WFH only is low quality experience for me. No close bonding. Just zoom calls. Hybrid/Flex is the way to go I think. No need to be in the office 100%, but show up if you can.
> WFH only is low quality experience for me. No close bonding. Just zoom calls. Hybrid/Flex is the way to go I think. No need to be in the office 100%, but show up if you can.
I think Hybrid/Flex is the way to go, rather than pure WFH, because of the social connections, BUT it's also utterly pointless with distributed teams.
I'm on a distributed team. I have to fucking go into the office to fucking zoom from there. Plus it's a hoteling setup, so it's even hard to know who's around and my workspace is always a little off.
We have the same. I'm not sure if it's something built into humans but it turns out very much like the lunchroom at school, where the same people gravitate to the same areas/desks. I've probably sat in one of the same four desks for the past year and know all the people around me.
Also share in your experience that I'm going into Zoom with my team on a different coast, or other teams across the world. I'm the only one at my hq. I was thinking about this the other day and it's actually kinda nice - the people around me are on different teams so I get to talk to them about their work and I don't have deal with my team complaining endlessly about our problems! :)
Before COVID I worked for a big multinational that got rid of all meeting rooms because they realised people could just have meetings at their desks. It was all open plan "hot desking". You'd literally have people transporting their sack of meat upwards of 50 miles each day just to sit at a desk on Skype all day talking to people on the other side the room. I found it particularly amusing when two people on the same call would be sitting right next to each other but talking through the screen.
There might be real reasons to be physically present at some places, but I think it's important to remember many places are like the above and the reasons for coming in are complete bullshit. For most people in an office coming in is mainly because they don't have an office at home. That's not a problem for most geeks who generally have a far better setup at home.
I can't imagine having to get close bonding from the office. One of the benefits of WFH is that you spend less time around people who happen to get paid at the same job as you, less time commuting, and more time with people you choose to be around.
I think most people would see not interacting with coworkers in any sociable way aside from video conferences as a net negative. You can’t form relationships that way. I think this is a key difference between people in this conundrum: some WFH advocates just see no value in building relationships with workers past the screen. It just doesn’t matter to them at some core level, and they don’t understand why it does for others (who I think are the silent majority).
You have more time for relationships outside of work, but for myself I find it much easier to work with others if I have some meaningful concept of who they are, and they have some meaningful concept of who I am.
I am a millennial with a few online friend groups and they're not really the same thing. For me those online relationships are loose and impermanent. People are continuously entering the group and continuously leaving never to be seen again. There's some level of trust and stability from meeting in-person that I can never seem to achieve online.
> For me those online relationships are loose and impermanent
I hate to break the news but most relationships simply are loose and impermanent, we just don't usually notice how brittle they actually are.
As for trust, is it really reasonable to trust someone more or less just because they've been in front of you vs not? And I mean that both ways: too trusting of people in front of us and not enough of people away.
> I hate to break the news but most relationships simply are loose and impermanent, we just don't usually notice how brittle they actually are.
Probably true at some level, but I'd wager that's much more common for Gen Z and younger millennials for a variety of reasons, as well as among people who just aren't really authentic, suburbanites, and people who just don't invest in friendship building.
However, that's a bit of a silly comparison, online relationships have some value, maybe a lot maybe a little, but they aren't an equal substitute for a friend in meatspace
I'm aware that most relationships aren't going to last forever, but the friends I have online are notably less cohesive than the friends I used to work with.
I make no claims to reasonableness. We are not creatures of pure reason and our friendships are never totally rational. All I claim is that there's something which ties offline friends to me and I to them, particularly if we've worked together, which is not present for any of my online friend groups.
You really don't need them to be in person. Have you scheduled any lunchtime catch-ups? Got any regular group calls around interests? Just random banter? My work group online is a better experience than I've ever had in the office. It may vary for other people and environments, but "something missing" is not a given just because of remote contact.
In the same way junk food is equivalent to a healthy meal (IMO). There is a reason some mental health issues have been skyrocketing, and this is a big part of it.
Not ‘online communities being the cause’, rather ‘lack of genuine in person community and physical connection’ being the cause.
Same as junk food isn’t necessarily the cause of health issues - rather lack of enough healthy, not processed to the tits food is the cause.
Replacing most/all food intake with junk food is going to be bad.
