[sottol]

And unlike, say, Samsung Ultrabooks or even Microsoft Surfaces, Macs last a really long time. My kids are using my 2011 MacBook Air and 2009 iMac and they still work, even the battery still kinda hangs in. They've had a few rough years 2016-2019 with the butterfly keyboards but I don't know many current manufacturers with products as solid long term.

[prmoustache]

In my experience laptops from the competition are as durable when you pick up the professionnal line instead of the general consumers one. That will be Lenovo thinkpads, Dell latitude, HP elitebook, etc.

[blegr]

I'll admit the support for my Dell was pretty good. They sent someone on-site to fix a known defect in their product line.

[ornornor]

Lenovo has been tarnishing the think pad brand for several years now, pushing plastic junk that also has the thinkpad branding. It’s not enough to stick to thinkpad anymore, which thinkpad matters.

Ditto HP. Their machines are… not great to operate on (from a maintenance perspective), their hardware maintenance manuals are much lower quality than they used to be…

Only dell latitude hasn’t disappointed me yet, and I fix laptops as a hobby so I’ve worked on quite a few 2014-2019 machines.

[Fatnino]

Is framework a reasonable port in this storm?

I haven't done any deep research into my next laptop yet. My ThinkPad x220 is still going strong but it is getting long of tooth.

[prmoustache]

I would say parts for any thinkpad model are easier to find than framework ones. And it applies worldwide.

[ornornor]

> framework

Can’t tell you, they refuse to ship or honor warranties to the country I live in at the moment.

[fl0ki]

Agreed. There are countless old models you can buy off eBay, drop in a new SSD and battery, install your distro of choice and keep using for several more years. Almost all models of that kind have a lot of serviceable parts, for example replacing the thermal paste is usually easy and makes the cooling better than it was brand new.

I haven't bought one myself simply because I have my own units that still work 10-15 years later. The screens mean they're dreadful as actual hands-on laptop experiences, but they're perfectly fine for home servers with built-in battery backup and management console.

[gamblor956]

My Surface Pro 3 still gets 90% battery life.

My HP hybrid tablet, now over 15 years old, still works (when plugged in).

My dad's IBM Thinkpad, older than most people currently on this website, still works.

Apple people like to claim that Apples last longer than their competitors, but that simply isn't true. Most people, myself included, can't tell you what Dell or HP support is like because we've never had to use them. But every Apple user knows what Apple support is like, because every Apple user has had to use them.

[YZF]

I'm writing this on a 2013 MBP. This specific machine is slightly bent and endured being hit by a car. Those other laptops that you mentioned, that aren't made out of aluminum would be dead. I've also had a few Lenovo T410s (circa 2010). I would say the quality and spec of those T410s isn't up to par with MBPs of similar era. Their CPU fans fall apart. They tend to overheat. The hinge breaks- plastic. The display and audio quality is worse. Software support also sucks. At some point newer versions of Windows just don't have good support, the webcam from example doesn't work in modern Windows. On the Macs though you can still run fairly modern OS and everything works. I would totally take a 2010 MBP over a Lenovo Thinkpad of any type. (EDIT: from the same era)

I've also used top of the line Dell laptops over the years and a Lenovo Yoga.

Way way back I used to have a desktop color Macintosh of some sort (I forget the model, a 68k, maybe IIci ?) and as PCs were getting tossed in the landfill for years while the Mac kept going and running most new software.

I just bought my daughter a laptop and decided to go with the MacBook Air m2. Great value for money IMO. Not sure what's even close in terms of performance, build quality, battery life etc. This should easily last 10 years.

[goosedragons]

No. Those other laptops WOULDN'T be dead. They WOULDN'T be dented either. ThinkPads from that era had a maganisum alloy frame. They are hella rigid but the plastic shell gives enough bouce so they don't dent when dropped.

And macOS software support is awful. It's completely random and up to the whims of Apple with some models getting only 6 or 7 years support if you bought at launch.

[kcplate]

As someone who used to manage a tech support department with a bunch of Dell and Lenovos for a large traveling sales team, I can assure you that they are not “hella rigid” and definitely will die and break when dropped from waist height.

Meanwhile I just disposed last year a 2008 MBP with a swollen battery and cracked case that I used daily as a secondary device on my desk (for about the last 7 years) until day I decided that it was more a liability because of the battery maybe deciding to explode soon than help.

