[emil10001]

Please have a read and then help me out by giving me some advice, because I’m completely sick of thinking about this:

* Who owns the device?

* Is the offer reasonable?

* Should I be upset about this?

* Should I just send it back and ask for a refund?

* What should I do???

[rckclmbr]

Space Monkey employee here, although I wasn't the one that created the subscription rules(I'm a software dev).

* For people who bought the Kickstarter, Space Monkey technically owns the device. We realized this isn't what most people wanted or expected, so if you buy on the site today, YOU own the device.

* In my opinion, yes.

* From a statistical standpoint, most people understood they were leasing the device and were happy we offered an upgrade. The ones who thought they owned the device are upset. We're trying hard to do everything we can to make our customers happy (while still staying in business)

* We want our customers to be happy, if that means refunding you.

* I can't answer that for certain, but I would say do whatever makes you happy.

[gregd]

It would have made more sense for KS backers at the $99 level and up, simply own the device now. As it stands, I can visit the site and pay $199 for said device (ownership) and it comes with the 1 year of service. Quite honestly this whole debacle has left me with a sour taste in my mouth and I highly doubt I'll be renewing when my year is up, especially given that I have to pay $149/year I believe..

[rckclmbr]

$99 KS is a great deal. Device ownership costs more upfront, but cheaper long term. There's really three options for you:

1. $99 + $120/year (not $149). First year is free.

2. $99 + $79 (upgrade) + $49/year. First year is free. We included 6 months additional service with this offer.

3. Return $99 device, pay $200 up front + $49/year. First year is free. This is basically #2, but more expensive, and no 6 months free.

[kubiiii]

There is a huge gap between the yearly fees of option 1 & 2. I might miss something but if the business model was based on ~ $10/month/user how come it is still viable with ~ $ 4?

[zeeboo]

When you lease the device if the hardware fails then Space Monkey replaces it. If you own the device and it fails outside of the 1yr warranty, then you have to replace it. The difference is about recouping hardware costs over the lifetime of the device.

[_mikz]

This should be written in the email they sent out! Thanks for clarification.

[zeeboo]

You'll either be paying $10/month or $49/year. Those are the only two subscription models the company has ever offered for a 1TB device.

[kubiiii]

I was wondering why people wanted to own a device that would be useless without the rest of the solution.

[the_paul]

We (Space Monkey) intend to make the device usable on its own, without the Space Monkey service, for people who purchase the device and don't want to continue the service. It's unclear as yet how close we'll be able to get it to a turnkey NAS solution, but at least it'll have Linux installed and you'll be able to SSH to it, use the drive, install whatever software you need, etc.

[kubiiii]

Great answer. It drives me (midly) mad to see overspecialized gear being produced such as asics miners and such. Promoting reuse is a good approach.

[jrs99]

Whenever I don't need something, I actually do pack the item back up and drive down to the UPS store and ship the product back to the company. It is a waste of resources and rare metals and stuff like that. Everything should be recycled.

If I leased some security technology, I wouldn't mind getting a used one if it were cleaned and worked well.

[DomBlack]

I remember when this first appeared on Kickstarter and I almost backed it. However I didn't because the the device is not yours; it's a subscription model where the hardware is part of that subscription and you had to pay to ship it back to them.

If you read the FAQ on their kickstarter page it states;

"What if I cancel my subscription? We'll give you a pro-rated refund on your subscription once the device is sent back."

[kordless]

There's nothing on the Kickstarter page that appears to imply a return policy. I'd say if someone sends you some hardware in this early stage of a company, then it's a reasonable assumption you would get to keep it. Whether keeping it is the right thing to do or not is another matter entirely. Startups.

Ideally, you shouldn't change the rules after engaging with someone who pays you money. If the company is making a bunch of rationalizations about it with you, you may want to point out to them how frustrated you are with the process and hope they hear you. I really can't tell if that is the case here or not as you haven't posted the correspondence!

[emil10001]

I didn't post the correspondence because it's extremely long. I've been back and forth with them over 13 very long emails. My prodding them for some evidence that what they're saying lines up with reality, and them rationalizing it without providing any evidence. I really wanted to work this out with their customer service, but instead, they dug in their heels and made the situation worse.

I waited a while after my last round of questions before writing this up. It was pretty clear that they had no intention of responding, or at least not within their own deadline.

[alenlpeacock]

Evidence we've already provided you in our numerous correspondences:

- Kickstarter project called itself "Complete Cloud storage subscription service"

- Kickstarter project added a $349 level after a few days that included "device ownership". Update #1 on KS highlighted this new reward level. Discussion in forums about ownership option and how it differed from the pure subscription model where you don't own the device.

- Kickstarter FAQ for our project says, in response to "what if I cancel my subscription?", "We'll give you a pro-rated refund on your subscription once the device is sent back."

- Numerous posts in the comment areas about device ownership vs. pure subscription.

