[jjtheblunt]

> Apple is only "green" in their presentations - in reality they care more about inifite sales only.

needs citation. I say this as someone who worked several years in engineering at Apple, and they were extremely environmentally conscientious years before it was a thing.

[conradev]

It's not that they actively do bad things, it's that they only dedicate real resources in the direction of self-interest. Tim Cook likes to point to their solar investments and accessibility as examples of "doing good" when in reality the former is a good long term financial bet and the latter is generally under-resourced (or "cheap" to them).

They'd use M.2 SSDs in their Macs instead of soldering flash chips to the board to allow for upgradeability, but that would seriously hurt the average profit margin on their devices and (maybe) take more time to engineer.

The areas where their self-interest and the environment overlap are truly awesome, like shipping iPhones without chargers (increased margins) and in smaller paper boxes (more efficient shipping), but I don't wear rose-colored glasses about it.

They'll also never let the iPad run macOS, because if people could own one device instead of two, that would be bad for their profits. They'll keep them cleanly differentiated for as long as they can.

(I also worked in engineering at Apple!)

[hnburnsy]

> They'll also never let the iPad run macOS, because if people could own one device instead of two, that would be bad for their profits. They'll keep them cleanly differentiated for as long as they can.

They also don't have profiles on the iPad because then families could share devices which would be bad for their profits. Instead it is one iPad per person.

[brookst]

You know some rich families! I know a half dozen families with shared ipads, and not a one where each person gets their own.

[flemhans]

Sharing an iPad feels weird to me. Denmark middle class chiming in

[wodenokoto]

Haha, was about to write the same.

[dleary]

I know a number of poor US families (on food stamps/WIC) who have a tablet per child. I think it is the norm, in the US.

A cheap android tablet only costs a couple hundred bucks. That's just not that much, even for a poor family.

And that buys years of 'childcare'.

[schmorptron]

That functionality used to exist on Android, but I haven't seen it show up on the past two phones I owned. Does it still exist in stock and xiaomi just got rid of it for whatever reason?

[sigh_again]

It definitely still exists on AOSP, and most vendors still have it. Xiaomi did get rid of it. It used to be available, then only available if you "disable MIUI optimizations", then it's been entirely removed. Whether this is to force you to buy two phones, or simply as a result of how amateurish the software stack on Xiaomi phones is up to debate.

[a_JIT_pie]

Profiles available on my Oneplus 7 Pro and my Pixel 8 (that is running GrapheneOS though).

[FirmwareBurner]

> (maybe) take more time to engineer

Apple, the richest company in the world, who spends millions in money and engineering hours on stuff like making sure the packaging having the right neutral smell, and the box sliding out with the right amount of friction when you open it, and on security teams/mercenaries able to pull family members of workers from warzones, and you're telling me they have to nickel and dime their HW team for routing an NVME slot on the board instead of soldering the NAND chips because that would cost some more engineering time?

Thanks for the chuckle, I loved it. I think Apple spends more on toilet paper or hand soap in a month than the effort would cost their HW engineers to do that.

[ferbivore]

It's to reduce unit costs, not engineering costs. They integrated an NVMe controller into the SoC and they can now just buy NAND chips instead of full SSDs.

Soldering them to the board is just an asshole thing to do though, especially since these machines can't boot off of USB if the NAND dies. Surely some elastomer BGA sockets wouldn't cost that much. There's no sane explanation other than they're doing it so you have to buy a new Mac to get more storage.

[Wytwwww]

> It's to reduce unit costs

The increase in per unit cost probably would be entirely insignificant and minuscule compared to the revenue they'd lose by not being able to charge predatory prices for storage upgrades. So it would be a secondary or a tertiary concern at best..

[7speter]

There was a whole fiasco with Toyota Camries maybe 15 or so years ago where the brakes would go out. It turned out that Toyota skimped out on thick enough wires or wire insulation and either the wire connecting the brakes to the pedal wore out or the insulation wore out and caused the brake wire to short. They chose the wiring they did to save something like 2 cents a unit (each Camry).

[conradev]

Turns out that they put the NAND chips on a removable card!

https://x.com/SnazzyLabs/status/1854959732228079714

[dwaite]

My laptop repair count went way down (from 3 a year to one every 5 years) once chips no longer had the ability to become unseated. I think it is a reliability boon and a repair cost savings, not an up-front cost savings.

[yndoendo]

Working IT consulting for about 5 years, I have never experienced an end user with an unseated chip, not even on my personal products.

Irony, of all laptop I have owned, the most problematic was the Apple PowerBook. It's screen became defected a month or two after the warranty ended. The external VGA connection had issues and might require a couple restarts to get a signal. It could barely be used as a desktop computer. Even though I used it to write my first production software solution. It was ditched as soon as financially possible.

[AnthonyMouse]

> They integrated an NVMe controller into the SoC and they can now just buy NAND chips instead of full SSDs.

What they/everyone really ought to do is to standardize that, with the flash chips themselves still connected via a modular connector and the "NVMe controller" as open source.

Imagine integrating the flash ECC/RAIN with ZFS et al. Or the ability to decide for yourself if you want a lot of QLC or a bit of SLC or a mix of both, in software at runtime.

