[zoul]

Not every european company embodies european values. As an example, Signal is listed as a US company people might want a european replacement for – and yet Signal represents european values much better than many of the alternatives.

[c03]

This is a great point where nationality does not reflect political values. Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians.

If a global set of "Don't be an asshole" values could be defined, put into words, shared and progressed, it would have much greater value to a consumer and the world than merely going back to nationalism and protectionism.

[rapnie]

But it is not nationalism as the set of common shared values aren't bound to nations. And neither is it protectionism in the traditional meaning of the term. If you don't participate in upholding the value system (or worse actively seeks to destroy it) then you don't get to reap the benefits. I read this "buy European" initiative as a "don't buy American" in light of the current political situation. Withholding trade is an incentive to US voters to fix their system and tap into the benefits once again as a reward.

[johngladtj]

That's called pan nationalism a superset of nationalism

[a12k]

> Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians.

I can’t speak for Russia because I have no data, but most Americans don’t carry the opinion of this government.

[Goto80]

If that is the case, how did this government get a majority?

[greedylizard]

The electoral college rigs the game. If one person equaled one vote, American government could look significantly different right now.

[philistine]

Those are sufficient excuses that prevent countries from signing free trade deals with other nations: we don't trust the health of your political system to sign a free trade deal with your nation.

[walls]

It would still have trump at the head of it.

[tacticalturtle]

In a world without an electoral college, I’m not sure you can say this.

Almost every state is winner take all in electoral votes.

I suspect there are a lot of discouraged voters who don’t vote, because they live in states where their opinion is overrun by the political slant of the state’s majority.

In a direct popular vote, their vote counts a lot more.

[alistairSH]

Trump might be in the WH, but Congress would possibly not be controlled by the GOP.

[ajuc]

They don't support imperialism, but they also don't care enough to be against imperialism. They care about egg prices or their favorite culture wars more than about people dying elsewhere.

It's egoism, simple as that.

[consteval]

I think it’s more complicated - this feels like a psychology and biology issue.

Those things are naturally closer to them which then means they generate stronger emotions. Just intuitively, emotions fuel pretty much all decisions. I mean, if heroin didn’t feel good people wouldn’t do it. If fast food didn’t taste good people wouldn’t eat it. Conversely, negative emotion create patterns of behavior.

Our behavior is complex and choice is a spectrum. I don’t really choose to brush my teeth, it just kind of happens. I can stop, but I don’t. I look around me and nobody stops brushing their teeth. Perhaps brushing our teeth is so popular because it creates positive emotions. Less shame, less worries, more comfort.

I think, those in power harness this quite effectively.!

[atwrk]

Voter suppression: https://www.gregpalast.com/trump-lost-vote-suppression-won/

[re-thc]

> how did this government get a majority?

That's not what people voted for (agreeing with the government). They were given choices and to pick what they felt they preferred.

[ajuc]

People have choosen to believe obvious lies because they wanted them to be true, not because they thought they were true. It's as much their fault as the politicians who lied to them.

[re-thc]

> because they wanted them to be true

This assumes they even know what the truth is. We have discovered that a lot of people don't know how tariffs work for example.

[anal_reactor]

It did because that's exactly what people want, it's just that many people will tell you otherwise because they live in an information bubble and cannot believe that there exists voters outside of their bubble.

[FirmwareBurner]

Same with opinions on HN. People here don't realize they're in a bubble and their opinions aren't representative for the masses. If you tell them that you get downvoted and flagged.

[croniev]

I'm sorry but it sounds like you were trying to spread conspiracy theories, the way you are putting it. Do you have some examples?

[alistairSH]

Trump won 49.x% of the vote.

But the US doesn’t have direct presidential elections. It has an archaic, anti-democratic system called the Electoral College, which grants land in Wyoming greater relative weight than people in Texas.

[ryandrake]

Don't forget: Only about 2/3 of eligible voters voted. So those 1/3 who didn't vote, effectively voted for (or at the very least, condoned) the winner.

They didn't physically vote, but by not-voting, they are literally saying "I'm OK with whoever wins."

[ben_w]

A mixture of things. Dishonesty — which is broader than just "lying" — for one. One of Trump's talking points during the election was "never started a war", and now: https://theconversation.com/trumps-threats-on-greenland-gaza...

But also, people can change their minds between elections: https://eu.providencejournal.com/story/news/politics/2025/03...

[DougN7]

A huge number felt they had to vote for the lesser of two bad choices. I think many that voted for Trump were naive and are genuinely surprised at what they are seeing. At least I’d like to think so, despite what you might find on forums.

