[api_or_ipa]

I'm a Canadian living in the states. The joke I tell my family is that I go to Canada to hear about US news. The other joke I have goes like this: the problem with Canada is that America thinks Canada is Europe, Europe thinks it's America and Canadians think they're American.

[screye]

Has anglo-Canada ever been meaningfully distinct from the US ?

It is as tightly bound to the US as Puerto Rico. I can't imagine Canada adopting economic, military or cultural policies that favor US enemies without being strong-armed out of it by the US.

It is a charged question, and I mean it as a hypothetical. But countries form through common language, culture, religion, geography, interests or trauma/war. Anglo-Canada and the US have all the good things in common and no war/trauma keeping them apart.

At times, Anglo-Canadians feel more distinct from French-Canadians than they do most Americans.

Ofc, if you've been a stable nation for century+, then there's no good reason to fix what's not broken.

[rerdavies]

French-Canadians are not anything like English Canadians, except in the minds of English Canadians who don't know any better. English Canadians like to think we are one great nation, but we are in fact two great nations, deeply divided (more than that if you include indigenous peoples, which you should).

French-speaking Quebecers self-identify as follows:

- Canadians first, and Quebecois second.

- Quebecois first, and Canadian second.

- Quebecois, and not Canadian at all.

The majority of French-speaking Quebecois do not self-identify as being in the first category, and a very significant percentage identify as being in the third category, with a plurality falling into the second category. I think it's safe to say that almost all French Canadians in Quebec identify as culturally Quebecois.

I lived in Quebec during the Cultural Revolution in the 80s, and was there for the first referendum, but I left because it became clear that Montreal was a bad place to be if I wanted to raise English-speaking children. In the end, I didn't feel any great need to pay for the sins of centuries of Quebec Anglophones that weren't my ancestors.

Once you wander outside of Montreal, into the countryside, dislike of Anglophones is common to the point that it feels almost dangerous, and gets even worse the closer you get to Quebec City.

In my experience, tolerance of Anglophones in Montreal has decreased dramatically in recent years. I was in a clothing store on St. Catherine, neer Bishop Street (once the heart of Anglophone Montreal). When two American tourists came in, and asked for help, the young shopkeeper responded: "On ne parle pas Anglais ici" (one does not speak English here).

A friend of mine graduated from a high school in Westmount (home to the Anglophone elite, most pointedly hated by Francophones). He said that of his friends in high school, none had remained in Quebec, because even though all of them spoke fluent French, being Anglophones, they were not able to find jobs.

[belval]

The first part of your comment was pretty spot on, but the rest I think is biased from living here in a different time, the populated areas around Montreal (Brossard, Laval especially) all have significant English-speaking-only populations. In downtown during lunch time it's pretty much 50/50 whether the fast food/cafe worker will speak French at all.

[rerdavies]

Not so much the suburbs as the countryside. I live in Ottawa these days, where you don't have to go far across the Quebec border at all before you end up in Pur Laine country.

[macNchz]

> the young shopkeeper responded: "On ne parle pas Anglais ici" (one does not speak English here)

A point of translation nuance here: in American English “one does not speak {language} here” carries with it an overt sense of pretense or unpleasantness, whereas in French “on”/one is very commonly used as an alternative to “we” in informal conversation, and does not carry any of the same tone as using “one” does in English. While the translation is correct at a literal level, idiomatically it’d just be “we don’t speak English here”.

[sbsudbdjd]

"English is not spoken here" would work well.

The "on" is impersonal and quite different from "nous". I think a translation should reflect the universality of the statement.

[macNchz]

“On” really is more casual/conversational than “nous”–I think both the original and your versions would seem stiff or impersonal coming from a shopkeeper in English, whereas the original French would not be confrontational in its word choice alone. Admittedly my reference point is modern conversational language in France and Switzerland, though.

https://www.commeunefrancaise.com/blog/on-or-nous#:~:text=%E....

[aubanel]

As a native French speaker (maybe you are too), I think GP understood the nuance you mentioned but still proposes a good translation to reflect less pressure.

[sbsudbdjd]

(Native level two romance languages. Very poor French, but I can obviously read it with two Latin languages and 8 years of schooling)

Oh I agree that the translator understood the nuance and I agree why "we" was proposed. The translation is correct, as is the original one.

I was proposing another alternative that incorporates the cold impersonality of "on" whilst not sounding pompous. The server was being viscous, not pompous.

I don't think my translation is "correct"; it hinges on my reading that the server was rude and nasty. A reading based on living in latin countries but also one based on my English Canadian prejudice that French Canadians all speak English but resent having to (don't fault them for it either)

I find translations fascinating as a subject. While there can be a bad translation, there is never a perfect one.

[not_your_mentat]

I grew up in Ontario and did French immersion schooling with two of my siblings. One year our family drove across Quebec to summer with grandparents in Maine. Along the way we stopped at a McDonalds for lunch. My siblings and I excitedly ordered in French: "Puis-je avoir un hamburger?" Our orders were taken no problem. Our New England anglophone parents then went to order: "May I please have a hamburger?" "Désolé; je'n comprends pas l'Anglais," they were told. The kids ended up ordering two "amburger"s for our parents. We've been laughing about it ever since. Good on em for caring about identity I guess? The stereotype of francophone rudeness is still a running joke in our family 30 years later.

Note: there are some wonderful French Canadians out there. Just not that day at that register in that Macdonalds.

[ramchip]

In Quebec French "on" is often used instead of "nous"; a closer translation would be simply "we don't speak English".

[yurishimo]

What are some more resources you would recommend to learn more about this topic? A documentary or book would be awesome (or youtube channels, blogs, etc)!

[sbsudbdjd]

As a separatist-sympathizer, I get it.... but instead of obsessing over teaching French to English kids, you'd think they could set up programs to teach their own kids to speak French!

