[avalaunch]

The other commenters are being too nice in their replies.

You're full of shit. JustFab is a shoe of the month club masquerading as a normal online shoe store. The VIP Membership Program is the essence of JustFab's business model and yet it's missing entirely from the home page of their site. It looks like any other shoe store. And yet you think it's clear that the user is being signed up for a shoe of the month membership when they originally clicked through to buy a single pair of shoes.

The entire checkout process is engineered to get people to sign up for the "VIP Membership Program" without realizing what it is. If they wanted to be up front about it, they'd explain it on the home page. They'd include it in the list of items that you're purchasing. They'd include the relevant terms (not just a link to them) on the page where you enter your credit card information. They'd put the terms higher on the page so that you're more likely to read them. They'd put the "Checkout as a regular member" link next to the "normal" checkout button and they'd make it just as big. And they'd make it a button. They don't do any of these things.

When a user goes to checkout of any online store, they're not going to read everything on every page. It's a process they're very familiar with so they're going to skim and click through quickly. I know this, you know this, and JustFab knows this. That's why the program details are listed on the first page of the checkout process and not the last. That's why they're listed on a page where the user has but one action to take. Click the big pink button and get on with the checkout process.

JustFab is not an awesome company as you claim. It is a scam and you are a horrible investor for investing in them.

[testing12341234]

Absolutely agree with this comment. Here's the impression that I see at a "first glance" that page:

1.) The item to purchase, along with the price of the item. 2.) A bright magenta "Continue Checkout" button. 3.) An ad for an upsell on the right hand side which I'm generally not interested in. (on the right side, light grey text, etc)

Only after carefully scanning the page do I notice the following:

3.) This isn't an ad, it's actually something important for me to read. 4.) There is a tiny magenta link on the right hand side with explanation text that says to click it if I don't want to save 50%. 5.) Way down at the bottom of the page is text.

So I went ahead and did try it out myself. I borrowed a friend's laptop (that doesn't have a developer-level screen resolution). The screen resolution was 1333 x 768 and FF is maximized there. Here is what it looked like http://imgur.com/9rHhhLV

What's missing from that page, is all of the important information about the VIP program. What is present is the price of the item, the quantity and a magenta "Continue Checkout" button.

I'm definitely calling "Dark Pattern" on this one. Hiding important text off the screen, coloring the important text a light grey, even when the text is visible it is far down the right side in a small font.

[ollysb]

Yeah, I'm incredulous that anyone could argue that VIP membership is obvious. There's a box that gives you the breakdown of the charges, Subtotal, Shipping etc. that doesn't include the VIP membership... In fact the only indication on the entire page that you're joining the VIP scheme is the magenta link you mentioned. It's smuggled through at the bottom of an ad box(where everyone applies a degree of visual filtering automatically) and the copy isn't exactly obvious. "No thanks, I don't want to save up to 50%" is a long way from "No thanks, I don't want to be a VIP".

[abersek]

Even worse, should you click on 'Checkout as a Pay As You Go member', the order summary still shows VIP status. It appears there is no way out.

[calinet6]

It's because the shoe itself is the first item in the VIP membership by nature. If you buy something, you're buying into their whole service.

[danielweber]

This is the end result of blind A/B testing.

[jonny_eh]

That's the most generous interpretation I can find. Still not an excuse though.

[neya]

At first, I disagreed with your tone and profanity. But now, after trying to checkout on that site myself, I realize that it's fair to treat people who knowingly aid scammers, this way. Especially when they are the ones who fund them. It's not like they are innocent little babies, right? They (the company and the investors) know obviously why the conversion rates are so high - Because they are very subtle-y scamming people. We must not encourage this type of shit. It will get back to us at some point. I am with you on this one.

[cabalamat]

> They (the company and the investors) know obviously why the conversion rates are so high - Because they are very subtle-y scamming people.

Indeed. This website could be used as an example on http://darkpatterns.org/

UPDATE: I have emailed Dark Patterns, I hope they feature it on their site.

[agilebyte]

Exactly. I think one of the failures of the current system is that we assume that people are rational. We are not and marketing makes ample use of it.

