[mindcrime]

professional women as a general rule do not want to celebrate sexuality in the workplace.

This strikes me as a continuum, not a binary thing. I'm not saying let's have Eyes Wide Shut style orgies in the office, mind you. I'm just expressing a general, personal feeling that people should loosen up a bit. In regards to the workplace thing, I don't endorse doing things that make people uncomfortable, but I also don't believe in over-generalizing and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

See the discussion above, about dealing with "lunch at Hooters" on a case-by-case basis, vs. as general policy. My point is that I'd be fine with a work lunch at Hooters if all the members of the party were OK with going there. If we had a group member (male OR female) who didn't want to go, I certainly wouldn't try and force them to go.

Some of them are bad, some of them are totally innocuous, and that ambiguity is why we came up with the word "INAPPROPRIATE".

Overly broad generalizations to deal with ambiguity don't strike me as a proper trade-off. But that's just me.

[tptacek]

Don't hit on women at the office.

Don't make comments about the attractiveness of women at the office.

If you're not socially aware enough to distinguish between compliments that are and aren't sexually charged (ie, you are like most guys), don't compliment women's appearance at all at the office.

Don't take the office to Hooter's.

Don't take the office to strip clubs.

Don't put sexualized women or men in your presentations.

Don't make sexualized jokes in your presentations, and avoid sexualize humor at the office to the extent possible.

Don't raise concerns or ask questions of professional women about child care or marriage unless you are anticipating caring for your own children or forming your own marriage and need advice.

Nerds are creatively idiotic about this topic, so I'm sure that not only have I missed obvious things, but this list will probably expand by at least 10 more items by the end of the year, but at least by being specific I don't have to debate on the slippery slope with you about it.

[alecdibble]

The issue here is making both genders feel comfortable in the workplace. You should NEVER hit on someone at work. By doing that, you could be instantly ruining a large portion of their day. Not just one day but every day.

By introducing that dynamic tension is created. Especially so if the other party refuses the advances. Let me illustrate this point with a fake situation:

Sally works 9-5 at company A. She loves her job and enjoys her day-to-day tasks. She has to spend a significant portion of every day at this job, so she is grateful that she enjoys it and feels comfortable. Ted is a fellow employee that recently got assigned to a project with Sally. They work well together on the task at hand. One day, Sally notices Ted's eyes lingering and catches him looking at her when she is working. This makes it harder to concentrate because she feels uncomfortable. After some time, Ted starts flirting with her when they should be working. Normally, Sally is fine with chit-chat but the combination of deadlines and the flirtatious nature causes her much anxiety. She wants to be nice but at the same time, she cares more about the project and her career advancement than this guys pathetic attempts at being witty. One day, Ted asks her on a date as Sally is walking to her car. After a very uncomfortable silence, Sally declines and leaves for the day. That night, Sally cries into her pillow. What was once a great work environment has now turned extremely uncomfortable. Her job is demanding and the added pressure makes it hard to focus. She doesn't want to deal with the extremely awkward situation, especially since it is both unavoidable and takes a large amount of her waking life. What are her options? She can go to a supervisor. If the supervisor doesn't care and writes it off, she will feel terrible. If the supervisor transfers Ted from the project, rumor may get around and everyone in the office will know.

(The gender roles could easily be switched.)

The point of that story is to illustrate that even something as simple as coworker relations can really ruin someone's life. They HAVE to be at their job all day because they need money. It's not like a social circle that they can stop attending. If an awkward or uncomfortable dynamic is created, they have to deal with that EVERYDAY. It's like going to high school and having to know you deal with the bullies.

You can argue that "Sally" needs to learn to deal with it because it's life, beautiful, whatever. But she shouldn't have to. She should be able to go to work and deal with the task she was employed for without having to worry about all that other bullshit.

[mindcrime]

Note that in your scenario above, Sally never just said "I'm sorry Ted, I don't date co-workers" or "I have a boyfriend" or even "Sorry, but I'm not interested." That's all it takes, and there's no reason a conversation like that needs to be awkward, or cause problems going forward, or result in anyone feeling uncomfortable or crying in their pillow.

It's a perfectly normal, routine thing and mature, well-adjusted adults should not have a problem with something like that. Truth be told, it strikes me as disrespectful to women to assume that most of them are like your Sally, and are emotionally fragile as to be unable to handle a situation like this. Now if Ted kept making repeated advances after being told "no," then you're in a whole different ball-game.

