[krschultz]

I was flying from Dublin to Newark on Saturday on a United flight. At some point during our flight the entertainment system needed to be rebooted. When it came back up, the splash screen hit me with a huge amount of nostalgia. It was RedBoot with a kernel build date from 2004.

Obviously this is the entertainment system and not something more critical, but it's telling. There is a huge cadence mismatch between software cycles and capital good replacement cycles. Airplanes, factories, HVAC systems, even home appliances last for decades. Software on these systems needs to get upgraded, I can't even imagine the number of security patches that have gone into the Linux kernel in the last 11 years.

[theandrewbailey]

This is the Achilles heel of the entire Internet of Things and smart appliance trend, and I think this will bite everyone bad. After 50+% of these vendors go out of business in the next decade, their products won't get updated, and people will wonder why their "smart" TV can't watch movies from whatever replaced Netflix/new whizbang video service. They won't be as likely to buy any "smart" thing again.

[rcraft]

This is exactly why I prefer buying "dumb" tvs and simply adding chromecast/appletv/firetv, etc. Much better experience.

[rubiquity]

My wife and I still have our LCD TV from 2005. It's about 5 inches thick but it works great. The TV is even starting to look very cool/retro and we've been complimented on how it completes the look of our living space!

[xorcist]

I still have a CRT TV. Do I win, or is there someone around with a B&W set? :)

[rubiquity]

I think it's the balance between new and old. You know, if your TV is either too old or too new it looks like you're trying too hard.

[danudey]

I have a Mac 128k in my basement, does that count?

[epenn]

I only have a Mac 512KE. :( But it's featured prominently in one of my rooms if that gets me any bonus points.

[cmdrfred]

beware the complisult.

[socceroos]

Hahaha! My thoughts exactly. There's a fine line between a compliment, a jibe and an insult. All subjective, of course.

[rubiquity]

It will take more than that to get me down!

[ArtDev]

I opted for a Chromebox running Ubuntu+Kodi. Its quite easy to set up! http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=194362

[sharjeel]

I am running my home server on ChromeBox (Linux Mint running Samba attached to a Bravia TV). I don't think I can get something better.

[sliverstorm]

It doesn't really matter that much if it's dumb or smart. You can use a Chromecast with either, and refusing to buy one kind limits your choices.

[wutbrodo]

I think his point is based on the (very reasonable) assumption that an equivalent quality Smart TV is going to be more expensive, which isn't worth it in general since you're not using the features that cause the difference in cost.

There of course may be realities of the market to cause it to not work out this way, but it's a pretty sensible assumption.

[dragonwriter]

Otherwise-equivalent Smart TVs are usually less expensive than displays (whether TVs or monitors) without the "Smart" features. This is a matter probably largely of economies of scale -- because that's what manufacturers think the consumer market wants, that's what they make most of and flood consumer channels with, and dumb alternatives are a specialty product.

[wutbrodo]

Good to know, thanks. I haven't bought a TV for about five years and I've never bought (or even been interested in) a Smart TV, for roughly the same reasons described here.

EDIT: hullo's comment below would seem to contradict this; 32" TVs from Samsung seem like a fair data point to look at (albeit just one data pt), since it's a very mainstream manufacturer and a non-niche size.

"Picking a manufacturer (Samsung) and size (32") at random, I see the smart TV for $499 and non-smart options for 219, 269, 299. http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs/all-products Just for example."

[rsync]

My last three "TVs" have been commercial display panels. These are the NEC panels that you see in the airport (turned on their side) for departure/arrival boards.

They are more expensive than a best buy model. Not terribly so, however, otherwise the airport couldn't buy 200 of them.

They are incredible displays.

[sliverstorm]

All else being equal, would I skip the smart features? Sure. You don't get that choice though. At least, I never have. Aspects like display technology, color reproduction, contrast, latency, etc are much more important to me than smart vs. dumb, and those things are how I make my decision.

[caskance]

That assumption is not reasonable at all. Not only are "dumb" TVs no cheaper, hardly anyone even sells them anymore.