The company is not providing a better product (shoes) or a better customer experience & support. They are not making the world a better place. Their business model is to make most of human weaknesses. To me, that is not morally right.

[sigkill]

I find Dan Ariely's books on human irrationality very interesting and very easy for normal people like us to get into.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_ariely#Publications

[djhomeless]

Also with you on this. The checkout flow is deliberately misleading. Sorry Mr. VC, you DID do your homework and the fact that you still invested is telling.

First off, what is the "happy path" on this checkout page? Right, totals + shipping costs + grand totals + checkout button. What else is hiding in this element? "Promo Code: 50% off your FIRST item", emphasis mine. What this is telling the consumer, is NOT that you are signing up to the VIP program and getting a discount because of it, it's saying "hey, since you're new, we are giving you a discount".

Would a consumer walk away from the happy path with the assumption that they had signed up to a subscription in exchange for the 50% off for their first item? No.

Yes Mr. VC, the subscription info is here on the page, but the location is not an anchor. The way the page is designed is to funnel the users attention down to the continue checkout button. The product designers knew this. At least GoDaddy puts their useless up-sells in the middle of the page, but they clearly give users an ability to opt out. They don't try to fool users by hiding them on parts of the page where they know they won't look.

Wow, I just said a startup is worse than GoDaddy. Getting frosty in hell no?

[belorn]

> When a user goes to checkout of any online store, they're not going to read everything on every page. It's a process they're very familiar with so they're going to skim and click through quickly. I know this, you know this, and JustFab knows this.

This is the key point. If I know, you know, and JustFab know, then JustFab is without doubt acting in deceitful behavior. The act of deliberately portraying a subscription as an sale, usually comes down to the FTC (and sometimes State law) under the heading of False advertising.

Going to justfab website, nowhere on the front page or in the catalog does the word "subscription" become uttered. Not even in the linked checkout images is it mentioned. Justfab could argue that "everyone knows" that a VIP membership is the same as subscription, but it would be up to them to argue and prove that.

The front page especially could also be targeted, as it states clearly that 2 pairs goes for 39.95, and uses the word "buy" to describe it rather than subscribe.

[nolok]

For adding to your argument, I have a VIP membership at Qatar Airways and it does not include a subscription. So as you say, one does not automatically means the other.

[aestra]

I argue the term "VIP membership" is in itself deceitful on purpose. A VIP membership means nothing, and certainly doesn't mean "subscriber."

"I have a subscription to Wired magazine."

"I have a VIP membership to JustFab."

One the meaning is obvious, the other is meaningless without context.

When you sign up for a site, and create an account, you can be considered a member. I am a member of Hacker News. The VIP is just a potentially meaningless quantifier, some sites like to say "our members our very important people to us."

[cowls]

Agreed, complete scam. From that image it looks like you are making a standard purchase for a pair of shoes, and possibly just signing up to their site. Its only if you read in detail everything on that page and get down to 3 in the bottom right that it finally says you will be charged a monthly fee.

[wpietri]

And remember, my fellow entrepreneurs: if an investor is ok with cheating customers, there's no reason to think they will have a problem cheating you.

[jellicle]

Can't be modded up enough. A person who is nice to you, but mean to the waitstaff, is not a nice person.

[SwellJoe]

Not only that, it contributes to a culture of deceit in the valley (and in tech entrepreneurialism, in general).

This is the same mindset that led to Groupon being funded so heavily. Both seem to be classic examples of the "bigger fool" investment model. We all know it's not a sustainable or ethical business, but investors dive in knowing that with the kind of revenue numbers this sort of thing can exhibit for a short time they'll be able to unload their shares to less savvy investors in a year or two, before the reality of this business sets in (or before the law steps in and makes them act right...like a thousand other retailers that make a modest profit and provide good service and fair dealings).

Investors that fund stuff like this should be shunned by entrepreneurs (hard to do with Groupon's investors, as a lot of smart money went into Groupon). Get rich quick schemes should not be how we build the future.

[HPLovecraft]

this!

[ballard]

Double agree.

Not delivering value for dollar is called one thing: a scam. It might be letter of US law legal (which doesn't have a stellar consumer protections record), but it's dishonest as predatory lending and crap hawked from backs of magazines.

