[FirmwareBurner]

>Not every european company embodies european values.

What even are "European values"? Is there such thing? Every EU country I know has varying values to the other members, that's why we have separate borders, languages, religions, cultures and laws with autonomy over them.

The EU is not one-nation one-culture like the US, but an org that doesn't impose any kind of universal values across the different diverse members except some laws that ease trade, labor movement and cooperation and that's it, but every country, and even every citizen has wildly different things they value based on culture, economy, history, social class and upbringing.

[amarcheschi]

While every country has its own culture and values, the European union is founded, at least theoretically, on some shared values such as promoting peace, democracy (...)

Well, one might say that we sell weapons to dictatorships (and they would be correct), but at least on paper there are some shared values we more or less share throughout European union. Full list here: https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor...

Edit Wikipedia page as well https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_values

[johngladtj]

Promoting peace and democracy? By arresting politicians opposed to them and funding and supporting wars?

[amarcheschi]

I guess you're referring to the Romanian candidate which was found to have millions of euros and tickets to Russia.

Yes, protecting democracy and peace also includes punishing those who put at risk the existence of peace and democracy.

For the war part, it kinda tickles your butt having a war on your neighbor's garden, I see nothing wrong with supporting such a war (on Ukraine side's, of course)

[johngladtj]

Yes of course. After all what could be more undemocratic than, let me check, "voting to change your countries foreign policy"

Pro-tip: if your democracy doesn't support changing course on foreign policy engagements, you're not a democracy

[amarcheschi]

There's a stark difference between voting to change your countries foreign policy and an enemy state interference in the affairs in the country.

The Romanian candidate said he had spent nothing for the campaign, but that is not true given the recent developments, and these donations were part of the decision to abort the election results

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/12/04/declassified-r...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusations_of_Russian_inter...

[FirmwareBurner]

>I guess you're referring to the Romanian candidate which was found to have millions of euros and tickets to Russia.

You mean just like politicians from Austria and Germany who were Putin's lobbying arm in Europe, then took jobs at Russian oil and gas companies when their political careers ended? Why didn't they get arrested too?

>Yes, protecting democracy and peace also includes punishing those who put at risk the existence of peace and democracy.

And who gets to decides who are those "violators of democracy" when they're popular with the voters? The current corrupt Romanian government with vested interest to stay in power and keep competitors away from challenging the status quo? Because in the case of Georgescu the intelligence agencies making the claims about his connections to Russia have not provided no such evidence to the public. So how do you know that their assessment is truthful? Because the government would never ever lie to you right? Right? Sorry, but "trust me bro, he's guilty" from the Romanian authorities doesn't fly with me. Otherwise JD Vance wouldn't have pointed it out if he were a Russian trojan horse.

>For the war part, it kinda tickles your butt having a war on your neighbor's garden, I see nothing wrong with supporting such a war (on Ukraine side's, of course)

I have a problem when the war gets too expensive and no progress gets made. Biden and EU kept doing this for 3 years already. We're just funneling endless taxpayer money into a black hole at this point while more Ukrainians keep dying. Ending this conflict peacefully ASAP through negotiations and concessions is the way to go. This isn't fighting Gaza or Iraq. You can't win a conflict against a nuclear superpower via conventional means.

[amarcheschi]

I would be fine with having corrupt politicians arrested in Germany, too, if they were found guilty of corruption, I do not see why they should be exempt

I do not believe for an instant than the roman salute making roman candidate isn't a Russian asset, given his salute shows support for other Russian friendly politicians currently sitting at the white house.

Regarding the war, AFAIK Ukrainians would rather be in the conditions to continue fighting than to surrender and sign an unfair peace agreement. I would have no issues with rearming Europe if it meant that, as proposed, we would get a better pipeline for European weapons procurement. Having basically stopped the advance of Russia is a huge win on its own, given that it was supposed to be one of the most powerful armies in the world. Shrugging this off as "no progress" is unjust to the taxpayers as well to the Ukrainians

[FirmwareBurner]

You're not arguing in good faith using logic , proof and reason, you're deflecting my questions using optics and biases, so i will end the conversation here.

