[david-gpu]

> I've never met anyone that regretted on "traveling too much".

And yet you eventually decided that it wasn't for you and you chose to go back home.

There are pros and cons to all possibilities, whether it is staying put, traveling as a tourist, or immigrating in a foreign country. People rarely grasp the true costs of immigrating until it is too late -- I've seen several remarkably similar examples.

[tjah1087]

“Why do you go away? So that you can come back. So that you can see the place you came from with new eyes and extra colors. And the people there see you differently, too. Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving.”

― Terry Pratchett, A Hat Full of Sky

[david-gpu]

That assumes that you come back.

What happens most commonly is that after some time abroad you marry (usually a foreigner) and have children who belong where they were born. What now? I speak from experience.

I wish people would pause for a moment before universally recommending something that they either have not experienced, or they have gotten away from. Such as Terry Pratchett, who never even lived abroad!

[sillyfluke]

Not a very charitable reading of the grandparent post. They were very upfront about not traveling anymore. They are, if anything by their own explicit example, vouching for the holistic experience of traveling a lot at one point in life and then settling down. This idea that someone should not recommend something if they are not actively doing the thing at this very moment in time is ridiculous, especially when they specified the context.

ps. there's no reason for the pratchett quote to not apply to regular travelling, as pratchett must have done a little of since he apparently shot a documentary with a bunch of orangutans in borneo.

[david-gpu]

> Not a very charitable reading of the parent post

Sure. I may well have misinterpreted what they said. I hope they accept my apologies.

> This idea that someone should not recommend something if they are not actively doing the thing at this very moment is ridiculous

Is it possible you made a "not very charitable reading" of my post as well?

> They are, if anything by their own explicit example, vouching for the holistic experience of traveling a lot at one point in life and then settling down

...which is not always possible, as I have tried to warn people multiple times in these threads. Once you move to a foreign country, you often end up with professional, relationship, and cultural ties that it is not possible to "settle down" -- by which I think you mean "return to your country of origin", please correct me if I'm wrong.

And, in the meantime, you will progressively become estranged from friends, family, and your own cultural heritage. It creeps up on you and by the time you notice it's often too difficult to do anything about it, especially if you have built family ties in your new country.

Look, I am happy that things turned out great for the OP of this thread. I really am. But recommending it to everybody without caveats is a step too far for me.

[rex_gallorum2]

You are absolutely correct. Living abroad for any length of time comes with tremendous costs. It changes you permanently.

In the end you can never really go home, because home as you knew it isn't there anymore, and you yourself have changed.

It can be very detrimental in more practical ways too - things few people pause to consider.

Edit:

Beware of the dreaded Ds such as death, divorce, debt, disability, etc. It's easy if you are young and consider a short stay abroad - but growing old abroad is another thing entirely.

[grugagag]

Two options the kids could adapt to. One of the partners will have to make a concession too but if it’s for the overall better health of the family it’s worth it IMO. Whats the point to live an unhealthy life?

[david-gpu]

There are no universally positive options, only tradeoffs. That is the theme I've been trying to convey in this thread from the beginning, fighting against the simplistic memes that are so often repeated about living abroad.

[notyourwork]

It seems odd to me that you are speaking as if your choices are not decisions you have to own the consequence of. You get married, you have kids, you made those choices but refuse to acknowledge that.

[david-gpu]

> It seems odd to me that you are speaking as if your choices are not decisions you have to own the consequence of. You get married, you have kids, you made those choices but refuse to acknowledge that.

Where did I refuse to acknowledge that, exactly?

Our choices indeed have consequences. And it is popular to paint "moving abroad" as a universally positive experience, so I want to counterbalance that with information about some of the common real-world consequences that come with that choice. How is adding some information and nuance a problem?

[notyourwork]

You are blaming the place as the issue when the reality is your choice to get married and start a family is what holds you to a place. That would apply to lots of people regardless of where they live. Painting this is a con to moving abroad isn't really, to me, not obvious. I get married to someone with family ties in a geographically disparate place to me, I should not be surprised that we will have pulls to our family.