TL;DR Series A investor is trying to rationalize legitimacy to himself in the face of overwhelming conflicting evidence. Don't worry chap, denial is the first step toward accepting you dumped cash on a charlatan. Hopefully it won't end up in plastic barrels in the desert.

The number to cancel VIP is 1-866-337-0906 (as seen on TOS)

[calinet6]

Exactly. It's a bullshit scam. The entire page guides you into signing up for a "VIP" style, but always looks and feels like you're buying a single pair of shoes. It is a scam, plain and simple, and their recurring income is from the privilege of sending poor unwary consumers a new pair of shoes every single month without their full understanding.

It's no better than the mail-order monthly subscription scams of olde. Perhaps people invest in those too, but no one in their right mind claims it's "a great company."

It's a scam using classic deceptive marketing methods. No debate, no question.

[thegna]

"It is a scam, plain and simple, and their recurring income is from the privilege of sending poor unwary consumers a new pair of shoes every single month without their full understanding."

Actually they don't send poor unwary consumers any shoes, they give poor unwary consumers "credits" which most likely got unnoticed and unused.

[rhizome]

What do you think the chances are that they send an email every time the customer is charged, listing their "points" and benefits thereof?

[pbreit]

100%.

They send an email every month prompting members to visit the site to select a pair of shoes or skip.

[rhizome]

Sure, but presentation is everything, especially when using dark patterns. What's the subject line, a general marketing slug like, "What's New at...", with a little bit about points or whatever at the end of the email, or something more specific to the nature of the subscription?

[sigkill]

What's the probability that the customer is unaware that this is a "membership" email rather a monthly email sent because you signed up and bought once? It's not uncommon for Newegg or Amazon to send you emails.

[rz2k]

I suppose it isn't exactly Blue Hippo, but they'd have to be pretty obtuse not to know that it is misleading, regardless of whether it is the old or new version of the page.[1][2]

Take for example item number three shared by both in the side bar: "Skip The Month" or "Skip any month".

This isn't the usual lowercase English word "skip", it is a special "Skip", short for special terminology "Skip the Month", their official term for actively declining within a five day window, not passively skipping a purchase. (The official terms and conditions[3] specify "Skip This Month" rather than "Skip The Month", but that may be another issue.)

Its meaning could be ambiguous if the reader is adept at incorporating new usages for words as they are being defined by the surrounding context. Or, the reader could skim the headings, or the reader simply lacked the reading comprehension skills to grasp that the meaning had changed in the text below the heading.

These challenges can be out of reach for a large majority of adults. Glance at the National Assessment for Adult Literacy[4], see the descriptions of the difference between "intermediate" (44%) and "proficient" (13%), and compare the difficulty of sample questions[5] with the comprehension level needed to grasp the message. (Complete reports can be found here: http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/getpubcats.asp?sid=032)

This extremely poor communication that never seems to happen when people benefit from their customers understanding what they are trying to say, and makes it pretty difficult to deny that their business is based on misleading people.

[1] http://i.imgur.com/3di93.png

[2] http://i.imgur.com/d02xmsy.png

[3] http://www.justfab.com/index.cfm?action=home.terms_and_condi...

[4] http://nces.ed.gov/naal/kf_demographics.asp#2

[5] http://nces.ed.gov/naal/sample.asp

[devrelm]

That's a good call. If while speaking to someone, you told them they could skip the month, they would likely think that no action is needed. Then, the average user's attention is probably gone by the time they get to "Skip as many months as you'd like." At this point, they'd probably be satisfied, stop reading, and never get to the part about "If you do not take action..."

Also, wow. Looking at the progression from the old page to the new page, it becomes obvious that they're trying to hide the "VIP Membership" details.

1) The right-side column has become more narrow.

2) The right-side column becomes almost entirely devoid of color.

3) The right-side columns now uses grey instead of black.

4) The 4th item, originally headlined with "If You Do Not Make A Purchase Or Skip The Month By The 5th, You'll Be Charged $39.99 For A Member Credit On The 6th" in large, bold font is now moved to the end of the details on the 3rd point and changed match the same light, small-print font as those other details. As a side-note, this point is also the 2nd-to-last sentence in the right-side column; this could arguably make it worse since anyone skipping to the bottom would read "Each credit can be redeemed for 1 JustFab item, so use it to shop later!" and think that it doesn't sound bad.

