[rythie]

It’s been long enough that people of forgotten what’s it’s like. Cameras still have replaceable batteries, there are several benefits:

I can have two (or more) batteries, if it runs out I just change it. I don’t need walk around with a USB battery pack and cable hanging off the device preventing me from using it properly.

I can put the battery on charge somewhere and leave it, even if not completely secure, because just the battery not the device. This way my expensive device and my data is not at risk.

I can use 40+ year old cameras, because I can just put a new battery in. This is not something you can do with newer device, e.g. and iPod and you can’t even find anyone who will fit them for the older models.

Battery tech moves on. There are now some batteries with charging ports on them. Other batteries offer more capacity than the original ones. Apple even did this once for me, when MacBook Air batteries were fairly easy to replace, I had mine replaced (it wore out) at the shop and they put a slightly bigger one in, which was the standard on the newer models.

[cyberrock]

The final law just makes replacing batteries more accessible (i.e. no glue or special screws), but it doesn't mandate battery packs. Also some devices like hearing aids are exempt.

I question whether battery packs would be a good thing to bring back now. USB power banks have 100% interchangeability among many device classes, which is something that not even dry cell batteries achieved. I can choose to leave the house with or without a power bank and just rent one in my city (YMMV). Modern charging wattages are high enough that I don't miss shutting down my Nexus, changing the pack, then rebooting.

It's tempting to say that this could be solved if battery sizes were standardized, but that would inevitably limit device dimensions. For example, I especially loathe how the 18650 has made almost all modern flashlights clunky. I would hate it if Apple pushes for a 4.5mm thick battery standard to kill all foldables because they don't want to enter the market and cannibalize their iPad demand.

[HenrikB]

Agree - I read this as it will be easy to replace the battery when it reaches its end of life and no longer can hold my charge. It will still take time to replace it, but that's okay since it'll only be done once every few years. It's not meant to re-introduce swappable battery packs, so you won't be able to carry spares on long trips etc.

[b112]

You will when people sell mods for phones, such as a replacement back wth easy access.

Or when phone manufacturers realise they may as well do so, at least on some models, because why not. And yes, the battery compartment can be waterproof with a rubber seal... but even so? Many would prefer battery swap to full waterproof, if that was the cost.

[usrusr]

The trade-off between having the field-swappability feature and going the lean way (it's not just cheaper, also smaller, lighter, less to go wrong) shifts though: when regulation forces companies to go 20% of the way towards field swappability, more will take the bet that there might be a niche worth serving at the 100% mark.

I still would not expect this to happen for mainstream phones, but other devices? There will more field swappability with the regulation that enforces layman replaceability then without.

[Cthulhu_]

This is about extending the lifetime of a phone - it won't work properly, even with a powerbank, if the battery is EOL.

The objective is to reduce e-waste, where phones whose only issue is the battery ends up in the trash / recycling, instead of continuing to be useful.

[cryptonym]

It also makes recycling much easier.

[Alpha3031]

Isn't Apple supposedly entering the market this year though? By the time any regulations has passed, they'd probably already be established. Though I agree I don't really see too much point in making batteries quick-swappable rather than just easily swappable as you say considering it's unlikely to be a true hot-swap without requiring a power cycle.

[Zak]

There are standardized sizes for cylindrical Li-ion cells, and that's often what's inside battery packs. The majority of current mirrorless cameras, for example use battery packs that have two 18500 cells inside, but no two brands have compatible batteries. There are only bad reasons for the lack of compatibility.

I'd be happy if everything sized for it took standardized cylindrical Li-ion cells with protection circuits stuck on the ends. That's common for flashlights and rare for everything else.

[KingMachiavelli]

I don't think this is where peak battery tech ends up. At current capacities, batteries are becoming genuinely dangerous, and faster charging only amplifies the risk. Charging high-capacity cells outside a temperature-controlled charger is risky, and even reputable chargers shouldn't be left unattended — many workplaces ban it outright (it only takes one fire to make that policy). Phone batteries are the worst of it: highest power density, fastest charging, odd geometry, and tight space constraints. Manufacturers shrink the phone by offloading temperature monitoring and heat dissipation onto the phone's own electronics and housing — so replaceable, externally rechargeable batteries are tricky to design. IMO, swappable batteries were a feature because batteries used to suck. In less volume-constrained devices like cameras, swappable batteries still work — but you're trading single-charge runtime for that convenience.

This last point is actually a real killer, an easily swappable battery in a phone probably sacrifices >10% "maximum" capacity in lost space. e.g a phone with a glued battery can have 5000mAh but the same phone with a more durable battery connector can only be 4500mAh.

[theshrike79]

It's the exact same as with EVs.

We COULD have an EV with a 200kWh battery that can go 1000km++ on a charge in -30C weather. But nobody really needs that beyond a few outliers.

What we NEED is ubiquitous and easy charging.

Going for a burger, it'll take 20 minutes for you to order, eat and walk out. On a 300kW charger in the parking lot you can in theory get up to 100kWh charged. Or less with a slower one. Even plugging in to a 50kW charger for 20 minutes is enough.

Same with shopping etc, giving "everyone" a 2kW charger in a parking lot is table stakes in 2026.

And with phones: just have the possilibity of charging everywhere. I have 13€ Ikea Qi2 ("Magsafe") compatible chargers[0] everywhere in the house. Anyone can just slap their phone on one and it'll charge a bit.

There's no reason why we can't have more of those in public - we did try when wireless charging first appeared, but it was a whole chicken and egg thing. Nobody had phones that supported it and finding the exact 1x1cm spot where the phone charges was a pain. Qi2 with the alignment magnets takes that problem away completely.

[0] https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/vaestmaerke-wireless-charging-s...

[cogman10]

Yeah, ubiquitous slow charging stations more than anything else is really what's needed to make EVs practical for everyone.

They can be ubiquitous for anyone that owns a home which takes a large load off the need for public infrastructure. Adding more L2 chargers and even L1 chargers could easily cover anyone in apartments. And even if there's not quite enough, L3 chargers can quickly cover any gaps if you start running low and couldn't get a spot with a charger.

I think there is a too much focus on L3 chargers in general. For the cost of a single L3 charging station you can put in multiples of L1 and L2 chargers.

[brianwawok]

But why put charges at burger shacks? For most people most of the time charge while you sleep. On trips charge along the highway. Every single store doesn’t need chargers, it’s a waste.

[throw0101d]

> For most people most of the time charge while you sleep.

Unless you're a 'garage orphan': no garage, driveway or parking pad, and have to park on the street.

* https://electricautonomy.ca/news/2019-06-24/solving-the-elec...

* https://www.theenergymix.com/garage-orphans-scramble-for-cha...

Apartments (either rental, or condo ownership) may have underground parking with a few slots for charging.

[Kirby64]

Apartments are rather ideal for charging, if the infrastructure could be planned for. Parking spaces with restricted access... basically ideal for having every space with a charger.

That basically leaves street parking as the last problem child, and that could be solved with lamp chargers like they do in the UK. It's all possible, it's just a matter of will in my view.

[throw0101d]

> Parking spaces with restricted access... basically ideal for having every space with a charger.

Assuming that the landlord (or condo corp/HOA) is willing to pay for the infrastructure upgrades. Also assuming there is electrical capacity.

* https://www.metroev.ca/blog/ev-charger-load-management

[numpad0]

There are reasons for burger shacks to NOT have chargers, for EVs and phones alike: restaurants make money by maximizing customer throughput. Excuses for customers to extend stays is damaging to them.

There are other types of businesses, such as high end restaurants and furniture stores, that benefit from customers extending times in the store. Burger shops aren't one of those.