[brookst]

Sockets fail more than solder.

[FirmwareBurner]

SSD NAND ahs a shorter lifespan than sockets.

[brookst]

Failure rates are multiplicative, not concurrent. If I have a car with an engine that lasts on average 200k miles, adding a transmission that fails on average at 300k miles results in a vehicle with a MTBF of less than 200k miles.

[thejazzman]

They can boot off Thunderbolt, though

[wtallis]

As far as I know, they can't. Why would Thunderbolt be special?

At least some portion of an operating system's bootloader chain must be installed to the internal storage, because that's all the firmware knows how to read (unlike Wintel PCs where there's a UEFI driver providing USB storage stack support). That bootloader running from internal storage is then free to enumerate external storage devices to locate the rest of the OS it is trying to load.

[harikb]

:) but we take it that you are not disagreeing on the first part of their claim?

That said, I have bought many cheap Windows PCs/Laptop in my lifetime and I have only ever upgraded them once and they also don't last as long. Somehow... I don't feel shouting at Apple. These things do last a bit longer...

[xuki]

The engineer that developed AirDrop released an unofficial update because Apple would not support older Mac despite it was developed and tested on that very machine: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/s/gYXcHRGP4d

If that’s not planned obsolescence I don’t know what it is.

[lynx23]

Funny how accessibility seems to be both. Too complex and manpower-sucking to actually fully support, and cheap, because someone need his argument to work. As a VoiceOver (blind) iOS user (since 13 years or so) I submit you are underestimating the complexity of something like shipping a screen reader for every device you put out. Yes, there are days where I hope the Accessibility Team had more resources to fix obviously long-standing issues, but that doesn't let me forget what a gracius gesture it originally was to say "Fuck ROI, we're going to be the first to do this."

[conradev]

The entire organization is very small. The work is complex, yes. They get to work early on their new platforms, which is great planning and prioritization. All great stuff.

But if it took an organization 1,500 people strong, like Maps and Siri did, I’m not so sure the Apple of today would do it.

The praise goes first to the hard working engineers and managers who deeply care about this stuff, and second to management is all I’m saying.

For context, I built the Shortcuts app!

(edit: AX is also a much broader effort, because it improves usability for everyone on the ability spectrum, and it digs into design, too. So I do think it does have a more foundational role because Apple is still at its core a design-driven company. I think of all of the effort to make the apps usable at all text sizes, for example. The easier to use the products are for more people, the more people will buy them. There are less inherent trade-offs in AX than with the environment/carbon, where selling fewer devices is in direct conflict with sustainability goals.)

[conradev]

10/10/24 update: they’re actually removable!

https://x.com/SnazzyLabs/status/1854959732228079714

[fragmede]

And dosdude1 has already shown that you can (if you can resolder bgas) upgrade the storage.

https://youtu.be/cJPXLE9uPr8

[rowanG077]

I think it's extremely overestimated by the technical crowd how many people would ever upgrade their RAM or SSD in their Macbook. I honestly doubt it's even in the single digit percentage points. The energy, engineering and material wasted on having connectors probably vastly outweighs the environmental savings by having that one tech person upgrade their RAM or SSD,

[Reason077]

> "I think it's extremely overestimated by the technical crowd how many people would ever upgrade their RAM or SSD in their Macbook."

Back in the day when this was possible (iBooks, Powerbooks, early-model MacBooks), I'd say that a large percentage of Mac laptops eventually did get upgraded. I certainly upgraded 100% of the Macs I owned and also did many for friends and family. Some models made upgrades quite easy: the RAM slots, especially, were often accessible without special tools. It was common to buy the base model Mac with the fastest CPU, then install your own RAM modules and big HDD/SSD to save money. Swapping HDDs out for SSDs was also, of course, a huge performance upgrade for a while.

Even non-technical users who wouldn't upgrade their Macs on their own would often trade them in to dealers/resellers who would refurbish and upgrade them for resale.

[conradev]

I bought an M1 Max with a 2TB SSD, but I’m running up against the capacity and I want more storage. The computer is still plenty fast. Normally, I’d upgrade my computer and continue using it, but now I need to sell it and get a new one to get more storage. Not to mention the carbon cost of doing that, these things are $4000!

Further, when I buy a new one, I’m now incentivized to over-provision it based on my current needs by that same logic.

OWC has an entire business around this (for older Macs): https://www.owc.com/

Photos and videos get larger each year with larger sensors, so it can be hard to predict future usage if you take a lot of those.

[kridsdale3]

I have the same Mac and problem.

I used OWC parts to make a 16 TB m2 SSD array that connects over Thunderbolt. It's fast enough to edit 8K footage, just like the internal disk. Look for the 4-bay Thunderbolt enclosure on Amazon. I did add extra cooling (heatsinks on the modules, and a bigger fan).

Total cost was about $2000.

[codersfocus]

You could buy an SD card that goes up to 2TB and keep it permanently in your macbook using a shortened version like so:

https://www.adafruit.com/product/1569

[conradev]

I have one of those suckers, but the read/write performance is nowhere near the multi GB/s speeds of the NAND. Could be useful for archival, but it wasn’t great for blockchain indexing or running VMs.