French Canadian is the cruelest sounding language I have ever heard.

[qball]

>if you've been a stable nation for century+

Quebec has tried to separate twice in the past 50 years, and comes within a Brexit's margin of actually getting it done (and if it wasn't for Montreal, they'd already be gone).

The seed of that separation was, naturally, caused by a military conflict between what would become Western Canada and what used to be Upper Canada.

Canada isn't actually as stable a country as Ottawa might have you believe.

[alephnerd]

This might make you feel old, but the referendum was 30 years ago, and Black October was 55 years ago.

The whole Quebec movement is basically dead in the water now.

An entire generation of Canadians didn't exist or don't remember that.

I'd argue the GWOT, the Great Recession, and COVID have had a stronger impact on modern (2020s) Canadian politics and discourse than the Quebec Independence Movement.

[qball]

>The whole Quebec movement is basically dead in the water now.

Quebec's Separatist party has complete electoral dominance (except for Montreal, but Montreal is the least Quebec part of Quebec) and has the ability to force the government's hand on most things.

If the Eastern Big City Party loses the next election as is projected (and the Bloc correspondingly loses all of its power) they'll be back.

[alephnerd]

PQ has largely transitioned away from soverignity and largely campaigns on culture war issues like Bill 21 and immigration.

Only voters who are 65+ are split on soverignity. Every other age demographic overwhelmingly supports remaining in Canada [0]

This can be seen with the CAQ, which has poached most of the PQ's leadership and campaigns almost entirely on Bill 21 and immigration [1], not on "Quebec Libre"

[0] - https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/17/quebec-francois-leg...

[1] - https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/bill-21-groups-f...

[philistine]

Are you completely out of the loop that much? The PQ is first in the polls, and has promised a referendum within a first mandate. It's a whole fucking big deal that they managed to lead in polls right now while promising that.

[boringg]

It isn't as homogenous a society as an outsider would think but I can assure it’s quite stable as a country.

Quebec exiting anytime soon would be annoying for the country but a tragic mistake for quebec especially in seeing how poorly it has workout for the UK which had been an economic engine. Quebec has been sputtering since the 80s after their last referendum vote and since montreal lost its status as a city of import to Toronto. They would go from a poor economic performer to exceptionally poor.

[shiroiushi]

>Quebec has been sputtering since the 80s after their last referendum vote and since montreal lost its status as a city of import to Toronto.

City of import? Speaking as a tourist at least, Montreal is a much more interesting place to visit than Toronto. Toronto might be larger and have a bigger economy with more industry, but for a tourist I can't think of any reason to visit offhand.

>Quebec exiting anytime soon would be annoying for the country but a tragic mistake for quebec especially in seeing how poorly it has workout for the UK which had been an economic engine.

Separatists might not be that worried about economic power. Are all the Brexit voters unhappy with their vote now? A few maybe, but most probably are happy to be out of the EU, and blame their continued economic problems on immigrants, the EU, etc.

[neom]

Your Toronto/MTL tourism comparison isn't wrong, Toronto is ugly and boring, MTL is beautiful and fun.

People love to talk about Quebec and separatism, they can go if they want, but they owe us $300B, so I doubt they are going any time soon, their "country" would likely fall over on go.

[philistine]

What a great way to make me feel Canadian unity. Guess the country's not as stable if fear and threats are how you keep the minorities in line.

[boringg]

Oh I agree - Montreal is definitely a nicer city from at tourist perspective and frankly from a live-ability most likely. However tourism doesn't really translate to economic power - and most of that is predicated on government decisions and perceived instability from the separation vote. and in the 80s all the banks HQ's relocated to Toronto. Montreal was the most important city in Canada in the 80s for minute ... now it trails behind Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver.

I don't disagree - separatists don't care because they would be trying to grab power at all costs. The rest of the population would be the ones along for the ride.

Also worth reminding Brexit was reverting to a former country state, quebec separatism would be wholly new uncharted waters.

[Scoundreller]

The separation vote wasn’t sanctioned by the Feds, so even if they got a majority, it would probably get shut down by the courts.

Did you mean Lower Canada instead of Upper Canada?

[TMWNN]

>The separation vote wasn’t sanctioned by the Feds, so even if they got a majority, it would probably get shut down by the courts.

Had Quebec voted Yes, Quebec City would have immediately declared independence. <https://np.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/tkg5gf/who_has_...>

[amanwithnoplan]

I have no idea what "a military conflict between what would become Western Canada and what used to be Upper Canada" refers to unless you meant the northwest and Red River rebellions, in which case it really stretches my (anglo) mind how that has more to do with Quebec separatism than any of the other grievances.

[qball]

Closing off any future French-speaking (read: sharing more Quebec values) Western expansion was (and really, still is) actually a big deal.

[waldohatesyou]

Wait isn’t it the opposite? Manitoba was founded as a French Canadian province wasn’t it?

[sbsudbdjd]

but because the natives (metis) spoke French by the time the Brits got there.

[boringg]

I mean it was a smart move for the brits to retain control of language and culture whether you agree with them or not.

I don't know how that still is a problem?

[mbg721]

To me there's an uncanny-valley effect. Maybe it's the Looneys or the kilometres on the road signs, but it definitely feels the tiniest bit different.

[t-3]

Even the "standard Canadian accent" is nearly indistinguishable from the "standard American accent" except for the o's and a few words that have a more British emphasis.

[api_or_ipa]

Respectfully, the Canadian accent (really, Canadian English) is noticeable and distinct from US English, in its pronunciation, vocabulary and grammar. Yes, there is a lot in common with US English, but calling them the same loses an enormous amount of nuance.

On the other hand, the difference between a dialect and a language is an army and a navy, neither of which Canada has much of.