[theshrike79]

You don't own an EV do you?

I've literally driven past restaurants on road trips because there was nowhere to charge close by.

It's not whether I stay for a long time or not, it's whether I come in AT ALL. The map on my car shows be both restaurants and chargers, as do many EV-specific charging map apps. I just filter by "food+charging" and the rest might as well not exist for me.

Similarly I have family and friends with serious food allergies: If the restaurant isn't disclosing allergens in their menu up front and says "ask the staff", we go somewhere else instead of playing 20 questions with the waiter after parking and getting seated - and then discovering they have no idea what "actually gluten free" means.

And you don't charge an EV to 100% every time you stop, it's basic chemistry and physics. The last 20% takes as long to charge as the first 80%. A 20 minute stop at a burger shack's 300kW charger will easily give a modern EV tens of percent of extra charge (100km+) while people eat.

[LordDragonfang]

"Most people" with EVs charge while they sleep, because right now it doesn't make as much sense to buy an EV if you're in the actual majority that does not have access to a garage you can install a charger in. That fact is one of the major things slowing EV adoption.

[sehansen]

Those of us who live in apartments and charge our BEVs with public chargers also mostly charge while we sleep. If your battery is large enough for a week or two of normal use, leaving the car in a public AC charger overnight when you get down to 10% charge left is by far the easiest. And AC chargers are generally also cheaper than DC chargers.

[theshrike79]

I charge at the school across the street, it's a 3 minute walk from there to my house.

Granted, it's a tiny bit of a hassle compared to before when I had a charger at my parking spot - but not a massive issue. Mostly the problems come from people parking their ICE cars in front of the chargers because they're too lazy to find a parking spot.

[theshrike79]

You do know that people travel? I don’t need to charge when I’m in my home town, I can do that at home.

But when I’m travelling I’d rather charge a bit every time I stop rather than have one loong stop just to charge.

And I’m not talking about Joe’s Shack that has like 1.8 parking spots. More like McD or BK.

[8note]

> e.g a phone with a glued battery can have 5000mAh but the same phone with a more durable battery connector can only be 4500mAh.

alternatively, i can trade more bulk for more battery. if its got a connector, why cant i put a bigger batter in the slot that sticks out?

[numpad0]

That brings back memories! Yes, many devices before iPhone had normalized internal batteries indeed had aftermarket extended batteries. They would come with matching bulged back covers to fit the significantly oversized battery.

[golem14]

That's true even today for HAM radio handhelds. There is a cottage industry of ever larger snap on batteries for Baofengs and others. Very handy.

Random thought: Maybe Apple should use radioisotope batteries to never have to change them, ever. I jest.

[TeMPOraL]

> Maybe Apple should use radioisotope batteries to never have to change them, ever. I jest.

They could make an RTG battery out of Promethium-147, a beta-emitter with half-life of 2.6 years and history of use in nuclear batteries, or Iron-55, an x-ray source with similar half-life. That would be perfect and totally on-brand for Apple, as the battery would naturally force the phone to be replaced in 3 years, and they'd have a solid safety/security justification for why any repair or replacement must be done in authorized Apple stores, by authorized personnel, with authorized parts and equipment. In a store where you could, oh so conveniently, just buy a new iPhone.

[hdgvhicv]

My early iPhones had external battery cases, which even when attached (when travelling a long distance) were smaller than modern iPhones in the important dimensions.

[tracker1]

And it was pretty great... No to mention the shell swaps, etc...

[Oxodao]

Thinkpad T480, with dual battery was a really great idea

[cogman10]

The main thing that makes all this hard to do is the form factor.

Give these phone batteries a standard geometry and interface and pretty much all these problems immediately go away. 3 prongs on the battery (ground, positive, data). A standard protocol so the battery can communicate things like SOC or acceptable charge rate with the charger. And viola, you are off to the races.

Yes, this will mean manufacturers will have a hard limit on how thin they can make their phones and a constraint on what designs they can employ.

[lwhi]

Ultimately the main benefit obtained from not allowing battery replacement, is an increase in sales of newer models.

While your reasoning has _some_ merit, it reads as an apologia for the status quo .. rather than an example of why we should prevent easy battery replacement.

[audunw]

The danger of batteries doesn’t have much to do with their capacity. Many solid state batteries are far safer than liquid electrolyte ones, while also having higher energy density.

[dzhiurgis]

Slop

[thelastgallon]

We don't need fast charging. Phones will be left on wireless charging surfaces, which will eventually be ubiquitous. Everyone hates usb-c plug in. Just leave it on a surface, pick it whenever you want.

We don't need to fast charge anything, phones or EVs. Slow charging preserves battery life and smart charging will charge whenever it is cheapest.

[Oxodao]

I've never seen anyone hate usb-c, what world do you live in? And on phones fast-charging's cost on the battery life expectancy is negligible[0]

Also, wireless charging is finicky and comes at a cost: way less efficient energy transfer.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLS5Cg_yNdM

[sham1]

Well hatered for USB-C for charging connectors seems to be strong in this thread alongside the dislike for being able to have changeable batteries.

Hell, this thread even has a person whose argument against USB-C is that mandating it will mean that the EU will get conquered by Russia.

[fingerlocks]

I hate USB-C. Hi. I do a lot of woodworking and the port easily clogs with sawdust and lint. It was very easy to clean it each day when I had a lightning connector, a common toothpick would suffice.

Now I have to purchase specialized non-marring micro tool scrapers to clean the port without damaging it. The scrapers break after a few cleanings, so this is an ongoing monthly recurring cost. Yeah I can charge wirelessly, but I still don’t want sawdust in my phone hole after a day of ripping wood.

[Oxodao]

Finally someone with an argument. I do hear why you dislike it, most people seems to do it without any reason... As it was said by someone else you might be able to cover it up somehow, either a rubber plug, or 3d print a small strip of plastic and put it in your case.

[nmcfarl]

I do ranch work in a place with a lot of iron in the soil. I often have these sand sized grains of dirt in my port. But I had it in a lightning days as well. I just hate ports.

Before MagSafe, this used to kill phones. Now my son has a phone without a port, but it’s not dead.

[Oxodao]

Those ports are most of the time, at least in the android land IDK about iphone, on daughter boards and easy to replace. Even though in a perfect world this should not happen, still it is possible to do without too much of a hastle

[Kirby64]

This seems like the ideal use case for those 'rugged' phone cases with flaps over the ports, no? Not ideal, but certainly a lot easier than having to clean gunk out of the port constantly.

[pshirshov]

why not to buy a rubber usb-c plug?

[jononor]

Yep that is annoying. There are USB-C magnetic charge adapters. It will prevent shit from getting into the slot, and easy to charge magsafe style. And of course you can easily take it out temporarily to use a standard USBC charging cable.

[numpad0]

Put the cap on it. Or get a phone with inbuilt flappy caps. True rugged phones all have them.

[eqvinox]

Toothpicks work great for this if you narrow them a bit with a knife.

As a woodworker I'm surprised you didn't have that idea :D

(Like, c'mon, toothpicks aren't immutable objects that fall out of question just because they're a bit too large)

[fingerlocks]

huh, when I make em thin it's too flimsy to get the packed sawdust out. Maybe I need to get some premium hickory toothpicks

[bmicraft]

Charging a 5Ah phone empty to full every day of the year adds up to all of about 7kWh. Nobody cares if you shave off a couple cents per year if the experience is worse.

[thelastgallon]

But slow charging will preserve the battery life a lot longer, which is more important.

[Zak]

Wireless charging, on the other hand generates heat, which is bad for the battery.

