[Robotbeat]

GoPro is a US company designed in U.S. with manufacturing in Thailand, China, and Mexico.

Insta360 is a Chinese company designed in Shenzhen and built there, too.

People think this doesn’t matter, but GoPros are used all over in aerospace. If we replaced the brand with Insta360, that puts a big attack vector all over the place.

A similar pattern happened with drones with DJI, intentionally killing all non-Chinese drone brands. And with BambuLabs (founded by ex-DJI) with 3D printers (the only good non-Chinese printer that doesn’t cost 10-100x as much is Prusa, and they’re facing extremely strong headwinds).

Legitimately better Chinese products (incredible engineering) that have massive industrial policy support, probably industrial espionage support (as in the case of DJI for certain), massive influencer marketing campaigns, and near zero cost of capital. When China wants to deindustrialize non-Chinese industries for strategic and/or natsec reasons, they are incredibly good at it. (And note it’s not US-only, China targets basically ANY brand that isn’t Chinese. China absolutely does this to Europe as well… and you can see them doing it in real-time with automotive.)

The only surprising thing to me is how people just act like it’s not happening. I guess for people who don’t have any experience working on federal government adjacent aerospace stuff, the idea of natsec considerations for IT hardware seems entirely abstract, but it’s incredibly real if you do.

[adrianN]

If your country’s industrial and defense policy relies on individual consumers making choices that are worse for them on almost all metrics, it’s time to think about on worse payroll your politicians are.

[mlsu]

Absolutely true. But China’s industrial dominance is also the government immiserating its people, just in a different way. Domestic consumption in China is famously low, work culture is famously bad (996,etc). And this is because of what their government, not the people of China, have chosen to do.

[coldtea]

>But China’s industrial dominance is also the government immiserating its people

Didn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?

>Domestic consumption in China is famously low

Compared to what, the US? Compared to China is at a historical high, isn't it? And they're doing quite well even compared to like 70% of the world and rising.

[graemep]

> Didn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?

A lot of that was the result of stopping doing the damage they had done in previous five decades that resulted in such a high proportion of their population living in poverty.

[faitswulff]

> Didn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?

Yes, but China-bad ideology demands that we ask ”at what cost?”

[indemnity]

I wonder if similar costs were paid when the West was industrializing?

Spoiler: Yes.

[rangestransform]

There was a real human cost to how China industrialized that isn’t “muh freedoms”.

China overproduced STEM grads so that their industries could hire them for pennies on the dollar. They had to withstand insane competition starting in elementary school, only to end up unemployed or doordashing.

This isn’t a PRC specific thing either, TSMC is infamous for having PhDs doing night shift lab tech work for pennies (comparatively).

[nl]

> having PhDs doing night shift lab tech work for pennies

I don't know why people keep bringing this up as though it is surprising.

In almost any field other than AI PhDs are underpaid on average.

There are many, many bio PhDs working as lab technicians.

[seanmcdirmid]

> This isn’t a PRC specific thing either, TSMC is infamous for having PhDs doing night shift lab tech work for pennies (comparatively).

Engineers from Taiwan go to mainland China these days to earn more money. Taiwan was pretty brutal with personal sacrifice in its development as much or if more than the mainland. We could say similar about Korea, Japan, and Singapore as well. This is why Asia seems to be taking over the world now, but the people are about as happy as you’d expect.

[Robotbeat]

In general, I do think the East Asian nations have over-prioritized work for export and industrial policy at the expense of the well-being of their citizens.

[UltraSane]

China isn't bad, the CCP is.

[faitswulff]

That simplistic characterization is still essentially "China-bad." The CCP is the same government responsible for lifting historically unprecedented numbers of people out of abject poverty. Does it make up for other human rights violations? No. But "CCP bad" flattens a complex and powerful political organization into a fairy tale boogeyman.

[holoduke]

The CCP now has proved a 'better' system than the western 'democracy' that is in many ways at the end of its life.

[fragmede]

For bringing people out of poverty, they had laminated placards attached to the doors of people who were poor, and the name of the government official who was responsible for lifting that family out of poverty, and if that government official failed at it, they wouldn't advance in their career.

[20after4]

That's actually kind of brilliant.

[Robotbeat]

Not as much as their East Asian neighbors, who had increasing democracy and fewer deaths to starvation…

[vkou]

Their economy has grown, and continues to grow faster than that of any of their neighbors.

[hmm37]

The Eastern neighbors all also had way more outside funding....

[Scroll_Swe]

>Didn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?

So did the western world.

Ask Poland, the Baltics and East Germany if they want communism back. I'll wait. :)

I am so tired of the praise of China online while condemning the west. Worst part is you probably live in the west.

*Nono, dont reply, just downvote instead :)

[kanbara]

China is not Iron Curtain countries dominated by the USSR. to compare China to Poland has no merit.

China has built high speed rail, a quality universal health care system, and huge tech and mfg sectors. It most certainly is orders of magnitude above East Germany, and not even the same type of socialism.

There are good things about the West and good things about China, it’s not as simple as “our side good”.

[Scroll_Swe]

China is still a dictatorship who massacred its own people despite building high speed rail...

They only got it good when the USA opened relations in the 80s something they never did with Soviet.

China does not have universal health care.

China helps Russia invade Ukraine. That is simple. Unless you like that too?