When was the choice to get married and have kids not an obvious choice with consequences. That happens when you get married and have kids in the city you grew up in all the same as it does if you find a partner abroad. It's not abroad that I read as your issue, its your marriage and family keeping you in a place. That's obvious.

[viraptor]

They didn't say they traveled too much. Deciding to stop something doesn't mean you overdid it.

[david-gpu]

> They didn't say they traveled too much.

Indeed, that is my point: their actions did not march their narrative. They eventually realized that it wasn't all that great and corrected course.

If being abroad was such a universally positive choice as they claim, they would have remained abroad.

[Melonotromo]

You are mixing up different things and you don't get the point...

1. traveling gives you experiences. You don't need to travel constantly to learn and gain from traveling.

2. Moving away from home (abroad or to a big city) gives you again a lot of new experiences. New insights, new world view.

If i move home today, i'm a complet different person than my friends which never left and while certain things might look the same from the outside, its not.

[david-gpu]

> You are mixing up different things and you don't get the point

Of course I understand the upsides of traveling, and even moving abroad. I have done both myself. Here is the first comment I made on this thread:

>>> There are pros and cons to all possibilities, whether it is staying put, traveling as a tourist, or immigrating in a foreign country.

What most people who repeat these memes of "moving abroad gives you new experiences and perspectives" miss is all the negatives that can come with that. I have tried to inform people of some of the downsides that often come along with the positives, based on my experience and that of people I know.

If people want to stick to overly simplistic ideas about living abroad, they are free to do so. But I would feel I'm doing them a disservice if I did not warn of the downsides -- I wish somebody had told me about them before I left.

[rex_gallorum2]

Again, you are absolutely correct, and for more reasons than most casual readers here will know.

[viraptor]

"move out in their 20s-30s, see the world" does not mean "move abroad permanently". The author also didn't say it wasn't great, just that they prefered home.

[david-gpu]

Look, I speak from my own experience and what I have seen in others: young people being told that moving abroad is such a great experience and all that. The reality is that most of those people who move abroad hoping for a better future do not understand what they are really getting into -- I know I didn't.

In other words, I am trying to kindly offer a more nuanced take on what moving abroad entails. Not everybody is willing to admit that their past decisions had downsides -- we all want to make it look like we are successful and in charge of our lives. Our actions speak louder.

[yen223]

It is much better that the young person tries it and decides it's not for them, than for the young person to never try and to have that doubt gnawing at them for the rest of their life.

[david-gpu]

And why would that doubt be gnawing at them for the rest of their life? Do you think it is possible that all the rah-rah "moving abroad is great" messaging could have something to do with it?

Moving abroad is often a choice. Moving back can be a lot harder once you have a spouse and children.

[em-bee]

exactly, it is an experience that will shape their lives. in my opinion everyone should spend at least one year abroad somewhere just for the experience.

i spent 11th grade as an exchange student, so when i got a job abroad years later, i knew what i was getting into.

in between i volunteered for IAESTE, an organization that helps students get internships abroad because i believed that it would be a valuable experience more students should be able to benefit from.

[em-bee]

so it makes sense that you feel like that, but please don't try to justify your experience by claiming that everyone else feels the same.

i left when i was young and it was the greatest experience ever. i would not miss it for the world. but my motivation was not money, it was learning. when i stop learning where i am, then i move on.

eventually i may move back to where i am from, not because it's not working out or because it would have been a mistake, but because i have run out of places to go to and also because it's time to give back.

i am now old enough that i can use my experience to influence the next generation back home to open their mind more towards the world.

[david-gpu]

> so it makes sense that you feel like that, but please don't try to justify your experience by claiming that everyone else feels the same

I beg your pardon? Let me quote the very first comment I made in this thread.

