There are limits, practical as well as rhetorical. Not everyone wants to be lectured about how unconditional kindness is their duty and responsibility. Not everyone wants to be told that this kindness needs to come at significant expense at a time when (insert fiscal problems here, such as Greece or the UK) are already occurring.
I don't want to pay extra taxes to help foreigners, I'll gladly donate money to charities. But the second my country started demanding I pay taxes to help refugees, all my income moved over to HK.
And no, I don't have a problem with refugees, I'm glad to help them. I have a problem with the state _forcing_ me to help them.
Yeah I can understand your point. Not nice being told what to do or forced what to do.
When did the UK start demanding taxes to help refugees btw? I'm not aware of this.
:S. Wait, so you'd rather move your money to HK who can use it for what they want than allow some to be paid to help refugees? You're aware that only 1% of the UK budget goes to foreign aid? So of your money being taxed so like 0.0025% of your money will be going to help?
If you knew enough to move your money offshore I would have said you knew enough to know that too, so I presume you had loads of other reasons to move it not just this.
You can be responsible, and it doesn't has to be in the way that allows 'refugees' into your country. People in each country ought to have a choice in that.
True - there's still ways of helping without that.
But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country? Why are people so scared of this? (genuine question =))
It seems to me the only countries whom are scared are the ones who think they're the best, greatest and fear loosing that status. This sounds like idk...country ego? lol.
> But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country? Why are people so scared of this? (genuine question =))
It's the fear of letting people with very, very, different social standards in our countries. And it's warranted.
More than 50% of these refugees believe that whoever leaves the faith of Islam should suffer the death penalty and that adultery should be dealt with stoning to death.
We are not talking about a minority here, we are talking about the majority of them. So, you really shouldn't have to ask why are we afraid of letting them in in such big numbers, the questions should be, how can we do the right thing and still protect the social freedom values we hold dear in the West while doing so.
Perhaps you're being downvoted because your source does not once refer to immigrants, refugees or migrants. You've presented no evidence which suggests that migrants (a particularly self-selecting group) are a uniform sampling of the population of the countries that they hail from. You've made quite an assumption there. If your polls showed the opinions of Muslims already in Western European countries, then maybe we could start to talk about the ramifications of culture clashes. As it stands now, you're looking for what you want to see: "Muslims are scary!".
I'd venture to say that people, in general, that are willing to move (east to west, or west to east) are probably more inclined to adapt to the place where they are going than the ones that stay in their country of origin.
> Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe?
The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.
No, it seems you have no interest in being coherent. How is a newly arrived refugee/migrant a Muslim from a Western country?
Also, the data VERY CLEARLY states than more than 2/3 of the Muslims living in the European countries in the sample believe that the Sharia should be applied to the Muslims living there (the ones that actually live there, so, the culturally integrated ones according to you).
Care to explain where is your cultural assimilation now?
1. Above, you are lamenting the fact that Western countries allow Muslims in. (I shed a single tear for your cause.)
2. You suggest that "we" (presumably Western Christians) should be afraid of Muslims because the majority believe that "non-believers" should be stoned, etc.
3. You present "evidence" that shows that the majority of Muslims that currently live in particular Middle Eastern countries subscribe to those beliefs.
4. My retort: where is the evidence that Muslims refugees from those same countries to Western countries, actually believe those things at the same rate?
If you give me a poll of Muslim refugees in the USA/Germany/Sweden etc. with results that are similar to the link you've already posted, then maybe you have half a leg to stand on. Until then, enjoy your miserliness.
EDIT: It's called a reply button. I've made no claims regarding the European countries in your example. Save for Russia, those are majority Muslim countries. Islam in Russia is a special case, with certain regions having dense pockets of Muslims. [1] Cultural assimilation would suggest that immigrants will tend towards whatever mainstream beliefs prevail there, in this case Islam. The same cannot be said for most Western European countries, where irreligiousness or Christian social mores prevail. Are you suggesting that Muslim countries kick their own Muslims out? Do you know anything about those countries?
> I'd venture to say that people, in general, that are willing to move (east to west, or west to east) are probably more inclined to adapt to the place where they are going than the ones that stay in their country of origin.
Also, so, know you are telling us that these people choose to migrate West, they are not really forced to do so? It's quite an incoherent sentence from someone defending (as I do actually) that most of these people have no choice but to leave their country because of the war.
But well, we all know coherence and politics don't really go well together with most of the people.
Is it that hard to fathom that there's multiple variables at play in deciding when one decides to leave their homeland for greener pastures? Cultural factors, economic factors, social factors, the presence of war/peace are all things that play into an individual's decision to pack up and move. Different people have difference tolerance for different things.