Also, where do people want to live? North EU. Yet when we keep our lands people call us racist.

[jrowen]

Did that comment indicate any condemnation of the west?

What I'm tired of is zero-sum jingoistic nationalism of any kind. Can we just be happy for all of the world to prosper?

edit: I didn't downvote you but it's probably the uncalled-for cynicism.

[faitswulff]

Nationalism is a cancer

[coldtea]

>Ask Poland, the Baltics and East Germany if they want communism back. I'll wait. :)

We could, but don't expect the results to be as clear cut as you think :)

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-...

https://www.economist.com/europe/2017/10/12/many-eastern-eur...

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2009/11/02/end-of-communi...

https://brnodaily.com/2023/11/20/news/poll-17-of-czechs-say-...

https://english.radio.cz/poll-less-25-feel-better-now-under-...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_nostalgia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostalgie

And of course 2026 China is the very opposite of some failing economy, like Eastern Bloc countries have been in 1989.

[oneshtein]

Many eastern europeans who had good life in soviet block have nostalgia, however, Ukraine fights with all it power to prevent returning back to soviet block, because majority have very unpleasant memories of soviet times and dozens of millions murdered by soviets.

[simplisticelk]

Yes, their system has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty, but government policy is now making Chinese consumers poorer than they otherwise would be in order to support domestic industry. It seem’s to be for geo-strategic reasons rather than in the interests of the Chinese people, it’s also probably unsustainable.

[shunia_huang]

WOW the classic yes...but..., where's these statement coming from? I'm Chinese and I don't get the point here at all, you guys seem living in vacuum with biased news, and know much much better than we people living here, that's really confusing everytime I see/read comments lie this.

China now is open freely for almost everyone, come and see by yourslef, if you not living poverty.

The world itslef does not work the propaganda way whether you dislike or hate the gov for whatever reason. And yes you can criticize the gov as you like with the news you read otr the party you pro with, but never assume how the people feel and belives if you are not the people, and if you do then that's the same mindset as Trump or any other war-bringing president the US had, and you know what they did and still doing.

[AuthorizedCust]

Tell your neighbors, friends, and government bureaucrats about the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre.

Let me know how that goes.

[killerpopiller]

China interns a million Uigurians and other people with beliefs.

[vkou]

> government policy is now making Chinese consumers poorer than they otherwise would be

Right, that sort of thing never happens over here. We don't give the rich tax breaks while robbing the middle class (and saddling it with mountains of debt that will be coming due in their future), we don't print money hand over fist to fund idiotic wars and other vanity projects, and we don't do everything in our power to prevent workers from organizing for higher wages and better working conditions.

Congress and the executive is hard at work to make the American consumer richer than they otherwise would be. Everything they do is with that goal solely in their minds. It's all they live for, not for making their backers and friends richer and more untouchable.

[QuesnayJr]

If governments introduced a whataboutism sin tax, they could solve budget deficits overnight.

[thephyber]

> but government policy is now making Chinese consumers poorer than they otherwise would be

What country has perfect government policy?

The US has atrocious government policies. Costs of college, cost of healthcare insurance, the reason so many uninsured people use the ER as their primary medical usage, tax policy prioritization of capital reinvestment over wage earnings, caring for the environment over affordable housing, etc are all problematic policy outcomes which make the average person poorer.

They are also unsustainable.

[saturn8601]

Work Culture is famously bad? Look I get 996. The Youth seem like they are either next level burned out or on a treadmill that never ends(due to the 25% youth unemployment, the deflation happening and the extreme overabundance of educated professionals). Both are not good. But the original comment listed stellar companies and products that wipe the floor with American made junk. You don't get that without some extensive hard work. Stealing only takes to so far, you gotta do a lot more on top of that.

[Spooky23]

Not for nothing, but what do you think is happening in the United States?

American workers have lost income on inflation adjusted terms from 2000-2025. The top 5 companies have a market cap that exceeds the top 30 in 2000, and the concentration of those companies is a single industry vs a diverse collection.

Consolidation of power and capital is reality everywhere. China is not a boogeyman. Go there.

[lokar]

Consumption is not just low, it’s intentionally suppressed.

[lostlogin]

> who’s payroll your politicians are on

It doesn’t even have to be foreign - it can just be corrupt self interest.

What other explanation is there for attacking Venezuela and Iran?

[Robotbeat]

I don't even think it's corrupt self-interest. Just idiotic bravado and wanting to settle long held grudges.

[voicedYoda]

Distraction from the Epstein files

[zzzbra]

You’re getting downvoted for this which is crazy.

[nonethewiser]

Its more like lack of policy. To be clear, we are talking about China winning IoT hardware industry in this case. That’s not a policy.

You could ban Chinese IoT devices. Or spur local industry. But we aren’t talking about the military relying on Chinese hardware or something.

[groundzeros2015]

This is the idea behind a tariff

[t0mpr1c3]

The "idea" of Trump's tariffs (if there ever was one) is to subvert the US constitution which places taxation under the control of congress, not the president.

[Brendinooo]

The person you replied to did not mention a specific leader's policy.

[spacewrangler]

False. Tariffs are a standard foreign policy tool used as an economic negotiating tactic.

[t0mpr1c3]

The US government is literally refunding the tariffs because they were illegal.