[c03]

My point was that a company, and thus products and employees, do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the government of which it is based.

Besides taking ethical actions, how do you signal that that you share a certain set of political values with your consumers and shareholders, instead of your "somewhat arbitrary" law makers. It is a big shift, and not always an option, to move physical factories, workplaces, etc.

[croniev]

I agree, but there are also cases where it is blatantly clear that companies are not only on Trumps side but taking initiative themselves to corrode our political culture, and people here in europe are too comfy to make a switch, apart from a lack of similar alternatives.

X and Meta are most obvious, and I don't know about google's involvement, but have been trying to convince people to move away from it for years. It's a similar situation with streaming services.

[philistine]

Ultimately it doesn't matter. We haven't blocked trade only with the segment of Iranians who support their government's nuclear program. We blocked trade with all Iranians, and put extra restrictions on specific government actors who enact nuclear policy.

Same thing with Russia. Or Syria. Or North Korea. In foreign affairs, all the citizens of a nation are collectively held responsible for the action of that state.

Which is to say: stop hedging. This is your government. You cannot wash your hands of this mess because you voted for Kodos. It's your mess, admit it, and see what you can do to fix it. The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.

[hayst4ck]

> If a global set of "Don't be an asshole" values could be defined,

The history of "rights" is what you're looking for, and this would come in the form of a list of rights.

You would probably get a lot out of reading The Declaration of the Rights of Man (https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/rightsof.asp), as well as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...).

Thomas Paine wrote about the philosophy of rights as well, and you would probably get a lot out of reading his works such as The Rights of Man (https://www.ushistory.org/paine/rights/c1-013.htm)

Something being a right means that law does not grant it. If law granted it, it would be a privilege rather than a right. Governments exist to protect rights, but they don't grant rights. That's the solution to the bootstrapping problem for non authoritarian forms of government and why it is always OK to defend your rights, even if they are illegal under a specific form of government. America's founding document, the declaration of independence, is explicit about this idea.

> shared and progressed

No, this is where you are wrong, you didn't use the word defend, and that's really where the problem with liberal ideas starts and ends. They must be defended, at personal cost, with force.

Defending an idea that can't reward or punish you will not be as profitable or safe as defending a man who can reward or punish you. It is much easier for a man to build an army than for an idea to build an army. It will always be painful to defend your rights in the short term, but if you don't you will never have rights in the long term.

Solidarity, risking your own safety and well being for the benefit of someone else, is the only way to achieve a world you want to live in, but some of the builders of that world won't get to experience it, and that's a hard sell to people who just want to see their kids smile.

[parski]

Hear!

[ajuc]

> Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians.

Their taxes still support their governments and so do your purchases if you buy there.

[roenxi]

> If a global set of "Don't be an asshole" values could be defined, put into words, shared and progressed...

Being a cynic, I expect the speeches to start with that then smoothly translate into "and therefore we have to spend more money on waging war in foreign countries". The US is exemplifying some of the best international values right now of trying to find a sharp end to all the meaningless dying we've been seeing for the last few years.

If it takes nationalism to make people serious about avoiding WWIII, so be it. Vote nationalist.

[anal_reactor]

> The US is exemplifying some of the best international values right now of trying to find a sharp end to all the meaningless dying we've been seeing for the last few years.

It's not rape if you agree to it.

[c03]

If nuance is that hard to equip, then please do, but please be keenly aware that this is your own choice. No one will save you from your own actions.

[touwer]

You mean rape, fraud, corruption, narcissim, tax the poor, cut social welfare, suck up to the agressor, anti-tolerance, etc?

[galfarragem]

> Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians.

As do many Europeans...

[kkarpkkarp]

Signal comes from the country where the Prism [1] is still functioning. While it has open source, NSA can request from deployers on any stage to inject surveillance functionality: request from Signal authors, from Android / Apple Store repository maintainers and probably many other actors on the deployment chain to my mobile phone.

I could install it from sources but I do not have any guarantee my message sent to my friend is not eye-picked by PRISM on his phone.

Open-source + marketing copy != final product

Just a regular reminder, guys.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM

[kreetx]

I wonder why can't we have a fully open source e2ee that would be easy to use?

[SSLy]

> I wonder why can't we have a fully open source e2ee that would be easy to use?

what would you say about simplex's UX? https://simplex.chat/docs/guide/readme.html

[Aloisius]

Signal is fully open source.

[fsflover]

Matrix is getting there.