Doing it periodically with enough of the ‘real thing’ to compensate? No issues.
The issue is not enough of the real deal. Which is possible until something breaks because of the alternative, but not necessary.
If you put someone in a capsule in say Antarctica, and they only communicated with other people via video chat - would anyone be surprised if they went crazy?
Hell, I think we’d all be surprised if they didn’t.
The challenge right now is a lot of people (including many people here) are de facto in that pod in a way that they can’t see, because theoretically they could walk outside and have conversations, etc.
They just won’t actually do it, because there are less visible factors pushing them away - factors that in many cases they aren’t allowed to see or acknowledge.
It's primarily some mental blocker in the old that prevents them from connecting things online to their real-life counterparts. It's like being illiterate and insisting that no one else can read those strange symbols. I'll offer in advance that younger people need to learn to separate the two sometimes.
Or they (some at least) might have a better frame of reference and “the young” people simple don’t know and can’t comprehend what they are losing. My interpretation is on no way less generous than yours.
But let's go to the core of the argument: there are 2 groups, one values social interaction/bonding at work and the other doesn't. One group likes to have a mental image of who other people are, the other group prefers to focus on their work instead. The first group may even find it more difficult to work with someone with "no bond" whereas the other group just goes on with their work.
The problem is, each of these groups project their vision of co-operation to the rest, that's why the first group insists on hybrid and the other group on remote-only (fortunately nobody except some PHBs insists on RTO...). If you can't understand the other group, it's difficult to have an agreement.
My take is: work for the company that is in accord with your values and the ways you prefer to work. For me it's remote-only and there is no way I would change it, no matter what.
Even if a company prefers RTW (or partial RTW aka forced hybrid), that doesn't mean every employee does. The mismatch is not ideal. Additionally, this limits the company to either hiring from a fraction of the available talent pool, or enduring the strife you speak of. As a company grows, these issues compound and become more likely to present.
That's why the ideal solution here is a choice arrangement (aka flex), where the people who want RTO or Partial RTO can self-organize in the office, and the others can self-organize elsewhere.
Most people can establish friendships that are primarily online. It's not "screen relationships" vs "in-person relationships" for me, it's "real relationships" vs "work relationships". The main thing is that I don't want anything to do with coworkers and would choose not to engage with them even in the office. They're not friends, or family, they're coworkers and they come and go with the money. I had one coworker I liked to talk to, but he got a better job somewhere else and that was the end of that relationship. I would prefer to put more time and energy into actual relationships and not at work relationships.
> coworkers and would choose not to engage with them even in the office
Which is fine and understandable. Some people actually enjoy their work and like spending time with their colleagues (due to shared interests, worldviews etc.).
> actual relationships and not at work relationships.
I don’t see a difference or rather why can’t there be a significant overlap between the two (after this has always been the case for most people). Why wouldn’t you choose to work with the people you enjoy spending time with if you have the option?
> Why wouldn’t you choose to work with the people you enjoy spending time with if you have the option?
Because in practice this doesn't work. Someone gets mad at someone, someone leaves the company, HR gets involved, etc etc.
It's all fun and games but I can't call my work friend a dumb bitch, can I? Well then how good of friends are we?
Similarly, I have many friends who I love dearly, but if I had to live with them, I know our relationship would implode. Being roommates and being friends are ALSO two different things. And, often, living with your best friends isn't a treat - it's a nightmare.
please understand you are not representative everyone. Most of my friends are coworkers from various points in my career. I also don't care for screen relationships either.
Who else am I representing? Of course I'm representing myself, these are opinions and I'm saying them, which makes them my opinions. The difference is whether you get to force people to go into the office because that's how you make friends.
For some reason I read your post as a negation or dismissive of the parent post.
I dont think there will be a clear solution to the issue. I think companies will sort into those with in person cultures and remote cultures, but there will always be some dissatisfied minority in each one.
The burden will then be on the employee. If you dont want to work in person, dont accept an offer with that in the job requirements. Inversely, if you want in person relations, dont join a remote company.
> Most of my friends are coworkers from various points in my career
That's fine, but contextually it would seem more important what you'd prefer to be the case, not what is the case.
As in, would you prefer to have a greater portion of your social circle made up of friends outside the places you've worked, or are you happier having most of those come from work?