[PawgerZ]

The "standard Canadian accent" is pretty close to the Minnesota, Wisconsin, and North Dakota dialects -- sometimes called North-Central American English. Nowhere else in America really talks like that, though, and no one would call it the standard accent. I would say less than 4% of Americans speak with that accent.

Midland American English is what we would call the standard American accent. Most of Iowa, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and parts of surrounding states speak in this.

[t-3]

What I was referring to with the standard accent is the TV/phone/public speaking accent. The one everyone adopts when you want to sound as "normal" as possible. Colloquially known as "white people voice" among various racial minorities. Local dialects definitely exist, but they're mostly used locally. Cross-region communication is usually "standard".

[JumpCrisscross]

> Anglo-Canada and the US have all the good things in common and no war/trauma keeping them apart

We tried to annex them in 1812, but they were technically British so it doesn't count.

[mikrl]

>Anglo-Canada and the US have all the good things in common and no war/trauma keeping them apart.

It was on the table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red

From the Canadian perspective too, don’t think an American annexation of our landmass would go smoothly… Russians and Ukrainians are indistinguishable to an outsider and are currently unleashing centuries of built up ethnic turmoil on each other.

Anecdotal: I used to work with very right wing Canadian guys who cursed the name of the last president and called him all manner of names because of the trade war. These were the kind of guys who south of the border would have voted for him and bought the hat.

It’s not as simple as shared heritage == shared values.

[mandevil]

The Canadian's had their own counter plan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Scheme_No._1 It would have been a gigantic failure. The plan was to try and mobilize quickly, seize Buffalo, Detroit and Seattle, and hold on for dear life until the BEF arrived. But the British were clear from the beginning that they were never going to send significant reinforcements to Canada: the ocean was too large, the USN too strong, and the Canadian plains too vast for the British army to be able to effectively defend. At most they might try and send some troops to defend Halifax as a key naval base. So the Canadian plan ensured that their best troops would be lost quickly, that the Americans would be super-pissed off and unified, all for an ending that would never come. So while it might have made sense militarily, it could never have worked politically.

The US war plan for the UK was similarly weird: according to Miller, _War Plan Orange_ War Plan Red was the result of a deal between the US Navy and Army. The Navy wanted War Plan Orange (war with Japan) and so they let the Army write War Plan Red (the UK). Which was why a war between the two mightiest naval powers on the planet in 1925 called for the US Navy to be on the defensive, at most seize the Bahamas, Jamaica, and Halifax to try and deny them as bases to the RN, and then the US Army would invade a separate nation (Crimson aka Canada) that would probably try and be neutral in the war!

Basically, from what I can tell, the US, Canada, and UK were putting their best war planners on the likely threats, and putting their less experienced and good planners on these war plans. Because War Plan Orange was, at least if you squint, how the US defeated Japan. And the Canadian and UK's war planners for mobilizing in World War Two and sending them to France did a bang-up job. It was just these plans that were not thought through and would have been disasters if implemented.

[beloch]

Any war between the U.S. and Canada would play out in strange, unpredictable ways just due to how closely intertwined pretty much every critical capacity of our two nations are.

Both the West and East coasts would immediately have their power grids upended by the loss of Canadian hydro. Fuel supplies (and practically everything else in both countries) would be disrupted as Canadian suppliers turn off the taps and American refineries go dark. Pipelines would, in all likelihood, be sabotaged so that they can't be started up quickly even once controlled. Large parts of Canada would go on a sudden bread and meat diet, since they rely almost entirely on imported fruit and vegetables.

Neither side would likely have the element of surprise, since both sides would be compromised by a large number of people in their command structures who are either from the other nation or sympathetic to it. A significant portion of U.S. forces would likely refuse to follow orders unless there was a damned good reason to invade Canada. Civil unrest in the U.S. itself would be a huge problem for the same reason. U.S. rivals such as China would pounce on the opportunity to take advantage of things while all this is going on. If the U.S. rolls into Canada then nobody is going to give a fig about Taiwan.

Occupation would be another matter entirely. The territory is massive and the enemy indistinguishable from yourself. Canada would present many of the same difficulties with terrain as Afghanistan, but with a populace that can tell which end of a toaster to plug in.

[fingerlocks]

Since when does the US west coast depend on Canadian hydro electric generation? WA state has so much hydro the price goes negative every spring when the snow melts. There’s a half dozen LNG generators state wide for supply stabilization, several wind farms and solar arrays.

And the line loss would be too great to economically ship canadian electricity to California

[beloch]

https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/ma...

[mandevil]

I mean, this is all true for a war today. But the economies were not intertwined as tightly in 1925, which is when these war plans were being drawn up. The US and Canada had had a pretty nasty border dispute (at least from the losing Canadian side) just twenty years earlier, well within the memory of most politicians running Canada. (I suspect that most Americans had forgotten about the Hays-Herbert Treaty of 1903 by 1925, but it would have been far more prominent in Canadian minds.) With the passage of another century I would be honestly shocked if such plans existed today on either side.

[gen220]

Respectfully, I don't think Canadian <> American cultural exchange is anything like the Russian <> Ukrainian cultural exchange; beyond potentially passing the "indistinguishable to an outsider" test.

The modern and even pre-modern history of Ukraine is inseparable from a degree of violence that only existed in north america when directed towards slaves and indigenous population. There are not centuries of built-up ethnic/nationalistic turmoil between the U.S. and Canada, although I'm sure you could find some crazies who've convinced themselves there must be.

[mikrl]

It’s because when the US thought it could invade and conquer, they were thoroughly trounced and had their original White House burned down. The strategic calculus never made annexing Canada a viable proposition beyond then, and there are enough cultural differences to prevent a peaceful annexation.

Similarly, Poland once occupied Moscow in the distant past and has managed to persist as a distinct nation, though the Russian calculus sometimes worked out against Poland such as during Russian-Prussian or Soviet-Nazi alliances.