USB4 can hit those speeds, but then you’re in dongle town.

[dzhiurgis]

Same here, these cards suck. Even loading an mp3 takes few seconds, it's insane.

[numpad0]

Agreed, it's just minority of users trying to defer extra $2500 upfront, and also about managing RAM capacity arms race. There is no engineering reason a laptop has to be upgraded _later_ to e.g. 8way/192GB/6TB configuration.

That said, I do think upgradable laptops are important as a resistance force against constant upgrades and planned obsolescence; if you could hypothetically add 2x32GB DDR4-2100 to a decade old ThinkPad and run stolen Apple Intelligence LLM just fine, the humanity wouldn't need $5k worth of labor wasted on one laptop per person per year.

[guappa]

There's no engineering reason that makes RAM on apple computers cost much more than market prices. But it's convenient to apple…

[rowanG077]

Completely custom chip? Best webcams? Extremely tidy internals. Insane audio. You can hate on apple for many reasons but that their hardware is top class and this will demand much more engineering cost is really clear.

[hajile]

Apple wants $1200 for a 4TB SSD. I'm sure a LOT of people would gladly pay $300 for a top-end SSD of the same size and pay someone to install it for $100 and still save $800 on the price of the machine.

[indymike]

The article is about the desktop iMac model. Regardless, I think many would upgrade because ssds are cheap... RAM would lead to customers getting another year or two out of their computer...

[rbanffy]

Its very easy to upgrade storage on any desktop machine - my Mac Mini has a couple external drives attached to it. In the case of an iMac, a little Velcro tape would even hide them behind the screen.

[7speter]

Yet, Macbooks had upgradeable ram and storage upto about 12 or 13 years ago.

[guappa]

Yeah I bought some extra RAM for my old macbook (which wasn't old at the time).

It was even easy to do it, no need to take it all apart. There was a lid behind the battery.

Remember that for people who used computers in that period, opening a computer to replace a component was a completely normal operation.

[Tepix]

Just look at the latest iMac M4. Going from 256GB SSD to 512GB costs 230€. Going from 256GB to 1TB costs 460€. The smallest model isn't offered with 2TB (or more). The upgrade from 512GB to 2TB on the better model costs 690€

You're saying few people would buy the 256GB model and pop in a fast 2TB M.2 SSD for 103€ if they could?

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

You can tell they're full of shit because they can't stop tooting the green horn. It's self evident.

If they made their devices repairable, easily resellable, etc. then they wouldn't have to greenwash.

[Kirby64]

I’ll bite: what about their devices is not easily resellable? Sure seems easy to factory reset basically anything Apple, and their resale values hold up a lot better than most devices.

[reaperman]

Apple Silicon MacBook's are actually a bit difficult to truly factory reset. In a divorce I ended up with an M1 MBP that was first set up using my ex-wife's AppleID, but was primarily my laptop. Her administrator account was deleted, my AppleID was shown in all the system setting menus that I could see in the operating system, and "FindMy" on her phone at least was not tracking its location.

Two years later I updated my login password and then promptly forgot the exact punctuation of the new password. I ended up getting completely locked out of the laptop with no self-service options to fix anything.

That day I learned that you have to boot into a special mode to truly factory reset, not just delete the administrator accounts with other AppleIDs. I was able to get Apple to remotely unlock the computer for me, but only because I could "prove" it was mine by sending them the original invoice slip from store.apple.com with my name, email, and the serial number of the laptop on it.

But that invoice slip is literally a piece of paper in a box, and you can't access it yourself after 18 months - I had to call into Apple support and get them to email me a new copy because it had been longer than 18 months.

If I had purchased the laptop from someone else on craigslist 2 years prior and then got locked out, I would be completely shit-out-of-luck, because I wouldn't be able to prove I truly owned it.

[wtallis]

I think the key thing to check is that the device is no longer shown on the previous owner's iCloud account when checking through the website. It's Apple's servers that you have to ensure no longer hold any association between that machine and an iCloud account that you don't have the credentials for, because the activation lock that survives a complete erase of the machine is implemented server-side.

[tgma]

That is an iCloud lock thing that you need to worry about, but aside from antitheft issue, it’s actually quite nice to reinstall the OS on an Apple Silicon Mac because it behaves like an iOS device. You can simply use Apple Configurator or an open source tool on Linux to DFU restore the device. It’s faster than installing OS by booting into recovery mode.

[philistine]

Even easier than that; Macs now have a restore to factory settings workflow.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/102664

With the way modern macOS is immutable and exactly the same on all machines thanks to signed and sealed images, no one needs to DFU to reset a Mac unless there is something very wrong.

[dwaite]

Sounds like your issue wasn't with factory resetting, but with the anti-theft features.

The factory reset process is simple. Proving ownership (and transfer of ownership) for getting around anti-theft lockouts is not.

[_mlbt]

Exactly! My iPhone 12 Mini is actually worth replacing the battery in. I could do that and still turn a profit reselling it, or continue using it for a couple more years before it actually becomes obsolete and unusable.