[alecdibble]

First, I said the gender roles could easily be switched. In fact, I personally know several males that have been in this situation of unwanted advances from females. So your "disrespectful" assessment shows me that either you did not read my post fully or you are just trying to win.

You seem to live in some fantasy land. Why does someone have to be "mature and well-adjusted" to be employed in this country. In fact, you are implying mature and well-adjusted when it comes to dating and sexual advances. People come from varying backgrounds and have varying emotional states. Job descriptions don't usually list having to handle harassment as a duty. Furthermore, it's fantasy to think that once a dynamic like that is created, things will continue the same as they were before. Some people are strong and wouldn't be bothered. Many people, however, would be bothered. In a workplace, you have to cater to EVERYONE, not just the "mature, well-adjusted adults". What if Sally (or Ted) was right out of high school and was not a "mature, well-adjusted adult". Why are they required to be when it comes to sexual advances. They are at work to perform a duty and get paid for it. They are REQUIRED to fulfill those duties and not some made up ones pertaining to being "mature, well-adjusted adults".

A more appropriate course of action for Ted would be to ask if Sally wanted to get coffee outside of work, without implying any advances or sense of relationship (i.e. dating). An approach like that would allow Sally to decline the offer without the same kind of negative consequences.

And just so there is no misunderstanding, I have recomposed my example story:

Ted works 9-5 at company A. He loves his job and enjoys his day-to-day tasks. He has to spend a significant portion of every day at this job, so he is grateful that he enjoys it and feels comfortable. Sally is a fellow employee that recently got assigned to a project with Ted. They work well together on the task at hand. One day, Ted notices Sally's eyes lingering and catches her looking at him when he is working. This makes it harder to concentrate because he feels uncomfortable. After some time, Sally starts flirting with him when they should be working. Normally, Ted is fine with chit-chat but the combination of deadlines and the flirtatious nature causes him much anxiety. He wants to be nice but at the same time, he cares more about the project and his career advancement than this girl's pathetic attempts at being witty. One day, Sally asks him on a date as Ted is walking to his car. After a very uncomfortable silence, Ted declines and leaves for the day. That night, Ted cries into his pillow. What was once a great work environment has now turned extremely uncomfortable. His job is demanding and the added pressure makes it hard to focus. He doesn't want to deal with the extremely awkward situation, especially since it is both unavoidable and takes a large amount of his waking life. What are his options? He can go to a supervisor. If the supervisor doesn't care and writes it off, he will feel terrible. If the supervisor transfers Sally from the project, rumor may get around and everyone in the office will know. (And yes, males can cry too if you want to attack this using that stereotype.)

Finally, just because you are a male and might enjoy female advances doesn't make it true for everyone.

[mindcrime]

So your "disrespectful" assessment shows me that either you did not read my post fully

Honestly, I did miss that you made the point about reversing gender roles. I don't know that it changes matters much, though. My argument that asking co-workers out is no big deal, would remain the same in either case. Normal, mature, well-adjusted adults of either gender should be able to handle politely turning down a co-worker, IMO.

or you are just trying to win.

^sigh^ - Win what exactly? I don't know about you, but I'm not in a debate or a contest of any sort here. There are no winners, or losers or anything else. It's just a friendly discussion, for crying out loud.

Why does someone have to be "mature and well-adjusted" to be employed in this country.

They don't have to be, but I'm operating on the assumption that most people are. And I don't think we should change our whole fundamental approach to going through life, to cater to a few people who aren't.

Job descriptions don't usually list having to handle harassment as a duty.

I never said they did, or should. You seem to be operating on the assumption that asking someone out is automatically "harassment" which is absolutely false. If I ask a female co-worker out, she says "no," and nobody ever mentions it again, and nobody treats anyone differently as a result, and we continue behaving as reasonable adults, are you really contending that someone was "harassed"?

In a workplace, you have to cater to EVERYONE

No, you don't.

What if Sally (or Ted) was right out of high school and was not a "mature, well-adjusted adult".

Then you help them become mature, well-adjusted adults. The context doesn't change anything in that regard. There are all sorts of situations a green, right out of high-school kid might not be prepared to handle. If that comes up, and they spazz over it, you help them learn and adjust and grow.

