[ashleyp]

True - there's still ways of helping without that.

But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country? Why are people so scared of this? (genuine question =))

It seems to me the only countries whom are scared are the ones who think they're the best, greatest and fear loosing that status. This sounds like idk...country ego? lol.

[jbssm]

> But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country? Why are people so scared of this? (genuine question =))

It's the fear of letting people with very, very, different social standards in our countries. And it's warranted.

More than 50% of these refugees believe that whoever leaves the faith of Islam should suffer the death penalty and that adultery should be dealt with stoning to death.

We are not talking about a minority here, we are talking about the majority of them. So, you really shouldn't have to ask why are we afraid of letting them in in such big numbers, the questions should be, how can we do the right thing and still protect the social freedom values we hold dear in the West while doing so.

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religi...

EDIT: It's funny that I'm being downvoted for answering exactly your question and providing evidence about it from a well know and neutral source.

[rmxt]

Perhaps you're being downvoted because your source does not once refer to immigrants, refugees or migrants. You've presented no evidence which suggests that migrants (a particularly self-selecting group) are a uniform sampling of the population of the countries that they hail from. You've made quite an assumption there. If your polls showed the opinions of Muslims already in Western European countries, then maybe we could start to talk about the ramifications of culture clashes. As it stands now, you're looking for what you want to see: "Muslims are scary!".

I'd venture to say that people, in general, that are willing to move (east to west, or west to east) are probably more inclined to adapt to the place where they are going than the ones that stay in their country of origin.

[jbssm]

> Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe? The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.

No, it seems you have no interest in being coherent. How is a newly arrived refugee/migrant a Muslim from a Western country?

Also, the data VERY CLEARLY states than more than 2/3 of the Muslims living in the European countries in the sample believe that the Sharia should be applied to the Muslims living there (the ones that actually live there, so, the culturally integrated ones according to you).

Care to explain where is your cultural assimilation now?

[rmxt]

Ah, so no source. Great!

Let me simplify it for you:

1. Above, you are lamenting the fact that Western countries allow Muslims in. (I shed a single tear for your cause.)

2. You suggest that "we" (presumably Western Christians) should be afraid of Muslims because the majority believe that "non-believers" should be stoned, etc.

3. You present "evidence" that shows that the majority of Muslims that currently live in particular Middle Eastern countries subscribe to those beliefs.

4. My retort: where is the evidence that Muslims refugees from those same countries to Western countries, actually believe those things at the same rate?

If you give me a poll of Muslim refugees in the USA/Germany/Sweden etc. with results that are similar to the link you've already posted, then maybe you have half a leg to stand on. Until then, enjoy your miserliness.

EDIT: It's called a reply button. I've made no claims regarding the European countries in your example. Save for Russia, those are majority Muslim countries. Islam in Russia is a special case, with certain regions having dense pockets of Muslims. [1] Cultural assimilation would suggest that immigrants will tend towards whatever mainstream beliefs prevail there, in this case Islam. The same cannot be said for most Western European countries, where irreligiousness or Christian social mores prevail. Are you suggesting that Muslim countries kick their own Muslims out? Do you know anything about those countries?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Islam_in_Russia.png

[jbssm]

Yes, yes, if you nitpick enough you can bypass all obstacles, like:

1-The fact these are people just arriving Europe, they aren't westernised by any means.

2-The fact that the vast majority of Muslims living in other European countries shown in the study do believe in following the Sharia law.

3-The fact that you claim that these people are in some way different than the majority of the people in their countries, just because you want too.

Perfect, you managed to find that the 1% of the African people that suits your alternate reality are the only refugees/migrants that are arriving in Europe. Well done.

EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sh...

P.S. - 36% of Muslims living in UK believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death. But I'm sure you will find some way to nitpick out of this and tell me that these Muslims don't count. Right?

[rmxt]

You have no interest in pursuing a genuine argument. I am not "bypassing those obstacles". This isn't nitpicking, this is logic over xenophobia.

1. They are not westernized when they arrive, but they can and do become westernized over time. [1]

2. Those are Muslim European countries, not "your" type of countries. Your comparison is meaningless, and is different than the one you originally made.

3. They are not different than the majority. I am asking you to prove that they are a representative sample of that country's population. (Still waiting!)

[1] For example, http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01419870903318169

EDIT: You suggest that I am the one cherry picking, but you're the one failing to comprehend an important qualifier on the 36%, namely it is only 16 to 24 year olds, and you are ignoring the rest of the (positive) statistics in that paragraph:

"On religious issues a poll reported that 36% of 16–24 year olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared to 19% of 55+ year old Muslims"

"However around 83% of Muslims are proud to be a British citizen, compared to 79% of the general public, 77% of Muslims strongly identify with Britain while only 50% of the wider population do, 86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians, 82% of Muslims want to live in diverse and mixed neighbourhoods compared to 63% of non-Muslim Britons"

"A poll reported that 59% of Muslims would prefer to live under British law, compared to 28% who would prefer to live under sharia law."

Frankly, I'm not going to bitch too loudly if I think Muslims should cut themselves some slack regarding converts. What is the threat to you, so long as no action is taken on anyone, if one British Muslim wants to think a British ex-Muslim should be stoned for conversion? Regardless, by no means is the belief you are parading about a "majority" belief. You are shifting the goalposts.

[jbssm]

> I'd venture to say that people, in general, that are willing to move (east to west, or west to east) are probably more inclined to adapt to the place where they are going than the ones that stay in their country of origin.

Also, so, know you are telling us that these people choose to migrate West, they are not really forced to do so? It's quite an incoherent sentence from someone defending (as I do actually) that most of these people have no choice but to leave their country because of the war.