[workfromspace]

I keep hearing about Matrix (protocol) for a long time now.

Wikipedia says [0] it was started 10 years ago. I wonder what's the hold up?

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)

[fsflover]

I'm already using to to chat with my friends and family. The basic features are sufficiently polished IMHO.

[amarcheschi]

While I do agree with what you say, I feel the og post is more in the spirit of "buy local, support your local x/y/z" rather than just sharing values. At least, this is how I see it, even if the title says support European values, which is surely much more inspiring

[arghwhat]

*Support European values financially.

Local circulation and tax payment does make a big and positive difference for many things (e.g., less transport for physical goods). Doesn't require the first recipient to be aligned with your values to have an effect.

It's just unfortunate that it had to be forced for stupid reasons, especially as it doesn't necessarily make sense for everything. This timeline sucks.

[lynx97]

What are European values, actually? I don't think there is a lot that all member state citizens actually share, except for a lot of wishful thinking.

[kharak]

Replace European with Cosmopolitan values. There are no unified European values, as the states of Europe are quite diverse. But there is significant cultural homogeneity for a subset of the population, the cosmopolitans. They tend to be the elites and form these kind of discourses. They use the term European values, mostly unaware of their cosmopolitan nature.

[ivan_gammel]

That’s the question that is easy to answer with a single document:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/treaty/char_2012/oj/eng

[protonbob]

freedom of speech is notably absent here.

[thefringthing]

Title II, Article 11.

[tpm]

All member states share the European Convention on Human Rights.

[simion314]

>What are European values, actually?

We accept that each European country people are equal, we agree to collaborate and not screw each others for land.

Also we in majority are against fascism,racism and discrimination though social media managed to make a portion of idiots to hate LGBTQs and wokes so they want they adopted fascist values. We as citizens we re doing our best to fight aginst this fascists groups.

And before some MAGA will calim that right wing extemists are not fascists, I remind you that supporting assassinations, deportations, killings while at the same time pretending to be Christian is fascist (at least in my country, in USA might be labeled different)

[whiplash451]

Some US companies may represent European values but are still operating under the thumb and law of the US.

The philosophy here (as I understand it) is to list companies that operate under the EU rule of law.

[fsflover]

Signal forces you to use Apple or Google phones (which enable spying on users via, e.g., push notifications [0]), actively fights with third party clients and servers, goes against decentralization. They want to be the single point of failure or attack. They also use the AWS. This is all too suspicious for me.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543155

See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39445976, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39414322, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32248062

[anonym29]

Not if you're using Molly-FOSS, which strips all Google integrations down to a shared library level. UnifiedPush instead of Firebase. OSM for location sharing instead of GMaps. There are de-googled AOSP-based mobile OS's such as GrapheneOS that can be used with Molly-FOSS as well.

It's not necessarily the perfect end goal, but for those who are at an earlier phase of their privacy journey, GrapheneOS + Molly-FOSS is a massive improvement over stock Android + stock Signal, while maintaining a relatively minimal disruption to their ordinary workflows with e2ee messaging on an android-based smartphone.

https://molly.im/

https://github.com/mollyim/mollyim-android

[FirmwareBurner]

>Not every european company embodies european values.

What even are "European values"? Is there such thing? Every EU country I know has varying values to the other members, that's why we have separate borders, languages, religions, cultures and laws with autonomy over them.

The EU is not one-nation one-culture like the US, but an org that doesn't impose any kind of universal values across the different diverse members except some laws that ease trade, labor movement and cooperation and that's it, but every country, and even every citizen has wildly different things they value based on culture, economy, history, social class and upbringing.

[amarcheschi]

While every country has its own culture and values, the European union is founded, at least theoretically, on some shared values such as promoting peace, democracy (...)

Well, one might say that we sell weapons to dictatorships (and they would be correct), but at least on paper there are some shared values we more or less share throughout European union. Full list here: https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor...

Edit Wikipedia page as well https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_values

[johngladtj]

Promoting peace and democracy? By arresting politicians opposed to them and funding and supporting wars?

[amarcheschi]

I guess you're referring to the Romanian candidate which was found to have millions of euros and tickets to Russia.

Yes, protecting democracy and peace also includes punishing those who put at risk the existence of peace and democracy.

For the war part, it kinda tickles your butt having a war on your neighbor's garden, I see nothing wrong with supporting such a war (on Ukraine side's, of course)

[johngladtj]

Yes of course. After all what could be more undemocratic than, let me check, "voting to change your countries foreign policy"

Pro-tip: if your democracy doesn't support changing course on foreign policy engagements, you're not a democracy

[amarcheschi]

There's a stark difference between voting to change your countries foreign policy and an enemy state interference in the affairs in the country.