Ukraine and Russia have their own history yet Ukrainians have managed to valiantly persevere as we can witness today. Unfortunately for geographic reasons the strategic calculus there is much tighter than US-Canada or Russia-Poland.

[TMWNN]

>It’s because when the US thought it could invade and conquer, they were thoroughly trounced and had their original White House burned down

By the British, not by "Canada" (which didn't exist).

To put another way, even had the US not invaded British North America, the UK would still have attacked Washington as part of the overall war. The one did not cause the other.

[mikrl]

Did the landmass change? Canada is a successor nation to British North America.

The strategic reasons for a potential attack are similar, and the same risks remain.

The US invaded and failed. Had they succeeded I doubt the British would invade Washington vs strengthening their position in the remaining colonies.

[gnu8]

> It was on the table.

I think this is a misconception. It is the responsibility of the general staff to have a plan for any eventuality. The existence of such a plan does not imply that the political leadership has seriously considered launching military operations against a friendly neighboring country.

[smcin]

South Park says otherwise.

[throwup238]

> no war/trauma keeping them apart.

Just this little hiccup: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812#Invasions_of_Canad...

Although with our cooperation at D-Day maybe Canada considers that water under the bridge.

[stackghost]

Technically we weren't a country in 1812, so if there was bad to be had it'd be with the Brits.

[ojbyrne]

Also this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Quebec_(1775)

[SECProto]

> I can't imagine Canada adopting economic, military or cultural policies that favor US enemies without being strong-armed out of it by the US.

I'd say Cuba is the exception that proves this rule

[hluska]

> I can't imagine Canada adopting economic, military or cultural policies that favor US enemies without being strong-armed out of it by the US.

Are you familiar with NATO? Clearly Canada wouldn’t do that - Canada can’t. But the existence of a treaty organization does not change how distinct we are.

As an example, school shootings. They’re far more rare here than population would dictate.

[Tiktaalik]

Every once in a while I come across some early mid century book that is handwringing about the increased "Americanization" of Canada so I think at some point perhaps there was more distinction. A lot of the anxieties around the free trade debates in the 1980s were about this.

But in general the relationships in NA work more North/South than East/West and the construction of Canada is fairly contrived. So while Canadians have a lot in common with Americans just across the border, this may be more regional cultural relationships. I would posit that your typical Seattle area Washingtonian has a more common culture with a nearby Vancouverite than they would with someone from Florida, Texas or New York.

[sbsudbdjd]

(Raised (fake) Canadian, living in the US)

I was in Canada last week and I saw a bunch of (real) English and (real) French Canadians. It dawned on me that the French Canadians resemble "redneck" Americans quite a lot more than the English whilst speaking a language that resembles French

The English Canadians (I wasn't in a major urban area, so these are what I call "real" Canadians) were quite different. Very reserved, low key and "proper". Unbearably stuffy.

[TMWNN]

>But countries form through common language, culture, religion, geography, interests or trauma/war. Anglo-Canada and the US have all the good things in common and no war/trauma keeping them apart.

Canada is indeed an anomaly. I can't think of another circumstance in which two countries that

* share land borders

* are 95% culturally, economically, and politically identical

* do not have longstanding historical grievances against each other

have not unified after two centuries; if anything, this fact implies that annexation is more likely than not to occur, perhaps sometime this century.

Americans on either side of politics think that Canada is full of super-leftists (and there is no shortage). But were Canada a part of the US in 2016, Trump would have won AB, SK, and quite possibly enough of the GTA (the parts that loved Rob Ford, and as "Ford Country" has repeatedly won the province for Doug Ford) to win ON, the province most resembling MI/WI/PA, the three states that Trump unexpectedly won the election with.

[philistine]

My existence as a Québécois helps explain why it hasn't happened. We collectively know that our language and culture are on shaky foundations with the Canadians; we know quick and painful assimilation would await us with the Americans. Canada is a country containing at least two nations, not just one.

[TMWNN]

Sorry; I meant to say "except Quebec" in the "95% identical" line, but it somehow got omitted.

When annexation happens I do not expect the US to be interested in Quebec because of language. I suppose that means that sovereignists ought to be in favor of US annexation.

[philistine]

That’s a giant if. How can you be so sure the US would have no interest in Québec? We’re not just a bunch of loser people. We have incredible talent in multiple high-investment fields, we’re the bedrock of hydro power on the continent, and we have the cool city all the Yankees want to see to pretend they went somewhere exotic.

The Americans know as much as me that quick and painful assimilation is possible. Why wouldn’t they wish to impose it on my nation?

[TMWNN]

Puerto Rico is still 100% Spanish-speaking, 125 years after annexation by the US.

It's possible that the US would annex Quebec and similarly keep it as a territory, but more likely is the US not bothering with it at all; why bring within itself an ethnic conflict that has bedeviled Canada for 250 years?

[Der_Einzige]

If you're advocating for Annexing Canada, or at least Quebec, there's a meaningful amount of support for this within Canada.

The only real opposition to this in the USA will come from conservatives who are upset at the large amount of "New Democratic" voters.

[mbg721]

Didn't Doug Ford get elected repeatedly?

[TMWNN]

He has.

Americans on either side of politics think that Canada is full of super-leftists (and there is no shortage). But were Canada a part of the US in 2016, Trump would have won AB, SK, and quite possibly enough of the GTA (the parts that loved Rob Ford, and as "Ford Country" has repeatedly won the province for Doug Ford as mentioned) to win ON, the province most resembling MI/WI/PA, the three states that Trump unexpectedly won the election with.

[486sx33]

Once, and once during Covid I mean Trudeau got reelected during Covid too because he temporarily relaxed restrictions, just to crank them back into high gear after winning again.