[spacewrangler]

Tariffs still exist, some were ordered to stop, but there are plenty still being implemented today, and will be in the future; regardless of which party is in power.

[groundzeros2015]

That doesn’t respond to this comment.

[handle584]

Doesn't this apply to China in the first place? Their GFW practically blocked such choices for decades already.

[wisty]

So Trump was right to call for tariffs?

[romaaeterna]

There's no real solution other than long-term tariffs. However the President doesn't have the power to do it and Congress doesn't have the willpower. 6-month flash-in-the-pan efforts can only cause chaos.

[skitsofrandom]

It's easy to get all high and mighty but there really doesn't have to be complex subterfuge behind "replacing the majority of our technical infrastructure with devices solely created within the borders of our primary military, industrial, and economic rival is not a good idea for security and sovereignty."

We cast aside local manufacturing for cheaper prices in another country and are going to pay the price one way or another.

[TooSmugToFail]

GoPro was outcompeted on the market. Simple as that.

They were made irrelevant by Insta360 and DJI, both with legitimately better products.

In my view, the only entity to blame for that is GoPro. And I believe that the shortfall was not only in matters of technology. My limited interactions with them painted a picture of an organisation with some super clever people, but paralysed by slow bureaucracy and high risk aversion.

By contrast, Insta360 was much more aggressive and enterprising, while DJI just did what DJI does: build amazing products.

Trying to blame this on some arcane Chinese plot to destroy the West is just a weak attempt to cope with reality: in China today there is simply much higher number of hard working, highly intelligent, highly educated people that are hungry for success then there are in the West.

One thing we forget is that the two great Chinese companies in this space (Insta and DJI) had first to compete against hundreds (thousands?) of other Chinese camera companies before they could come out on the top and compete globally.

They are not a product of a CCP plot. They are a result of a ruthlessly competitive and capable local ecosystem, itself a result of decades of consistent industrial and innovation policy.

Nothing is stopping us in the EU and US to do the same.

[gchamonlive]

Reads to me like it's free market doing its job, if you think of countries as companies. US just needs to step up its game.

[jaapz]

It's not really a free market when one country is heavily subsidizing it's industries

[tejtm]

It is not as though other countries could not choose do the same.

It seem to me that China choosing to subsidize industry it is not so different than the US choosing to subsidize Roads, Autos and OIL.

In both cases it does seem to work splendidly as intended.

Other than political inertia (or economic reasons far beyond my ability to fathom) there is nothing to stop the US from following suit.

I accept "free market" is a term of art probably from before global trade reality and could be narrowly redefined to mean whatever one wants (or wanted when it was coined) but in my ignorance I see it simply as free to choose actions and responses.

But I am far far away from opinions I am qualified to hold, think I will shut up now.

[whall6]

> roads

I think even the Chicago school would agree that roads should be public

> autos

I absolutely detest US policy with respect to autos so I will not refute this

> oil

Matter of strategic importance that isn’t related to spying or subterfuge. The Nazis probably would have won WWII if they hadn’t run out of diesel. I’m not sure digital cameras come close to this.

[pastel8739]

But you could imagine a country that invested, in addition to roads, cars, and oil, in public transportation, cities that you can get around on foot, and in renewable energy. Such a country might be better off that the US is now.

[artisinal]

Not everyone wants public transport. I never use it. Don’t like being so close to other people. And it is much more expensive where I live. Four friends going for a day trip to the big city is €120+ by train and bus.

Had another look. It’s €265 just for the four train tickets alone, in the lowest class. €375 if you want to travel in comfort class. Two hour journey.

[lyu07282]

I think the overwhelming and undeniable success and prosperity of China is the biggest concern to the west, the neoliberals consistently predicted their immediate downfall that never came. Except we are all still led by the same neoliberals proven wrong about everything, the contradictions everywhere are driving us all into collective insanity. If we don't manage to purge our media and governments from these vile people the only path forward is collective decline, increased totalitarianism and our repression leading to a war with China. Wars don't always end in the right side winning, and the cold war was won by the wrong side.

[tejtm]

Thanks, not to disagree but it may be best to use plain language as I do not know what a neoliberal is to me never mind what it means to you.

I do know liberal is used as a derisive term by the people we (US) are being led by which leads me to cognitive dissonance parsing your statement.

[justinclift]

> the neoliberals consistently predicted their immediate downfall that never came.

That doesn't seem correct. Wasn't the predication that once China started to become successful they'd open up and become more democratic?

Which clearly didn't happen, as per the outright slaughter of the Chinese university students who were protesting in 1989: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests...

[lostlogin]

So ridiculous. So a bit of subsidy is ok, but no more than the US does? As a country that’s suffered from the US subsidising its own industries, my sympathy is zero.

[throwaway2037]

    > As a country that’s suffered from the US subsidising its own industries

What country and what industries? I am curious. Do you think that you own country does not do the same to others?

[lostlogin]

> What country and what industries?

New Zealand. Meat exports and dairy.

[throwaway2037]

I would assume that China is your biggest trade partner for both of those categories. Is the US a major trade partner for either of those categories? I find it hard to believe. The US (and most rich countries) have way too much domestic dairy farm capacity. As a result, there is lots of govt subsidies paid to dairy farmers.

[watwut]

This particular complaint is tripple hypocritical. US whole deal is to sell under price until competition dies and only then bring up prices or remove offering.