As a thought experiment: someone with a higher tolerance for different cultures and a lower tolerance for violence is more likely to move sooner than someone with an equivalent tolerance for violence and a lower tolerance for different cultures, no?
> But well, we all know coherence and politics don't really go well together with most of the people.
Mhmm, I can definitely see that. Make better arguments than "Muslims are scary!" and you wouldn't have to resort to underhandedness.
So, migrants are not a good sample of the population of the country they originate from. They are special in some way and by taking a 3000 Km journey trough Africa they are already Westernised even before setting foot in Europe.
Makes perfect sense... I mean, makes perfect sense to try and deny reality in such an obvious way.
How many destitute people do you house in your own home? Why only that number and not more? If zero, why is that? What percentage of your income are you donating to support refugees? Why is that percentage not higher?
Ooo, there's a hefty underlying assumption in your post.
I have previously taken people off the street, three times.
I do not currently have anyone living in my home because I have moved back to my disabled Mums which is a 3 bedroom house already with 5 people living there.
Why am I living at my Mums?
I give 100% of my time to helping others and i'm in the process of starting a social enterprise to develop technology to help others in a variety of situations. We've already designed and nearly finish an app to help women in domestic violence situations, tools to help kids with dyslexia, tools for autism. Every penny will go back into creating more tools and technologies to help.
Then I can buy an Island. Yep, i'm not even kidding that's my ambition.
"What percentage of your income are you donating to support refugees? Why is that percentage not higher?" - I currently give no funds to refugees because I put all of my funds into creating other projects to help others in different domains. I feel that investing in these which will generate more income will give more income to help more people.
Caseysoftware - i've had exactly three people crash at my house who were homeless strangers. Only for a few nights each.
I have also got chatting to a homeless dude who turned out to be an artist. He carried on a pen drive pictures he'd created over the last few years but he had no computer access and no way to get them. I said i'd take a look and the next day went into a shop and printed every single picture, paid for it and gave it to him.
I have no problem giving to strangers and not getting anything in return. I get something back naturally, I feel happier that they are happier.
Hence i'm in the process of starting a social enterprise =).
I won't be for a long time. I've just moved back into my disabled Mum's house which has 3 small bedrooms and 5 people. Cramped conditions but I work as much as possible on a social enterprise.
In a few years time I dream i'll be able to provide much more housing than space on my couch. There are alternatives to just giving housing.
I take it you've spoken to loads of refuges then and that's exactly what they said then? "Our childrens lives are at risk, but we fancy risking them more to come to a generous country".
I think you misunderstood my point and took it too literally: who cares who's responsible. We can still help people unconditionally without expecting anything in return but within reason.
"Hey man, you're going through a really hard time at the moment. It's not my fault what has happened to you and it's not your fault this has happened to you either. But I would be happy to help you regardless."
Now, wouldn't that be an amazing place to be? Well done Germany, Iceland and the others.
--- Slightly off topic
There's videos of locals all going up and greeting refuges and offering toys, food, donations. I can't imagine how amazing it must feel after years of hardship and death on your door to see happy faces greeting you with open arms. That right there would give me hope and a strong feeling of wanting to do everything possibly to repay the people who helped me in my desperate time of need.
P.s I wasn't a refugee, but I did grow up in refuges as a child and I met and spoke to refugees. This was going back 18 years ago now, much has changed but I met the most incredible and inspirational people there.
The legal codes we're subject to, whether we are or we aren't.
I believe in most locales people are responsible for their own children, but - and correct me if I'm wrong, happy to learn something - I don't think there's anything in there that makes anyone responsible for random strangers on the other side of the planet.
Again, this doesn't have anything to do with whether we should be responsible for random strangers on the other side of the planet.
But - we can choose to be. Or choose not to be. I.e we, individually say if we are or are not. It is our choice.
I choose to be (as much as I can, and I may not be able to do much in these circumstances but I try in others of my life as much as possible and I dedicate most of my time to others).
I choose to be because I believe this builds a better planet and it encourages help rather than a "I'm not helping i'm not responsible. Find the person to blame and make them pay". But how do we ever find the person to blame?
Is it the refugee coming over in hope with their family for a better life?
Is it the people fighting in the war?
The people who started the war?
Who should pay the price?
In my studies of humanity and cultures the place that most inspired me was an island where every child was taken care of by every family on that island. There were no barriers, parents treated every kid as their own.
So, forgive my post if it has come across as convincing people they should take responsibility that was not the case. I was asking a genuine question in the sense, why can we not help? Why does responsibility matter really?