[gtvwill]

I factory reset a 2012 Mac book pro that was needed for a client to use to check emails and use the web browser. Device was instantly blocked by Apple from accessing most websites because the factory version of the OS was deemed insecure by Apple. This included blocking the updater from being able to update the device via the web to a safe version of the OS that was available. What was supposed to be a 1 hour service became about 4 hours of me reading online trying to work out wtf was going on. Then I had to spend time navigating my way around the nightmare of distro hopping it up OS updates manually til it got to the most recent "safe" supported os version.

Device works completely fine and lives behind a well secured network (battery was stuffed but it lives plugged in). Apple took it upon themselves to dictate to the user that it was no longer fit for operation. Apples solution was "replace the device and send the old one to landfil.

Apple literally greenwash their entire business model. But they are one of the most wasteful companies around.

Meanwhile I'm still reformatting 8, 12 and 15 year old windows pcs with Linux and putting them back into service for email checking and basic web browsing without a single hiccup. Saving more and more from landfil, they get used once in a blue moon but it's literally all the owners want. They don't mind waiting a bit for stuff to turn on, hell plenty of them are over 60, they've spend their life being patient and a few mins to make a cuppa while something turns on is a blessing to them.

[astrange]

> Device was instantly blocked by Apple from accessing most websites because the factory version of the OS was deemed insecure by Apple.

Is that your way of saying "it doesn't support any modern SSL ciphers?" I don't think there is anything built into the OS that asks Apple if it's allowed to visit websites.

[gtvwill]

Well given it was both the update app and the web browser, not just the web browser. It's definitely built in. Unless their app updater/software updater is just safari with an overlay.

[Kirby64]

Why can't you just put Linux on the Macbook then? Most 12-15 year old laptops are not capable of running the current version of Windows, either, and have major vulnerabilities.

[gtvwill]

Because the client is >55 in age and isn't a fan of change. They want what they are used to. Other clients who are more open to learning definitely and have in the past gotten linux. Huge fan of using it for bringing life back to old hardware. Some clients are however very abrasive towards the idea of a different OS/Interface/Change.

[ferbivore]

Not sure if this is what they meant, but from what I've heard, lots of companies send "obsolete" devices to recyclers without disabling Activation Lock. Not really Apple's fault, but if they added a last-resort way to wipe devices they could cut down on a lot of waste. I'm somewhat skeptical that locking does anything to deter thieves anyway.

[ben_w]

They don't strictly need to greenwash even despite the difficulties with repairing their devices. They talk about green stuff because that's what they want to be, for whatever reason.

[mikae1]

> They talk about green stuff because that's what they want to be, for whatever reason.

How else would the conscious consumer justify another marginal hardware update?

[ben_w]

> How else would the conscious consumer justify another marginal hardware update?

I don't even know how they do it with all of that.

None of the changes between successive versions of the iPhone — ever — have felt like good value for money to me. I get new ones when the old ones break. Then again, I am a weird outlier in economic things, and I've known that since I was a teen.

I'd ask if people really are so much more interested in signalling green than being green, but of course I know they do — an old flame campaigned Green in the US, despite also having a big thing about supporting the striking coal miners in the UK (that happened before she was born).

[v1ne]

Using an M2 SSD instead of soldering the chip on board has more implications: PCB gets physically larger, and takes more power or has less performance talking to the SSD. Heat transfer is also worse. I completely understand why they go for a soldered SSD chip.

One way of true environmentally-friendly innovation could have been to find a way to attach the SSD chip so that a user could safely replace it, though, with little additional space.

[AnthonyMouse]

> PCB gets physically larger, and takes more power or has less performance talking to the SSD. Heat transfer is also worse.

I don't think these are real problems. The M.2 device would take up space you could have used for the PCB, but then you would have had to use that PCB space for the chips that are on the SSD.

The SSDs in current Macbooks do around 3GB/s. NVMe Gen5 does 14GB/s. The speed-of-light latency from any kind of connector is going to be totally irrelevant compared to the latency of the flash controller itself. There is no performance concern. Power is the same; when idle the link goes to sleep, when in use the connector is negligible compared to the device itself.

Heat transfer doesn't even seem related. If you want to improve heat transfer from the SSD then you put it into thermal contact with a heatsink or the chassis, which you can do regardless of whether it's M.2 or not.

> One way of true environmentally-friendly innovation could have been to find a way to attach the SSD chip so that a user could safely replace it, though, with little additional space.

The only real space requirement is the size of the connector itself, which is on the order of 50 square mm in a PCB which in a 12" laptop is some tens of thousands of square mm. <0.5% is "little additional space" to begin with.

Obviously you could design a connector which is even smaller, but the premise would have to be that that's even a real problem.

[shiroiushi]

M.2 devices save space on a PCB: yes, the connector itself takes some room, but the alternative is sticking all those chips on the PCB itself, and those chips take up more space (just look at any M.2 NVMe drive). The M.2 form factor is moving those things off the main PCB, and onto a daughterboard that usually sits directly on top of it and parallel to it.

