[coldtea]

>But China’s industrial dominance is also the government immiserating its people

Didn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?

>Domestic consumption in China is famously low

Compared to what, the US? Compared to China is at a historical high, isn't it? And they're doing quite well even compared to like 70% of the world and rising.

[faitswulff]

> Didn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?

Yes, but China-bad ideology demands that we ask ”at what cost?”

[indemnity]

I wonder if similar costs were paid when the West was industrializing?

Spoiler: Yes.

[rangestransform]

There was a real human cost to how China industrialized that isn’t “muh freedoms”.

China overproduced STEM grads so that their industries could hire them for pennies on the dollar. They had to withstand insane competition starting in elementary school, only to end up unemployed or doordashing.

This isn’t a PRC specific thing either, TSMC is infamous for having PhDs doing night shift lab tech work for pennies (comparatively).

[nl]

> having PhDs doing night shift lab tech work for pennies

I don't know why people keep bringing this up as though it is surprising.

In almost any field other than AI PhDs are underpaid on average.

There are many, many bio PhDs working as lab technicians.

[seanmcdirmid]

> This isn’t a PRC specific thing either, TSMC is infamous for having PhDs doing night shift lab tech work for pennies (comparatively).

Engineers from Taiwan go to mainland China these days to earn more money. Taiwan was pretty brutal with personal sacrifice in its development as much or if more than the mainland. We could say similar about Korea, Japan, and Singapore as well. This is why Asia seems to be taking over the world now, but the people are about as happy as you’d expect.

[Robotbeat]

In general, I do think the East Asian nations have over-prioritized work for export and industrial policy at the expense of the well-being of their citizens.

[numpad0]

It feels to me more like, East Asian nations tend to have robust domestic sets of expectations that tend to be more stringent, reinforced by geological and cultural barriers, and comparatively lower international castes. Anyone born in EA have no choice but to constantly beat the average and to make contributions to the street cred jar for the nation. And that produce such things as TSMC chips and DJI drones and 7-11 egg salad sandwiches.

[UltraSane]

China isn't bad, the CCP is.

[faitswulff]

That simplistic characterization is still essentially "China-bad." The CCP is the same government responsible for lifting historically unprecedented numbers of people out of abject poverty. Does it make up for other human rights violations? No. But "CCP bad" flattens a complex and powerful political organization into a fairy tale boogeyman.

[anjel]

> lifting historically unprecedented numbers of people out of abject poverty.

Basically true, but not much more than that for most Chinese. The urban modern success story presented to the world is a surprisingly small segment of a notably larger population and even for many in that smaller more fortunate segment the gravy days are long ago and no sign of returning yet.

https://eastasiaforum.org/2011/08/19/in-the-city-but-not-of-...

[UltraSane]

And chinese don't have full freedom of movement. China uses a system called called hukou which binds a persons rights and benefits to their birthplace. This has created a population of 350 million rural migrants who live in cities but still have a rural hukou and are treated like second class citizens in their own country.

https://borgenproject.org/chinas-hukou-system-restricts-mobi...

[holoduke]

China is a communists based country. Everything is organized and for everything there is a plan. Unlike America where it's free for all. We probably would die from unhappiness in China. But it works for them and they are pretty successful in it.

[UltraSane]

The worst part of the CCP is it's hatred for free speech

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jul/16/hong-kong-book...

Five arrested in Hong Kong bookstore raids in ‘seditious’ materials crackdown

Third round of arrests linked to independent bookshops widely regarded as clampdown on dissent in territory

[coldtea]

If that's the "worst part" about them, reacting like that to sedition plans, it sounds quite tame.

It's not like people elsewhere, cough, are not arrested for protesting against the bombing in Palestine or against ICE. Or, on the other side of the pond (and on the other side of the political spectrum), for tweeting against illegal immigration to their country. Or in Germany for merely calling the chancellor an idiot.

[QuesnayJr]

At this point you're just openly shilling for the CCP. The CCP killed millions of people through incompetence, and then they had the brilliant idea of copying the exact development model of the Asian Tigers. It's their previous incompetence that's the reason that they haven't already caught up with South Korea.

[amrit3128]

Millions? Please. CCP as it's now was created after reforms by Deng. Most people died due to Mao. CCP back then was only Mao loyalists. CCP endorsed Mao only to gain public legitimacy as the ruling party, since back then China was still a poor country prone to revolts and extremist ideas.

[leereeves]

> CCP as it's now was created after reforms by Deng.

Their policies changed, so they're no longer responsible for their own history?

[graemep]

> The CCP is the same government responsible for lifting historically unprecedented numbers of people out of abject poverty.

The CCP also put most of those people into such abject poverty from the 50s onwards. They give up on communism and thereby reversed the problems caused by communism like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

[holoduke]

The CCP now has proved a 'better' system than the western 'democracy' that is in many ways at the end of its life.