But well, we all know coherence and politics don't really go well together with most of the people.

[rmxt]

Is it that hard to fathom that there's multiple variables at play in deciding when one decides to leave their homeland for greener pastures? Cultural factors, economic factors, social factors, the presence of war/peace are all things that play into an individual's decision to pack up and move. Different people have difference tolerance for different things.

As a thought experiment: someone with a higher tolerance for different cultures and a lower tolerance for violence is more likely to move sooner than someone with an equivalent tolerance for violence and a lower tolerance for different cultures, no?

> But well, we all know coherence and politics don't really go well together with most of the people.

Mhmm, I can definitely see that. Make better arguments than "Muslims are scary!" and you wouldn't have to resort to underhandedness.

[jbssm]

So, migrants are not a good sample of the population of the country they originate from. They are special in some way and by taking a 3000 Km journey trough Africa they are already Westernised even before setting foot in Europe.

Makes perfect sense... I mean, makes perfect sense to try and deny reality in such an obvious way.

[rmxt]

Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe?

The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.

[jk4930]

Turkish Muslims (the majority of Muslims in Germany) were polled on the following:

1. Islam is the only true religion: 72% YES 2. There should be a Muslim majority in Germany: 46% YES 3. Want only Muslims as neighbours: 62% YES

> http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuer...

[rmxt]

Fair enough, they have strong religious beliefs. So do lots of people. Why does that mean Muslims shouldn't be allowed into a given country? Why should Islam be singled out?

Also, apparently from the same survey:

"Furthermore, the willingness of Turkish migrants and their descendents to integrate into German society remains high and is climbing. Whereas 70 percent said in 2010 that they want to "absolutely and without reservations integrate into German society," the new survey found that 78 percent of respondents agreed. Similarly, whereas 59 percent said two years ago that they wanted to belong to German society, 75 percent say so now. Fully 95 percent say that all children with Turkish backgrounds should go to day care facilities so as to learn German prior to entering school."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/survey-turks-in-...

Why does religiosity matter if the desire to integrate is there?

[jbssm]

Source is here for instance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sh...

36% of Muslims living in UK believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death. But I'm sure you will find some way to nitpick out of this and tell me that these Muslims don't count. Right?

Also, in case you intellectual honesty doesn't allow you to figure out, these are that Muslims that in their great majority are supposed to be already westernised since they actually lived for a long time (or were even born) in the West.

[rmxt]

Take off the hate goggles and maybe you'll see that your sarcasm is actually true:

"these are that Muslims that in their great majority are supposed to be already westernised" == "86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians"

86.4% sounds like a "great majority" (whatever that means), to me.

[d9h549f34w6]

How many destitute people do you house in your own home? Why only that number and not more? If zero, why is that? What percentage of your income are you donating to support refugees? Why is that percentage not higher?

[ashleyp]

Ooo, there's a hefty underlying assumption in your post.

I have previously taken people off the street, three times. I do not currently have anyone living in my home because I have moved back to my disabled Mums which is a 3 bedroom house already with 5 people living there.

Why am I living at my Mums?

I give 100% of my time to helping others and i'm in the process of starting a social enterprise to develop technology to help others in a variety of situations. We've already designed and nearly finish an app to help women in domestic violence situations, tools to help kids with dyslexia, tools for autism. Every penny will go back into creating more tools and technologies to help.

Then I can buy an Island. Yep, i'm not even kidding that's my ambition.

"What percentage of your income are you donating to support refugees? Why is that percentage not higher?" - I currently give no funds to refugees because I put all of my funds into creating other projects to help others in different domains. I feel that investing in these which will generate more income will give more income to help more people.

[caseysoftware]

> Why cares who's responsible? They're humans. Arn't we all responsible for all humans on the planet?

How many homeless people do you let crash at your place each night?

[ashleyp]

Caseysoftware - i've had exactly three people crash at my house who were homeless strangers. Only for a few nights each.

I have also got chatting to a homeless dude who turned out to be an artist. He carried on a pen drive pictures he'd created over the last few years but he had no computer access and no way to get them. I said i'd take a look and the next day went into a shop and printed every single picture, paid for it and gave it to him.

I have no problem giving to strangers and not getting anything in return. I get something back naturally, I feel happier that they are happier.

Hence i'm in the process of starting a social enterprise =).

[caseysoftware]

Sounds like a great start. When are you going fulltime with it?

"It" being letting homeless people crash at your house all the time.

[rmxt]

It's intellectually dishonest to presuppose that the only way to support destitute people is to personally let them into your home.

[caseysoftware]

It's intellectually dishonest to suggest that people let the destitute into their own homes, but not for people to suggest the same for your home?

It's easy to suggest how someone else's resources (time, money, and effort) should be handled but it's something else to do it yourself.

[rmxt]

Yes, it is intellectually dishonest. The submission/posted website does suggest inviting refugees into one's own home, but you are the one who suggested that we should compare "fear of refugees on a national level" (ashleyp's post "But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country?") to "fear of letting a stranger into one's home" (your post "How many homeless people do you let crash at your place each night?") That's not a sound comparison. Nowhere has anyone stated that you (the impersonal you) should take refugees in, while I don't.

I am not suggesting that any individual be mandated to keep refugees (or anyone that they don't want) in their home. I am suggesting that pooled resources (taxes, which aren't "someone else's resources") go towards maximizing the benefit for the most number of people, inclusive of immigrants.

[ashleyp]

I won't be for a long time. I've just moved back into my disabled Mum's house which has 3 small bedrooms and 5 people. Cramped conditions but I work as much as possible on a social enterprise.

In a few years time I dream i'll be able to provide much more housing than space on my couch. There are alternatives to just giving housing.