The idea that a PCB gets larger with an M.2 slot is truly insane.

[wtallis]

Even on desktop motherboards, the space under a M.2 slot is usually nearly empty. On laptop motherboards, it is almost always completely empty save for possibly a thermal pad. Some laptops position the M.2 slot to have the SSD extend beyond the edge of the motherboard. But in either case, laptops are not reducing PCB footprint by using M.2 SSDs, because nothing gets stacked under the SSD; that space is reserved for the SSD.

[conradev]

Yes! I forgot that the NVMe controller is on-die. I want some way to swap the NAND chips. Reminds me of this video:

https://youtu.be/KRRNR4HyYaw

For an iMac, though, they have a bigger thermal envelope and no battery. It seems more reasonable. Apple even did the software engineering necessary to support the Mac Pro.

That would be Apple’s counter-argument right there. Want Linux on your M1? Get a Mac, not an iPad. Want swappable storage? Get a Mac Pro, not an iMac.

[Aaron2222]

This video[0] claims to show such a mod to a MacBook.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3N-z-Y8cuw

[thrtythreeforty]

That is some gorgeous PCB work. And goes to show that JLCPCB (you can tell from the order number) is perfectly usable for applications needing a controller impedance stackup.

[romanobro56]

“They only dedicate real resources in the direction of self interest”

Wow, it’s almost like they are a publicly traded company with a legal obligation to do so!

[burnte]

> Wow, it’s almost like they are a publicly traded company with a legal obligation to do so!

This is an amazingly common misconception about fiduciary responsibility to share holders. Nowhere in the law does it state that they must seek profit and shareholder value at all costs, above all other concerns, regardless of the impact. Companies are absolutely allowed to do things that are not 100% aligned with self interest. Many companies routinely do such things like charitable giving, excellent customer service, expensive processes that make the product more recyclable or repairable, etc.

[anticensor]

Aktienbolaget in Sweden are a notable exception there. Even they find ways to do things beyond profit while profiting, not just for profit.

[piyuv]

You know, keeping the planet we live on alive is also self interest.

[mihaaly]

(... just silently, with a shy look: perhaps could make and distribute much much less fast obsoleting electronic devices then?... just an idea...)

[anticensor]

Court enforceable (immediate or imminent) vs. activism required (long term or indirect) distinction enters the picture there.

[throwaway48476]

Of course. But it's hypocritical to then pretend like they care about the environment when they manifestly don't.

[mihaaly]

I wonder how many offended Apple employees and dedicated fans hang around this article, but seeing the number of grey comments being a bit sceptical about the overall efficiency of Apple environmentalism there most be more than one. ; ) But maybe still less than the number of electronics mass produced, sparing no efforts and resources, to supply mass(es of) consumers, the world!

[throwaway48476]

We live in a sick society where peoples identities are intertwined with their consumer choices and they feel personally attacked by criticism of a megacorporstion. An engineer is more likely to be aware of design tradeoffs and skeptical of marketing fluff.

[7speter]

It boggles my mind that there are legions of people like this who will defend mega corporations for free. If you're gonna gaslight for a trillion dollar corporation, at least get paid to do it.

[reaperducer]

I wonder how many offended Apple employees and dedicated fans hang around this article, but seeing the number of grey comments being a bit sceptical about the overall efficiency of Apple environmentalism there most be more than one. ; )

Maybe people are just tired of the same old low-quality axe grinding that fills the HN comments section every time any story appears about Apple.

This whole page is filled with people rehashing 15-year-old complaints, moaning about computers other than the one in the article, and generally turning the whole thing into yet another off-topic bitch session.

You can put together a BINGO sheet for HN comments any time there is a story about Apple ("walled garden!"), Google ("graveyard!"), Microsoft ("Micro$oft!"), or Adobe ("subscription!").

It's old. It's boring. It's off-topic. It is rightly downvoted.

[saagarjha]

Always relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23003595

[mihaaly]

You forget to list 'it is not true' as the reason for downwote, my child!

(no, you did not forget, you had no such reason, only that you are bored or some are even offended by others do not like what is grown to be precious while done with a megaload of pretention and are not tired of pointing it out. Like a fella closeby, participating in distributing billions of electronics using a sizeable chunk of Earth's resources, then is proud of not throwing away each and every vessel he/she drank out of on the campus. And does not see the galactic inbalance. Does not want to, I suspect. Happy with the rigtheous image put on like a t-shirt. Being bored is no fucking mandate to make actions or criticize in this free discussion. Your bored sensitivity is insignificant in the subject, try to grow up, be adult and see the significant part of picture too and take seriously what is serious - unlike your boredom - instead of trying to wrap reality around your lack of amusement, please. People like yourself yield to pretentious greediness preserving a problem with willfull an intentional ignorance make problems 'old' - but definitely not boring. Would you care please yawn a huge one and downvote anything of a different an even bigger and even older 'boring' problem like child poverty for example? Just as an instance, there are mountains of 'old' and 'boring' problems you could consider boring and righful of shut about it! :( Before biting on details or analogies, the subject of criticism is the ignorant and egocentric mentality you represent, not the randdom elements came accross.)