Also, Doug ford is no conservative, he’s just liberal lite. A pathetic spineless being

[hervature]

> Canadians think they're American

As a Canadian who is in the process of immigrating to the US, I feel that most Canadians think they are more similar to European than American. I'm basing this from having interacted with many Canadians during grad school in the US whom it would greatly trouble them if someone thought they were American. Perhaps it is a generational thing because I think my parents would probably say American if forced to choose but would say they are Canadians. Perhaps it is an international student perspective. I think most Canadians who think they are American just immigrate.

[GJim]

> As a Canadian who is in the process of immigrating to the US

Curious choice of words.

Why not 'emigrating' to the US?

[hervature]

Usually emigrate focuses on the country of departure. All the forms I'm filling out have to do with immigration and not emigration because the process of leaving a country is not usually the legal hurdle.

[mensetmanusman]

That was definitely a thing during the Iraq war.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Canadians think they're American

In my experience, many (Anglo) Canadians behave like the coastal Americans who think of themselves as rather not American despite behaving very, very American.

[llm_trw]

I always find it funny how well coastal Americans diagnose the maladies that plague America while at the same time thinking they only infect inland Americans.

Case in point: America is a racist country. But the racial quotas in Ivy League Universities are perfectly fair. There is nothing wrong with punishing Chinese immigrants for the sins of English colonists from the two centuries ago.

[JumpCrisscross]

> America is a racist country. But the racial quotas in Ivy League Universities are perfectly fair

One I realised I fell into was universally condemning everyone from places I hadn’t been as ignorant. I think what stalls the self awareness is that you think you’re just joking. But you’re not. You’re socially reäffirming a stereotype.

[bilbo0s]

I'd say you two are pretty much like most Americans. ie - You readily identify the problems endemic to all the other Americans.

I do it too. It's the way we're socialized here in the US via everything from the media and music to political speeches.

What would be really interesting to know is if either of you are non-American? I have a sense that this proclivity might not be simply an American thing. I've wondered more and more if it's just human?

[JumpCrisscross]

> readily identify the problems endemic to all the other Americans

I’d call out honest self reflection in small groups as uniquely and proudly American. We don’t have small group face-saving as a strong cultural streak. Almost in inverse, we champion it as a sign of trust and intimacy.

> interesting to know is if either of you are non-American

Immigrant American. We tend to be so convinced of our blue-blooded Americanness that we unblushingly use phrases like “blue-blooded American.”

More seriously, America is a superpower. Look at the contemporaries of any great superpower—Rome, the Han Dynasty, the Abbasid, the Ottoman, the British and the USSR—and the dominant narrative—paranoia, almost—is one of decline. Because that’s what’s left. There isn’t a competitor to aspire to. There isn’t pressure to improve. It’s partly why I think a bipolar world is for the best, even if it’s quite deadly—America and China competing is good. Russia diddlyfucking

[commercialnix]

"I am morally superior because I have the correct beliefs, as validated by the artificial applause on The Daily Show"

[jedberg]

> America thinks Canada is Europe

When I go to Montreal, I definitely feel this way. The rest of Canada feels pretty much like a clean America.

[ragebol]

LOL, I liked to describe Montreal as 'France done the American way' when I was there once for a week couple years ago.

[petre]

America without guns and racial violence, BLM, Trump. Although they did have the convoy protests, it didn't escalate into an attack on the Parliament like in the US.

[coryrc]

Without racial violence?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/class-action-rcmp-abuse...

[skissane]

It depends on what one is referring to by "racial violence". The US has a long history of race riots, which have led to numerous deaths. While race riots have also happened in Canadian history, they have been far less frequent, and resulted in significantly less deaths. And the disparity remains even if you take into account the difference in size of the population.

[coryrc]

If you physically segregate your underclass, they do tend not to "riot" in what I'm assuming you would consider a "race riot". Most deaths from "racial violence" aren't from "rioting" anyway, so focusing on that point is pretty silly, in my opinion.

[skissane]

> If you physically segregate your underclass, they do tend not to "riot" in what I'm assuming you would consider a "race riot"

Are you arguing that Canada "physically segregates" its underclass to a greater extent than the US does? I don't think that's actually true.

[petre]

I was aware of the abuses agains indigenous Canadians, but it doesn't compare to the US. Maybe not without but certainly less.

"Higher numbers of hate crimes targeting a race or an ethnicity (+12% to 1,950 incidents) and a sexual orientation (+12% to 491 incidents) accounted for most of the increase in 2022. In 2022, hate crimes targeting a religion were down 15% from 2021 yet remained above the annual numbers recorded from 2018 to 2020."

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/240313/dq240...

Compared to 6,567 in the US during the same year.

https://www.justice.gov/hatecrimes/hate-crime-statistics

Per capita values are indeed higher for Canada due to the population difference.

[coryrc]

These numbers can also go up if police do their job better and people trust them more and feel it worthwhile to report. Both are law-enforcement-provided, versus crime victim statistical surveys which are more accurate for the number of crimes committed (not just reported); though having their own drawbacks, of course.

[eBombzor]

No racial violence? Tell me... Does anyone even begin to acknowledge the atrocities done to the indigenous population over there?

[rfrey]

It is a constant and omnipresent discussion.

[RichardCA]

A few years back Joni Mitchell was asked to participate in a project to create a tribute to her in downtown Saskatoon, and she suggested that it have a First Nations component.

It escalated pretty quickly. She got so frustrated that she comparted the flyover provinces to the Deep South in the US. The situation took five years to resolve.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/joni-mitchell-wants...

[grecy]

Also with healthcare, a social safety net, people that care about each other and friendly , warm people. I was in the US for 5 months, then visited Canada for the first time after one hour I felt more at home there

And the convoy protests were funded by interests in the US. So it was a US political protest on Canadian soil.

[b112]

I know you're joking, and fair enough, but I cannot let this comment stand ... joke or not. Canadians do not remotely ever think they are Americans, at all. Not even subconsciously.