[hullo]

Picking a manufacturer (Samsung) and size (32") at random, I see the smart TV for $499 and non-smart options for 219, 269, 299. http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs/all-products

Just for example.

[wutbrodo]

I think you're confused about the meaning of the terms "reasonable" and "assumption". An assumption isn't unreasonable just because it turns out to be untrue. As I said, there may be realities of the market that invalidate the assumption (and apparently there are).

[molmalo]

Depends on the market. Where I live, Smart TVs are easily about 2X the price for a similar "dumb" TV.

[JustSomeNobody]

All well and good until the "smart" part fails and makes the "dumb" part unusable. It's only a matter of time until it happens. I would rather take my chances with a "dumb" TV and add the peripherals I want.

[comex]

Smart TVs tend to have more complex UIs than dumb ones, which are annoying if you don't intend to use the smart functionality, as well as confusing (in terms of duplicated functionality) to less technical users.

[TeMPOraL]

And also designed by people who have no business doing UIs in the first place, which makes them crappy. It's a similar situation as with printer "value-added" software from printer vendors.

[antsar]

You can use a Chromecast with either, but one of them can also spy on you without your consent.

[caskance]

If you don't trust the TV manufacturer to include spying devices in their product, there is no reason to believe the "dumb" TV you brought from them is any less capable.

[urda]

And how exactly is a dumb TV with no WiFi radio, ethernet port, or any other forms of outgoing communication going to phone home? Please enlighten me.

[tsuraan]

I don't trust the TV manufacturer to secure their initial release of their "smart" os, and I surely don't expect them to keep it patched. Anybody who breaks into your video-enabled tv can see everything you're doing...

[kstenerud]

Not if it isn't connected to your network.

[dragonwriter]

> Not if it isn't connected to your network.

Not if it isn't connected to a network. But its hardly as if devices with manufacturer-paid cellular connectivity built in and preconfigured don't exist, so there's no reason that it has to be your network.

To the extent that manufacturers are either monetizing networked services or deriving useful data from them, making them independent of end-user networking choices has a pretty clear benefit, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it become a common thing in Smart TVs.

[antsar]

Valid point. But then you're left with a bunch of crap in the UI that is unnecessary and annoying at best.

[rcthompson]

It's not too much of a stretch for smart TVs to start including cellular connectivity (and advertising it as "zero-setup").

[duaneb]

In my experience, "smart" tvs almost always offer a degradation of user experience.

[ytdht]

a smart TV can be more expensive and have unwanted features and bugs... an hidden webcam is an example and another is when they stop sending you software updates for your TV because it is "too old"

[jchrisa]

Projector!

[a3n]

Roughly OT: I have yet to have seen anything that makes me look forward to the IoT, and when I talk to the voices of vendors in my head I'm basically telling them "Stay out of my refrigerator, my furnace, my toilet and my smart doorlock that I'll never have."

I just don't feel that anything relevant to the IoT is missing from my life. At all.

[wlesieutre]

I can see "Check if I left the stove on and turn it off remotely" being a neat thing to have. But not neat enough to let a 10 year old appliance with no software updates and the capability to burn my house down be accessible to the internet.

[exelius]

Yeah, but chances are you won't use the functionality often enough to configure it in the first place.

That's the real problem with the Internet of Things: most of the things we own are not all that useful when we're not in close proximity to them. Thus, not only are users and manufacturers unlikely to update them in the future; users are just as unlikely to connect the thing in the first place.

Home automation through things like light switches, etc. has a use case, but those products have been available and Internet-connected for over a decade and we still haven't seen wide adoption. I recently priced it out -- it would cost me over $5000 to swap out the outlets and switches in my house for Insteon devices. And that's just the hardware; not the electrician required to connect it all or the time I would spend configuring everything. Home builders aren't going to spend that kind of money building this into anything but the most high-end homes -- the IoT hardware alone blows through the fixtures and appliances budget that most home builders allocate.

People want systems that "just work". IoT does not "just work", and none of the current or announced implementations address the big problems around configuration (namely, every house is different so every implementation is custom). And in some cases like a stove or a refrigerator, any amount of configuration is going to be too much.