[conradev]

I did not say that it’s bad or wrong or changeable.

I was actually just trying to explain that the internal feelings of employees are not the driving force, even if those feelings are real and deeply felt.

[tjoff]

The iMac are the perfect example though. The horror of putting a DVI/HDMI port on that thing seemed so horrendous that they'd rather let the whole thing go to waste. Reading OP it seems like this has been corrected? But generation of generation of devices didn't have any sensible reason to exist.

Apple is also the king of integrated batteries. First with phones, then with laptops. I'm still baffled they got away with this. Such mindless waste at an incredible scale.

Being extremely environmentally conscientious while designing the packaging isn't going to offset that.

[jrmg]

This would require additional hardware in every iMac sold.

Many people (I suspect the vast majority) would not reuse the iMacs as displays.

Would the total amount of extra hardware inside discarded iMacs (those not used as displays) be less than the amount of hardware saved by reuse of the others?

[alpaca128]

> Many people [...] would not reuse the iMacs as displays.

They could resell them as displays, given the resale value of Apple devices that might not be unpopular. If Apple actually cared they could easily add the hardware necessary. Would it cost them a few bucks more? Sure, but that's what choosing environment over maximum profit means.

Or they could at least make it easy to modify so tinkerers can quickly turn it into a display without having to destroy the case or something.

[troupo]

> This would require additional hardware in every iMac sold.

Hardware that costs a few cents at Apple's volumes and adds about 1mm of thickness and 2g of weight.

Also, it's standard hardware

[tjoff]

Definitely.

Would it affect apples bottom line if they couldn't prevent people from reusing their displays? You bet.

[kev009]

The citation is common sense.. if your business is consumerism, you are by definition the opposite of "green". Putting some idiots on stage every year to carefully gesticulate to soft music about how "green" creating immense amounts of industrial waste are and thinking it is real is getting high on your own supply.

[7speter]

It's green as long as you give them your previous Apple product and buy a new one to replace it.

[kev009]

That's not how entropy works.

[Daz1]

Define "consumerism"

[kev009]

There is very little change from one iPhone to the next but very much marketing which underscores the true intentions. The business model is built on a revolving demand cycle that is unrelated to long term thinking, maintainability, efficiency, nor sustainability. One may argue well that Apple is better than the other players in the field but it doesn't undercut the overall impact of producing incredibly complex and rapidly obsoleting assemblies. It's not just soldering some chips to a board and snapping it together, each individual component potentially has global impact as the raw materials and finished pieces move into their final form. The magnitude of what is going on is not immediately intuitive unless you are an insider or read a well researched book like "The One Device: The Secret History of the iPhone"

The fundamental problem, which is out of sight out of mind from the consumer, is how much energy is required to produce and move assemblies around. See also the automotive industry, where the "green" thing to do is drive and maintain older vehicles for a long time.

And to be honest, this doesn't bother me that much, but if I'm not on the take as an engineer I have no particular qualms punching through the bullshit smokescreens as a customer of a company that takes my money. The attention and empathy fatigue of the bullshit does take away from things that do matter such as national versus international manufacturing.

[Daz1]

>There is very little change from one iPhone to the next

Visually, sure. Under the hood? Wrong.

>The business model is built on a revolving demand cycle that is unrelated to long term thinking, maintainability, efficiency, nor sustainability.

Sorry you need to qualify this statement. An iPhone 6S is still completely usable and almost certain to be in a functional condition assuming it has been looked after correctly. That's a 8-9 year old phone. Meanwhile my 2001 phone was hopelessly outdated e-waste in 2007.

[babarjaana]

No way that any technologically competent person can claim that the iPhone 16 is a massive and amazing improvement over the iPhone 15. There is "change", sure - the chip is now every so slightly faster, it can do "AI things", it can take slightly better photos, etc. But any comparison of these changes with the previous model for an average use case - which is what most people buy iPhones for, not benchmarking - would hardly yield any visible differences. Scrolling through reddit or HN or Instagram is about the same on both devices, and gaming gives you a few more frames if you care about that sort of thing, and I say that as someone with those exact models. Apple could have easily skipped releasing a new model this year, packaged exactly the same hardware and released the iPhone 16 the next year and fundamentally nothing would've changed. But the shareholders won't like that, will they?

[Daz1]

>No way that any technologically competent person can claim that the iPhone 16 is a massive and amazing improvement over the iPhone 15.

Kicking off with a logical fallacy, strong start.

>There is "change", sure - the chip is now every so slightly faster, it can do "AI things", it can take slightly better photos, etc.

Just say you're technologically uninformed.

>But any comparison of these changes with the previous model for an average use case

Kathy using Instagram while she waits in line at the supermarket is not a useful point of comparison when we're comparing iterative improvements, keep up.

>Apple could have easily skipped releasing a new model this year, packaged exactly the same hardware and released the iPhone 16 the next year and fundamentally nothing would've changed.

What an absolutely ridiculous statement.

>But the shareholders won't like that, will they?

Low IQ statement.