I have a great respect for the US. Realistically, feel the US is family, and like family, I love and care for it. Yet at the same time, sometimes I shake my head, wonder what my sibling is doing, baffled... often concerned out of care for them, sometimes out of self interest. Yet I still care, and want the best for them.. even if pissed off, angry, or upset with that sibling.

There is so much shared history, coupled with so much bafflement.

I guess the best way to put it, is the relationship Canada has with the US is exceptionally nuanced, and this holds true for many Canadians.

[abdullahkhalids]

As an immigrant to Canada, I don't think Canadians think of themselves as Americans, but they are way too much affected by what is happening in the US.

I bet if you rated all countries in the world by how much common people know and spend time looking at the internal politics of neighboring countries, Canada would be easily top 5. On the other hand, most countries outside North/South America have thousands of years of shared history, unlike the 3-4 hundred ones by (non-native) Americans.

In my opinion, Canadian should stop with this obsession and engage more with local politics.

[alephnerd]

> but they are way too much affected by what is happening in the US

Same with Mexico, but Mexicans are nowhere near as addicted to American news (Spanish language or English language).

TBH, most people consume news as entertainment, and outside of Postmedia Network media, Canadian reporting is fairly bland and boring.

Also, having spent some of my youth in rural and urban BC, in most cases purely Canadian television media didn't even really exist - everyone would be watching either a reskin of an American channel (Family Channel aka Disney) or an American channel (CNN, PBS, Fox).

Sure you had CBC but it was filled with ads and never talked about local issues anyhow.

That said, Western Canada is for all intents and purposes the exact same as Washington/Montana/Alaska - almost everyone in BC, AB, and the territories has at least 1 close relative who's an American or immigrated to America, and the only difference was that signs were occasionally in French, BC Ferries had a tiny portrait of Queen Elizabeth tucked in a random corridor next to a portrait of Harper or Trudeau, and Costco served poutine and charged 2x for milk and goods compared to the one in Bellingham

[tchalla]

> In my opinion, Canadian should stop with this obsession and engage more with local politics.

In my opinion, this should be done by the entire world instead of obsessing over a no named senator said something scandalous on Twitter

[bigstrat2003]

Indeed. Not just other countries, either. Here in America we need to stop being hyper-fixated on the news cycle too. It's extremely unhealthy.

[kergonath]

Yes, this works for Europe as well.

[486sx33]

Canadians should be Canadian. Except that Trudeau has made it his mission to make Canada into the first “post-nationalist country”

So what is being a Canadian anymore ? It doesn’t really matter but they really should stop trying to illegal cross the northern border into the US

[rootusrootus]

No worries, many of us south of that border are baffled as well.

But it's not like you guys are completely normal ;-). For example, Confederate flags are actually a thing in Canada. That's wild to me.

[ben_w]

> For example, Confederate flags are actually a thing in Canada. That's wild to me.

Also seen one in Cambridge. And I don't mean Cambridge Massachusetts, I mean the original.

[prewett]

At least it's relatively culturally neutral in Cambridge, UK. Putting up a Confederate flag in Cambridge, MA feels like it would be risking property damage the next time the Progressive student mob gets a bee in their bonnet.

[vkou]

It's a shame that harmless political ideologies, like the belief that some people should be enslaved as chattel based on the colour of their skin aren't awarded the respect they deserve.

Next thing you know, people will start getting their knickers in a twist over someone flying a Daesh flag.

[b112]

Those aren't Confederate flags!

As my history teacher explained to me, back in the day, a small offshoot of Confederates had it with the war. They were weary. They were exhausted. And so, as many American hippies and conscientious objectors have done in the past, they decided to flee to Canada.

At this time however, they were worried about passing through Yankee territory, and also about their own troops shooting them for desertion. So, cleverly they modified their flag, and their uniforms, in subtle yet not quite discernible ways.

When approached, they would hold up their hands and describe at great length that the flag was much like the Ship of Theseus, each thread had been carefully replaced, and that their philosophical belief was that it therefore was not a Confederate flag. It may seem and look as such, but it as most certainly not! "What!", they would decry at such statements, "Are you ignorant louts! Have you no philosophical roots?", and so soldiers would feel great shame, and let them pass.

Thus after much hardship they managed to cross the border, settle down in a small town. I'm sure the flag you saw was probably only isolated to that one rural town though, but even so it just looked like a Confederate flag. It was instead copied from that other, unique flag.

[Cheer2171]

This is false. It makes no sense. It can't be found anywhere. It reads like a bad Monty Python sketch. I can't tell if you're joking or if your history teacher was.

[hughesjj]

> they would hold up their hands and describe at great length that the flag was much like the Ship of Theseus

Okay that got a good chuckle out of me lol. Quality shitpost, could have sprinkled some lost cause/daughters of the Confederacy gaslighting in there too

[alexb_]

There's a much simpler explanation, which is that there are racist Canadians.

[TeaBrain]

I think the Canadian living in the US that you responded to was close to the mark. Most Americans have little contact with Canadians and many think of Canada abstractly, but not very accurately, as a European-like country located above the US. Beyond this abstract idea, most Americans don't have any reason to think about Canada on a regular basis.

Also, Canadians may not think of themselves as Americans, but young Anglo-Canadians are products of American culture. I roomed in college with one for a year and nothing was distinctly non-American about him besides the accent.

[peab]

Almost the entire Canadian identity is based around the fact that they aren't american

[astrodust]

It's paradoxical. Like the famous I Am Canadian ad campaign being the product of a famous Canadian brewer...that was subsequently acquired by an American conglomerate.

Like how Tim Horton's, the quintessential Canadian institution, was bought by Burger King and remains "Canadian" if only for tax reasons.

[ClumsyPilot]

> that was subsequently acquired by an American conglomerate.

Many countries and cultures are struggling with the excessive power of American capital, it bring with it Us-style management and 'way of doing things'.