The Romanian candidate said he had spent nothing for the campaign, but that is not true given the recent developments, and these donations were part of the decision to abort the election results

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/12/04/declassified-r...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusations_of_Russian_inter...

[FirmwareBurner]

>I guess you're referring to the Romanian candidate which was found to have millions of euros and tickets to Russia.

You mean just like politicians from Austria and Germany who were Putin's lobbying arm in Europe, then took jobs at Russian oil and gas companies when their political careers ended? Why didn't they get arrested too?

>Yes, protecting democracy and peace also includes punishing those who put at risk the existence of peace and democracy.

And who gets to decides who are those "violators of democracy" when they're popular with the voters? The current corrupt Romanian government with vested interest to stay in power and keep competitors away from challenging the status quo? Because in the case of Georgescu the intelligence agencies making the claims about his connections to Russia have not provided no such evidence to the public. So how do you know that their assessment is truthful? Because the government would never ever lie to you right? Right? Sorry, but "trust me bro, he's guilty" from the Romanian authorities doesn't fly with me. Otherwise JD Vance wouldn't have pointed it out if he were a Russian trojan horse.

>For the war part, it kinda tickles your butt having a war on your neighbor's garden, I see nothing wrong with supporting such a war (on Ukraine side's, of course)

I have a problem when the war gets too expensive and no progress gets made. Biden and EU kept doing this for 3 years already. We're just funneling endless taxpayer money into a black hole at this point while more Ukrainians keep dying. Ending this conflict peacefully ASAP through negotiations and concessions is the way to go. This isn't fighting Gaza or Iraq. You can't win a conflict against a nuclear superpower via conventional means.

[amarcheschi]

I would be fine with having corrupt politicians arrested in Germany, too, if they were found guilty of corruption, I do not see why they should be exempt

I do not believe for an instant than the roman salute making roman candidate isn't a Russian asset, given his salute shows support for other Russian friendly politicians currently sitting at the white house.

Regarding the war, AFAIK Ukrainians would rather be in the conditions to continue fighting than to surrender and sign an unfair peace agreement. I would have no issues with rearming Europe if it meant that, as proposed, we would get a better pipeline for European weapons procurement. Having basically stopped the advance of Russia is a huge win on its own, given that it was supposed to be one of the most powerful armies in the world. Shrugging this off as "no progress" is unjust to the taxpayers as well to the Ukrainians

[pastage]

Maybe be specific, are there any specific wars you find undemocratic. Afganistan and Iraq was heavily debated, the attack on Ukraine is seen as an attack on Europe but is also heavily debated.

[rsynnott]

> Afganistan and Iraq was heavily debated

Also, not European wars. In particular, only two European countries participated in Iraq.

[u8080]

UK, Poland and Ukraine, two of them are not in EU now.

[lpcvoid]

The favorite russian playbook, framing people who support Ukraine's right to self defense in face of a genocidal invasion as warmongers.

EU security == Ukraine security.

[sras-me]

Assuming you are not from Ukraine, how much of your paycheck are you willing to sacrifice for the support for Ukraine, like indefinitely?

[lpcvoid]

I am willing to give 1% indefinitely (that's how much I currently donate monthly) until Ukraine is a free nation.

[FirmwareBurner]

The problem is everyone is forced to donate whether they like it or not. It's not something people get to vote for.

[rsynnott]

> but an org that doesn't impose any kind of universal values across the different diverse members except some laws that ease trade, labor movement and cooperation and that's it

Also human rights, democracy, anti-corruption stuff. Now, as we've seen with Orban, Europe's mechanism for actually _enforcing_ this is basically defective.

And peace. Like, the original stated intent of the Coal and Steel Treaty (the EU's ultimate predecessor) was to prevent another European war (largely by making it economically impracticable).

[AlecSchueler]

> And peace. Like, the original stated intent of the Coal and Steel Treaty (the EU's ultimate predecessor) was to prevent another European war (largely by making it economically impracticable).

And has a war broken out amongst ECSC/EU countries?

[oytis]

There is a lot of history and values behind the "org that eases trade". It even has its own anthem, and the Treaty of Lisbon explicitly lists what values it is founded on.

[zaruvi]

Please don't conflate Europe (the continent) and the European Union.

[oytis]

Continent is a mass of land, it can't have values. E.g. countries on the European continent include Turkey and Russia. European Union on the other hand explicitly declares shared values.

