...not just in the human body but in the earth. Moreover, yes if it is grown in polluted areas it will show more signs of those heavy metals than other plants.

The present investigation shows that the A. Vera plant is effective and inexpensive adsorbent for the removal of Pb, Cd, Ni, Cu, Cr (III) and Cr (VI) from contaminated soil by heavy metals. See: http://biomedpharmajournal.org/vol9no2/removal-of-selected-h...

The aim of this study was to assess the accumulation of heavy metals (Na, K, Ca, Mg, P, Fe, Cu, Zn, Cd and Pb) in Aloe vera leaves grown in different geographical locations of India. The results also showed that Aloe vera plant can also be used as a good Phytoremediation agent as it absorbs heavy metals from the soil in high quantity. See: http://www.ansfoundation.org/Uploaded%20Pdf/22/300-304.pdf

General health benefits, including active ingredients and burn applications. See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK92765/

[NikolaeVarius]

The medical benefits of Aloe are actually fairly shaky scientifically.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1313538/ CONCLUSION: Even though there are some promising results, clinical effectiveness of oral or topical aloe vera is not sufficiently defined at present.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/aloe/evidence/hr...

[coryfklein]

> Aloe in plant form is the real deal

FWIW, a quick review on wikipedia indicates that there is no scientific consensus on the effectiveness of aloe in the treatment of burns.

[will_brown]

Maybe, but according to wikipedia/the internet there is no scientific consensus that sunscreen works either or that global warming exists. Yet entire island nations are disappearing and the deniers just call that anecdotal.

Despite no scientific consensus of sunscreen, have you ever seen someone who forgot to apply sunscreen to a certain part of their body and its the only area that gets burned? That is one hell of a placebo.

Alternatively the same is true of aloe, you can witness people who already have a burn and apply aloe to certain areas and not others and the burn will clear up quicker and even potentially the skin will not peel where aloe was used and may peel where it was not utilized.

Now whether there is scientific consensus or not, if that is what you bring to the table, I will go out on a limb like I did with the parent post and say you have no personal experience using aloe plant for sunburn.

[ddeck]

>Maybe, but according to wikipedia/the internet there is no scientific consensus that sunscreen works either or that global warming exists.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_...

The scientific consensus is that the Earth's climate system is unequivocally warming, and that it is extremely likely (meaning 95% probability or higher) that this warming is predominantly caused by humans. It is likely that this mainly arises from increased concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, such as from deforestation and the burning of fossil fuels, partially offset by human caused increases in aerosols; natural changes had little effect

[nsxwolf]

Sunscreen not working is news to me. I burn easily. You can see burned finger marks on the areas of my skin that I miss.

This seems trivially easy to test.

[will_brown]

Exactly, I am not claiming sunscreen doesn't work, I am just saying you can find such claims on the internet - same as claims aloe does not work - sunscreen obviously works and is easily testable as you point out -which was my whole point as well - and same is true of easily testing aloe on sunburns. That is why I claim anyone who denies aloe effectiveness on sunburns doesn't have personal experience and I would make the same claims about people who doubt sunscreen.

[kevin_thibedeau]

You don't have to live in the tropics to grow aloe. They can survive a winter in a sunny window. And yes, it most definitely does work on sunburn straight from the plant.

[nommm-nommm]

When I was a child I got a very bad grease burn. Fresh aloe cut right from the plant was applied it to the burn. Didn't seem to do anything.

[will_brown]

The enzymes in aloe reduce inflammation, increase blood flow to the damaged tissue, provide antibacterial compounds to avoid infection and stimulate cell production to speed up healing.

Now I understand the above can be both read fairly (i.e. similarly honey has antibacterial properties and has been used to treat wounds from ancient times through the Civil War) or unfairly (magical claims aloe is a cure all). Moreover, I am not claiming a single application is going to magically make a burn disappear. However, the same way one might continually apply neosporin, a burn cream and/or vitamin E to a burn to obtain certain benefits one might see similar benefits of those three from an aloe plant.

Certainly it is a lot more difficult to test the benefits of aloe on a grease burn rather than a sunburn where aloe can be continually applied in certain areas, sparingly in certain areas and not at all in others. Think of a sunscreen where someone uses sunscreen on half their body and nothing on the other half, then in reverse advertising aloe, by no means am I saying its a 1:1 but the difference would be no less noticeable.

[nommm-nommm]

You'd probably get the same effect if you applied lotion.

[will_brown]

Well you will get the same effect if, as I said, if your lotion is some combination of neosporin, Vitamin E and burn cream. Though cutting free aloe plant is more cost effective. Anyway good luck rubbing lotion on your grease burns and sunburns...maybe try that instead of sunscreen too.

[semi-extrinsic]

FWIW, aloe isn't really a good remedy for sunburn. A sunburn, like any other skinburn, should be treated quickly with lots of running water slightly colder than lukewarm; i.e. a cold shower. That's a lot more efficient due to basic physics.

[dllthomas]

Could you spell out the basic physics? I am having trouble connecting it to anything I learned in school. Biology/chemistry seems substantially more relevant.

[semi-extrinsic]

To help heal the sunburn you must cool the skin. Aloe can only cool by a very small amount, as compared to running cool water.

[stouset]

Sunburn has nothing to do with temperature. You can get a third-degree sunburn in sub-freezing temperatures.

[Kroniker]

It has to do with UV-irritation, I believe. This guy might be talking about getting burned by the sun, perhaps by being too close ;)

[semi-extrinsic]

Sunburn is inflammation of the skin. Inflammation is typically treated by cooling (e.g. when you put ice on a sprained ankle).

[dllthomas]

It's that first step that isn't clear to me. It may be the case, but it needs something other than physics to tell us that - and it doesn't tell us why slightly-cooler-than-lukewarm water is better than ice water.

[semi-extrinsic]

You generally treat mild inflammation by cooling. The reason why you don't want to use ice water is because that will cool the outer layer of your skin to the point of pain before it's cooled the deeper layers significantly. Using slightly cold water means you can stay in the water for fifteen minutes easily, cooling all the skin layers well.

I thought this was common knowledge, i.e. basic first aid for burns in general?

[WildUtah]

Evidence of the effectiveness of Tylenol on fever or headache is very, very weak. It's similar to the evidence for aloe.

Mostly Tylenol is administered as a placebo. Fake aloe is at least useful as a moisturizer.

[chillacy]

Really? I found several double blind studies showing the effectiveness of acetaminophen on headaches:

http://www.neurology.org/content/48/1/103.short

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/10...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1526-4610.2006....