[mturmon]

About home automation of light switches: I put in ~10 X-10 devices, plus the ~20 controllers to activate them, circa 2002. I did it myself (I'm an EE), so the installation cost was 0.

It worked OK for a while, but the setup was not robust and eventually some controllers would not work some devices at some times. The annoyance factor in going from 0 errors to a 1% error rate is HUGE.

Five years passed, and I have been slowly replacing all these X-10 devices with hard-wired switches or with Insteon. Of course, the original 1959 wiring paths (12 gauge Cu FTW) still work fine.

Now, when I see connected/automated homes in design mags, all that tech seems more like a long-term maintenance headache than a desirable feature. If I had an unlimited budget, I would not build those features in, I would just install conduit and run old-school copper wires through it.

My lessons: (1) The design life for a home is decades, the refresh rate for home automation devices is years; (2) Upgrading/tinkering is fun the first time -- but only the first time; (3) Your spouse hates it more than you do; (4) The existing device does one thing without fail, replacing it with a device that does more things but sometimes fails is not a net gain.

[wlesieutre]

Agreed on all counts. The only ones I can see taking off in any sense are easy to retrofit things like light bulbs and the occasional wireless plug controller like a WeMo if you have a particular load that needs one, not as a standard on every outlet.

But prices need to come down, light output needs to go up (wireless bulbs seem to top out around 60W equivalent), and switches need to not be a $60 optional accessory (looking at you, Hue Tap). Controlling lighting with your phone is neat, only being able to control lighting with your phone sucks.

Long term, I'm sure I'll end up with more IoT devices. But it'll be because they got shoved down our throats and I didn't want to pay more to avoid new "features," not because I wanted a wireless microwave.

[exelius]

Insteon seems to have the best ecosystem of IoT stuff. But you're right; the lack of compatibility across all these different "open" standards is frustrating as a user. You basically have to pick one platform and stick with it.

But I'm personally not convinced by IoT. Every implementation I've seen adds complexity without really improving functionality. I have a few Insteon switches in my house, but only in a few places where I need them (e.g. on the lights in front of my house so they can be turned on with a timer when I'm out of town).

I actually have a "connected refrigerator" made by Samsung. I tried for 5 minutes to get it set up before I gave up. I really couldn't think of what I would need to use a connected refrigerator for. IMO this is the usage model for the vast majority of IoT devices: if I, a major geek about this stuff, am not willing to spend more than 5 minutes setting it up, who actually cares enough to bother with any of it?

[wpietri]

My guess is that for each person some small thing will make sense, which is sufficient to drive the costs down and the technology forward.

For example, good sleep is really important to me. So I used the Philips Hue bulbs and a NUC to build a smart home lighting system that behaves much more like daylight. When I describe it to people, quite a number really want it. Not bad enough to get my code off GitHub and install it, but they'd pay something extra for it. And I now see pre-packaged commercial products getting proposed, so I'm sure they'll have options.

The interesting thing happens when that cycle drives the costs a fair bit lower. Look at phones, for example. Smartphones were a weird, exotic thing. Then they were a high-end consumer thing. Now they're the default. A couple years back I went into a store looking for a cheap phone and asked for one without a web browser. The clerk looked puzzled and said, "Well, they all come with web access." I'm sure I could have ordered a dumbphone somehow, but it would have been harder and cost more.

So my question is: how much extra will you pay for your house not to be connected? Because that's the real test for me about where the IoT thing will end up.

[exelius]

I don't think so. Cost is one side of the equation, but usability is another. And at the end of the day, I don't think there's enough consumer demand to push IoT where it could be. I think eventually we'll get there -- at some point in the future, it will just be cheaper to buy an Android SoC than a handful of cheap analog micro controllers -- but for the next 10+ years we're going to keep hearing about IoT as "the next big thing" because there's no consumer demand for it.

The situation with your daylight system is a perfect example. People think "Oh, that's cool" but won't actually get off their ass and spend a few hours setting it up and configuring it to their liking. Unless it comes out of the box, it's a non-starter.