A more appropriate course of action for Ted would be to ask if Sally wanted to get coffee outside of work, without implying any advances or sense of relationship (i.e. dating). An approach like that would allow Sally to decline the offer without the same kind of negative consequences.

Sure, did you think I was suggesting that Ted approach Sally and say "Hey, wanna go home and fuck?" (or vice versa)? That would be silly in pretty much any context. I'm talking about politely asking someone to join you outside of work for some non-work related activity, where the encounter is clearly intended to be personal and might or might not lead to a romantic or sexual interlude.

What are his options? He can go to a supervisor. If the supervisor doesn't care and writes it off, he will feel terrible.

This is absolutely no different from the previous scenario. His option is to politely tell Sally that he isn't interested. This only becomes an awkward situation if she refuses to acknowledge that and continues to make an issue of it. Just like if the roles were reversed.

Finally, just because you are a male and might enjoy female advances doesn't make it true for everyone.

I never contended otherwise.

[tptacek]

"Normal, mature, well-adjusted adults of either gender should be able to handle politely turning down a co-worker, IMO."

Obviously here you've moved the goal posts, from "should have to put up with" to "should be able to handle".

It seems like everyone here has made their points and there's not much to be gained from relitigating. Why don't we all just agree that the thread we've got here so far does a pretty decent job of summing up all of our respective takes on this issue, and refrain from growing the thread any further?

[DanBC]

What happens if Ted becomes Sally's boss? Can you understand that this has now moved from "two regular people, one asking another on a date" to "two people where one has power over the other"? You can see that perhaps there's a possibility of friction and even lawsuits if Sally feels Ted is punishing her.

It's not about whether people are robust enough to deal with this crap. It's about whether they should have to put up with it, and how it affects the company.

[Mz]

Oy. I haven't found that anyone of either gender acts particularly "mature" when you have them emotionally by the short hairs. I am female and in my forties. I am currently unemployed but previously worked for Bigco for five years. In spite of having only an entry level job in a pink collar ghetto, trying to figure out how to sidestep trouble with men at work took way the hell too much of my time and energy.

I found it especially annoying because I am celibate for medical reasons, so rejecting some man's attentions was in no way personal criticism. But I also did not feel I should have to tell someone I barely knew about my medical situation. Futhermore, I had reason to believe that divulging such personal info wouldn't have helped anyway.

[alecdibble]

I'm sorry to hear about that. I can completely empathize with how it must have felt to dread going to work everyday. Unfortunately, as this thread has shown, some people don't understand and rather rationalize.

[Mz]

I generally did not "dread" going to work. I am very good at some things. Avoiding this type of trouble is one of those things. So while I felt it was unjustly burdensome, no, there was not typically a feeling of dread.

I live with a dread disease. I have raised very challenging children. I was sexually abused as a child. In short, I have done much harder things. But having been a homemaker for a long time, I was surprised and annoyed to run into this crap at work so much. I was there to get a paycheck, not pick up men.

[mindcrime]

In spite of having only an entry level job in a pink collar ghetto, trying to figure out how to sidestep trouble with men at work took way the hell too much of my time and energy.

It sounds like the guys you worked with were going beyond what I'm talking about. I am absolutely not saying that it's OK to harass people, to propose "quid pro quo" situations, etc. I'm just saying that co-workers should feel free to ask each other out, within the obvious constraint of doing so in a polite, respectful and reasonable manner.

But I also did not feel I should have to tell someone I barely knew about my medical situation.

You're right, there's no reason you should be obligated to do that.

[Mz]

No, they weren't. I am very socially observant and was uncomfortable well before anything too obvious happened. It allowed me to carefully sidestep trouble, in some cases such that no one had a clue I ever had an issue. In one case, the man was fired for bad behavior involving a woman more than two years after I got myself very quietly moved to avoid him. So I have plenty of evidence that I was not merely being neurotic.

[mindcrime]

Don't hit on women at the office.

Of course, because it's not like you spend a significant portion of your life at the office (post school) and the office is probably where a majority of your interactions with other people will occur... nothing like passing up meeting the partner of your dreams because he/she happens to be a co-worker and is therefore automatically off-limits.

What a load of horse-shit.

Flirting, complimenting, asking out co-workers is no sin... Again, there's a line between doing "normal people things" and "sexual harassment." Advocating the former is NOT endorsing the latter.

but at least by being specific I don't have to debate on the slippery slope with you about it.