It winner takes all econony is literally based on destroying the competition as such.

[t0mpr1c3]

Ignoring foreign patents also played a big part in US industrialization.

[nikisweeting]

and the US famously never subsidizes any of its industries...

[creato]

> Between 2005 and 2024, Chinese firms received on average three to eight times more subsidies than competitors in OECD economies.

https://www.oecd.org/en/blogs/2026/06/industrial-subsidies-h...

[baby]

I can't read this seriously while being unable to buy any Chinese EVs here in the US.

[tptacek]

You can't buy Chinese EVs in the US because China is overtly running a dumping campaign for them. It's an interesting story, read up on it!

[lostlogin]

What’s the level of subsidy that’s ok?

[throwaway2037]

I'll take a stab. How about something like not more than 50% greater than OECD average per industry? My point: It seems reasonable that some countries was to specialise in certain areas. For example: Taiwan and (East!) Germany chose to build-out their semiconductor industry starting in the 1980s. It has paid pretty good dividends with a healthy amount of industrial subsidies. I also think the OECD should be raising tariff rates to protect against ridiculous levels of Chinese subsidies.

[blitzar]

"my level" - $1 more is cheating

[gruez]

Which industries are the US leading in because of subsidies?

[bruce511]

Arms, weapons, fighter jets and so on. The US sounds a trillion $ a year subsidizing the military industrial complex.

The US chose their market (arms). The Chinese chose consumer goods. Go figure.

[tadfisher]

Basically every "made in USA" consumer product has a DOD contract. The DOD is mandated by law to purchase from US companies, so there is a huge sector of small-to-medium businesses which only exist because there is a guaranteed order coming every quarter for uniforms or boots or other equipment that would likely be 1/3 the price if they were contract-manufactured in China or Vietnam.

Not saying this is uniformly bad, because without the law the number of businesses with the ability to manufacture this stuff would trend toward zero, but it is a form of subsidy.

[sarchertech]

US Arms exports bring in around $13 billion a year. The military industrial complex is a domestic jobs program that sells the vast majority of what it makes domestically. The US is clearly not spending a trillion dollars a year subsidizing defense in order to make their products more competitive in other markets.

https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/arms_exports/

[mstachowiak]

Sadly, consumer goods are the new arms (drones, batteries, etc)

[nick238]

Oil, natural gas, corn (for fuel), soybeans (for cattle feed)

[greyb]

If a country hands out enormous subsidies but yet isn't leading in anything, then maybe it's time to consider what structural reasons are causing these subsidies to be squandered and whose bottom lines are being padded.

[sarchertech]

What US industries get anywhere near Chinese level subsidies.

[t0mpr1c3]

Ever wondered why everything in the USA contains corn syrup? Because sugar is artificially expensive (roughly double the global price) due to import tariffs that protect US sugar cane farmers.

[baby]

EVs, mobile phones, are two massive industries where Chinese competitors are not only way ahead, but also basically banned.

[g8oz]

Successful Chinese industries tend to be subsidized at the level of cities and regions. This creates fierce intra national rivalry that forces rapid evolution and excellence. Electric vehicles are an example.

Anything the federal government pumps money into tends not to do as well.

[layla5alive]

When Uber does it: good. When China does it: bad.

[oneshtein]

When we do it: it fine. When they do it: it's bad!

[nicbou]

It's not much more of a free market when giant corporations do.

[tchalla]

Every country including the US does that.

[fireflash38]

Does it matter? When has capitalism cared about fair or free

[FpUser]

Or when one country can print endless money while threatening the rest of the world with all kinds of punishment if they stop using it as a reserve currency.

Stop crying already. US subsidizes a boatload of things.

[ckemere]

Perhaps a huge tell about national strategy is the fact that the owner has $10s of millions to loan to the company? US economic structure in post WWII era has increasingly focused on return on capital (and value extraction). How can that compete in long term with an economy which prioritizes reinvestment *in industry*?

[tyre]

One would presume that the founder is investing their money into something, probably equities, that is an investment in industry. They could be either selling those equities for a loan here or taking a loan against those equities to loan to GoPro (if the cost of capital is lower for them than GoPro, which seems plausible.)

I generally agree with your point about value extraction vs. re-investment.

[inigyou]

Equities aren't investment in industry except when there's an IPO or SPO. The rest of the time, it's zero-sum.

[t0mpr1c3]

What you just said makes no sense. How can equities come into existence except via an IPO or similar mechanism?

Equities are literally investments in business. Equity is a line in the balance sheet for every corporation.

[inigyou]

Exactly. How can they come into existence except via an IPO or similar mechanism? At that moment, investment happens. The rest of the time, it does not. The stock market rising does not increase investment in industry. When you buy stocks at a stock exchange, you aren't investing in industry

[t0mpr1c3]

You are saying that "investment" only happens when you provide capital to a corporation.

Presumably, under this definition, when you sell stock that is not "disinvestment".

Unless you are selling it back to the company itself. Then it is "disinvestment", because the total amount of capital provided to the corporation has gone down.

That is not what people mean by the term "investment". You need to find a different word, because "investment" has a more general meaning than the concept you are talking about.

[computerex]

People know it’s happening. What do you expect an average consumer to do about it? Pay more out of pocket due to the potential national security risks?