[kev009]

I don't feel like I need to, the referenced book or a cursory look into the rare mineral trade and shipping industry would be more useful for anyone actually interested. If the 6S is still useful, the fact I can't remember the last time seeing anyone with a phone more than 5 years old kind of speaks for itself to the fashion aspect the business has built for itself.

[lofenfew]

modern apps will demand a modern os and even if you already installed apps they will often cease working.

[matrix2003]

I send all my old stuff for recycling now and get a gift card in return. They just did this for my ancient iPad that won’t even run the latest iPadOS.

I go on a site, pop in the serial number, and they ship me a box for free with a return label.

I basically got $45 for an incredibly slow brick, so I’d say that’s pretty good incentive for their recycling program.

Sure, you could install Linux and upcycle it, but how many people are actually going to do that? I think the recycling program is actually great for the 95%+ of people and how they use their devices.

[zh3]

Not in the UK; my iPad was unreliable from the off, eventually it was crashing 4 minutes after starting it. Trying to trade it in just got a message along the lines of "It can still have a good second life, go find a responsible recycler and give it to them. Have a Nice Day!".

Unlikely to ever buy an Apple product again.

[matrix2003]

Are other companies much better in this regard?

[zh3]

It was disappointing to get unreliable hardware from a supposedly premium vendor, but it happens. It was the attitude and service that turned me off Apple though, not the hardware (which really should be more reliable than cheaper alternatives).

[hcarvalhoalves]

Can you share the instructions on how to do that?

[dialup_sounds]

He's literally just talking about Apple's trade-in program.

https://www.apple.com/recycling/nationalservices/

[matrix2003]

Yep! This is exactly it.

[waynecochran]

It's simple. I have a old iMac w a 5K screen. I would like to just but a now Mac Mini and keep using my iMac as a monitor. Instead my 5K iMac will end up in a landfill. Which is less green.

[7speter]

You could put Linux on it and use it as a sort of jukebox, or any multitude of other things. You could also send it to me if you aren't interested in doing any of that :)

[mlyle]

I use Linux on mine. It's a bummer that the magic to send over 2 eDP tiled at 5k resolution was never open-sourced, so you can only send 4k and it ends up slightly blurry.

[waynecochran]

I'd love to put Linux on it, but one of the main reasons I use Linux is for CUDA programming and you can't even put an nVidia card in a Mac these days.

[nextos]

New Mac Minis are coming later on this week, apparently, and they will also have M4 CPUs.

[tomcam]

With respect, then, why do you think iPhone or iPad batteries can’t be replaced by the average user after a decade and a half?

[Schiendelman]

Waterproofing. It really is that simple. The math would never work out trading that for easy replaceability. And every average user can get a shop to replace their battery.

[shiroiushi]

The old Samsung Galaxy S5 was waterproof and had a user-replaceable battery, so your argument doesn't hold water.

[Gigachad]

Waterproofing isn't a yes/no feature. Modern phones are way more waterproof and dust resistant than the S5. The plastic back on the S5 would quickly develop cracks that would let water in.

[shiroiushi]

Sure, it wasn't perfect, but it showed that it can be done, and it's not particularly difficult either. An improved design could have a metal back panel instead of plastic, it could use screws instead of plastic snaps, etc. (And with most people using cases, who cares about visible screws?)

[Schiendelman]

It was really not waterproof. It was IP67, which is far from the IP68 almost all phones have today. https://phandroid.com/2014/04/21/galaxy-s5-ip67-meaning/

[qup]

If it's waterproof and you get the water on the inside, it should in fact hold water

[tomcam]

I thought waterproofing came late to iPhones, like version 7 or 8. What would the reason be before that given environmentalism as a strong motivator?

[dwaite]

Getting a professional who will properly dispose of a battery is more environmentally conscious, and supports the local economy?

[philistine]

For the same reason I can't replace the battery on my electric car (not the 9V one). Because the car maker made that choice, for a myriad of good and bad reasons. What's your point?

[saintfire]

I would think the point was already made: The decision is not environmentally friendly.

That aside, comparing a phone battery to an high-voltage high-amperage battery is a bit of an apples to oranges.

[tomcam]

I feel you. I just bought an exceptionally boring car in large part because it is meant to be largely user-serviceable. Sorry you got stuck with that problem.

My point was that GP made a strong assertion that didn’t quite bear up to scrutiny IMHO:

> I say this as someone who worked several years in engineering at Apple, and they were extremely environmentally conscientious years before it was a thing.

It seems to me that an “extremely environmentally conscientious” company would place a much higher priority on serviceability. But I am very open to contrary reasoning and I don’t know any Apple engineers. This was a rare opportunity.

I hasten to say that Apple products are so good I overlook this disadvantage, but then I don’t describe myself as extremely environmentally conscientious.

[talldayo]

If you need a citation to understand, then nothing will get through to you. Apple glued in their batteries before "it was a thing" and implemented parts pairing DRM "before it was a thing" too. Whatever era you worked at Apple during, the company is changed now and has been changed for over a decade. Their modern rhetoric proves they detest the Reduce, reuse, recycle hierarchy that defines how "green" is and has been defined. You can prove that Apple is anti-green through basic examination of their modern business model:

- They deliberately limit the functionality of devices unsupported by their first-party services (eg. App Store and Safari) which prevents reduction of new hardware required. Third-parties are prevented from offering serious and lasting alternatives.