IoT devices as they are today require a systems integrator to come in and tie everything together and configure them. So your lighting system is integrated with a presence system that is also integrated with your thermostat. Each of these has to be configured on a case-by-case basis, because no two homes are alike. But if your products require an integrator, suddenly the integrator is your customer, and you begin sacrificing end-user focus for things that make the integrator's job easier.

And then you realize that the largest consumer of IoT platforms isn't consumers themselves, it's installers like ADT. Their focus is on selling simple products that require minimal support, not feature-rich ones. Why? Because users simply aren't interested in paying any amount of money for advanced features. Until that changes, IoT is going to be a niche hobbyist market. Even if it's built in to every device you buy, if it's not worth anything to you, you're not going to configure it in the first place.

[wpietri]

I think we might agree entirely. I think mobile phones were a relatively fast cycle because people were pretty happy to replace their phones every few years. That's not true with, say, washing machines or furnaces. So it will definitely take a while.

But if you look at devices with cycles in between, I already see it happening. 10 years ago when I bought a stereo receiver, I bought something entirely dumb. Last year I replaced it and ended up with something that was internet connected. Not because I really cared, but because the equivalent model came with that. And in retrospect I'm glad; their phone/tablet app is a way better remote control than punching a bunch of mysterious, no-feedback buttons. The same thing happened with my DVD player; when the old one died I just bought whatever Consumer Reports recommended and it too is internet connected.

I think that you're right that the development of pluggable Android is what will push this forward. And Google clearly agrees; their project Brillo is surely one effort among many.

[exelius]

Right; but in the case of a stereo receiver (or any TV-connected devices), the IoT model makes sense: this is a device you interact with on a regular basis. There is already an ecosystem of devices that support things like Bluetooth, AirPlay, etc. so when your receiver has them, it's actually kind of useful.

I've always thought that the reason for keeping Android as open source was to enable this use case. Eventually, Android-capable SOCs will come down to a very low price point, and for these use cases they don't need to push much more than a few kb per second. But it retains the advantage of having a development ecosystem that is well understood and widely available (you can't throw a rock in China or India without hitting an Android developer).

[walterbell]

> I used the Philips Hue bulbs and a NUC to build a smart home lighting system that behaves much more like daylight

Neat. Did you try to coordinate room lighting color changes with computer screen colors controlled by fl.ux?

[wlesieutre]

Flux can actually do that directly! https://justgetflux.com/news/pages/bigupdate/

[wpietri]

I didn't coordinate it, but they are roughly in sync because they're doing similar things. Code here:

https://github.com/wpietri/sunrise

It's minimally sufficient for my needs, but I'd be glad to work with others to expand it.

[semi-extrinsic]

I would say only the DIY part of the IoT is something to look forward to. When all it takes is $20 and a few lines of Lua to set up a display, some sensors etc. that's connected either to the actual internet or just your private wifi, that's actually a cool thing. Basically any time you've thought "Hey, I could use an RPi and automate this.. Nah, they're too big and expensive."

[jkestner]

That will only matter if companies don't train customers to expect frequent upgrade cycles. It's worked for consumer electronics, but there will be strain in previously "came with the house" objects. You'll need to sidestep people's habits, in the way that the microwave did, perhaps.

And we're only worried about vendors going out of business because it's the early days and it's largely startups pushing the trend. With a Samsung or Apple, it's more that they'll quickly (by home equipment standards) stop supporting whatever doesn't stick to the wall.

There is a case to be made for self-contained objects that don't derive most of their value from an ecosystem, but work normally with no network. Work up from a toaster, not down from a computer.

[rcthompson]

Are you arguing that frequent upgrade cycles are a good thing?

[jkestner]

Definitely not, for the consumer. For the manufacturers, sure. Supporting a cheap piece of hardware for several years when consumers are going to demand it works with HomeKit, Google @Home, or whatever it's called now, and their descendants, and Microsoft's play, and the many competitors yet to come — that'll suck.