Slow, wired charging is the best combination for battery service life. A basic 5-10W power supply when the phone is going to be plugged in overnight is a universal method to achieve that; AccA on a rooted Android device with suitable hardware allows fine-grained control in software.

Even more important is to avoid charging the battery to full. The higher the voltage, the quicker it wears out.

[bko]

The fact that pretty much no phones have a replaceable battery says something. And it doesn't mean that all manufacturers are somehow colluding with each. The market is very competitive and pretty much every manufacturer decided the trade offs are not worth the benefit. If Samsung or Xiaomi or Google could sell you a better phone with a replaceable battery, they would. But everyone came to the conclusion that the trade off is just not worth it. And now the EU, in its infinite wisdom has decided it knows whats best.

If it's such a superior product that people want despite the tradeoffs, why don't they just fund a company to create such a phone? Why doesn't anyone?

[bigfishrunning]

Because people will buy that phone and keep it much longer. When phones had replaceable batteries, they needed replaced after a couple of years because they were terrible. I'm now on a several year old pixel phone that I'm happy with, but eventually the battery will wear out and I'll have to replace it. Google likes it that way.

[wallst07]

I have a few IOS devices, you know what prevents me from using them?

It's not the battery, its the lack of OS updates. I can't install new certificates, or get access to app stores. They're useless.

In fact, the lack of a replacement battery has never prevented me from keeping something working, only software or physical damage.

[eru]

Battery tech has gotten a lot better every year over the last hundred years.

[brewdad]

I think OP meant the phone was going to be replaced in three years tops, so no one cared much about battery longevity. Nowadays, the battery can be the constraint for practical phone life, since few consumers can replace one themselves and by the time they pay someone else to do it, may as well trade it in and let Verizon subsidize a new one.

Having an easily swappable battery returns some power to the user.

[eru]

Phones with swappable batteries are already legal to buy.

[ben_w]

It was legal to buy a car that had a seatbelt before the seatbelt became mandatory.

Or phones with USB-C.

I suspect this will be a good thing to force, but I don't know for sure.

[watwut]

Their still go down after two-three years. Needing to charge twice a day is literal reason why I ever change the phone - otherwise I could use 10 years old one.

[nick486]

You don't have to replace the phone. You can go to some repair shop and get the battery replaced. It will be several times cheaper than a new phone.

Very few people do that. I don't. Because a) general software enshittification makes me need a more powerful decice anyway, and, more importantly, b) people are just happy to have an excuse to get the the new shiny.

[bigfishrunning]

Every time a small device like a cell phone or watch or camera or etc gets opened and worked on, they never come back the same. Waterproof seals get broken, parts get misaligned, heat doesn't sink properly, etc. You can extend the life of these devices with repairs sometimes, but they tend to limp along.

[choo-t]

> You don't have to replace the phone. You can go to some repair shop and get the battery replaced. It will be several times cheaper than a new phone.

Still way more expensive than swapping a battery pack, and this mean leaving your phone to a stranger for a few hours or maybe a day if the shop is really busy. Anything that add friction to changing battery will help sell new phone.

[deaux]

I do it.

> a) general software enshittification makes me need a more powerful decice anyway

You don't, this is nothing but an excuse for

> b) people are just happy to have an excuse to get the the new shiny.

[nick486]

Nah, sorry, enshittification is not "just an excuse". My current 2020 phone(xperia 5-ii - I wanted that sd slot&jack) is noticeably slower than when I got it, even though the battery is holding up decently(it basically needs to last a day, and it usually does). Software shops seem to get focused on testing their stuff on "modern" devices. It looks like, once your device starts to slip out of that "testing pool", things get increasingly buggy until it eventually makes general use enough of a pain to require replacement.

I think last couple years' improvements to battery tech made software take over batteries as the bigger contributor to device obsolescence.

So this change, while welcome, is a bit late.

[kakacik]

I have 4+ years old S22 Ultra and there is absolutely nothing slowed down. I didn't install any crap semi-random apps just for the lolz, its basically static set of features with maybe 2 new apps per year added as it keeps doing more and more like ebanking or work auth. It doesn't even have Snapdragon processor, just their own Exynos and its simply fine.

It keeps getting all updates and will keep for few more years.

Camera results massively improved cca 2 years ago with some update so that they are cca on same level as current ones. Plus I still has 10x physical zoom which trumps all current models, iphone pro max including since we still can't bypass physical limits of optics.

Really, 0 reasons to update and battery capacity is the only upcoming issue - still fine now but I feel the decrease a bit. If I could swap it easily myself without paying some phone shop to do it, that's a massive advantage.

[TeMPOraL]

There's flash degradation that's unfortunately a factor, too. If not for that and thermal problems (which I learned were common in this model), I'd probably be still using my S22.

(OTOH, I upgraded to a foldable, and don't want to ever use a regular candybar phone ever again.)

[preisschild]

I have been using the Pixel series for years and after a year of use the battery capacity is noticeable worse for me.

I'd just like to pay 100-300EUR to replace the battery with a brand new one but the device should still be IP68 water-"proof".

[frm88]

Fairphone exists. The batteries are easily replaceable, they have a video on their website. It's no thicker than many other phones, runs on non Google OS, maybe just check it out. I have one and am totally satisfied with it.

https://www.fairphone.com/the-fairphone-gen-6-e-operating-sy...

[Nasrudith]

I support changeable batteries as a 'no duh' feature. But when I checked out Fairphone previously (several years ago when I was phone shopping) and personally found it as 'neat concept, but a shame it seems to have been born obsolete' and lacked some of the hardware features I was looking for.

If it works for you, great though.

[cataphract]

I don't think the objective is to make it a "superior product" in the somewhat circular way you're defining it (i.e., the market equilibrium that we settled on). It's one of several measures to try to have people keep their phones for longer and cut e-waste.

[trinsic2]

Also Products aren't being designed for individuals anymore. There being designed to maximize for ad revenue, we're the product.

If there is any incentive to make a product better is to make it more accessible to their first party customers.

[dzhiurgis]

I think it’s far more likely to introduce additional dead batteries into existing waste. Probably drop in an ocean given how much batteries are already dumped.

[bko]

Slow down innovation is certainly one way to have people keep their phones longer and cut e-waste. Imagine if they allowed air conditioners...

[cataphract]

Do you think fuel efficiency or emission standards "slowed down innovation"? They brought a huge amount of innovation: lighter materials, better aerodynamics, higher compression ratios, direct injection, better mixture control, etc.

There will still be innovation; the solutions will just have satisfy the new parameters.

[eru]

Yes, they definitely slowed down innovation and decreased consumer surplus compared to the counterfactual of just taxing the behaviour you don't like (like taxing fuel or emissions).

[thrownthatway]

They tax the fuel as well, don’t you worry.

[dzhiurgis]

And then when EVs become viable they went - naaaah look at those efficient diesels!!

[thrownthatway]

To a degree.

You can’t have infinitely improving standards for an infinite time, otherwise you end up with bullshit like Dieselgate, and ecotechnocrats forcing everyone to drive around in mobile inextinguishable incendiary devices.

[thfuran]

ICE cars catch fire at a far higher rate than BEVs.

[Levitz]

...You think air conditioners are forbidden in Europe...?

[tsss]

Yes. Here in Hamburg you have to pay some useless consultant to come to your house and check that there's no other way to decrease the temperature before you are allowed to install one.

You are also not allowed to but your bicycle in the garage.

[heavyset_go]

> If it's such a superior product that people want despite the tradeoffs, why don't they just fund a company to create such a phone? Why doesn't anyone?