[bambax]

You can't pay more to get a better drone than DJI's. You can pay more (although it's difficult) to get a worse drone. Much worse.

[toss1]

Right, because in an actual free market where DHI was not heavily subsidized, DJI drones would cost MUCH more, and the other drones would be competitive.

Same for BYD vs Tesla and every other car. It is easy to win in the "free market" when you give away your product.

Same for Uber and Lyft for many years — subsidized by VCs until they gained massive scale, effectively killed all the other competition, and now the prices have gone up when they have a lock on the market, a large moat, and the VCs want a return. In my area, what was a $30 ride to the airport a few years ago, far cheaper than any airport service, is now $89.

The entire concept of a "free market" is idealized to the point of fiction.

[ErroneousBosh]

Next year you'll have a fair old choice of drones from Ukrainian manufacturers though, when they're no longer needed to defeat Putin.

[Scroll_Swe]

And remember dear readers, China and Iran openly helps Russia in their invasion of Ukraine. It is like the cold war never ended.

China's covert military training of Russian forces last year was personally approved by President Vladimir Putin's defence minister and directly involved at least four Russian and Chinese generals, according to two European officials and documents seen by Reuters.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-ap...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Support_for_Russia_in_the_Russ...

One of EUs biggest trading partners wants Ukraine to lose to Russia...

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3316875/ch...

Iran helps with Shaeed Drones as known

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shahed_136#Geran-2

With Chinese parts btw.

North Korea is in too with 10k troops at least and massive ammo. Traded for food and wheat from Ukraine.

[ErroneousBosh]

> Iran helps with Shaeed Drones as known

This ought to be a useful message for the US, too, whose Russian-owned government didn't want to help provide Ukraine with much in the way of weapons.

The US got an absolute pasting in Hormuz from Iranian drones, and maybe if they'd had some Ukrainian kit they'd have come off a little better.

[Scroll_Swe]

This is a funny view to me.

USA has complete air superiority over Iran. But when they bomb people like you complain.

[shmeeed]

I like that thought

[sylos]

In today's environment people can't even make the choice to pay more. The productn are just priced out of reach!

[Gigachad]

I would pay more to have a product the US doesn’t have its hands in.

[tomaskafka]

Simon Wardley has been shouting this from the rooftops, including detailed per industry timelines when China will take over, in 2015.

[vitaflo]

Also on Avinox motors on e-mtn bikes. Originally made by DJI, then spun off into their own company, and they are starting to eat the competition on all e-mtn bikes at this point. Bosch, TQ, Shimano, et al just can't compete, especially because Avinox is iterating at startup pace and all the rest are iterating at bike pace (slowly).

[bob778]

This is the key though: it’s not just supposed subsidies, because the Chinese companies are fundamentally just faster and more efficient

[throwaway2037]

I would argue the real answer is world class supply chain for high tech manufacturing. And that supply chain is heavily subsidised.

[theshrike79]

Not just subsidised, but the supply chain is literally in the same block.

That's the thing Chinese do where other countries can't compete. If you're making product X, all of your suppliers are within walking distance around your assembly line.

In Europe they might be 4 countries over.

[thephyber]

This is written like an American who is both ignorant of cybersecurity, American politics, and of the advantages that the US has benefitted from since at least WW2.

The core points are:

  - we can't trust a connected GoPro device any more than a connected DJI device

  - Just because a device is developed in China doesn't make it a vulnerability.

  - Just because a device is made in the US doesn't make it resistant to vulnerabilities.

  - US politicians don't have any incentive to tell us the truth. Because of the nature of national security, they could completely lie about any accusations of Chinese involvement and we would never know, especially now that the US president fired anyone who resists his demands for fealty.

  - GoPro was first to market but stopped adding value once they IPOed. US public companies depending on IP protections / rent seeking rather than cutthroat competition is the core reason DJI is beating GoPro, not Chinese government subsidies to the sector.

  - China's middle and upper classes are far larger than the US's. Similarly, they are training more college grads. China also has more companies being created and more creative destruction than the US. It doesn't matter if we build a better v1.0 product because their innovation engine is moving at least as fast as ours.

  - the US has had a 70 year head start on "a near zero cost of capital". Being the west's financier after WW2 and later the world's reserve currency.

I don't pity a US company because it chose not to compete with a Chinese company despite starting from an advantage.

[belowavgiq]

His point wasn't that chinese-made products have more vulnerabilities, what? what are these reading skills. GoPro has probably never been in a patent litigation in their favor. His point wasn't limited to GoPro either.

The main driving force isn't anything but the simple fact that they can undercut everyone. Some of it is innovation in production methods, some of it subsidies, some of it is the low salaries, some of it is the 12hour shifts seen as normal.

Is it deserved? Sure. They let western companies unintentionally ship their entire know-how to China. Is it OK from a US perspective, does it mean that they can't do anything now, and should just source Chinese products for everything? Hell no.

Thanks for making HN as braindead as Reddit! Thanks to people like you, I'm becoming a master at translating Chinese socials!

[thih9]

> GoPros are used all over in aerospace. If we replaced the brand with Insta360, that puts a big attack vector all over the place.

What would the attack vector be? I’m not saying there isn’t any, I don’t know much about aerospace and this sounds interesting.

[snapetom]

Cameras need to connect somewhere, somehow to offload their videos/photos. Whether that's network, USB, SD card, those are all attack vectors. Hell, even the files themselves can act as payloads.