Traditional hardware makers are going to have to factor the support of this software component into their prices now.

[snowwrestler]

I bought an LG smart TV a while ago. It stopped receiving firmware updates after a couple years and is now way behind current models in terms of features--and, I can only imagine, security patches.

I will go out of my way to buy a dumb TV next time.

[cma]

Mine updated itself to add a big banner advertisement to the main screen. It originally had no ads.

[nodata]

> I will go out of my way to buy a dumb TV next time.

How? I don't see any dumb TVs for sale.

[morsch]

Isn't dumb TV just another word for monitor these days?

[dragonwriter]

> Isn't dumb TV just another word for monitor these days?

A dumb TV still has a TV tuner, so they aren't equivalent.

But unless you plan on plugging it directly into an antenna for OTA broadcasts, they are basically equivalent.

[sliverstorm]

They certainly seem to be similar! But, a number of differences do arise from intended use.

- TVs don't need anywhere near the same level of display quality. They are viewed from ten feet away and do not render small text, so they don't need as clear a picture. They also don't really have to go over 30fps, and latency is less of a concern. Basically, they have looser constraints in many ways, making them cheaper

- TVs have a plethora of inputs of many formats

- TVs have remote controls

[nodata]

Because you no longer need a tuner? Could be.

But I doubt you could buy a 60" glass front monitor for the price they sell TVs :)

[bloaf]

Heh, I own a Google TV (from Sony.) It's pretty amusing to me that a Google branded TV is currently running Android version 3.2

[grkvlt]

But, why do you care about the lack of updates if you would be happy with a 'dumb' TV? Just plug your desired source into the input HDMI socket of your 'smart' TV, obsolescent or not, it won't matter, and move on with your life.

[logfromblammo]

They don't even need to go bankrupt. I have an LG television that has been promising new widgets ever since I first got it, and no new widget has ever appeared.

The impetus there was that LG changed its net-connected TV platform in 2011, and instantly dropped all support for older devices. One would think that a final update could remove that "coming soon" box from their proprietary added-feature screen, but they haven't even bothered to do that.

So I can watch NetFlix and YouTube on that device, but not Amazon instant video, or Crackle, or Crunchyroll, or Vimeo, or any of the dozens of selections available to better supported platforms. Having learned my lesson, and aware of the increasingly stalkerish behavior of "smart" televisions, my next TV purchase was very specifically a dumb screen. If I want an internet-connected service now, I use the Wii, or XBox, or the extended desktop from the nearest computer.

I will likely refuse to buy any network-enhanced appliance in the future, unless I am able to root/jailbreak it and install software without the manufacturer's stamp of approval. I probably wouldn't do much beyond installing ChillBox, or FridgeBSD, or CryogenMod, or whatever, but it feels like the possibility might keep them a little more honest. Because you know that refrigerator hackers would be capturing and picking apart every packet that thing sends out, quickly discovering that every time someone closes the door, it sends a tattle out to fridge-use.org about how long you stood there with the fridge door open, along with before-and-after photos of your food.

Though it would also be embarrassing if they marketed value models of a product line by disabling features in software/firmware, and some NetBSD-loving punks could come along and write a simple script that turns the doohickey that retails at $200 into the one that sells for $800.

So it's already too late for me. "Smart" appliances are just another low-capability computer that I will have to support as the in-home IT guy. And I will have to presume that they come pre-loaded with all manner of crapware and spyware. I would forever need to be checking on chipsets and revision numbers and compatibility lists. No thanks. It's hard enough managing the congestion on the home WiFi already.

[stcredzero]

Probably the only reason why your ca. 2005 linux media pc won't work in your current living room is that its hardware can't support your new 4K flatscreen. Open software could go some way towards addressing the update problem, but it would need to have a much more robust code signing infrastructure behind it, to avoid becoming an even worse morass of security problems than the morass we have today. (Generally, not in open software.)

[danudey]

Heck, just look at the huge number of Android phones that you can buy at retail with an out-of-date version of Android with known security holes which will never be patched or updated. And those are relatively complex devices which are trivial for users to update if given the option, based on the adoption rates for e.g. iOS updates.