Because legislation is direct and gives better results to consumers. Thank god the EU standardized on USB-C.

There's no reason to jump through extra hoops and rely on the whims of investors to do something good for the people.

[jpfromlondon]

>Thank god the EU standardized on USB-C

Short term thinking, if anyone invents a significantly better connector the eu will lag a decade while they clear the red tape, it hampers innovation inside the bloc people who might otherwise be concocting their own improved connector.

[lxgr]

> it hampers innovation inside the bloc people who might otherwise be concocting their own improved connector.

You know what, I'm absolutely fine with that.

I still remember when every single manufacturer had their own shitty 10-30 pin connector that effectively did the exact same thing: Transfer some current, analog audio, and some USB data. It was absolutely not worth the mutual incompatibility (you'd actually have to always carry your own charger and could not borrow one).

If some amazing new technology comes around that needs more than 240W charging or 80 Gbit/s data transfer to smartphones and can't be retrofitted into the USB-C form factor, let's take the time to change the law.

> if anyone invents a significantly better connector the eu will lag a decade while they clear the red tape

You seem to be misremembering how it actually played out: We didn't end up with the EU stranded on some standard, quite the opposite: The EU effectively forced Apple (the last non-negligible non-USB-C holdout) to switch to USB-C globally.

[ben_w]

(1) The EU fundamentally didn't care which standard so long as there was one; they only forced this because Apple dragged their feet with their own proprietary thing that wasn't a significant advantage. The other end of Apple's Lightning port being a USB port does not suggest it added anything except deliberate incompatibility.

(2) what would "significantly better" even look like? USB-C can do 120 watts, enough to fill a 20 Wh battery in 10 minutes, except the batteries themselves aren't ready to charge that fast.

(3) if someone somehow manages to make a significant advance, nothing prevents them from having two ports. Or indeed lobbying for a law change on the basis of a tangible thing they can demonstrate rather than a hypothetical that still hasn't happened in all the time since these discussions began.

[okanat]

(4) Or just as the law states, you can update the regulation accordingly. There are avenues of update just in the law. The connector should be just modern enough. At the same time I do believe thermodynamics itself will be the limit and 120 W is more than enough for any phone.

[ssl-3]

The same Europeans that were miles ahead with their GSM standard?

We can compare that to the US. Here, we stayed stuck with power-thirsty analog phones for many years before bouncing through a litany of mutually-incompatible digital non-standards...and finally landed on the ~same actual-standards that Europe adopted.

I think they'll be OK. (I think the rest of us will be OK, too.)

[BenFranklin100]

With that attitude, we’d still be using D-sub connectors.

[tossaway0]

I assume OP thinks more like me: the EU will move to the next standard in a reasonable amount of time after it's available.

I'll be the first to complain if the new standard isn't adopted in due time, but as a strong example I'm still very content with how the GSM legislation standard has played out.

[BenFranklin100]

You miss my point. The ‘new standard’ will be settled on by various committees each composed of different people with different priorities including maintaining the status quo. It will take years to potentially decades to settle on any technologically superior alternatives.

Design by committee is how Europe works. It’s also a reason Europe moves slower and is less innovative than America.

[okanat]

Europe is not less innovative. Many advanced machinery that makes everything else originate and get perfected in Europe.

EU is way more efficient in making citizen-friendly laws too.

The USA just likes to splurge unnecessary amount of money and call that "innovation" where there isn't any. They can do that because they have lots of money and infinite debt limit due to US Dollar's special status. This also makes everything else expensive for other players in the world. Remove the special status and see how the worlds change.

[account42]

D-sub connectors are still pretty common in embedded applications.

[eru]

What does any deity have to do with it? Btw, has anyone done a post mortem analysis of that mandate? I wonder if it delivered what it promised. I doubt it:

All they saved consumers from is buying a 5 dollar replacement cable.

The EU certainly hasn't done such an assessment yet.

The predicted savings of a quarter billion Euro come mostly from unbundling chargers, which they could have forced down customers throats without also making technical mandates about how customers are allowed to charge.

[clownpenis_fart]

Unbundling charger without standardizing the connectors would result in every manufacturer using their own proprietary bespoke charging connectors. Which is exactly what the situation was before usb was made mandatory.

How much cool aid do you have to drink to genuinely believe the corporate argument that using proprietary connectors is "innovative"?

[eru]

> Unbundling charger without standardizing the connectors would result in every manufacturer using their own proprietary bespoke charging connectors. Which is exactly what the situation was before usb was made mandatory.

Eh, no? USB-C was already pretty much the standard before, and you could plug in lightning cable with a cheap adapter cable.

[thrownthatway]

Not even that.

Consumers still need to buy replacement cables, because they break.

And the USB-C cable end connector is a fragile piece of shit designed by committee and forced upon everyone buy another committee, neither of which must’ve had a single mechanic engineer even once walk passed their bike shed.

Future historians will do a postmortem on the EU and discover the USB-C enforcement act as an inflection point that marked the downer trend to the EU’s eventual collapse, and the reclamation of its land and people to the great nation of Russia, where it always belonged.

Or some other equally as dreadful outcome befitting the UBS-C Bike Shed & Enforcement Committee formerly know as the European Union.

[sham1]

> Not even that. > > Consumers still need to buy replacement cables, because they break. > > And the USB-C cable end connector is a fragile piece of shit designed by committee and forced upon everyone buy another committee, neither of which must’ve had a single mechanic engineer even once walk passed their bike shed.

Well, the USB committee did ask Apple for the superior connector, but for whatever reason they said no. So we're stuck with this.

OTOH, USB-C is not nearly as bad as your bizarre post would seem to imply. It could be better, but as we know from experience with things like micro-USB, it could be much, much worse.

> Future historians will do a postmortem on the EU and discover the USB-C enforcement act as an inflection point that marked the downer trend to the EU’s eventual collapse, and the reclamation of its land and people to the great nation of Russia, where it always belonged. > > Or some other equally as dreadful outcome befitting the UBS-C Bike Shed & Enforcement Committee formerly know as the European Union.

Russia can't even handle Ukraine, a country significantly smaller in population, economy, and land area than Russia. And you think that they could take on the EU‽ A block, mind you, which has more population and a significantly larger economy. Oh, also nukes.

And you think that the EU would fall in this case because of... USB-C? Please explain the mechanism which would lead to this situation.

[eru]

> Well, the USB committee did ask Apple for the superior connector, but for whatever reason they said no. So we're stuck with this.

They didn't need to ban all other connectors..

[fl4regun]

I don't understand your issue with USB C. Mini and micro USB connectors routinely got loose and fell out of multiple devices I owned, USB C is everywhere now and I have not encountered such issues.

[account42]

The only issue I had with USB C has been lint collecting at the bottom of the port that would then prevent the cable from plugging in far enough for a good connection. Far easier to clean that than replacing the connector though.

[thrownthatway]

The Lighnting connector and its port are superior in every way.

[eru]

I don't mind USB-C. Most of my devices have USB-C charging, and it works well.

I mind bureaucrats locking that in.

> Future historians will do a postmortem on the EU and discover the USB-C enforcement act as an inflection point that marked the downer trend to the EU’s eventual collapse, and the reclamation of its land and people to the great nation of Russia, where it always belonged.

Haha, what? I like to complain about this piece of legislation, but it's not that important. And it's not like Russia has better policy. Oh, just the opposite. (Like waging wars they can't win, or running crazy high corruption.)

[thrownthatway]

Thanks for decontextualising that paragraph by not including the following paragraph.

I really appreciate it, keep up with the good work.

Bloody Clippers.