>>>> There are pros and cons to all possibilities, whether it is staying put, traveling as a tourist, or immigrating in a foreign country.

This is in contrast to some of the claims made by others in this thread, such as:

> I always say to younger people that they should try to move out in their 20s-30s, see the world

> in my opinion everyone should spend at least one year abroad somewhere just for the experience.

That said, I am glad things are working out for you. I am just trying to warn people that immigration also has its downsides in spite of popular memes.

Just for curiosity, did you marry abroad? Have children abroad? Did your parents die while you lived there?

[holoduke]

The tomorrows you is a different one than the todays you. Going abroad for a few years changes your personality in a good way. The mission is complete. You can go home now.

[david-gpu]

> The mission is complete. You can go home now

My wife and children are foreigners; "moving back" would mean uprooting them.

Also, I have lived abroad for so long that my country of origin feels foreign at this point, in what is called reverse culture shock.

You reach a point where you are a foreigner wherever you are.

I'm not saying that it's all been negative; far from it. But I can't universally recommend people to try living abroad after what I've seen both personally and in other immigrants I've known over the years.

[nickd2001]

I think you're giving invaluable info here and doing a public service :) Having lived abroad a few years myself, its exciting, wonderful, broadens the mind etc, for a certain amount of time. But trade-offs emerge. Loneliness is a thing. Its difficult to make "new old friends". Well, at least, takes time! Living abroad contributed to my getting married later (back home) and being an older Dad. Marrying someone from a different country has all the issues you allude to. When I returned home I got reverse culture shock, it was tough, things had changed. Thankfully I kept in touch which some great friends, who are still there now. So grateful to them for not forgetting our friendship. I think these issues BTW, apply within one's own country too. In the UK its traditional for middle-class kids to go to another city for university. They often meet a partner there. Then bingo, one or both settle far from where they grew up. So friends and family are hours away. Now with increased costs , more people are studying nearer home cos they can't afford that. This is often reported as a bad thing but I wonder if being forced to study nearer home therefore meet a partner from nearer, may lead to higher ultimate happiness. When our kids grow up, I 100% wouldn't wanna "clip their wings" or be selfish. But, also kind of hope they don't permanently move far away. But if their true loves come from other countries, well, that's destiny I guess....

[david-gpu]

> I think these issues BTW, apply within one's own country too. [...] Then bingo, one or both settle far from where they grew up. So friends and family are hours away.

YES, absolutely. It happened to my parents and their siblings as well. And it's not something that people get into with a good understanding of the tradeoffs they are making -- it's easy to fool ourselves thinking that videoconferencing and cheap flights will magically eliminate the problem. It doesn't work like that in practice, and I made that mistake myself.

> I wonder if being forced to study nearer home therefore meet a partner from nearer, may lead to higher ultimate happiness. When our kids grow up, I 100% wouldn't wanna "clip their wings" or be selfish. But, also kind of hope they don't permanently move far away

Yeah, that mirrors my sentiment as well. Raising children while away from your extended family is tough. Rather than spending 10 years with extreme childcare responsibilities, I wish we were closer to family so that we could (a) get some hands-on experience with caretaking before raising our own kids, (b) get a couple of hours a week off from taking care of our own kids, and (c) allowing our parents to spend some quality time with their grandchildren without having to travel across continents with small kids to make it happen.

It would have been a more gentle curve spread over more time, and a chance to spend time with our extended family. Now, I've also heard there's a flip side to that, where people get sick of their relatives being too involved in how to raise their kids, etc. It's all a tradeoff.

[c_o_n_v_e_x]

>You reach a point where you are a foreigner wherever you are.

I left the US in 2009 to move to Singapore. After 14 years in SG, I moved to Australia. During my time overseas, my accent has picked up hints of Australian. When I go back to the US, one of the hardest things for me is being asked "where are you from?" I get the same question in Australia. The lack of belonging is tough.

[qmmmur]

He never said he regretted it?