A company doesn't have to be out of business to not do security updates; they can not do security updates starting day one. There was an article a while ago about tons of home router vendors with insecure software from a third party, where the third party had resolved security issues years ago but the vendors had never bothered to update, leaving hundreds of thousands of devices vulnerable over the last few years.

[wazoox]

Actually one month ago in Amsterdam I've used a Philips smart TV that complained about "youtube is not supported anymore yadda yadda". Programmed obsolescence at its best (this TV probably wasn't more than 3 or 4 years old).

[saosebastiao]

I know it is just an OS kernel and security is far more comprehensive than having a secure kernel, but this is an amazing start:

https://sel4.systems/

I'm surprised IoT conversations are still happening with Linux as a contender for the OS, let alone Windows.

[pubnub]

Use https://resin.io/ yo

[stcredzero]

There is a huge cadence mismatch between software cycles and capital good replacement cycles.

How well would you say that Tesla is coping with this as a company? For that matter, what about Apple?

I can't even imagine the number of security patches that have gone into the Linux kernel in the last 11 years.

Let's take a step back and think about this statement. Isn't this insane? We know enough to be able to build something much better than this. The reason that we don't, is that we've just kept on pragmatically building on what we had before. We're like a corporation that keeps pouring money into its "stovepipe" system because we keep on making short-term decisions. (Somehow "stovepipe" has come to mean "vertically isolated," but I seem to remember that it also used to refer to the tendency of iron stovepipes to corrode and need constant patching.)

[bitwize]

How well would you say that Tesla is coping with this as a company? For that matter, what about Apple?

Apple just kind of assumes that you have the latest shiny, because why wouldn't you? This induces a phenomenon I call the Apple Turnover: when a software update aimed at new Apple things comes out and makes your old Apple thing not run so good anymore. Sluggish iPhones are the hallmark example today, but I was bitten badly by this in the mid-2000s when Panther would no longer compile C++ files. You see, one of Apple's OS updates for Panther came with Tiger's libstdc++, which used the new Itanium ABI. This was so Xcode for Tiger could compile programs to run on Panther, but without heroic efforts to set up compiler flags in every package you built to link against the old static libstdc++, compiling on Panther would link against the new libstdc++ by default and fail horribly, rendering C++ code uncompilable. (Deleting or renaming the new libstdc++ was not an option; it was a heavily depended on system component and I think even the header files were changed for the new library.) And a lot of stuff depended on C++, including C-API stuff like SDL. And Apple did fuck all to fix it.

So if you buy a shiny Apple toy, your choices are to commit to upgrading early in the new product cycle or risk an Apple Turnover rendering your purchase, if not useless, then with degraded functionality even relative to the same device when you bought it.

And the pisser is during the 80s and 90s, Apple gear was legendary for running well, and being supported, many years if not more than a decade after its purchase date.

[snowwrestler]

Eh, I think Apple is doing ok with Macs and iPhones at least.

I'd guess the typical hardware replacement cycle for a computer is 3-5 years. My 2009 MacBook Pro is on Mountain Lion. It runs just fine, and the OS continues to receive security updates. Both 10.9 and 10.10 also officially support my machine, I just haven't bothered to upgrade. Rumor is that support for older machines is one of the areas of focus for 10.11. We'll see in a week or two.

The typical hardware replacement cycle for a smart phone is probably 2-3 years because of contract upgrades. My iPhone 5 is running 8.2 and runs just fine. 8.3 supports it as well, but I need to clear some photos off to make space to run the installer.

Looking at the entire Apple installed bases for computers and phones, Apple users seem to do a very good job of keeping up with supported OS versions.

I don't know as much about the iPad. At work I have an iPad 2 that is running iOS 8 and seems to work fine.