Who's debating? It's just a friendly discussion as far as I'm concerned. You're welcome to believe whatever you like; and I'm not likely to change my views on any of this based on this discussion.

[tptacek]

Your problem meeting women = YOUR PROBLEM.

Keep it out of the office.

When your unwanted advances, innocuous though they seem to you --- the "libertine libertarian" who "prefers to keep his/her workplace relationships intimate" --- result in a complaint from a coworker drafted on a law firm's paperwork, your company will fold like an unsuited 7-2 and pay up, probably to the tune of a year's headcount, and you'll have inflicted that on them because you think your personal life trumps the business.

I've watched this happen multiple times. There's no real fight. Nobody has their day in court. Your company counsel says "we'd be fucking idiots to spend the money taking this to court" and you say "but there's absolutely no merit to the argument" and he says "that doesn't matter" and poof! out goes a person's salary for a year.

You can be a hard-ass about this and call this list "horseshit", but the only reason you haven't been handed your ass on this issue in real life is that most employees aren't savvy enough to have their complaints drafted for $100 by a lawyer. Let me help them out: HAVE YOUR HR COMPLAINT DELIVERED ON A LAW FIRM'S LETTERHEAD SO YOU CAN COLLECT A YEAR OR TWO'S SALARY. There. I feel better. It's fun to rant!

[NLips]

If the other employee isn't your manager or managee, are you really suggesting that "Do you want to go the the pictures tonight?" is in any way related to sexual inequality?

[tptacek]

Yes: women feel like a vulnerable minority, and feel bad (or at least uncomfortable) when they turn men down for dates.

[chc]

True story: A couple of weeks after I proposed, my fiance told me that the best thing about being engaged was that she could politely ward off workplace flirtation just by holding up her hand and saying something to the effect of, "Sorry, wearing a ring." Before that it was apparently quite painful.

[NLips]

Where is the inequality?

Vulnerability? The vulnerability has been caused by something else, which is the inappropriate behaviour. Minority? Irrelevant - (at least) one sex will always be in the minority if there are an odd number of employees. Feeling bad? Unrelated to sex.

Regardless, the behaviour mentioned is neither severe nor pervasive (if standalone) and not intrinsically sexual.

EDIT: From some above comments, you sound like you might be suggesting there is an Atlantic culture device. I'm UK-based, so perhaps this partially explains to you a difference in opinion.

[mindcrime]

I've watched this happen multiple times.

I've witnessed multiple auto accidents as well, and I still drive to work.

There. I feel better. It's fun to rant!

Cool, glad to hear it!

[tptacek]

I've witnessed a bunch of auto accidents too, and been in one. I don't drive like I did when I was 19 anymore.

[rdl]

Does that thinking mostly come from people in college (where students dating other students exclusively is basically the default) and trying to take it into the workplace?

[tptacek]

I think it's natural and commonsensical to think that asking people out on dates in the environment where you spend most of your day is a reasonable, normal thing to do. So it comes from not understanding (or not caring) that most women feel like a vulnerable minority in the workplace.

[temphn]

Do you think this state of affairs is a desirable one? If you accuse someone of being a communist or a socialist, you are laughed out of the room; if you accuse someone of being a sexist or racist, the onus is on them to disprove it (and this is frankly impossible).

The insane contortions of the American legal system are good reason to base a company outside of the US.

[tptacek]

I'd love to watch more companies get slaughtered by effectively delivered gender discrimination complaints. Post them all to HN and spark 482-comment threads about the injustice of it all! I will laugh, and laugh, and laugh.

I've seen the system be abused by people with totally bogus complaints. Somehow, I just can't work up any outrage about it. Something about how "men like women and women like men and that's just the way it is" just does something to my internal moral compass.

Planning on starting a company in Europe or Asia so you can ask your coworkers out on dates without worrying about discrimination complaints? Good luck with that. ;)

[mindcrime]

Something about how "men like women and women like men and that's just the way it is" just does something to my internal moral compass.

So you don't think that men like women and women like men?

[temphn]

No, planning on starting a company in Asia so that you don't have to accept spurious discrimination complaints that cost you 1-2 years of headcount as a fact of nature.

   Something about how "men like women and women like men 
   and that's just the way it is" just does something to my 
   internal moral compass. 

We shouldn't care if the Christian Coalition's "moral compass" is disturbed by the idea of men with men. And shouldn't care whether your "moral compass" is disturbed by the thought of men with women.