[switchbak]

This is 1000% correct. Canada is definitely not defined by "being American", or as Peter Zeihan would say: "passive-aggressively not-American".

Of course, when you're a small nation right next to the most powerful nation the world has ever seen, it's easy to have your media sphere be overwhelmed by the glut coming from south of the border. This is especially true as institutions like the CBC and NFB have come into increasing irrelevance while the internet replaces them. But this should not be misinterpreted as the country missing an identity or viewing itself as the same as the USA - that's simply not the case.

On a casual viewing, the similarity of external culture looks the same: we have the same shops, the same ugly modern strip malls, etc. We mostly look at talk somewhat the same, certainly in urban centers. But when you dive into the heart of our cultures, we had very different histories, and that's reflected in some big societal discrepancies. The USA is a bit of an outlier in a number of ways, and in many ways Canada resembles Scandinavian countries more than the USA.

[zeroCalories]

Canadian culture is a vague and vacuous hole with the strongest defining feature being their insistence that they're not Americans. Someone from the UK or Mexico is so uniquely different that these's never been any confusion, but Canadians are constantly coping over this. Reminds me of how Texas is always threatening to leave the country.

[randomdata]

> Canadians do not remotely ever think they are Americans, at all.

Nah. Canadians regularly see themselves as Americans with respect to political processes and laws. Presumably because of said American media consumption and believing what it portrays also applies to Canada.

[8jef]

Even dogs might think (dream) they are humans. Close encounters will do that.

https://mymodernmet.com/dogs-dream-about-humans/

[garrickvanburen]

The siblings metaphore is apt.

War Plan Red by Kevin Lippert suggests relations between the two countries is also similar to mutually annoyed suburban neighbors.

[8note]

Some examples of Canadians thinking they're Americans include the Convoy on the Canadian right larping as right wing Americans, and the "assault weapons ban" on the Canadian left larping as American Democrats.

Both of which aimed to solve for problems faced by Americans in America by doing something in Canada, when the same problems don't apply to Canada.

[switchbak]

Well to be fair, most of that LARPing is being done by our PM who likes to piggyback on the cache of big American news stories. That's seen by many of us as being ridiculous.

[voisin]

How about our Prime Minister LARPing as a Democrat and spending a ton of money on a school lunch program that as far as I can tell (being an avid consumer of news across the country’s political spectrum) no one has ever suggested was an issue north of the border? At a time when we are already ludicrously overspending, no less.

[reso]

Canadians who visit any major American city for a day think we're basically the same.

Canadians who visit for a year think we are totally different.

[rootusrootus]

When I was younger (decades ago...) Canada felt more 'exotic' than it does today. That may just be me getting older and less awed by new things, but I'm struck every time I visit by how much like America Canada is. Maybe that's why I like it so much. America but with universal health care :).

Disclaimer: I only ever go to BC (and I have lived in the PNW most of my life), so this might be a very biased hot take. I bet Quebec is a little bit different, as well as the other provinces & territories.

[qball]

There are between 4-7 major subcountries in Canada (for reference, the US has 11 of them) depending on how you count them.

Those are the West (everything west of Upper Canada), Upper Canada (triangle formed by Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal), Lower Canada (Quebec), and the Maritimes.

If you're going more granular, you have Newfoundland, which is very different from the rest of the Maritime provinces (they have their own dialect of English), the North (sparsely populated but the kind of Canadian that lives there is different), and to a point Vancouver and Vancouver Island.

Of those, the West is functionally the Midwest (Vancouver and Island are not meaningfully distinct from Seattle/Portland/Bay cities in terms of politics) where each province is flavored towards the State to its immediate south, Upper Canada is culturally NYC-DC North (and for that reason is as hostile to the rest of the country as NYC/DC are to the US in general), Lower Canada is French (obviously), and the Maritimes are the Rust Belt.

The reason for Upper Canada's insularity (and to a point, Lower Canada's) is its age and geography: as the US found out in 1812 it's very difficult to reinforce across the Great Lakes. As for the West, there might as well be no border at all, so commerce and culture move freely (it also helps that, because plentiful natural resources and space causes a freedom-focused outlook on human rights, most people who live in the West will naturally have that in common with their southern counterparts).

[nullhole]

The north-south cultural group is correct, but I'd disagree with some of the specifics you mentioned.

The cultural division between BC and the 'west' (AB, SK, MB) is pretty strong.

Southern Ontario is a lot closer to upstate ny / the midwest than NYC, I'd say.

The Maritimes is much more like New England than the rust belt. Newfoundland isn't even part of the Maritime provinces - it's part of the Atlantic provinces.

[mb7733]

> you're going more granular, you have Newfoundland, which is very different from the rest of the Maritime provinces (they have their own dialect of English)

Just a heads up, Newfoundland isn't a part of the Maritimes at all, and those from Newfoundland will certainly remind you of that if you lump them in :)

[nightowl_games]

> Those are the West (everything west of Upper Canada),

Definetly need to split this further:

Prairies - Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta

Mountains - Everything inside the Rockies

BC - Its it's own thing

[switchbak]

Canada is being "Americanized", and the media and entertainment landscape is at the forefront of that.

I will say though, weighing in on a neighbouring nation while only having visited one of its provinces strikes me as a little bit conceited. A visit to BC is not going to give you much of a perspective of the diversity of this country.

Also: our health care is amongst the worst of the western nations at this stage. Subsequent governments have carved it away to be a shell of its former self.

[rootusrootus]

> conceited

That's a little harsh, I admitted as much in my post. I figured that my disclaimer would clarify that what I really think is "The PNW is very similar no matter which side of the 49th parallel you find yourself on."

I withhold any opinion on your health care; I've heard negatives, sure, but I've got no skin in the game. Philosophically I like it better than what we're doing in the US, even if the results have been lackluster so far.