[bigiain]

For devices that _can_ have the OS upgraded - stats seem to show a remarkably high level of upgrading by users, at least for major version numbers:

http://david-smith.org/iosversionstats/

If you scroll down to "Device Breakdown (sorted by Usage)", you see a bunch of devices with 90+% stuck on the "last supported OS version" - 97% of iPad1G on iOS5, 97% of iPhone 3GS and iPod Tough 4G on iOS6, 91% of iPhone 4 on iOS7. Even including thise devices, they're showing 75% on devices on iOS8 and 20% on iOS7.

I'm in the "left behind" category - with both my iPad1 and Mac Mini single core being "stick" at iOS5 and OS X 10.6 respectively. Im somewhat disappointed at the lack of patches for the known security holes in iOS5 - especially since those numbers still show over 3% of the iPads in use are not upgradable past iOS5...

[alogray]

When updates are free, what are the realistic alternatives? Android devices, for example, just reach end of life much more quickly. Given the option to update at the expense of performance or no option at all, it at least seems the better of the two choices.

[nightski]

Maybe we need to start being more realistic about what things "cost" in performance and start evaluating the cost/benefit ratio. It's OK to say no to a feature if it is going to degrade the user experience. Just because we have a phone with a quad core 2 Ghz processor does not mean we need to design the OS to require it.

[bitwize]

I didn't say the Android situation was good, although with CM I am generally able to squeeze a few months to years of additional life out of an Android device.

[marincounty]

I think this is a strategy by Apple, and will eventually backfire. But then again what do I know about consumer preferences, I am typing this on a Toshiba Satellite PS25-607--that is literally held together with tape, and opened so many times I can visualize the screw holes?

[marincounty]

I honestly think most companies don't care about longevity anymore? I look at all the appliances in my home, and just plan on throwing them out when they break down. I remember years ago, a car manufacturer did a study on what consumers care about when buying a vechicle. It wasn't engine size, or the stuff they were advertising; it was cup holders. I don't think we have evolved that much? (vechicles were forced to last longer because it was such a huge expenditure, and even the most thoughtless buyer was forced to look for longevity.) I literally think durable good manufacturers(with the exception of most automobile companies) design products to fail within three years? I can hear the CEO now, "Get the name in their head, and we have them for life--my life as a CEO?". Worst case senerio, the product becomes a joke like Fiat did in the 70's; the CEO is long gone, but on his rein, the books looked good?

The appliances in my house were bought because of all the bells and whistles. I didn't buy them, but am forced to work on them when a sensor fails. They have gotten so complicated, parts so expensive, service manuals hard to get; I just throw them away when they fail. I don't like it.

I think, if consumers start demanding it, we will go back to buying a based on longevity, and not on the newest feature? Every time my dryer's alarm goes off, I am reminded it's a durable good. It's almost reminding me to save up?

[krschultz]

100% agree. What I'm really getting at it is that you need to have an upgrade strategy. Obviously these planes didn't. The military actually has a very good strategy these days simply because they were burned badly by this problem in the 80s and 90s already. I imagine the commercial airlines are currently learning this lesson.

[pedrocr]

Exactly because of this I think Fred Wilson is spot on in saying expensive things will stay dumb and the smarts will be in the cheaper replaceable gadgets[1]. Cars have already done that with audio (bluetooth works reasonably well). Hopefully one of the video casting solutions will solve video as well so we can stop mounting smartphones on the dash and just cast the images into the car's screen.

[1] http://avc.com/2011/12/cheap-willl-be-smart-expensive-will-b...

[cletus]

This reminds me of the rumours that Apple would release a TV. Frankly I never believed it and (IMHO) you have to be pretty ignorant of Apple to think the rumours had any credence whatsoever.

The upgrade cycles are simply too long for TVs.

But more importantly, Apple's whole model is to treat things like this as just "dumb complements". Your mobile device is, from the carrier's perspective, is increasingly becoming an a dumb Internet pipe (first with the App Store, later with the likes of iMessages and how LTE works, etc).

The TV for Apple is simply a dumb display to stick an Apple TV into. A sub-$100 device you can replace every other year if need be. A $3000 TV is replaced a whole lot less often.

Why would Apple want to be in the business of (eventually) supporting 5+ year old TVs for such a low-margin business? Or what makes you think users would pay for the Apple brand and/or upgrade more often to make it worthwhile?