5) The old page requires you to check a box to "accept the terms of the Just Fab VIP Membership Program."

On the old page, the only other stuff on the page appears to be the form. I'd wager that most people viewing the page would at least glance at the right-column's text, thinking that it's instructions. For that matter, moving the membership details to the order summary page from the payment & shipping page is in itself a way of playing it down.

Seeing the two pages side-by-side, I cannot imagine that many if not all of the points described above were specifically designed to lessen likeliness of the user actually reading the membership details.

[sigkill]

Regarding your reference link [1], I just noticed another devious strategy. At the bottom of the page, the "I accept the terms of" is in black for higher visibility while the "JustFab VIP membership program" is in pink. Now, Black on white is easily more visual than hot pink on white. And since the hot pink is next to the black, its visual contrast reduces even more. Combine that with the fact that users are very highly likely to tick a checkbox, any checkbox with the phrasing "accept the terms" it makes this even more sinister.

Regarding link [2] I'm unable to even find a way to 'escape' the subscription process. Oh, no wait, it's again present as a "Checkout as Regular member" again in a hot pink on white scheme while the other giant CONTINUE TO CHECKOUT is in a more contrasty white on pink, and it's larger. Also, wait, if that's the regular member checkout link, then what's the giant checkout button do? Bam, chicanery yet again.

[xerophtye]

woah! are the yusing the "i accept the terms" checkbox to ask if the user wants subscription? NO WAY! How much more deceitful can you get? What frequent user of the internet would even stop to consider that this is NOT the usaul "i accept" but a SPECIAL one?

[bausson]

Seeing the comments, I wonder if the only person he was trying to convince was himself.

From what I see in his comment, it looks quite like a rationalization attempt.

[crag]

This "inventor" wouldn't be the first in line to place profits above people. Most VC's I know don't give two shits about the human elements.

Yeah I know, it's sad.

[capex]

Came to say this. I can smell class action against JustFab.

[personalcompute]

Actually, when you agree to the terms of service, you conveniently waive the right to participate in a class-action lawsuit.

Source: http://www.justfab.com/index.cfm?action=home.terms_and_condi...

[bencollier49]

Are there such things as statutory rights in the US? In the UK, they wouldn't be able to force a waiver of a statutory right.

[babuskov]

No, actually, that never holds in court.

[crag]

These types of "agreements" are never intended to be heard in court. They're to scare the average user. Sort of like what patent trolls do (try) to victims who choose to fight.

This is how low down this company is. At the level of patent trolls. Disgusting.

[CamperBob2]

Unfortunately, thanks to a recent SCOTUS decision, it probably will.

[personalcompute]

Which case was this?

[CamperBob2]

AT&T Mobility LLC v. Concepcion, among other recent rulings.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/04/scotus-rules-att-...

http://blogs.reuters.com/alison-frankel/2013/08/22/how-scotu...

This is why they can require you to waive your rights to participate in a class action. If you look at the ToS for every company you do business with, you'll probably find that several of them were revised almost immediately to take advantage of the AT&T decision. (PayPal comes to mind.)

IANAL but my understanding is that class action lawsuits are basically done at this point.

[CamperBob2]

It does now. See AT&T Mobility LLC v. Concepcion.

[joonix]

Yeah, that doesn't mean a thing.

[aestra]

A class action lawsuit has already been filed.

http://www.scambook.com/blog/2011/10/justfab-com-justfabulou...

[mring33621]

Agreed. This 'investor' is full of shit. Per their own screen capture, there is no line item for 'VIP membership' in the cart section of the page. As such, it reasonably appears that the customer is buying no such thing. But, in fact, they are!

The presence of the sidebar is irrelevant, as it is in no way visually associated with the current transaction.

[drcongo]

I hope this ends up as the most upvoted post in HN history.

[mkr-hn]

I came to it knowing the OP's story and still had to think for a minute to realize the pre-checked VIP option was the monthly thing the OP described. What hope does someone without so much information have?

[skizm]

If investors get a good ROI all legally they might be horrible people but not horrible investors.