You always got to watch out for the Clippers, they’ll take whatever you say or write and clip it out of context and make it mean something completely different to what you really said.

The European Union will fall to Russia while they're looking for a USB-C charge cable that works, or looking for a charged swappable battery for their MANPADs.

[someperson]

It means that everybody copies Apple.

Just like 3.5mm headphone jacks and MicroSD card expandable storage.

They're hard to find even on lower end devices any more, despite more ports being a premium/pro feature in other market segments.

[aikinai]

That doesn't change anything the parent said. If not copying Apple created a better product that people want to buy, someone would be doing it.

[ACow_Adonis]

Because I don't have a few billion dollars in my back pocket and even if I did, planned obsolescence and dark patterns are infinitely more profitable thus regulation is needed to achieve consumer positive outcomes?

[watwut]

> If Samsung or Xiaomi or Google could sell you a better phone with a replaceable battery, they would.

I do not think they are colluding, but they are definitely chasing the same trends and users preferences don't seem to play that much role, unless it is one of the few essentials things. Effectively, users do not have much choice except in few areas. All phones being the same is not just because "everyone likes their phones to be unpractically huge or slow" .

[Oxodao]

The trade-off is basically having a thicker phone. Nobody except apple thus all manufacturers 6 month later want paper-thin phones. Never the actual consumers.

[Oxodao]

customer*

[account42]

No, the consumer is no longer the customer these days. The customer are the advertisement companies.

[friendzis]

1. It's easier to design and build Ingress Protection without user-accessible compartments.

2. There's a lot of tech on the back: NFC, wireless charging, structurally important [magnetic] attachment points. Ensuring electric contact and physical strength on a door is again hard and expensive or all that tech has to live on the battery.

3. Design. A glass-like openable door is going to be extremely failure prone.

4. Compatibility. You can't guarantee quality of 3rd party batteries, even more so if the tech is in the battery pack.

5. Planned obsolescence. Let's not kid ourselves, encouraging replacing the whole phone is good for business.

[account42]

All it says is that thinner phones look better on advertisements. Let's not pretend that product decisions are the rational best result for the market even if they are industry-standard.

[Rury]

Does it really say something? If so what? I think the assumption that suppliers are always just catering to whatever the market demands is dubious at best. In uncompetitive markets with strong moats and price inelasticity, there's no need to cater the demands of market, the market must cater to the supplier's demands. And since markets tend to collapse into a few main stakeholders, markets eventually end up this way, rather than the assumed way.

[windward]

Why do you want us to think you don't know what a negative externality is? Do you usually find that you benefit from people thinking you're unworldly?

[everdrive]

Manufacturers are chasing tends. What is superior about the stupid notch at the top of the iPhone and some competitors -- and what is superior about getting phones thinner and wider? They're too big to put in a pocket, you're not even netting anything with all that extra space. etc. The point is that phones are not getting "better" in any material way except maybe for picture quality from the cameras.

[petra]

>> pretty much every manufacturer decided the trade offs are not worth the benefit.

Isn't worth the benefit for who? the manufacturers? sure.

Let's say a single manufacturer decides to offer some phones with a changeable battery, invests in their marketing, and they start becoming very popular. What happens next? Every manufacturer does the same, nobody earn a premium, total sales volume gets cut in half.

[traderj0e]

Yes for batteries, but I do think there are anticompetitive reasons for phones mostly not having headphone jacks anymore. It's not exactly collusion, it's more vertical integration.

[unsungNovelty]

> If it's such a superior product that people want despite the tradeoffs, why don't they just fund a company to create such a phone? Why doesn't anyone?

That wont solve the problem of carbon footprint this is trying to solve? There is still going to be iPhones and samsung phones of the world in EU. And people will buy it. Unless you want EU to go full autocratic and enforce people to use just 1 phone manufacturer!

Last 4 phones I had, 3 was replaced cos of old battery and 1 was due to broken display.

Imagine you not being able to replace the SMPS (Power) in your custom PC even though your ~$2000 worth of hardware which includes GPU, CPU and motherboard is working perfectly fine.

[Ar-Curunir]

Ah yes, “market knows best”.

Perhaps consider that what companies are optimizing for isn’t what is best for consumers, or humanity, or the earth.

[chimprich]

> If Samsung or Xiaomi or Google could sell you a better phone with a replaceable battery, they would.

It's an interesting theory. I'm going to call it capitalist-optimism. It's roughly oppositional to Doctorow's theory of enshittification.

> but everyone came to the conclusion that the trade off is just not worth it

The trade-off here being profit margin versus customer convenience. They've calculated that they'd make more cash with non-changeable batteries (e.g. by encouraging more buying of new devices rather than changing batteries) would make them more cash than selling a phone with a replaceable battery. And they might well be right, but that doesn't make it a good thing for civilisation.

> And now the EU, in its infinite wisdom has decided it knows whats best.

Before the EU mandated USB-c chargers pretty much every phone had their own charger. It was awful. You couldn't easily borrow a charger because everyone had a different configuration.

Now things are far better. It turned out that the EU did know best. It maybe wasn't best for phone manufacturers in the short term, but it was better for customers.

> why don't they just fund a company to create such a phone? Why doesn't anyone?

Is this a serious question? In order to create a competitor to the major smartphone operators you'd need a huge amount of capital. I don't think I could convince a venture capitalist or bank to give me that kind of investment just to start a company selling a phone with a replaceable battery.

[lopis]

> I can use 40+ year old cameras

Sadly, you can't use modern software on 40+ year old computers. You can't even use most apps in 10 year old smartphones.

[userbinator]

and you can’t even find anyone who will fit them for the older models.

I'm quite certain you can find many companies in the far East who will produce cells of exactly the size and shape you want, as long as you're willing to order a minimum quantity. There are also a few semi-standard sizes of prismatic cells available.

That said, having a few truly standard sizes like we had with 1.2/1.5V and 9V batteries would be a good idea. BL-5C and its variants were a de-facto standard for many years too, and apparently are still available new.

[6510]

I tried to find a phone battery once and found very similar looking ones with prices ranging from expensive to terrifying with everything in between. I don't trust the ones that are to cheap as I don't know how they cut the corners. I don't trust the more expensive ones because they look the same. I cant see the profit margins. I was unable to pick one. I ask a guy with a repair store. He said he always buys from the same shop and the badges look different every time.

[svnt]

This is what happens when the market for phone batteries only exists for OEMs who buy millions at a time, custom.

It will stop only when there is a reason for consumer-detectable battery quality indicators — ie non-tech people have a reason to buy them. Which will now be the case with this law.

[iggldiggl]

> This is what happens when the market for phone batteries only exists for OEMs who buy millions at a time, custom.

Even a few years ago when phones with replaceable batteries weren't that rare and I was in possession of one – by the time I started thinking about a battery replacement, offers of original OEM batteries usually seemed to have vanished into thin air and it was having to find out which aftermarket battery seemed reputable enough…

[snowwrestler]

People do forget what it was like. Device battery life was way shorter and the manufacturer was incentivized to keep it that way because it sold more batteries.

Devices all had proprietary batteries. If I had 3 devices on me, I was carrying 3x extra batteries, one+ per device. My Nikon D1H required 5 huge proprietary batteries to cover a day of shooting sports. Plus a battery for my BlackBerry, plus batteries for my headlamp.

Devices were not waterproof except for a few expensive, complicated options. Upsell! My Canon waterproof camera came with a tube of silicon I had to dab on the battery compartment gasket every few times I charged it.

Today devices are lighter, more water resistant, and easier to charge in the field—just bring one power bank. And you often don’t have to power off or stop using the device while it’s charging.