[QuesnayJr]

Both systems are at end-of-life. If anything, China is closer to the end. The total fertility rate in China is down to 1, while the US is 1.62.

[coldtea]

It's as if the introduction of market capitalism and consumerism into a country craters the fertility rate and dooms it!

[graemep]

> Didn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?

A lot of that was the result of stopping doing the damage they had done in previous five decades that resulted in such a high proportion of their population living in poverty.

[fragmede]

For bringing people out of poverty, they had laminated placards attached to the doors of people who were poor, and the name of the government official who was responsible for lifting that family out of poverty, and if that government official failed at it, they wouldn't advance in their career.

[20after4]

That's actually kind of brilliant.

[Robotbeat]

Not as much as their East Asian neighbors, who had increasing democracy and fewer deaths to starvation…

[vkou]

Their economy has grown, and continues to grow faster than that of any of their neighbors.

[hmm37]

The Eastern neighbors all also had way more outside funding....

[Scroll_Swe]

>Didn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?

So did the western world.

Ask Poland, the Baltics and East Germany if they want communism back. I'll wait. :)

I am so tired of the praise of China online while condemning the west. Worst part is you probably live in the west.

*Nono, dont reply, just downvote instead :)

[kanbara]

China is not Iron Curtain countries dominated by the USSR. to compare China to Poland has no merit.

China has built high speed rail, a quality universal health care system, and huge tech and mfg sectors. It most certainly is orders of magnitude above East Germany, and not even the same type of socialism.

There are good things about the West and good things about China, it’s not as simple as “our side good”.

[Scroll_Swe]

China is still a dictatorship who massacred its own people despite building high speed rail...

They only got it good when the USA opened relations in the 80s something they never did with Soviet.

China does not have universal health care.

China helps Russia invade Ukraine. That is simple. Unless you like that too?

Also, where do people want to live? North EU. Yet when we keep our lands people call us racist.

[OtomotO]

And the US calls itself a democracy and kills innocent people abroad.

I don't see any merit in these simplistic world views.

The world isn't Lord of the Rings, it's more A Song Of Ice And Fire.

[spunker540]

Can't a democracy vote and agree to kill innocent people abroad? Not sure those things are discordant.

[lmz]

It can. Which probably justifies 9/11 if you see it that way.

[holoduke]

Are you serious? Who is killing thousands abroad and playing corrupt mobster mister policeman in the entire world? Or course China is supporting Russia. It's geopolitics. The west needs enlargement of their influence in Ukraine. Russia doesn't like this. A failing Russia means China is next. Hard to understand? And China does have universal affordable healthcare. Maybe, just maybe you should visit one of the large cities in China. You will be surprised how far ahead they are on so many areas. Infrastructure, cultural, government structures, schools, hospitals and more.

[Scroll_Swe]

>The west needs enlargement of their influence in Ukraine

Okay so you have swallowed the Russia and China propaganda fully. Yes, China has better living conditions now than 20 years ago.

Ukraine is its own country since 1991 and on their own want to move closer to the west, NATO and EU.

Russia invaded Ukraine as Putin is the one who want "enlargement of their influence"

If you think above, how can you blame me in the west for opposing Russia and China? I live in Sweden, we have Kaliningrad with nukes right across us. We had Soviet submarines in our waters in the 80s.

A fallen Ukraine means Russia and Putin and by extension China will invade the Baltics or Poland next. Hard to understand?

Where do you live?

[holoduke]

Ukraine is not an independent country. The entire culture is practically similar to the Russian one. Yes I have lived in Ukraine (Melitopol) for many years. This whole conflict is 100% caused by the west that tries to put a wig between the two nations. By bribing and buying up assets in Ukraine. Starting from around 2012 when western institutions installing puppets in various places. Government and commercial. Don't tell me this is somekind of crap conspiracy. We all know that the west performed these actions many times before. The west is not clean in this war. 100% responsible for this war, killings and destruction .

[jrowen]

Did that comment indicate any condemnation of the west?

What I'm tired of is zero-sum jingoistic nationalism of any kind. Can we just be happy for all of the world to prosper?

edit: I didn't downvote you but it's probably the uncalled-for cynicism.

[faitswulff]

Nationalism is a cancer

[coldtea]

>Ask Poland, the Baltics and East Germany if they want communism back. I'll wait. :)

We could, but don't expect the results to be as clear cut as you think :)

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-...

https://www.economist.com/europe/2017/10/12/many-eastern-eur...

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2009/11/02/end-of-communi...

https://brnodaily.com/2023/11/20/news/poll-17-of-czechs-say-...

https://english.radio.cz/poll-less-25-feel-better-now-under-...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_nostalgia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostalgie

And of course 2026 China is the very opposite of some failing economy, like Eastern Bloc countries have been in 1989.