[joshlemer]

Canadian here, and I think that especially on philosophical grounds, the Canadian system is terrible.

The state has a monopoly on the purchasing of healthcare services, it is illegal in most provinces to buy any healthcare for your family. The official marketing is that services are given out in priority order. In practice, it's rationed according to a lottery, your connections, whether you can afford to live near medical center, your ability to advocate for yourself, ability to show up an hour before a facility opens and wait in line for 5 hours, push through constant gaslighting by doctors whose goal is to dissuade you from receiving care (they'd rather you just give up and go home, here take this antibiotic and get out of my face), willingness to embellish symptoms to get higher priority placement, etc.

When the system utterly fails you, you have zero recourse. You just accept that you won't get to see a specialist for 6 months (if you're lucky, often a year). There is no escape hatch. Only if you're lucky enough to afford paying out of pocket and be able to get out of the country to get medical attention.

Millions of Canadians have no access to a family doctor (25-60% of British Columbians, for example). With increasing frequency, Emergency Rooms themselves are closing their doors (can't operate a whole 24/7 rotation).

On a philosophical level, I think it plainly evil that, even after I've paid such high taxes to fund everyone else's treatment, and then after the government refuses to provide me with adequate healthcare, after already paying for services not received, they then make it illegal to use whatever money I have left to provide basic healthcare to myself and my family.

[takinola]

> The state has a monopoly on the purchasing of healthcare services, it is illegal in most provinces to buy any healthcare for your family.

Why is it illegal to purchase healthcare privately? When I lived in the UK, I skipped the NHS and used my private insurance all the time to avoid all the issues you listed. Why not make it available to those that can afford the option?

[joshlemer]

Well, obviously I strongly disagree with this justification, but it's thought that if you allow for private healthcare options, that will suck resources out of the public system. If I use my own money to pay for the attention of a doctor, that's me taking that doctor away from the public system, making everyone else worse off.

[rootusrootus]

Thanks for that perspective. That does seem like some serious downsides.

[gopher_space]

> On a philosophical level, I think it plainly evil that, even after I've paid such high taxes to fund everyone else's treatment, and then after the government refuses to provide me with adequate healthcare, after already paying for services not received, they then make it illegal to use whatever money I have left to provide basic healthcare to myself and my family.

The evil part seems to be where they bilk you out of your tax dollars a few steps up the chain.

[ksenzee]

Downvoters may think this is an argument against universal healthcare, not realizing that it’s really an argument against a particular style of universal healthcare. Some countries, such as France and Switzerland, have a private sector that parallels the public sector, providing that escape hatch that Canadians are missing (unless, as you say, they cross the border to Bellingham or Buffalo, and can pay the US’s astronomical out-of-pocket expenses).

[switchbak]

Most Canadians of sufficient age know that our healthcare system used to be the envy of the world. Sadly that has not been the case for 30+ years, and every government of the last few decades has compounded that problem. Some of it isn't even about funding per-se, but greed, bureaucracy and institutional power grabs.

We don't really have "universal healthcare" at all anymore, I don't know what you'd call such a dysfunctional system.

[SllX]

Don't worry, there's arguments against every system of health care, including the American health care and insurance industry. Doesn't mean there aren't productive reforms that can be done.

[switchbak]

Fair call, I could have used a less zingy word, though you could have made less of a sweeping judgement as well :)

[paretoer]

This is nothing new. I grew up going to Canada every weekend in the summer.

Canadians have known more what is going on in America than Americans for at least the last 35 years.

I love Canadians but never in my adult life have Canadians not been just salivating to have a conversation about American news with an American.

[ThrowawayTestr]

Whenever I visit the states it feels like Canada just bigger

[rootusrootus]

I'm going to interpret that as a compliment.

[willhslade]

That is accurate. 10x population.

[peab]

I feel the same. Just look at accents of people back in the 90s compared to now

[486sx33]

What you talkin aboot eh?

[hermitcrab]

I went to Vancouver last year. It my first time in Canada and I was surprised how similar to an American big city it felt.

[astrodust]

It's probably because all kinds of movies set in American cities are filmed in Vancouver.

[gosub100]

> America but with universal health care :).

And much lower wages and opportunities, but the same (or higher) housing prices. There's a reason you don't live there.

[486sx33]

All democrats should move to Canada to experience socialism lite, which is what people voted the Democratic Party in for.

[bparsons]

A linguist friend once told me that language patterns in North America run north/south. For whatever reason, culture and migration seem to work the same way.

If you are from BC, you are more likely to travel to or move to California than you are Nova Scotia or Florida.

Likewise, if you are from Montana, you probably feel more comfortable in Alberta or Saskatchewan than you would in New York or Alabama.

While our governments function very differently, NAFTA has removed most of the institutional barriers preventing the natural movement of money, people and culture between the two places.

[bobthepanda]

time zone and climate vary much more east west than immediately north south considering the populated zones of Canada are almost entirely 100km from the US border.

[b112]

What radio and then TV did, the Internet has continued. The world is shrinking, its cultures are merging, one day there will be one language, and one culture, or... maybe two yelling at each other.

I once heard, in the early 2000s, that more than 1/2 the languages spoken 150 years ago are gone.

[bobthepanda]

eh, the internet also provides plenty of ways to split off into subcultures. maybe the subcultures cut across traditional nationalities but they're still there.

[JohnFen]

> The joke I tell my family is that I go to Canada to hear about US news.

As an American, I get most of my US news from Canadian sources these days. They tend to be a whole lot better.

[ahazred8ta]

My ex-ca coworker's cousin is a mountie. Often as he's stuffing some miscreant into a squad car the guy will say "Hey, you didn't read me my rights."

[TMWNN]

Canada has its own equivalent of Miranda rights, as do many other countries. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_silence#Canada>

[t-3]

A funny thing is that reading the rights to the arrestee isn't even the law in much of the US.