[rmxt]

Perhaps you're being downvoted because your source does not once refer to immigrants, refugees or migrants. You've presented no evidence which suggests that migrants (a particularly self-selecting group) are a uniform sampling of the population of the countries that they hail from. You've made quite an assumption there. If your polls showed the opinions of Muslims already in Western European countries, then maybe we could start to talk about the ramifications of culture clashes. As it stands now, you're looking for what you want to see: "Muslims are scary!".

I'd venture to say that people, in general, that are willing to move (east to west, or west to east) are probably more inclined to adapt to the place where they are going than the ones that stay in their country of origin.

[jbssm]

> Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe? The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.

No, it seems you have no interest in being coherent. How is a newly arrived refugee/migrant a Muslim from a Western country?

Also, the data VERY CLEARLY states than more than 2/3 of the Muslims living in the European countries in the sample believe that the Sharia should be applied to the Muslims living there (the ones that actually live there, so, the culturally integrated ones according to you).

Care to explain where is your cultural assimilation now?

[rmxt]

Ah, so no source. Great!

Let me simplify it for you:

1. Above, you are lamenting the fact that Western countries allow Muslims in. (I shed a single tear for your cause.)

2. You suggest that "we" (presumably Western Christians) should be afraid of Muslims because the majority believe that "non-believers" should be stoned, etc.

3. You present "evidence" that shows that the majority of Muslims that currently live in particular Middle Eastern countries subscribe to those beliefs.

4. My retort: where is the evidence that Muslims refugees from those same countries to Western countries, actually believe those things at the same rate?

If you give me a poll of Muslim refugees in the USA/Germany/Sweden etc. with results that are similar to the link you've already posted, then maybe you have half a leg to stand on. Until then, enjoy your miserliness.

EDIT: It's called a reply button. I've made no claims regarding the European countries in your example. Save for Russia, those are majority Muslim countries. Islam in Russia is a special case, with certain regions having dense pockets of Muslims. [1] Cultural assimilation would suggest that immigrants will tend towards whatever mainstream beliefs prevail there, in this case Islam. The same cannot be said for most Western European countries, where irreligiousness or Christian social mores prevail. Are you suggesting that Muslim countries kick their own Muslims out? Do you know anything about those countries?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Islam_in_Russia.png

[jbssm]

Yes, yes, if you nitpick enough you can bypass all obstacles, like:

1-The fact these are people just arriving Europe, they aren't westernised by any means.

2-The fact that the vast majority of Muslims living in other European countries shown in the study do believe in following the Sharia law.

3-The fact that you claim that these people are in some way different than the majority of the people in their countries, just because you want too.

Perfect, you managed to find that the 1% of the African people that suits your alternate reality are the only refugees/migrants that are arriving in Europe. Well done.

EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sh...

P.S. - 36% of Muslims living in UK believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death. But I'm sure you will find some way to nitpick out of this and tell me that these Muslims don't count. Right?

[rmxt]

You have no interest in pursuing a genuine argument. I am not "bypassing those obstacles". This isn't nitpicking, this is logic over xenophobia.

1. They are not westernized when they arrive, but they can and do become westernized over time. [1]

2. Those are Muslim European countries, not "your" type of countries. Your comparison is meaningless, and is different than the one you originally made.

3. They are not different than the majority. I am asking you to prove that they are a representative sample of that country's population. (Still waiting!)

[1] For example, http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01419870903318169

EDIT: You suggest that I am the one cherry picking, but you're the one failing to comprehend an important qualifier on the 36%, namely it is only 16 to 24 year olds, and you are ignoring the rest of the (positive) statistics in that paragraph:

"On religious issues a poll reported that 36% of 16–24 year olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared to 19% of 55+ year old Muslims"

"However around 83% of Muslims are proud to be a British citizen, compared to 79% of the general public, 77% of Muslims strongly identify with Britain while only 50% of the wider population do, 86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians, 82% of Muslims want to live in diverse and mixed neighbourhoods compared to 63% of non-Muslim Britons"

"A poll reported that 59% of Muslims would prefer to live under British law, compared to 28% who would prefer to live under sharia law."

Frankly, I'm not going to bitch too loudly if I think Muslims should cut themselves some slack regarding converts. What is the threat to you, so long as no action is taken on anyone, if one British Muslim wants to think a British ex-Muslim should be stoned for conversion? Regardless, by no means is the belief you are parading about a "majority" belief. You are shifting the goalposts.

[jbssm]

> I'd venture to say that people, in general, that are willing to move (east to west, or west to east) are probably more inclined to adapt to the place where they are going than the ones that stay in their country of origin.

Also, so, know you are telling us that these people choose to migrate West, they are not really forced to do so? It's quite an incoherent sentence from someone defending (as I do actually) that most of these people have no choice but to leave their country because of the war.

But well, we all know coherence and politics don't really go well together with most of the people.

[rmxt]

Is it that hard to fathom that there's multiple variables at play in deciding when one decides to leave their homeland for greener pastures? Cultural factors, economic factors, social factors, the presence of war/peace are all things that play into an individual's decision to pack up and move. Different people have difference tolerance for different things.