This is not just a phone thing, even headlamps are moving toward a built-in battery for all the reasons above.

[jmholla]

Or device battery life was shorter because we hadn't developed better battery technology or better power management

You talk about the misaligned incentives of replaceable batteries but fail to point out the incentive built-in batteries: need to replace a battery, buy a whole new device.

[rythie]

My points are about what it’s like current with removable batteries in cameras with current technology. Battery usage is dependant on usage to some extent. For casual use my cameras last weeks on a battery and even shooting all day e.g. in a studio, I would only get through one battery. Modern cameras also have usb-c charging and can be used whilst you do that, so that’s an option too, though less practical in my view. Yes, camera batteries are proprietary and it would be better if they weren’t, though they are generally the same across similar cameras from the manufacturer and the same in the successor cameras. Many mirrorless cameras are water resistant (with the right lenses) so the can be used in heavy rain, though not under water without a housing. Action cams like the GoPro 13 Black are waterproof with a removable battery.

[craftkiller]

My headlamp is waterproof and it has a replaceable 18650 battery without needing to dab silicon(e?) on it. It is also rechargeable over USB type-c so I have both the option to replace the physical battery or plug it in to charge that battery.

[numpad0]

> My Canon waterproof camera came with a tube of silicon I had to dab on the battery compartment gasket

And those devices are MORE water resistant than most phones. The grease is to improve ingress protection beyond what's possible with double sided tapes used in "waterproof" phones. And the manuals for that gear should mention a retention period of x hours under y depth counting down from the moment the housing was closed.

Contrast to that, waterproof ratings for most glued-shut waterproof phones are invalid after purchase. Out of package, out of spec. Most manufacturers don't honor warranties for water damages for waterproof phone, and very few offer requisite gasket maintenance to retain waterproof ratings.

Apple doesn't have a recertification option even for battery replacement at Apple Store. Do ANY service and it's invalid. Not waterproof even in THEIR hands. Frankly their terms is one of the most egregious.

[jmaw]

Headlamps for sensitive applications will ALWAYS involve a replaceable or external battery. Can't have your light going out when you are in a dangerous situation. When I used to rock climb, I always kept 3x AAA's taped to the strap in case the one I had in died. Never needed to use them, but made me much more confortable.

[snowwrestler]

A lithium ion headlamp plus power bank does the same thing for the same weight and more flexibility. You can also charge phone, InReach, cameras. You can decide what is most important use of power. That’s the standard these days.

Another approach is to bring 2 charged headlamps. Again, same weight as an old headlamp + 3AAAs. But covers additional failures like breaking or dropping.

[iszomer]

Separate battery modules can be subjected to obsolescence too, being hard pressed into finding a suitable replacement with similar specifications and which manufacturer that still makes them. I am on my 3rd Zenfone2 battery and it is definitely no longer in production..

[2muchcoffeeman]

Having a battery pack has its uses though. As crazy as USBC is, you can now get a relatively large amount of power from a battery pack.

There’s a bunch of things that don’t need their own battery if they just drew enough power off USBC. I have an office coffee setup. My grinder and espresso maker have their own batteries. But there’s no reason I couldn’t have a single battery pack and just plug both into USBC saving me a ton of weight. (In fact the Lagom Mini 2 grinder is powered straight off USBC with no internal power.)

For phones and cameras, that need their own power source, a replaceable battery is mostly just an end of life thing for me. Because I’d still have to carry a cable or spare battery around.

[inetknght]

These things aren't mutually exclusive. Once upon a time, batteries were generic and fit some standard form-factor. You could swap batteries between devices and often did! You could even connect your device to a pack of batteries, and swap out the batteries within the pack.

[bmicraft]

240W max is very little when it comes to hearing up water, and most powerbanks don't even do more than 100W output. That's more in the range of those swappable tool batteries.

[2muchcoffeeman]

The Ikape Cera+ can heat water from room temp but it can’t do this many times.

But in many environments you don’t have to heat from cold. There’s often a Zip tap or kettle to get you most of the way.

But maybe the internal battery can deliver more power directly to the heating element.

[chromacity]

Phones don't have removable batteries mostly because of the desire to make the device as thin as possible. The battery is just a delicate, flexible pouch that can easily be damaged and catch fire if removed from the phone and carried around. To make it safe, you'd need to add a hard shell, which would probably make the device 2 mm thicker or so.

As to why we want to make phones as thin as possible... I don't know, but I guess it makes them look futuristic, which helps with sales. The same goes for highly-reflective, glossy screens. I guess I'm not gonna cry if that gets regulated away.

[deaux]

> Phones don't have removable batteries mostly because of the desire to make the device as thin as possible. The battery is just a delicate, flexible pouch that can easily be damaged and catch fire if removed from the phone and carried around. To make it safe, you'd need to add a hard shell, which would probably make the device 2 mm thicker or so.

Fairphone 6, recent with replaceable battery: 9.6 mm

Galaxy S5, has a replaceable battery, released _12 years ago_ - battery tech has improved a lot since then: 8.1 mm

iPhone 17 Pro Max: 8.8 mm

iPhone 12 Pro Max: 7.4 mm

We want to make phones as thin as possible so the latest flagship iPhone is 1.4 mm thicker than the one from 5 years ago? A whole 0.8 mm thinner than a recent one with a replaceable battery with maybe 0.1% of the iPhone's R&D budget, and 0.8 mm thicker than one with a replaceable battery made 12 years ago?

[ssl-3]

Galaxy S5 had a tool-free replaceable 2800mAh battery, with hard sides for protection. NFC. Wireless charging (as a user-installed option -- again, no tools, but did add some thickness and weight). USB 3 with OTG. HDMI over MHL. An excellent camera for the time. An OLED screen. A headphone jack. An SD card. A sim card. An IR blaster for changing TV channels at the pub. (I'm probably missing some functions here.)

The bootloader was unlocked in many regions (and became unlockable in all regions). Custom roms were abundant.

And it was waterproof.

(In the subsequent decade+, I have heard it said over and over again that this is an impossible combination of traits. And yet, there was a time when we had all that.)

[lxgr]

You're thinking about "hot swappable" batteries, but the EU is only mandating user-replaceable batteries, which can even require specialized tools.

I don't think there's any requirement to make the batteries themselves safe to throw into a backpack where they might be punctured.

[kikokikokiko]

Bullshit. This was the reason the industry gave for why they were removing battery replaceability support. Everybody hated it when it was first introduced, and to this day I only buy phones which have easily accessible ways to put a new battery on when the day comes. Fuck this BS of "people wanted thinner phones".

[techpression]

It’s also very hard to make them resistant to water and dust, I really like that I can wash my iPhone in the sink and don’t have to worry about it getting wet in general. This is a lot harder to achieve with battery doors, especially if they need to be as big as a phone back.

[numpad0]

Completely untrue and debunked ad nauseum.

Rugged phones with removable batteries has vastly superior IP ratings. Glues go bad faster than O-rings used in removable batteries do.

I've had water intrusion with an iPhone, and it drove a sales of a new display panel from myself. Not so much with an actual rugged phone.

[techpression]

Rugged phones are so far removed from any consumer phone in terms of size and weight the comparison is about as apt as comparing military use laptops with a MacBook.

[fortyseven]

You... wash your phone in the sink?

[techpression]

Easiest way to get rid of dust and other buildup, free flowing water for a few seconds and done. Compared to the Middle Ages of using tooth picks or similar to clean the ports and speakers it’s much nicer. And no, I don’t have my phone in any weird places, just my pocket.

[heavyset_go]

I cannot wait until I can carry a spare battery in my wallet again

[bigfishrunning]

Too scary to sit on a battery and possibly breach it. Keep em on your belt like batman.