So as far as IoT goes, I have trouble seeing a future where someone says "I need to buy new lightbulbs because mine don't get firmware updates anymore" or "I need to buy a new fridge because it can't talk to my new phone".

[ghaff]

Smart TVs doubtless sound like a great idea if you're a TV manufacturer who desperately wants to shorten upgrade cycles and sell higher-margin "value add" in a world where so many people already have HD TVs that are pretty much as big as they have room for. For everyone else? Not so much.

Not only does it make sense to put the smarts and connectivity in devices that are either cheap, that people already have anyway, and can be easily upgraded but the user interface in a phone/tablet/etc. tends to be far better than a typical remote.

In general, I tend to prefer the Chromecast model of just casting video from a general purpose device, but the Kindle stick and Apple TV are OK as well. By contrast, I rarely used the Smart TV features on my Panasonics because they were just so painful to use.

[dba7dba]

Considering the ridiculous amount of testing required (rightly so) for any change on the jetliners, they probably cannot keep up with the patches.

One Windows running company I worked for long time ago simply didn't apply the patches. They said it broke things...

[TheCapn]

Depends on the risk it poses and the attack vectors available. If you can assume jetliners use a custom hardware with no web tie ins and no physical access (USB/otherise) then security patches covering attacks that require those vectors are kind of moot aren't they? A whole lot of testing and verification would go into applying a patch that is rendered useless by other security precautions.

[stcredzero]

I've had demos ruined by iOS 8.x patches! (By changes to pretty well established code, like NSTimer and UIImageView updating.) I could easily believe that Windows patches would break things.

[nostromo]

> Obviously this is the entertainment system and not something more critical

According to recent reports, the entertainment system is not fully isolated from the plane's navigation systems. However, Boeing has denied this.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/17/us/fbi-hacker-flight-computer-...

[Cacti]

That's because the researcher didn't do that on an actual plane. In fact it wasn't even a simulator, it was a virtualized simulator where he put the systems all on the same bus. On top of that the guy was only able to listen in on traffic.

The entire story is bogus.

The systems are isolated just fine.

[EvanAnderson]

This particular device was mentioned in a discussion here awhile back: http://www.teledynecontrols.com/productsolution/ned/overview...

One of the collateral PDFs for the device shows it connected to "IFE (In-Flight Entertainment)" (http://www.teledyne-controls.com/pdf/NED_Brochure.pdf).

Just the existence of such a device gives me reasonable cause to believe that there's more interconnection than "isolated just fine". While I have a lot of respect for the engineering processes that go into aviation systems, I've also had enough practical experience in IT security to know that blind faith in things being done right is foolish.

[jfaat]

Can you provide a source?

[edit] I've seen the claim made more than once in this thread without a source. I understand that the article was probably very wrong. I'm just interested to know if a reputable publication has confirmed this or if it's just conjecture.

[burger_moon]

I know this doesn't mean diddly squat, but my sister worked for a manufacturer of airline wiring harnesses up until very recently, and when I asked about it, she mentioned that they were not interconnected or exposed to one another. I don't believe they did the really huge jets, but regional and private sized jet harnesses instead, so it could be different in that aspect also.

[nradov]

Can you provide a reputable source to prove that President Obama is not a disguised lizard alien? ☺ I mean the original article was so obviously nonsense on the face of it that no refutation should be necessary.

[petercooper]

The IFE system on a 747 I was on a couple of years ago was running Windows 98, complete with graphical boot screen :-) (Edit: Removed airline, I like them too much.)

[joezydeco]

Okay well then you must be lying because that's just not possible (the airline thing, not the Win98)

[mikeash]

I think he may be trying to tell us that they're holding him hostage and we should call the police.

[keeperofdakeys]

19 January 2038 will be a very interesting day, since that's when signed 32 bit unix time will overflow. I don't want to think about how much software would rely on that, especially critical embedded hardware.

[srtjstjsj]

An embedded system with a 30-year lifespan and no maintenance plan?