However, the way I view it, having fewer friends from work doesn't imply making more friends outside of work.
I spend 40ish hours the the workplace either way. If I categorically avoid seeking or making friends there, that doesn't mean I'm spending more time looking elsewhere. It just means I'm spending 40hrs/week friendless.
Why should I seek out personal relationships with my coworkers? What relevance does their personal life have on work? What business is it of theirs what I do in my own time? We’re all job hopping to chase salary anyway. Everything in business is ephemeral and shallow. Meaningful relationships happen in the real world, not the office.
I want to build relationships with my coworkers because it makes my life better - I like being around people. It also creates strong feelings of trust, which then improves work quality of life, and therefore my work. Furthermore, many people at work don’t treat people they don’t have a relationship with in the same manner as someone they know.
People’s personal life and people being interested in you is just that : people. Most people do this naturally for the reasons stated above.
Not everyone is job hopping, and I’ve made plenty of friends in the office.
Right, but you can do this outside of work without any of the downsides (i.e. reduced salary, sexual harassment and other HR type complaints, no forced time together).
You're paying by not job hopping, and your friends aren't that deep of friends. You bet your ass you can get into hot water with them when you have the corporate power structure standing in between.
I don't know why someone would be content taking the risks and downsides of corporate America into their personal relationships. I'd rather gain more time, by working from home, and then using that time to make friendships. And then also hop around and make a bunch of money without guilt.
The days I'm forced at the office I need to wake up two hours earlier, get home at least one hour later, usually two because for some reason I always end up doing overtime at the office. When I get home I still have chores to do which I usually do in the pauses when WFH. Little energy I have left I spend with the wife.
People bond at the office because they have no personal time and energy left to bond outside.
So for context so I don’t get accused of being antisocial, my job for three and half years until last year was (at least post Covid) flying across the country talking to directors and CxOs and ground level employees working in the consulting department (full time) for the $BigTech company based in Seattle.
Before that, I spent years talking to the “business” as an in house architect for two companies.
My coworkers are not my family nor are they people I need to “bond” with. We work well together, I do a lot of mentoring and teaching, etc.
I’ve had 9 and hopefully soon 10 jobs in almost 30 years.
Whatever bad things I can say about Amazon (and I have a shit ton of bad things to say about Amazon), they did teach me how to work in a mostly remote culture. The department I worked in was remote before Covid and is still exempt from the RTO requirements. I’m no longer working there
Currently I keep in touch with 3 people I’ve ever worked with and one of those three is my wife.
I don’t want to live in a high cost city and in fact I moved to Florida partially because it was a state tax free state and low cost of living.
That statement might not have been clear. I meant in my entire career there are only three people I keep in touch with that I have ever worked with (well actually five) including my wife.
I started dating my now wife in 2011. I wasn’t working remotely then.
But at 37, I had an active social life and a large friend group of people outside of work from the gym. I was in the fitness industry as a part time fitness instructor. In an alternate universe I might have gotten serious about someone in my friend group.
You would be amazed at how easy it is to meet woman as one of the few straight male fitness instructors.
My wife and I moved to a new city last year. I make it a point to fly back to our former city around once a quarter to hang out with a group of friends to play cards, we travel together with another friend group at Least once a year and we end up in each others city for random reasons throughout the year and I go to my childhood home/where I went to college to go to football ganes with some of my college friends
You’re the one who felt as though “bonding” with people at work was beneath you — seemingly regardless of whether it was in person or remote — and who then went on to describe things you do at work which were excellent examples of bonding.
I'm not a child. I don't go into the workplace looking for bonding. You know what bonding gets you when you get laid off? A cone of silence because you're immediately forgotten. If you are attempting to create a social life through your work environment, you're doing it wrong. This isn't to say you can't have friends at work, or create professional networks, but you should never pretend that your co-workers will automatically be your friends or want to be your friends, especially in competitive environments. It isn't good for you and it isn't good for them.
My experience is the opposite. I bond with coworkers and get frequent job offers, career tips, and solid life advice.
We go hang out, go camping together, and watch each others kids,
It would be moronic to think coworkers will "automatically" be friends, but I have found work to be a great place to hunt for friends.
Also, it helps to have friends in a competitive environment. It can be very good for you and good for them. You just have to collaborate to boost competitive advantage against everyone else. Friends that will talk you up to leadership (with justification) is basically a workplace hack. Not to mention being friends with your boss or boss's boss. Extremely good for you.