[hyperman1]

Correct. E.g. Russia is on the European continent.

By size, they provide a lot of both European and Asian values.

[meijer]

There is broad consensus in Europe that we don't want to be like Trumpist America.

[sras-me]

>There is broad consensus in Europe..

How is this measured actually? By what the media and public institutions say?

Is there poll targeted at the common working man that says the same? I highly doubts so.

[jltsiren]

Most European countries have proportional elections, at least for some levels of the government. Such elections give a pretty good idea of the popular support for various ideologies. On the average, parties that are broadly aligned with US Republicans get ~25% of the votes, though there is a lot of variation from country to country.

[Tainnor]

Even many the parties that are otherwise "broadly aligned with US Republicans" fundamentally disagree with Trump on Ukraine, such as FN, FdI, PiS, ...

Of course, there are AfD and Fidesz, but they occupy the minority position even within that spectrum.

[rsynnott]

I mean, Google exists: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/12/europeans-se...

[sras-me]

>Share of respondents who said Trump would be good or bad for their country..

No no, that is not what is being said here. To match with it, the poll should ask if they would like someone like Trump to be their leader, not if Trump in US would be bad for their country.

[rsynnott]

Am I missing something? The only alternative offered for Signal is a Matrix client. Matrix is open-source and federated, so, well, can really embody whoever's values you feel like. Though it, ah, certainly lacks something in _usability_.

[UncleSlacky]

Threema should be there as a European alternative to Signal:

https://threema.ch/en

[timeon]

It should not be just about values but also security. Well I use Signal but what if their servers are sized or blocked for EU users? (This is also valid for many companies listed in the page that are hosted on US clouds).

[closewith]

I'm not sure that's the best example, as Signal places a strong emphasis on personal freedoms which is _not_ particularly representative of European values at this time.

[simion314]

Yeah, you can't be a nazi in Europe, promoting political assasination and genocide has consequences there,

[closewith]

Yes, I agree. Signal is inherently contrary to the statism en vogue in most European nations at this time, and why they have repeatedly affirmed that they would leave the EU rather than allow user surveillance should Chat Control 2.0 or 3.0 be passed (rather Orwellianly officially named the "Regulation to Prevent and Combat Child Sexual Abuse (Child Sexual Abuse Regulation)".

[simion314]

That was a proposal that did not happen

Should we dig up USa stupid proposals? Or dig up actual laws like the USA laws for snooping on people that were revealed by Snowden?

A bit offtopic , is it a lw or rule that you are not allowed to call Trump a felon ? And is that constitutional?

[closewith]

> That was a proposal that did not happen

I'm well aware, as I was involved in the effort to block it (on four separate occasions now, and undoubtedly will again).

> Should we dig up USa stupid proposals? Or dig up actual laws like the USA laws for snooping on people that were revealed by Snowden?

The topic of this thread is European values and whether Signal embodies them or not. It's hopefully obvious to anyone interested that the prioritisation of individual freedoms that Signal embodies is not reflective of current European values, given the ever increasing levels of State surveillance across the continent.

That these are also not US values, even though their populace and politicians endlessly claim they are, is not relevant to this discussion.

[simion314]

> The topic was about European values<

extreme free speech with ZERO consequences is not such a value

my initial comment was clear, but some USAians will try to add that free speech is more important then any of our values, we can disagree on that and I will keep my opinion that kissing up to fascists is a good value to have, having them in leadership role is a disaster but USA will learn it the hard way.

[ssssvd]

Worth noting that Europe is the only place where someone could have actually been a Nazi, historically speaking. Plenty of other countries managed to avoid both Nazism and sweeping free speech bans.

And let’s not forget — the actual consequences for genocide were delivered by the Americans, Brits, and Russians, not by internal bans or laws.

[simion314]

> free speech bans.

Reminder for USAians that in USA free speech has limits and you can also get fined for your speech. USA decided that the public needs to be protected by boobs and Europeans decided that nazis cause much more damage then boobs.

[mrweasel]

You also have the issue that a company like Ecosia is listed as a German company, but their search is powered by Bing and Google, so does it really make much of a difference?

[AlecSchueler]

Bing and Google will always be powered by Bing and Google. Ecosia can bootsrap itself with their services until its value is great enough that it can fund itself a solution. That would be the ideal here anyway.

[jxjnskkzxxhx]

You said "not every European company embodies European values", but as an example you mentioned an American company.

[finnjohnsen2]

DuckDuckGo is another such example