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by throwawayaway 4111 days ago
the title is provocative, but the content is better.

it's funny how grown women are referred to as girls, yet it's less common that grown men are referred to as boys - in my experience.

8 comments

Not boys, not men either though, but guys. Guys and girls tends to be the informal nomenclature for men and women. Why not guys and gals? Gal sounds so antiquated yet guy does not.
I don't think of guys as gender specific any more, but I suppose it is now that you mention it.
Grown men are not referred to as boys except ironically: "old boys", "boys' club", "boys and their toys", "the boys in blue", "bring our boys home".

In other ways, to be a boy is to be like a girl, as in "the hardships in this remote camp separate the men from the boys" (i.e. the hardy and able from the weak and effeminate).

When America had slavery, and apartheid, black men used to be referred to as "boy".
I prefer to describe myself as a girl. It's the female version of "guy".

"Woman" is stuffy and formal, and it makes me feel old. When I hear the word "woman", I think either Hillary Clinton or somebody's grandma, neither of which I have any desire to be.

I only use the word "woman" in formal contexts.

That's fair enough, though people retain the right to describe themselves in a particular way whilst simultaneously being entitled to forbid others to do the same.

Lady and Ladies is another set of words that could be used.

It's interesting that "Woman" is seen as stuffy and formal, whereas "man" is often used like "be a man" or "man up".

You usually have to put an adjective on "man" to give it a negative connotation, in my experience.

Before my transition (I'm MtF), I never particularly liked "man" either. I called myself a guy and described my male friends as guys.

I still think of guys as "guys" and not "men".

user mrits below also made associations with "woman" and formality. i have never heard any such associations or objections for man, and can't think of a situation where it has negative connotations.
You see it in self reference as well. I hear women talk about their girlfriends all the time, but I never hear men mention their boyfriends. It is often the guys.
That's because the average men has a phobia of being labeled an homosexual.
Women often refer to each other as girls. Men don't usually to each other as boys.
In Dutch, "jongens" (boys) is very common, even for mixed age and gender. However, jongens taken literally means "young ones", so it's actually very general. Use of "mannen" (men) among a group of adult males is usually actually more ironic than the more general "jongens".
Native Dutch speaker here, and i beg to differ: i would be very surprised if someone said "Daar staat een groepje jongens" (there's a group of jongens) and meant a group of girls. "Jongens" is definitely masculine.
Please read carefully, as I stated "mixed group". How about "jongens, kom", to a group of boys and girls? It's common.
I probably worry about this a bit too much, but broadly speaking i try very hard to de-gender my language where possible. E.g., i avoid saying "hey guys" and using 3rd person pronouns other than "they" when referring to undetermined people (such as "the user" and "they" in a technical manual). Therefore, no, i would not find it natural to say "jongens" to a mixed group of people. I used to have a boss in a dev team who always started his emails "Heren, ..." (== gentlemen) which irritated me no end. Apart from the fact that it sounds like a toilet designation (another pet peeve: why, in 2015, do we still have binary gendered public toilets?!) i found it incredibly exclusive language.

But indeed, perhaps this is outlier behaviour and others pay less attention. I suppose it's a tic i have because i'm in such a masculine-dominated field -- i try not to make it worse by talking as if i expect everyone to have XY chromosomes.

Disclaimer: i have a penis.

Like, in "going out with the boys" or "my boys have my back" or "boys will be boys"?
all those phrases are used by the immature referring to the immature.

those _are_ boys.

It's not uncommon in sports. That's the kind of thing I'd expect to hear in the locker room or on the ice when playing hockey. I don't feel like maturity plays into it there. It's almost a term of endearment.
I've literally never said any of those and would feel uncomfortable doing so.
But you are aware of these sayings correct? This was not the first time you've heard them, right?
Yes, I am aware. But then again I phrased my original statement to show that there was a small frequency of use of these terms. Where females (in my area) have a very high frequency of referring to each other as girls. Almost like "woman" is a formal term.
That's anecdotal at best. These are colloquialisms, they've been around well before you and I were born.
Yes.

I'll gladly refer to myself as a girl, but I only ever use "woman" in formal contexts.

interestingly this might be because girls like to retain some semblance of youth.

anecdotally my girlfriend (Russian if that makes any difference) absolutely hates when I refer to her as a young woman, or use the word "woman" at all. She much prefers to be referred to as a girl.

I have no issues with being called a man.. not saying that this pattern is everywhere but it's very apparent with her and her family.

"girls like to retain some semblance of youth"

No critical thought here is necessary, I suppose? It just... so happens that women "like" to look youthful? Maybe it's biological? Just the natural order of things? I am reminded of the ads from the National Geographic I own from 1940.

Yet lots of folks say "Mr. Smith? That sounds like my Dad! Call me John!" Which is much the same thing?
but "Mister" is not "Man" even my girlfriend doesn't mind being called "Miss" or "Ms", she might take exception to "Misses".. but I don't think anybody assumes at her age anyway.
You say this as if women couldn't just be going with the dominant language trend, which men put in place.
We should note that black men were referred to as "boy" quite a lot until a few decades ago.
Still going on.
I'm sure; hopefully my meaning got through that it only stopped being so widespread and normal a couple of decades ago.
I've seen this more often, i think its because girls can be acting like adults/grown ups. And boys… well that sounds (and generally is correct) like they are immature, not grown up.

Just my penny.