[pastage]

Maybe be specific, are there any specific wars you find undemocratic. Afganistan and Iraq was heavily debated, the attack on Ukraine is seen as an attack on Europe but is also heavily debated.

[rsynnott]

> Afganistan and Iraq was heavily debated

Also, not European wars. In particular, only two European countries participated in Iraq.

[u8080]

UK, Poland and Ukraine, two of them are not in EU now.

[lpcvoid]

The favorite russian playbook, framing people who support Ukraine's right to self defense in face of a genocidal invasion as warmongers.

EU security == Ukraine security.

[sras-me]

Assuming you are not from Ukraine, how much of your paycheck are you willing to sacrifice for the support for Ukraine, like indefinitely?

[lpcvoid]

I am willing to give 1% indefinitely (that's how much I currently donate monthly) until Ukraine is a free nation.

[sras-me]

Fair enough. I suppose it is your decision to donate 1%.

But would you like your president to make that decision for you? Would it be okay with it you if they asked you to sacrifice like 60% of your pay towards this cause, that too indefinitely?

[FirmwareBurner]

The problem is everyone is forced to donate whether they like it or not. It's not something people get to vote for.

[AlecSchueler]

There will never be a perfect direct democracy but a lot of Europe is pretty good on the democracy index. Of course things could always be better and there are always worries of regression but it's been my experience that I've felt decently represented; I've spoken with my representatives, I've felt heard and I've felt that my views were reflected in debates at the highest levels.

[rsynnott]

> but an org that doesn't impose any kind of universal values across the different diverse members except some laws that ease trade, labor movement and cooperation and that's it

Also human rights, democracy, anti-corruption stuff. Now, as we've seen with Orban, Europe's mechanism for actually _enforcing_ this is basically defective.

And peace. Like, the original stated intent of the Coal and Steel Treaty (the EU's ultimate predecessor) was to prevent another European war (largely by making it economically impracticable).

[AlecSchueler]

> And peace. Like, the original stated intent of the Coal and Steel Treaty (the EU's ultimate predecessor) was to prevent another European war (largely by making it economically impracticable).

And has a war broken out amongst ECSC/EU countries?

[oytis]

There is a lot of history and values behind the "org that eases trade". It even has its own anthem, and the Treaty of Lisbon explicitly lists what values it is founded on.

[zaruvi]

Please don't conflate Europe (the continent) and the European Union.

[oytis]

Continent is a mass of land, it can't have values. E.g. countries on the European continent include Turkey and Russia. European Union on the other hand explicitly declares shared values.

[hyperman1]

Correct. E.g. Russia is on the European continent.

By size, they provide a lot of both European and Asian values.

[meijer]

There is broad consensus in Europe that we don't want to be like Trumpist America.

[sras-me]

>There is broad consensus in Europe..

How is this measured actually? By what the media and public institutions say?

Is there poll targeted at the common working man that says the same? I highly doubts so.

[jltsiren]

Most European countries have proportional elections, at least for some levels of the government. Such elections give a pretty good idea of the popular support for various ideologies. On the average, parties that are broadly aligned with US Republicans get ~25% of the votes, though there is a lot of variation from country to country.

[Tainnor]

Even many the parties that are otherwise "broadly aligned with US Republicans" fundamentally disagree with Trump on Ukraine, such as FN, FdI, PiS, ...

Of course, there are AfD and Fidesz, but they occupy the minority position even within that spectrum.

[rsynnott]

I mean, Google exists: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/12/europeans-se...

[sras-me]

>Share of respondents who said Trump would be good or bad for their country..

No no, that is not what is being said here. To match with it, the poll should ask if they would like someone like Trump to be their leader, not if Trump in US would be bad for their country.