[froh]

they don't do that while flying though.

[lostlogin]

> What would the attack vector be?

The cameras. But quite how, I don’t know.

[TheCondor]

My Insta360s have wifi builtin, you have to connect to it with their phone app to do some of the processing. It's kind of nice, especially away from home but I wouldn't know how you'd know if it connected to something else or something else connected to it.

I don't know how you'd get devices like that certified for certain higher security applications.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Any backdoored camera with wireless networking can take pictures remotely.

[fwn]

Cloud risks are very true - for both GoPro and DJI.

About a year ago, I was looking for an action camera. I found a good DJI product, but then I learned that you have to link the camera to an app in order to use it. I am fundamentally opposed to that idea, so I looked up the equivalent GoPro camera. Turns out GoPro also requires you to activate the camera with a smartphone app.

I don't want to send my data to a company for something as trivial as an action cam. I was surprised to find that the US model had such an evil requirement, mirroring the Chinese model.

In the end, I bought the DJI action cam (cheaper, better) and activated it in a public location using a burner phone. You only need to use the app once to free the device and take it offline, after which you can delete the surveillance app. I have found no fingerprinting in the created media yet.

GoPro would have made an easy sale with me, if they had been more privacy/power aware.

[dismalaf]

As someone with both an Insta360 camera and a Bambu printer, I feel it, would love to buy GoPro and Prusa, but the value just isn't there.

For one, I had a GoPro whose sensor broke after about 20 minutes of recorded. I ended up getting 3 different replacements, all of which also broke. In the end I just forgot about it when my home burnt down in a wildfire. I got an Insta360 with better picture quality that's also been more reliable for a similar cost.

And I would have loved to buy a Prusa printer but I got a Bambu P1S combo for $600, an equivalent Prusa plus the $300 shipping to Canada would have been ~$2500 CAD. For making trinkets for my 3 year old son plus the few random other things I'd make it's not worth it to pay 4x the money.

Maybe it'll forever be this way due to the differences in cost of living but I do feel as though there's a million barriers to entry to building a business in North America, at least a business that's not fully online.

[sarchertech]

Unless Canadian prices are much much higher than US, the only Prusa that costs that much is a Core One L or a Prusa XL.

Neither one of those are equivalent to a P1S. They’re 2 tiers above it. Equivalent Bambu printers sell for about the same price.

I have printers from both companies. There are tradeoffs for each, but Prusa isn’t 4x more for an equivalent printer.

[dismalaf]

Core One+ is $1899 CAD, the MMU3 for the Core One+ is $579 CAD and shipping was quoted over $300 since they ship from Europe and not the US to Canada. Just put these into their shopping cart on their site, right now quoting $2887 (including shipping and duties).

I did get a particularly good deal on the P1S combo apparently, the price on their website already higher than what I paid and it's significantly less in Canada than the US with exchange rate. Are they exactly equivalent, dunno, but both are the cheapest Core XY models with enclosure + colour changer that either sell.

Prusa is also cheaper in the US and EU than Canada.

[Robotbeat]

FWIW you can get a kit Core One+ for $999 USD in the US. I actually prefer to get the machine as a kit as assembly helps with understanding the workings of the machine for maintenance.

[sarchertech]

They’re not remotely equivalent though. That’s like saying that a raspberry pi and 16” monitor are equivalent to a MacBook Pro because that’s the cheapest 16” monitor Apple sells.

[dismalaf]

Okay so explain the difference to a normal consumer because I'm printing toys for my kid...

Both are enclosed and both do 4 colors in a variety of materials. Both are the cheapest version of that that each company offers.

IMO it's more like comparing a Honda to a Mercedes. I'm sure the Mercedes is better but a Honda gets you places all the same.

[sarchertech]

It’s more like comparing a Honda to an F-350.

If all you want to do is drive the kids to school, you want the Honda, but that doesn’t make the 2 products equivalent.

But if all you’re doing is printing toys for the kids an A1 mini would have been less than half the price of the P1S. The enclosure is mostly a waste if you’re only printing PLA. You’re going to end up venting anyway. Core XY is a little faster than a bedslinger, but if you’re doing a lot of multi color prints, the material change time will dominate, so you won’t see much practical difference.

> both do a variety of materials.

The p1s does not regulate the chamber temperature, so the variety of materials you can get good results either is much more limited.

[xorcist]

> the only good non-Chinese printer that doesn’t cost 10-100x as much is Prusa

They hardly have time to compete, busy as they are with foot-shooting practice.

[muro]

Not sure what you mean. Had a mk 4 or what the last one was - excellent. Now on core one (or what the name is for the enclosed one), also great.

[dismalaf]

Dunno, Prusa seems to have mostly forgotten about consumers as their industrial business is booming.

Stuff like this: https://sensofusion.com/dronefactory/

[rasz]

This is of course beyond stupid considering the pace of 3d printer vs one PET bottle blow molding machine that can produce same shape shells at thousand units /hour.

[inigyou]

They're completely different niches. Blow molding helps you make a million of a thing, 3D printing helps you make a million different things. There's great for low volume items without significant strength requirements. That includes prototypes but also anything niche - like parts for blow molding machines.