- They've systematically prevented repair of both their laptop and phone hardware, obviating the "reuse" part of the cycle. In their current scheme, independent repair shops are deliberately and unnecessarily cut off from the parts they need to repair Apple hardware at-cost.

- Their stance towards recycling is asinine and insidious. Since store owners can't recycle partially-broken hardware as donor boards and users can't extend the use of their devices once iOS stops supporting them, Apple graciously offers to take your valuable hardware for free and destroy it for parts or materials for their own benefit. Users aren't expected to want any better and instead are supposed to thank Apple for pocketing their broken hardware to pay for Carbon Credits and Mother Nature spotlights.

Apple's "serious" dedication to the environment is a joke, and the cracks have been showing for a while. They prioritize obstinate and unnecessary proprietary features instead of differentiating themselves through natural competition on their merits. If it wasn't for regulatory concern Apple would continue abusing the environment and people like you would keep defending Apple regardless.

This is bad. I expect better.

[FirmwareBurner]

>I say this as someone who worked several years in engineering at Apple, and they were extremely environmentally conscientious years before it was a thing.

Then please tell us why they can't put a HDMI/DP input on the iMac to be usable as an external monitor when the internal computer dies or just to be used as a secondary monitor?

Or why the SSD NAND on Macbooks needs to be soldered when a guy on youtube managed to hack an NVME connector on the motherboard to make the storage replaceable and expandable? What are the reasons other than driving more sales of new devices when old ones break?

Because they're clearly not technical limitations and without any substantiated info from your side, your comment just reads more like astroturfing ("Apple is so conscious, trust me bro I worked there").

[wtallis]

> when a guy on youtube managed to hack an NVME connector on the motherboard to make the storage replaceable and expandable?

Link? I've seen several instances of third-party repair shops doing BGA swaps to replace the NAND with larger packages from other Apple products. I've seen one instance of somebody making a pair of custom boards, one soldering down to the original NAND BGA pads to provide a slot, and the other board slotting into that one to hold the scavenged BGA packages in an easily-replaced module. But I haven't seen anyone retrofit an off the shelf NVMe device to operate as primary storage for an Apple Silicon machine.

[zeusk]

Because as a customer you should probably buy a studio display and Mac mini if that's your use case.

[brailsafe]

There are a ton of older iMacs on the used market, and if you have one, it's a fair complaint that you can no longer re-purpose it for whatever else you like. Ideally if I got a mac mini I'd just hook it up to the screen I already have, rather than spending another $2k on the only other option the brand sells.

Additionally, not having that option lets the manufacturer have control over how much value a product retains after it's useful life. Apple already does this in a number of different ways, and it's disgraceful. iPad too old to get new updates? Recycle, it's not like your backup included the versions that did work for your OS version, can't do much with the hardware. Battery dead? Recycle! Already have a 5k iMac but want Mac Studio for more performance? Well you better like spending a whole lot more for exactly no new value.

[zeusk]

Just because the device is too slow for you does not make the device useless in totality. What are you going to ask for next? HDMI-in port on the iPad and MacBook so you can use it as a display when the internals are outdated?

[brailsafe]

> Just because the device is too slow for you does not make the device useless in totality.

Exactly, and it would be even less useless in totality if the screen was still feasible to use on its own.

> HDMI-in port on the iPad and MacBook so you can use it as a display when the internals are outdated?

Now that you mention it, I would like to use my old iPad as a second screen, since it's a mobile form factor already and is otherwise nearly useless for no intrinsic reason. But for the iMac, which is obviously a stationary large screen in an appealing enclosure, it would be a returning feature with a standard TB 4/5 port and cable, like it was originally with TB1.

[oarsinsync]

I’ve been asking for this on laptops since 2003.

[FirmwareBurner]

"My use case" of ...*squints*... not throwing amazing and still functional monitors in the trash because the computer part in them is obsolete/dead and keep reusing them instead? How rude of me to reject Apple's marketing NPC programming and use common sense instead.

How about Apple just puts the 2 cent connector & PHY, and let the users who paid for the device decide how they want to use the product. Gaslighting people with the "you're holding/using it wrong" argument today is just .. I can't even express anymore without breaking HN rules.

[shiroiushi]

>Gaslighting people with the "you're holding/using it wrong" argument today is just .. I can't even express anymore without breaking HN rules.

Yet people who complain about this "gaslighting" from Apple continue to buy Apple products.

[zeusk]

and yet you continue to moan about your NPC problem when the right product for you already exists?

[harywilke]

I remember, long time ago in 1990, when apple switched to brown boxes for environmental reasons.

[rty32]

Citation: MacBook Pro with 8GB memory, starting at $1,599, on sale right now.

[guappa]

Planned obsolescence is bad for the environment.

[tsunamifury]

Classic apple worker, missing the forest from the trees. You were bamboozled into making your products greener while forcing customers to buy more and more of them.

Come on are you really that unaware?