As a thought experiment: someone with a higher tolerance for different cultures and a lower tolerance for violence is more likely to move sooner than someone with an equivalent tolerance for violence and a lower tolerance for different cultures, no?

> But well, we all know coherence and politics don't really go well together with most of the people.

Mhmm, I can definitely see that. Make better arguments than "Muslims are scary!" and you wouldn't have to resort to underhandedness.

[jbssm]

So, migrants are not a good sample of the population of the country they originate from. They are special in some way and by taking a 3000 Km journey trough Africa they are already Westernised even before setting foot in Europe.

Makes perfect sense... I mean, makes perfect sense to try and deny reality in such an obvious way.

[rmxt]

Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe?

The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.

[jk4930]

Turkish Muslims (the majority of Muslims in Germany) were polled on the following:

1. Islam is the only true religion: 72% YES 2. There should be a Muslim majority in Germany: 46% YES 3. Want only Muslims as neighbours: 62% YES

> http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuer...

[rmxt]

Fair enough, they have strong religious beliefs. So do lots of people. Why does that mean Muslims shouldn't be allowed into a given country? Why should Islam be singled out?

Also, apparently from the same survey:

"Furthermore, the willingness of Turkish migrants and their descendents to integrate into German society remains high and is climbing. Whereas 70 percent said in 2010 that they want to "absolutely and without reservations integrate into German society," the new survey found that 78 percent of respondents agreed. Similarly, whereas 59 percent said two years ago that they wanted to belong to German society, 75 percent say so now. Fully 95 percent say that all children with Turkish backgrounds should go to day care facilities so as to learn German prior to entering school."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/survey-turks-in-...

Why does religiosity matter if the desire to integrate is there?

[jbssm]

Seriously, the complete hypocrisy of your comment is too big to actually be true.

So, we are a bunch of xenophobes because we are concerned about people that clearly have social norms that are against our most basic principles of freedom are entering our countries.

But when 62% of Muslims already living in Germany say they want to live only next to other Muslims then, you don't see a problem there and claim they are perfectly integrated.

Seriously, you took hypocrisy to an all new level with that comment.

If we say: We want to live only next to other people that share the basics of European culture = we are a bunch of racist pigs. If they say: We want to live only next to Muslims = nothing to see here, just perfectly integrated and westernised Muslims.

[rmxt]

I've never said anything about anyone being racist, so forget the playing the victim card a la "bunch of racist pigs."

Being afraid of outsiders is pretty much the definition of "xenophobia," so yes, you are seemingly a xenophobe. [1] And, self-describedly, an Islamophobe. ("So, you really shouldn't have to ask why are we afraid of letting them in in such big numbers")

I've never claimed perfect integration, I'm claiming that I don't think that letting Muslims into Western countries is going to cause the social fabric to crumble as you seem to think. I would hope that both sides could be a little more accommodating: Western countries allowing disadvantaged refugees safe harbor, and Muslim immigrant communities willing to adapt somewhat to Western standards. There is actual research done on integration in these communities, above and beyond this single poll that you've been hanging on to. [2] Despite what you insist on believing, immigrants do actually adapt to their environments.

Lastly, you seem to want to paint the issue as cut and dry: put special restrictions on entry for Muslims, and social conflict won't arise between people who have differing values. That doesn't solve any issues! What do you do about disaffected Muslim communities already in Western countries? What is the best way to ensure a harmonious society? I think the answer lies somewhere between your claims of "don't let them in" and "let them all in and Sharia law will come to the West." Instead of castigating existing Islamic communities and placing restrictions on them, why not give them a fair shake and see what happens? A "fair shake" meaning one that doesn't single them out for their religious beliefs. (Hey, isn't that one of those "social freedom values" you were talking about?)

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/xenophobia

[2] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9248.2012....

[ashleyp]

Man, way to put words into someones mouth.

[jbssm]

Source is here for instance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sh...

36% of Muslims living in UK believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death. But I'm sure you will find some way to nitpick out of this and tell me that these Muslims don't count. Right?

Also, in case you intellectual honesty doesn't allow you to figure out, these are that Muslims that in their great majority are supposed to be already westernised since they actually lived for a long time (or were even born) in the West.

[rmxt]

Take off the hate goggles and maybe you'll see that your sarcasm is actually true:

"these are that Muslims that in their great majority are supposed to be already westernised" == "86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians"

86.4% sounds like a "great majority" (whatever that means), to me.

[jbssm]

Oh yes, they are westernised into 36% of them (the young ones, the ones that mostly were already born here) thinking that whoever leaves the religion of Islam should be killed.

Geez, I seriously wonder what is your concept of NOT westernised? 50%, 70%, 100% of them believing in murder in the name of their religion or what? Please let us know if you actually have a number or if anything fits into your version of "westernised"

[ashleyp]

rmxt I don't think there's much point debating with this guy. He's not interested in learning and sharing his understanding. Only interested in proving he's right and I'm not even sure he knows what he's trying to prove right anymore. He's finding anything he can to backup his argument, not sharing sources that he used to formulate his opinions.