[jbssm]

So, migrants are not a good sample of the population of the country they originate from. They are special in some way and by taking a 3000 Km journey trough Africa they are already Westernised even before setting foot in Europe.

Makes perfect sense... I mean, makes perfect sense to try and deny reality in such an obvious way.

[rmxt]

Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe?

The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.

[jk4930]

Turkish Muslims (the majority of Muslims in Germany) were polled on the following:

1. Islam is the only true religion: 72% YES 2. There should be a Muslim majority in Germany: 46% YES 3. Want only Muslims as neighbours: 62% YES

> http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuer...

[rmxt]

Fair enough, they have strong religious beliefs. So do lots of people. Why does that mean Muslims shouldn't be allowed into a given country? Why should Islam be singled out?

Also, apparently from the same survey:

"Furthermore, the willingness of Turkish migrants and their descendents to integrate into German society remains high and is climbing. Whereas 70 percent said in 2010 that they want to "absolutely and without reservations integrate into German society," the new survey found that 78 percent of respondents agreed. Similarly, whereas 59 percent said two years ago that they wanted to belong to German society, 75 percent say so now. Fully 95 percent say that all children with Turkish backgrounds should go to day care facilities so as to learn German prior to entering school."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/survey-turks-in-...

Why does religiosity matter if the desire to integrate is there?

[jbssm]

Seriously, the complete hypocrisy of your comment is too big to actually be true.

So, we are a bunch of xenophobes because we are concerned about people that clearly have social norms that are against our most basic principles of freedom are entering our countries.

But when 62% of Muslims already living in Germany say they want to live only next to other Muslims then, you don't see a problem there and claim they are perfectly integrated.

Seriously, you took hypocrisy to an all new level with that comment.

If we say: We want to live only next to other people that share the basics of European culture = we are a bunch of racist pigs. If they say: We want to live only next to Muslims = nothing to see here, just perfectly integrated and westernised Muslims.

[rmxt]

I've never said anything about anyone being racist, so forget the playing the victim card a la "bunch of racist pigs."

Being afraid of outsiders is pretty much the definition of "xenophobia," so yes, you are seemingly a xenophobe. [1] And, self-describedly, an Islamophobe. ("So, you really shouldn't have to ask why are we afraid of letting them in in such big numbers")

I've never claimed perfect integration, I'm claiming that I don't think that letting Muslims into Western countries is going to cause the social fabric to crumble as you seem to think. I would hope that both sides could be a little more accommodating: Western countries allowing disadvantaged refugees safe harbor, and Muslim immigrant communities willing to adapt somewhat to Western standards. There is actual research done on integration in these communities, above and beyond this single poll that you've been hanging on to. [2] Despite what you insist on believing, immigrants do actually adapt to their environments.

Lastly, you seem to want to paint the issue as cut and dry: put special restrictions on entry for Muslims, and social conflict won't arise between people who have differing values. That doesn't solve any issues! What do you do about disaffected Muslim communities already in Western countries? What is the best way to ensure a harmonious society? I think the answer lies somewhere between your claims of "don't let them in" and "let them all in and Sharia law will come to the West." Instead of castigating existing Islamic communities and placing restrictions on them, why not give them a fair shake and see what happens? A "fair shake" meaning one that doesn't single them out for their religious beliefs. (Hey, isn't that one of those "social freedom values" you were talking about?)

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/xenophobia

[2] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9248.2012....

[ashleyp]

Man, way to put words into someones mouth.

[jbssm]

Source is here for instance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sh...

36% of Muslims living in UK believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death. But I'm sure you will find some way to nitpick out of this and tell me that these Muslims don't count. Right?

Also, in case you intellectual honesty doesn't allow you to figure out, these are that Muslims that in their great majority are supposed to be already westernised since they actually lived for a long time (or were even born) in the West.

[rmxt]

Take off the hate goggles and maybe you'll see that your sarcasm is actually true:

"these are that Muslims that in their great majority are supposed to be already westernised" == "86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians"

86.4% sounds like a "great majority" (whatever that means), to me.

[jbssm]

Oh yes, they are westernised into 36% of them (the young ones, the ones that mostly were already born here) thinking that whoever leaves the religion of Islam should be killed.

Geez, I seriously wonder what is your concept of NOT westernised? 50%, 70%, 100% of them believing in murder in the name of their religion or what? Please let us know if you actually have a number or if anything fits into your version of "westernised"

[ashleyp]

rmxt I don't think there's much point debating with this guy. He's not interested in learning and sharing his understanding. Only interested in proving he's right and I'm not even sure he knows what he's trying to prove right anymore. He's finding anything he can to backup his argument, not sharing sources that he used to formulate his opinions.