[inigyou]

Another comment mentioned you can CNC a blow mold. That's completely true and I'm not versed in it enough to know when you'd prefer subtractive or additive rapid prototyping. A 3D printer is a bit more flexible in the shapes it can make but it can only make them out of plastic, which is a huge tradeoff.

[dismalaf]

Is it? With a 3d printer you can print any piece on demand, change design without changing tooling and make pieces that are semi-hollow inside for lightness.

Edit - should add, early in the war Ukraine was crowd-sourcing drone parts from citizens with 3D printers at home. This likely grew from that.

[rasz]

This isnt endurance contest, interceptor drones are half battery half explosive with miniscule weight taken by motors electronics and packaging. We are talking 10KW power draw for around a minute.

You can rapid manufacture moulds too, cnc alu is good for 1K shots easily.

[imtringued]

But blow moulding machines big enough to make a drone shell are massive.

If you had suggested a more portable technology like vacuum forming maybe you would have a point, but blow moulding is definitely one of the more expensive and least portable ways of forming plastic.

[rasz]

Massive is subjective, you can fit 10 packed or 5 set-up and running machines in one container https://cntaiso.en.made-in-china.com/product/iXYEPnyvhsUl/Ch...

[ajsnigrutin]

For us living in "the rest of the world", we only have a choice of being spied on by chinese or american companies, and american ones can do a lot more damage to us than chinese.

So if we're getting spied on anyway, why not buy a better product?

[Robotbeat]

So long as you don’t live in India, Taiwan, Australia, Japan, South Korea… or maybe even the countries Russia their ally is antagonistic with, like Ukraine, Turkey, all of Europe.

[a34729t]

100%. It would strongly behoove the US to encourage domestic 3d printer manufacture (or friendly countries like Japan), to the point of bannning Bambu and Chinese companies. Obviously we are doing fine for industrial 3d printers, but the small scale consumer stuff is very important too.

If and when AI commiditizes professional services, it would be good to have modern industry to fall back on. With 3d printing the gap isnt insurmountable yet.

However, our country is run by lawyers, not engineers, so I dont have too much hope. At least a lot of our billionaires started out as engineers...

[Hammershaft]

The cost of your proposed policies to consumers, to the Americans who can create because of cheap great Chinese printers and wouldn't be able to create under your policy... is much greater than the abstract industrial policy benefit.

[throwaway2037]

    > GoPros are used all over in aerospace

What percent of GoPro sales are used by aerospace? My guess: It is tiny. Not enough to keep GoPro alive.

[darksim905]

I'm not sure what stops some of these industries from essentially being more nationalist like China, but more centrist as a company like Palantir. If these risks are as big as you claim, a centralized authority should reverse engineer the things that work done in China or where-ever and use open source/build a better software stack that supplants what's out on the market currently.

[nonethewiser]

I think the engineering is actually pretty irrelevant in terms of the competitiveness

[traceroute66]

> If we replaced the brand with Insta360, that puts a big attack vector all over the place

Oh right, because the US has never done that ? Its public knowledge the US does supply-chain interdiction, see the infamous NSA “upgrade” factories as just one example.

The US is also just as capable of writing buggy code full of security holes as everyone else. Even more so today with the advent of "vibe code it and ship it".

It is only an attack vector if you allow it to be so, defence in depth and all that ...

> I guess for people who don’t have any experience working on federal government adjacent aerospace stuff, the idea of natsec considerations for IT hardware seems entirely abstract

But its all magically ok if its got a "designed in the USA" and/or "made in the USA" badge on it ?

The problem I see here is a desire to use COTS stuff out-of-the-box in natsec environments led by a desire to save money and/or save time. Seems to me like one of those "pick two" moments where the "security" option was thrown in the trash.

[browningstreet]

GoPro has been “in trouble” for years and years. All of that may be true but they just haven’t justified their survival. They may well be better off selling to Garmin or another domestic air defense vendor and be done in the consumer market.

FWIW current administration wants to play this same game, but they def won’t do it as well.

[mvdtnz]

Sounds like a problem for America. And totally irrelevant to the state of GoPro the company. It sounds like you're advocating for corporate welfare on the basis that a failing company is "based in" USA, even though their most impactful operations are overseas.

[starky]

>People think this doesn’t matter, but GoPros are used all over in aerospace. If we replaced the brand with Insta360, that puts a big attack vector all over the place.

I'm actually surprised to hear that GoPro is used in aerospace applications. I assumed that they would use cameras from companies like Teledyne that have a more industrial/military customer base. That is to say, there are almost certainly options for domestic camera manufacturers if required.

You are right about China. The West (especially Apple) taught China how to manufacture while losing the ability ourselves and for some reason didn't consider that they would figure out how to design products themselves and bring the entire product chain within the country.

Individuals at the end of the day mostly care about buying the cheapest thing that does the job. They don't consider where it comes from. Even those that do care have limits in how they will compromise (there is a reason why I bought Bambu Labs 3D printer even though I would have preferred a Prusa).

[samiv]

The western countries deindustrialized themselves though. That's just capitalism chasing ever increasing profits and moving production to where it's cheaper, i.e.from west to China. In fact this was cherished because it increased share holder profits.

[PunchyHamster]

I'm not sure what attack vectors are there if you don't connect your camera to company wifi, I guess it could technically put a payload on SD card but... eh ?