[heavyset_go]

Living on the edge is part of the fun

[thrownthatway]

Who carries there wallet in their back pocket?

[bmicraft]

Many people do, although I too don't get why

[BenFranklin100]

I carry USB-battery pack or my MagSafe battery. At night I use pass through charging.

Works just as well.

[thrownthatway]

> or my MagSafe battery

So you agree that swappable batteries are superior.

[heavyset_go]

This is what I do now, but the convenience of always having at least one spare battery on my person at any time was peak smartphone

[chrisjj]

> I can use 40+ year old cameras

Apple winces.

[somat]

Several years ago when I bought a slr, I went with nikon, mainly because their F-mount lenses are mostly compatible back to 1959.

It is a lot of fun to pick up and use nice old glass from garage sales and such. They tend to require manual control, but that is the fun part of taking pictures anyway.

[spiralpolitik]

Nah, they'll just make the battery an external MagSafe accessory like the Air.

[usef-]

Software security updates seem to be the limit to phone life, not batteries (the latter of which I've had replaced at Apple stores). Apple still seems to have the longest support for security updates.

[doctorpangloss]

user replaceable batteries and blue bubbles are the 2 greatest threats to Apple

[theshrike79]

Quickswap batteries work for stateless devices.

A camera doesn't care if you take the battery out, except for that sub-second bit when it's saving the photo. Otherwise it doesn't notice you swapping the battery at all.

Modern phones are different because they are basically computers, and computers really don't like it when you just cut the power with no warning.

[AdrianB1]

Some action cameras have replaceable batteries, some don't. I had a perfectly good Contour Roam 2 where the battery died and I still have a Contour Roam 3 with some low capacity battery.

[pandaman]

Action cameras seem to have less than a 2h run-time though. One could argue that a replaceable battery is a desired feature on such a device as many users of these cameras participate in activities lasting much longer. They also tend to have replaceable memory for the same reason. And it all is achieved without EU directives as far as I know, just from the pure market demand.

PS. Consumer surveillance cameras, on the other hand, don't have replaceable batteries in general, as they can operate indefinitely off a small solar panel or for months on a charge.

[Forgeties79]

My GoPro hero 4 black still going strong. Probably one of the greatest cameras ever made. They kind of hurt themselves with how good it was lol

[eru]

There are benefits and downsides. Consumers and companies can make these decisions just fine.

[kolinko]

With cameras you don't care about every mm of width, nor about how resistant it is to falls. With phones you do.

I, for one, don't welcome that change. I'd be ok with paying someone a bit extra to replace the battery. I mean, I'd be ok if I had a battery die in my phone in the last 10 years, which I don't remember it did.

[tredre3]

Just to be clear replaceable doesn't mean removable/hot-swappable in this context. There doesn't have to be a battery compartment, the battery can still be glued in place. The phone can still be sealed.

Manufacturers only have to make it possible for users to open and close the phone to replace the battery without damage, using common tools.

[kennywinker]

Personally I’m confused why people say they want a thinner phone while carrying a phone that’s keeps getting larger every model.

When was the last time you kept a phone longer than 2-3 years? That’d explain why you haven’t had one die.

Assuming you do get a new phone regularly, easy battery replacement will probably help the resale value of your own a fair bit - the labour cost of a battery replacement is priced into most older phones on the second hand market.

[ghshephard]

My average time on a smartphone is now at 4 years, feels like it's going to 5 pretty soon. [Last upgrade was for USB-C. Next upgrade will be for on-device LLM. It's wild how approximately 0% of what Apple has done outside of the USB-C connector has mattered to me in the last 10+ years - low-light photography is probably the only other thing that comes to mind. ]

I've had two battery replacements since 2015. One of them was required, the other was mostly optional (battery had dropped to 90% on my iPhone - which was probably sufficient).

USB-C - that was an awesome requirement that it was unclear whether Apple was ever going to do.

User Replaceable Battery? Zero desire, particularly if it reduces water resistance on the device. Dozens of things I've wanted from a phone - being able to replace the battery has never even entered my mind as something I wanted.

[kennywinker]

Your cycle is 4 years, and you’ve had two phone batteries replaced in 11 years? That’s 2/2.75 phones.

Ok, one was optional, and let’s round up to 3. So 1/3 of your phones. Kinda sounds like you would benefit from replaceable batteries.

Regardless, those 4-5 year old phones likely went to ewaste immediately or soon after you were done with them because the cost of replacing the battery was less than their resale value after 4-5 years.

That’s a pattern our planet literally can’t handle. Wars over digging up minerals using slave labour then putting them in phones for 3-5 years just to send them to have children get chemical burns stripping the metals out of them.

My last computer lasted me 11 years, with two battery replacements along the way. My phone should do the same, just as easily.

[BobbyTables2]

What really annoys me is Apple EOLed the iPhone 8 and then came out with a virtually identical SE version. Of course they soon discontinued the SE too…

Maybe they updated the CPU slightly but screen and camera were identical.

I would have kept my iPhone 8 if they kept updating the software. Yet somehow they can manage update the SE software despite looking the same as the iPhone 8…

I know there is a cost and overhead toward supporting old platforms. But for the premium on these devices and the level of waste generated, manufacturers can still do better…

I’d prefer no new features and only security updates… perhaps I’m weird.

[zuhsetaqi]

The SE got a 2 Generation newer CPU. The iPhone 8 lost software support the same day all other devices with an A11 lost it.

> Yet somehow they can manage update the SE software despite looking the same as the iPhone 8...

Are you seriuos? What does the look of a phone have to do with how long it is supported?

[kennywinker]

Not weird. The last few os updates have made my phone laggy and slow. I want security updates, i don’t want new features that kill my battery life and usability.

[jychang]

The iPhone SE (2020) cpu is like twice as fast as the iPhone 8 cpu, lol.

[neves]

Note that your 2 best features were usb-c and replacement batteries. Both were government mandated against unethical behavior of Apple.

That's what governments are for.

[rootusrootus]

Apple had been switching their various iOS devices to USB-C for several years before the EU decided to mandate it, so I don't know how you can assert that them switching the iPhone to USB-C was because they were forced to. It looks more like the EU just had lucky timing and told them to do something they were already doing.

[svnt]

I am curious where you got this impression?

Apple fought it the whole way, commissioned studies to show it was a bad idea, etc etc. This after they had a decade prior been subject to the same thing with micro USB and skirted that agreement by shipping more unnecessary cables.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/02/02/what-the-eu-manda...

[kennywinker]

Laptops, the ipads. Phones and airpods came after the eu law. Debatable, but it seems to me like they consider the ipad in the same class as a laptop, so it got grouped with those. Otherwise why did it take 5 years between the first ipad with usb-c and the first iphone?

[unlikelytomato]

I very much miss the ability to never use my phone on a charging cable. Just swap the battery on an external charger and go. 5 seconds to charge to full. It was freeing and simple

[hattmall]

I always wanted an internal battery of like 1 minute, so I could hot swap batteries. Then the battery capacity would be largely irrelevant. What would be cool is to have a large case that could charge the battery multiple times like with ear buds. The magnetic wireless charging blocks that just stick on the back of the phone are pretty fair compromise though.

[usefulcat]

I've had the same phone for over 6 years now (iPhone 11). It's a bit slower now, but I suspect that's more to do with software changes than anything else. In particular the battery is still in pretty good shape.

[saintfire]

Sort of a funny example since "batterygate" centered on degraded iPhone batteries in which Apple argued the best possible move is to throttle phones so they don't shutdown unexpectedly.