- While there are a small handful of others who, like you, didn't understand the subscription model, these are in a tiny minority of all backers. All of them either upgraded after talking with us about it, stuck with their current plan, or were offered a complete refund. None launched public attacks calling us scammers.

Lastly John, our last response to you via our customer support system was yesterday at 12:59, but you just said, "I waited a while after my last round of questions before writing this up. It was pretty clear that they had no intention of responding, or at least not within their own deadline."

Does it seem fair to you to keep asking the same questions over and over again of our support staff, and then launching a public attack like this on a holiday because we didn't get back to you for the 14th time within 24 hours?

[emil10001]

Right, none of those things are explicitly stating that the hardware was a lease in the flow of someone backing the Kickstarter.

As far as my questions to your staff, there was a consistent back and forth until that point. I'm completely sick of dealing with this issue, and it was pretty clear that I was not getting anywhere. I also didn't want to be dealing with this over the holiday, but I didn't set the upgraded deadline as the end of December! It is pretty frustrating and stressful going back and forth and getting absolutely nowhere. I was hoping to get some perspective by posting it. I think that I've gained that perspective, and have decided to ask for a refund. I didn't want it to come to this, as I had previously been very excited about your company and product.

I feel that the "public attack" is more pointing out to people the sleazy thing that you did in inserting a new claim of ownership into an upgrade offer. I felt like this was something that your company was completely unwilling to acknowledge and that it needed to be pointed out.

[alenlpeacock]

So it sounds like you are mostly upset with our support staff? Could you help me understand what you believe would have helped to resolve this for you? What we did wrong?

Going back through the exchange, it looks like our staff offered you a complete refund very early on.

Maybe send me an email outlining an example of how you think the exchange should have gone? alen@ I'm sincere -- I'd like to improve the experience if you have insights to share.

[emil10001]

You're correct I was very disappointed about this experience, and it was mainly with the support. I will send you an email.

I'd also like to stop real quick and let you know that I do think that you have a great service with tons of potential. The technology is really cool, and I don't even know of anyone at this point who would come in as a close second. I've also been following your company since you won some startup competition a couple years ago, and was anxiously awaiting the service. I backed the project very quickly after getting the email from you guys that it was available.

[ljf]

Then return get device for a refund, they are offering you that, which in my opinion is pretty awesome. You thought you were getting one service, you were wrong (as it wasn't made clear to you), and now they are saying you can have a full refund. Life's to short to stress out over things like this, especially when there is a simple solution being offered.

[_mikz]

I backed the project and thought I own the device because of: "device included" in the reward levels on KS. Also why the hell I should check forums, comments & discussions when I knew that the device is mine?

[wahnfrieden]

This sounds a little like those services that say you're signing up for something free, but on another page outside of the signup flow that users easily miss, it says they'll be charged $X immediately. Those services are deemed a scam, so I would recommend against claiming any points about the necessary information that's outside of the backing UI flow.

[alenlpeacock]

The Kickstarter FAQ mentioned the return policy, and explicitly said that pro-rated refunds would occur once the device was returned.

[kordless]

I went back and looked, and the FAQ mentions that if you cancel your account, and return the device, you'll give a pro-rated amount. You have to click the link about canceling your account to see it:

> We'll give you a pro-rated refund on your subscription once the device is sent back.

That statement could be taken to imply a prepaid amount for a service could be refunded if the customer was willing to part with something of value - the drive. What it doesn't imply is that the device is leased. If anything, it seems like a simple incentive to get a canceling customer to return the drive - if they don't, you don't give them their money back.

I think you are continuing to make rationalizations about this whole thing. The indication is the slew of blaming statements in your response above to emil. See "launching a public attack like this on a holiday" for reference of said blaming statement. I think emil deserves to be heard here.

Simply acknowledging that the device was intended to be leased and clarifying that on the KickStarter page should do the trick.

[ErrantX]

Forgetting legalese and merely applying common sense: it was abundantly clear from the KS [1] that the device was leased or otherwise returnable.

That was the selling point!! Dirt cheap physical storage + cloud backup, with the trade off that you didn't own the device.

I hate to criticise, but your post seems quite entitled. It's fine if you misunderstood the produce, and perhaps SM should have shown goodwill in letting you have the device after all (rather than this ruckus).

The example that I gave was that if I were to walk into Verizon and get one of their free phones that accompanies the service

That's not true though is it. Your contract leases the phone to you - if you tried to cancel that service you would still be charge some sum X, where X is basically what is left to pay on the phone. For the period of that service your contract fee is extra to pay for the phone (when your service period ends, if you want to keep the phone you'd be crazy not to switch to a cheaper service without a free phone!! When my contract runs down I can switch to one half the price without a phone upgrade).

What SM appear to be saying is that they leased the device, but crucially without quantifying the cost of the device. That they are now able to do that might mean it is no longer cheap enough for you or others, that's their risk. But I think you've overreacted to the situation.

1. which I thought about backing then decided it wasn't something I would use as my backup needs are an order of magnitude larger)