> When China wants to deindustrialize non-Chinese industries for strategic and/or natsec reasons, they are incredibly good at it. (And note it’s not US-only, China targets basically ANY brand that isn’t Chinese. China absolutely does this to Europe as well… and you can see them doing it in real-time with automotive.)

First, Gopros are made and assembled in China (with I think some in Mexico now to avoid tariffs). And absolutely nothing stops them from just sending potentially malicious firmware to the non-china made ones too

Second China didn't make Gopros fucking overheat, shoddy engineering did. They rested on their laurels while competition worked hard on making better product. If it was just production costs the top end GoPros would be the best in the niche, just more expensive, but no they are both more expensive and worse product.

Third, it is not "Chinese govt. doing it" (tho they are certainly helping), it is west constantly sending their tech advantage away just to get some cheap production there. Whether directly like Apple or Tesla, or indirectly, by allowing chinese capital to buy western car companies and instantly get all the tech then just apply their more integrated production to make same stuff cheaper.

West gave China their advantage willingly, for a short term profits, and continue to do so, then try to mask it as some kind of malicious push (not saying it isn't happening, just saying the western companies are complicit in it) rather than corporate greed ruining everything yet again.

[msie]

If GoPro is manufactured in China then it’s no more secure than Insta360.

[hdgvhicv]

If you’ve spent a life and the market being supreme then it’s a shock. China’s economic system is wiping the floor with the west.

The U.K. has just nationalised a steel plant which had been bought by China to stop it from being destroyed, and of course the economic right wing hate this as steel is far cheaper to import.

[lostlogin]

Britain is on a hell of a trajectory. First Brexit then the rise of Reform.

If that scam of a man wins the next election, it’ll be quite the show.

[inigyou]

It's basically the same past trajectory of Germany, no? Many countries are on it right now.

[lostlogin]

Bailing out the EU was a big hit to the economy and not many countries have taken hits like that.

There are estimates as high as 10% of GDP, though 6-8% seem more agreed upon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_effects_of_Brexit

[hdgvhicv]

Reform reached 31% in the polls and have slipped to 26%. there’s a (slim) chance Farage will be beaten by a comedian in a bin.

Trump reached 55% and became president. Twice.

Pot. Kettle.

[t0mpr1c3]

You're not wrong.

But unlike the USA, at least Britons realized Brexit was a mistake. And that Johnson was corrupt and a liar.

I am a citizen of both the UK and USA.

It is astonishing to me that Trump could be voted back in after attempting a coup.

[worik]

> China wants to deindustrialize non-Chinese industries for strategic and/or natsec reasons,

No. Not even close

China wants its place at the table.

With Erope and USA

People seem to think a developed China is a threat. But they are not staying in rural poverty for ever for our sake. That is not a threat.

They are not trying to "deindustrialise" anybody, just finding a place amongst equals

[foxes]

Lol your country and your capitalism helped build China.

Wasn't that the thing like ~30 years ago? All the western companies pushing manufacturing into China for increased profit?

Capitalism and the west gave all that power away :), you deindustrialised yourselves.

[TheArcane]

boo hoo china bad, buy my more expensive and shitty american product

[RiggedEconomy]

The biggest attack vector against the world is is Israel and Zionism, not China. Stop bashing China. Its getting silly and infantile.

[pvaldes]

You have a point here. China vs USA is just a part of the whole thing.

If we discuss the problem of China doing industrial spying and applying subsides to destroy non-chinese companies, we should mention also that countries like Israel had been stealing tirelessly for decades every US army and US industrial secrets that they could grab. They had been caught later selling this secrets for money to third countries like Russia. And the cherry on top is that all was subsidized, but with US money this time.

Denying North Korean or Chinese people access to places with industrial secrets, while at the same time granting Israeli people free VIP access just because... "white people" (so they can sell it to Russia, and Russians can sell it later to China and NK) does not really make any sense.

[coldtea]

>People think this doesn’t matter, but GoPros are used all over in aerospace. If we replaced the brand with Insta360, that puts a big attack vector all over the place.

In what way exactly? The camera will magically communicate to the mothership?

[slim]

China does not want to deindustrialize any country. Why do you think of everything in terms of war and domination ? China has built a industry capable of taking any product and make it better and cheaper. There is no psycho strategy behind it. They will do it till every chinese will live a comfortable life equal to an american. At that point america will be able to compete again.

[lokar]

The CCP has publicly explained that their strategy is indeed to dominate key sectors via gov subsidies, de-industrialize other nations and gain strategic leverage in the process.

[inigyou]

Why doesn't America do that too? It seems to work really really well.

[lokar]

Two main reasons. It requires taking a lot of freedom / agency away from individuals, and redirecting much of the profits of successful enterprises to subsidies (and suppressing individual consumption and standard of living).

[Robotbeat]

America does that for aerospace & some defense stuff. But the reason not to is that the industrial policy needed to do it like China does has the effect of reduced wages, longer work hours, and lower quality of life.

[lokar]

The US (and EU/UK) subsidies defense, but imo that’s different. First, it’s more understandable to want domestic arms production. Second, they are not seeking to subsidize to undercut foreign suppliers and drive them out of business.

The US is not pushing subsidized F35 fighters all over the world to drive other producers under.

[rasz]

government first intervened in British Steel last year to prevent its then-owner, the Chinese company Jingye Group, from shutting it down https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/16/business/britain-national...