Most people would argue the best outcome is spending <100$ and 1 min of your time to have your phone restored to like-new speed.

[virtualritz]

Not sure what replacable has to do with thickness.

When I bought my first smartpone, a Moto G (1st gen) it was as flat as any phone most people carried around at the time (2014, I think). And the battery was replaceable.

I think also Samsung phones had replaceable batteries then. And this was the case for a few years after. Until it wasn't.

Devices didn't suddenly get thin when batteries were glued in. Why would they?

[petterroea]

The Samsung S5 was very thin. Too thin imo. And it had a replaceable battery

[stodor89]

My grandma is still daily driving my ancient Galaxy S5 Neo. When someone says thinness is opposed to removable battery, or water resistance, or headphone jack, or durability, or SD card... I always think of it.

[gnabgib]

I'm not sure about too thin (although I switched to the qi-charging back after a year), the replacements /where/ thinner.. but lost the IR blaster, replaceable battery, eventually μSD housing, eventually headphone jack.

[petterroea]

I don't know, it just felt flimsy. But in almost a "flimsy meaning it can handle a beating" way. It sure did.

I did ruin the water protection on mine pretty quickly though, because the back panel was made of plastic and was... flimsy. It basically became a fidget toy.

When thinking of how flagship phone producers are going to keep making sexy phones that also keep their watertightness, my biggest worry is repeated stress from any removable component becoming a fidget toy

[jpollock]

A replaceable battery needs protection. One in the device gets protection from the device.

[virtualritz]

The replaceable battery is still inside the case. How is it more protected because "glue"?

I also replaced glued batteries in phones following ifixit instructions a few times (using a hair dryer/heat gun).

They didn't have any less or more "protection" than the replaceable ones. They looked exactly the same apart from the connectors ofc.

Please substantiate your claim. Until then I call it BS.

[spaqin]

We've had thin smartphones with replaceable batteries 15 years ago. That was the standard. Galaxy S5 was the last one in that series, and it's not looking too different from today. It was even IP rated for water!

Batteries also don't really die, but you get shorter and shorter life. When a device that barely could make it through 2 days of use now survives for less than one, an "upgrade" seems nicer than it really would've been if you could just swap the battery.

[pnw]

The S5 was IP67 rated but only if the USB port flap was sealed. Modern phones like the S24 and iPhones are IP68 rated without covers.

As someone who spends a lot of time outdoors in the rain, giving up superior IP68 water resistance for a replaceable battery that I'll never replace will be a downgrade for me.

[t_sawyer]

GoPros are IP68 rated without a housing and have removable batteries. This is not an impossible task.

Phone makers do not want you to be able to replace batteries easily because it will extend the life of a phone. End of story.

[kennywinker]

Do you toss it in the trash when you’re done? Pop it in a drawer to rot? Ewaste will bury us all, conflict minerals and all. Replaceable batteries are a net good for humanity, and i personally believe that the smart people at phone companies can solve the problem of waterproofing even with replaceable batteries

[pnw]

I trade the phone in for the new model as God and Steve Jobs intended.

[kennywinker]

Right. So ewaste.

[fsckboy]

in another comment you just said "When was the last time you kept a phone longer than 2-3 years?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195#47842655

how do you square that position with your stance here on e-waste as it applies to other people who are apparently ruining the planet?

[kennywinker]

What? I think you misunderstood…

The comment above mine you linked to said they never had battery problems. I was saying they probably don’t keep their phones long enough to encounter battery problems. I wasn’t suggesting that’s a good thing - just that it’s very common. And if you need me to defend my position with action: I’m 5 years in on this phone and planning to do a diy battery swap soon to keep it running a little longer.

[silversmith]

IP_7 means it's ok with water immersion for up to 30 minutes, down to 1m. You can go swimming with an IP_7 rated device.

IP_8 is "more than 1m, more than 30min water immersion" rating.

"outdoors in the rain" needs IP_5 rating if you want to be safe. You do not need a dive watch to go out in rain.

Even non-waterproof devices are not exactly made of sugar. My first iphone was a 3gs. I want running with the device in an armband. My rain precautions were plugging in 3.5mm earphones, and pointing the charge port downwards. Regularly got caught in rain with it, and the device was completely fine two years later when I sold it.

[numpad0]

Ports develop rust if exposed to elements. This applies to USB-C ports too. That's why all seriously rugged phones has flaps for every ports with all-plastic enclosures over metal frames(not all waterproof equipment are seawater rated; they have to be specifically designed and tested to be resistant to galvanic corrosion if the water to be submerged in is not deionized or at least potable).

Urban rainproof phones like S24 and iPhone aren't actually intended to be left drenched in mud or seawater, so they don't have to be equipped to be resistant against pieces of soil or soaked driftwood jammed in the charge port.

[ssl-3]

That's true. More-modern phones can be IP-rated without a cover for the USB port like the S5 required.

That doesn't mean that a modern phone of vaguely S5 shape, with an S5-esque battery door, can't be fitted with a more modern USB port, though. Does it?

They seem like very unrelated things.

(Those modern ports, by the way? They're pretty slick when they work right. They detect moisture and turn off the bit of normally-externally-available power to help prevent galvanic corrosion.)

[andrelaszlo]

"...that I'll never replace", I mean you will replace the whole phone, including the battery? (Unless this is your last phone, in which case you won't be affected anyway :P)

[numpad0]

Most digital cameras above mid ranges are made of painted Magnesium alloy material for both weight and durability. Only cosmetic parts are made of Aluminum and plastics. They don't talk much about those because all the remaining companies in the market are from one same country that don't speak English that isn't China, and there is no differentiation to be made in that area.

[rythie]

Both of those things are also important in cameras, there is even sites that compare the size such as https://camerasize.com/. Cameras have got smaller in recent years and it makes the size makes a big difference to whether you take it with you on not or fits in your pocket or not for compact cameras. Ricoh’s gr4 camera is 0.5mm thinner than the previous model (gr3). Cameras are essentially smaller than they would be otherwise because they have replaceable batteries. People who need at more power usually use several batteries rather than use a bigger camera with more capacity.

Cameras also need to withstand drops for similar reasons to phones, it’s in you hand and you could drop it, also tripods can fall over, car mounts fall off etc.

[thrownthatway]

> care about every mm of width

I think you mean thickness?

Extra width is sold as a feature.

I don’t understand the obsession with reducing thickness.

Why is a thinner phone more desirable than a thicken one?

[drw85]

I don't think it is more desirable, the iPhone Air has reportedly sold way below expectations.

[bityard]

I don't care about every mm of width, and don't understand those that do. A phone up to 3/4" fits into any pocket that a 1/4" one does.

I had multiple android phones with replaceable batteries and many were no thicker than modern phones, especially once you've added the protective case.

[piskov]

The main issue of paying someone to teplace the battery is procuring the battery in the first place.

For example, good luck finding good apple batteries in regions where there is no official apple service.

Most Chinese parts are inferior: for example rates for max 500 cycles instead of 1000

[kennywinker]

Just to clarify something: afaik official apple batteries are “chinese” in origin.

[piskov]

Sure, but that doesn’t mean every chinese battery is the same.

For some reason there are no 3rd-party batteries of the same quality as Apple’s. And Apple doesn’t distribute them freely to other countries.

[kennywinker]

You can just say “aftermarket” or “knockoff” or even “3rd party”. They all get the same point across and don’t rely on an outdated stereotype about chinese manufacturing.

[piskov]

Stereotypes are not fiction.

Become a nation that cherishes quality and this will change.

Noone forced them to produce junk, manufacturing prowess nonwithstanding