[oneshtein]

Many eastern europeans who had good life in soviet block have nostalgia, however, Ukraine fights with all it power to prevent returning back to soviet block, because majority have very unpleasant memories of soviet times and dozens of millions murdered by soviets.

[orthoxerox]

Ukrainians were the Soviets. It's like Scotland complaining about British colonial policy.

[oneshtein]

Ukraine broke out of Russian Empire and then conquered back by Red army, then conquered Republics of Ukraine and Belarus together with Russian Federation formed USSR.

So, yes, Ukrainian communists were with those soviets, who murdered other Ukrainians (and other enslaved nations), and then their siblings have nostalgia about «good times».

[graemep]

That is not a good analogy. Scotland voluntarily formed a union with the rest of the UK and played a disproportionate role in colonialism. Ireland would be a better one.

The weakness in the GP's argument is that Russia is not the Soviet Union, nor is it communist.

[simplisticelk]

Yes, their system has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty, but government policy is now making Chinese consumers poorer than they otherwise would be in order to support domestic industry. It seem’s to be for geo-strategic reasons rather than in the interests of the Chinese people, it’s also probably unsustainable.

[shunia_huang]

WOW the classic yes...but..., where's these statement coming from? I'm Chinese and I don't get the point here at all, you guys seem living in vacuum with biased news, and know much much better than we people living here, that's really confusing everytime I see/read comments lie this.

China now is open freely for almost everyone, come and see by yourslef, if you not living poverty.

The world itslef does not work the propaganda way whether you dislike or hate the gov for whatever reason. And yes you can criticize the gov as you like with the news you read otr the party you pro with, but never assume how the people feel and belives if you are not the people, and if you do then that's the same mindset as Trump or any other war-bringing president the US had, and you know what they did and still doing.

[AuthorizedCust]

Tell your neighbors, friends, and government bureaucrats about the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre.

Let me know how that goes.

[holoduke]

Is that all you can find? Pretty empty list. I can probably create a long list of atrocities done by the west last 5 years alone.

[graemep]

That is the point. You can create the list openly and without fear.

You can create a long list of Chinese atrocities, but mentioning even one will get you into a lot of trouble.

[coldtea]

Probably about as well a if you told them about ICE. Or if you complained against the war at Kent state university.

[killerpopiller]

China interns a million Uigurians and other people with beliefs.

[vkou]

> government policy is now making Chinese consumers poorer than they otherwise would be

Right, that sort of thing never happens over here. We don't give the rich tax breaks while robbing the middle class (and saddling it with mountains of debt that will be coming due in their future), we don't print money hand over fist to fund idiotic wars and other vanity projects, and we don't do everything in our power to prevent workers from organizing for higher wages and better working conditions.

Congress and the executive is hard at work to make the American consumer richer than they otherwise would be. Everything they do is with that goal solely in their minds. It's all they live for, not for making their backers and friends richer and more untouchable.

[QuesnayJr]

If governments introduced a whataboutism sin tax, they could solve budget deficits overnight.

[vkou]

Let's look at the thread of discussion.

> Assertion that China has brought incredible prosperity to its people.

> Complaint that actually, China's economic policies that brought that prosperity are... Structurally robbing its working class.

> Observation that America, which, presumably, is the model for the best, most evolved, and un-improvable structure for its economy is also structurally robbing its working class, with no roadmap for course-correction from it. (And it's doing it for purposes that are not exactly developing the nation!)

> "That's Whataboutism!"

The complaint in #2 is only relevant as a relative comparison. China's economics structurally rob its working class? Okay, let's all agree that's the case - but rob it compared to what? The unchecked late-stage corporatism that we're practicing? The excesses of the industrial revolution in past centuries? It's bad compared to what, exactly? Some idealized strawman utopia, where no economic planning or monetary policy or deficit spending or consolidation of economic power exists? Do you have a roadmap for getting to that one?

The observation in #3 incredibly relevant. If you're not making a relative comparison of China's economy, you need to make an absolute analysis of it... And on an absolute analysis, it has done an incredible job of lifting hundreds of millions of people out of crushing poverty, and into first-world lifestyles, in only a few decades. All the central planning - control of its exchange rates, its monetary and debt and lending policy, it's focus on exports and fundamentals and R&D and education is exactly what has brought that prosperity about.

Meanwhile, the only thing our central planners, here at home are good at figuring out [1] is how to widen the gap between the haves, and the have-nots.

---

[1] I am being a bit too harsh, the Fed does a good job given its mandate.

[thephyber]

> but government policy is now making Chinese consumers poorer than they otherwise would be

What country has perfect government policy?

The US has atrocious government policies. Costs of college, cost of healthcare insurance, the reason so many uninsured people use the ER as their primary medical usage, tax policy prioritization of capital reinvestment over wage earnings, caring for the environment over affordable housing, etc are all problematic policy outcomes which make the average person poorer.

They are also unsustainable.