My post was in response to someone claiming that not only is it pointless to make friends with coworkers, it is actively disadvantageous.
In contacts of the greater discussion, I'm sure some people like you are capable of developing these relationships virtually, while others are not. That said, I wouldn't trust a virtual coworker a thousand miles away to watch my kids, haha.
I've had it both ways. As soon I leave, I don't hear from those people ever again. On the other hand, I've also made good friends that have lasted for years beyond the employment.
The tone of your post doesn't really help. You're not a child so you don't go looking for bonding in the workplace? Haha okay Mr Adult. Jesus Christ. Forming relationships is such a basic human thing.
As much as I love the many benefits of working from home—especially as a dad—I find the work experience to be hit or miss, often feeling low-quality.
You used to be able to have real connections with colleagues, but now almost everything feels superficial at best, whether through Zoom calls or disconnected Slack messages.
One thing I especially miss is whiteboarding sessions with a couple of smart colleagues as we work on a difficult problem; you simply can’t replicate that feeling digitally.
Personally I found just issues with people not understanding WFH, those with no home office room, those who work on a laptop, always at the same desk of course and so on. There are MANY, but that's not a WFH problem, is simply a problem of training people to something they do not already know even if they practiced it for some years.
The only who really do not work well from home anyway are those with "home issues" (familiar, of mere available space etc) and well, using the office as a way to leave their personal issue aside is not a good thing, nor the purpose of work.
Beside that I think it's totally absurd in 2024 wasting enormous resources to build big buildings used for less than 12h/day, to commute between them in order to consume services (from transportation to ready made food), get exposed to physical ads (shop windows, mega-screens and so on), participating in rituals pushing people to consume fast fashion and fast tech, augmenting the enormous pile of polluting rubbish we produce just to save the giants of capitalism who can't live without the big city Barnum circus... People just need to learn and stop consider the home the place to sleep, a whole home used for just few activities, whole buildings used for just few hours, only to keep people pastured in old rituals is really untenable.
People need to learn because resources are scarce, so we can't keep up using big buildings for less than 12h/day, to move between them, just to consume services (from collective transport to ready made food, wasting money in fast fashion, fast tech status symbols (like wearable smart devices) in the meantime only to get exposed to physical ads (from shop windows to maxi-screens). Long story short we can't keep up the office as we can't keep up the paper model behind the office.
You find the experience as a hit and miss because most companies and most people as well are not really ready to WFH, so the paradigm they follow it's dysfunctional. Zoom and Slack are good example of this dysfunctionality: chats are somewhat good in certain context to quickly ping someone, to pass a link, nothing more, chatrooms and co are waste of time from another era where VoIP was not possible for mere bandwidth availability. Video is almost never needed, screen sharing it's often needed, ability to sketch quickly is often needed and actually we do not have that much good tools for that but most people do not even realize they use bad tools and paradigm because they can't organize themselves for effective remote work.
Even if individually we might find a good way to work until the entire company have found a way anything is hard.
> People need to learn because resources are scarce, so we can't keep up using big buildings for less than 12h/day, to move between them
Are they really scarce though? In cases they are it’s usually due to self imposed scarcity.
> example of this dysfunctionality: chats are somewhat good in certain context to quickly ping someone, to pass a link, nothing more, chatrooms and co are waste of time from another era where
No they are not. Text communication (especially async) is generally sufficient and less disruptive than the alternatives and saves a lot of time (when people do it properly).
Bonding too closely with your coworkers will only make it easier for them to find a spot to drive the knife into.
I have a meetup I attend weekly to bond over tech stuff with more friend type people. Coworkers are coworkers. Nothing against them but they're not my buddies.
Having no other option besides willingly working in such an extremely toxic environment seems like the bigger issue, though.
Although I’m kind of curious. Presumably those other people you interact with also have jobs? Would you still feel the same way about your coworkers if you worked with them instead?
I think Hybrid/Flex is the way to go, rather than pure WFH, because of the social connections, BUT it's also utterly pointless with distributed teams.
I'm on a distributed team. I have to fucking go into the office to fucking zoom from there. Plus it's a hoteling setup, so it's even hard to know who's around and my workspace is always a little off.