[YZF]

I'm not talking about a dent. I'm talking about the entire (closed) MBP bent by a car driving into it. There is no way a ThinkPad plastics wouldn't have broken (and its frame bent). But I guess we can't perform this experiment. Plastic is just not as good a material - sorry. Not just is it not as strong when new it also doesn't have the same longevity.

See here for some random MBP drop tests: https://youtu.be/8kLtQBF52m8?si=a42uejjR4rUWWg-F

The ThinkPads are pretty good vs. most laptops in terms of design and durability (going back to IBM). I still think the MacBooks are an overall better design. I owned 3 T410s for many years and repaired them and kept them going so I'm very familiar with their design (And all the things that broke or failed over those years). The laptop I'm using right now is a 2013 MBP (which has been my daily driver for a long time with zero issues) and I have a new 13" M3 MBP work laptop (a great laptop) and another 2012 MacBook right here with me.

I agree 6 year OS software support isn't good but the 2013 machine still got updates up to the end of last year (though can't run the very latest OS). That said, as long as applications run on the older OS it's not necessarily such a huge problem unless some critical security issues pops up.

[goosedragons]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke3H4Gnilco

[talldayo]

It's all a matter of tradeoffs. Aluminum is nice but it doesn't protect the internal glass panel from shock damage and a $600 topcase replacement if you mess it up. Especially on the older Macs, that chassis adds to the weight and leaves them pretty fragile considering their tank-like exterior.

Speaking for myself, I'd rather have the plastic Thinkpad. Lenovo commits well to the OS I use (Linux) and I don't want to baby around a laptop that threatens to bankrupt me if I drop it on the Starbucks tile. In terms of longevity, I can do a hell of a lot more with a 10 year old Thinkpad than I can with a 10 year old Mac.

> Not sure what's even close in terms of performance, build quality, battery life etc. This should easily last 10 years.

Recently picked up a Lenovo Thinkbook with a Ryzen 5800u in it. Basically a Steam Deck in sheep's clothing, with a nice HDR 1440p display. I gave it to my brother, and I expect it to last just as long (if not further with community driver support).

[YZF]

The M2 is faster and more power efficient than the 5800u. The display is 2560 x 1664. I think the Air display is better and brighter. The speakers on the Apple laptops also tend to be better.

Not sure about drop resistance or cost of repairs. I've dropped MBPs and they were fine (anecdotal) and the MBP I'm using was literally hit by a car and was slightly bent as a result and still works.

The battery life of the air is supposedly 18 hours and having no fan is also nice. No laptop I previously used compares with my work MBP m3 for battery life or performance. The air weighs 2.7 lb. I don't know which specific Lenovo you got at but the Thinkbook 14 weighs 3.3lb.

That said, I did pick a 13" Lenovo Intel i7 about 5 years ago when I was looking for a laptop for my other daughter. That laptop is still going strong. It did die about a year after I bought it but was repaired under warranty (still a quality question though). But I think today Apple has pulled ahead and the prices on the m2 these days are good.

I've never had a good experience with Linux on laptops. The hardware support always seemed iffy. Power management also iffy. But I have to admit I haven't tried in a long while.

[gamblor956]

To put things bluntly, literally every classmate in law school using an Apple laptop had to get their laptop replace at least once due to the failure of the device caused by normal usage. My understanding from younger relatives is the same.

That HP hybrid? That was my laptop in law school. It still works, and it's great for drawing (though not as good as my Surface).

Their CPU fans fall apart. They tend to overheat. The hinge breaks- plastic. The display and audio quality is worse.

Apple laptops circa that era were notorious for heat issues, weak plastic, and poor displays. Their sound quality wasn't much better than a cheap PC laptop, unless you shelled out for a top-of-the line MBP..and of course a $2500+ laptop is going to be better than a $500 laptop.

Software support also sucks. At some point newer versions of Windows just don't have good support, the webcam from example doesn't work in modern Windows.

This is objectively false. I can still run software, and use hardware, from the 80s on my Windows 11 desktop. You can't even run 5-year old software on an Apple because Apple broke compatibility.

while the Mac kept going and running most new software.

This is objectively false. Older Macs can't runner new Apple OS software.

[YZF]

My 2013 MBP is running Big Sur latest release September 11, 2023. But yes, you can't upgrade past that. All the hardware and software works just fine.

My web cam on the T410 doesn't work under the Windows version it's running and hasn't worked for many years (and I've had a few of those, it's not just one bad hardware).

EDIT: The variability of hardware on Windows laptops is just so much larger. There's so many different motherboards, so many different peripherals, so many different GPUs. There's no way Microsoft is testing against all permutations of laptops from more than 10 years ago with their native drivers. Lenovo doesn't have modern drivers for the T410 either and I doubt other laptop companies release new drivers for their old laptops. I've owned and used for work many Windows laptops from various vendors. I've had 3 T410s I inherited and I spent a lot of time trying to keep them going including cannibalizing some of them for parts.

[gamblor956]

My web cam on the T410 doesn't work under the Windows version it's running and hasn't worked for many years

The T410 works in Windows 11, so if it's not working for you, it's a simple driver update.

But on the note of Apple just working, there is an entire frontpage thread about how Apple isn't "just working" for thousands of people whose Apple IDs have been locked out. And The Verge currently has a front-page post about their Apple editor discovering that Apple doesn't just work and in fact has quite piss-poor speakers (https://www.theverge.com/24139303/mac-mini-laptops-desktops).

[YZF]

I'm just about to retire my last of 3 T410s (its hinge is broken and it tends to freeze from overheating. I replaced the cpu fan on it 2 years ago). I tried all sorts of drivers. Some just don't work. Some work for like 10 minutes and stop working. Windows 11. Maybe there is some magical driver somewhere. Are you guessing or do you have a T410 with Windows 11 and you use the webcam regularly?

Yeah, I saw the Apple ID thread today. I thought Apple ID was optional. (e.g. I don't have an Apple ID for the MBP I'm using right now).

The article you linked to says: "My M2 Air had great speakers." It's the Mac Mini (not a laptop) that has poor speakers. Can't comment on that one.

EDIT: A by the way there is that I believe a T410 can actually have different components, i.e. some might have a camera from one vendor while others have a camera from another.

[rrrix1]

I am a satisfied Apple user, and have been for over 30 years.

I have never contacted Apple support. Not once. Yes, really.

Unfounded claims are unfounded.

Sometimes devices break, sometimes they last for 20 years and keep on humming.

Also for the record, I'm also a Linux, Windows, and FreeBSD user running on HP, Dell, Lenovo, SuperMicro, Framework, System76 and DIY machines.

My experience indicates premium components usually (but not always) last longer than more economical alternatives.

That said, if I never had to use a Microsoft product again, I'd be fine with that.

[stouset]

I’ve been an Apple user since the Core 2 Duo laptops. So something like 20 years. I’ve owned countless laptops, every other iPhone since launch, two iPads, two watches (a first gen and last year’s), two HomePods, a pair of AirPods Pro and Max, a Time Capsule, two Apple TVs, and… lord knows I’m missing multiple somethings.

The only time I’ve had to use support is when I’ve broken an iPhone screen to have it replaced.

[kcplate]

My experience goes back to the early ‘90s. I’ll admit an intense hatred then and the occasional support call, but that was mainly because I was a network engineer in a publishing company and AppleTalk was a chatty POS protocol. Since maybe ‘00s managing many, many apple devices (not just my own), I’d bet I can count on both hands with a finger or two left over that I needed to call support. Personally, I have only used Apple devices since 2009 and have only engaged support on an Apple Watch back in 2019, which was my own damn fault for smacking it into a wall and swimming a mile right after bricking it.

[kyriakos]

The comparison people tend to compare from their experiences are usually much cheaper models. This is the main reason they feel apple lasts longer.

[j45]

After so many laptops, purchasing a new laptop is starts to feel like purchasing the death of a laptop.

I have used lots of HPs, Dells, Lenovos. They do last, until they don't and you have to reinstall everything from scratch because the hardware is different.

I did run mine pretty hard, and my HPs, Lenovos and Dells did go into warranty pretty regularly. I never saw it as purchasing a laptop as much as purchasing the guarantee of a laptop.

Apple got me because it would reasonably copy one laptop onto the next.

Apple used to make their devices to be too thin, and they could not thermally handle themselves. Especially 2017-2019 Macbook pros. Before then, most were pretty reliable. Hoping the new ones are.

[adamomada]

I hope you can see that what you wrote can’t possibly be true.

Surface people, HP people, or Thinkpad people have all had to contact support at times as well. Is it more or is it less than Apple, is the question (and isn’t answered)

[gamblor956]

No, the question was answered.

Every Apple user I know has had to contact Apple support due to an issue with their Apple device. Even the guy in this thread who claims never to have dealt with Apple support before had a comment in another Apple thread talking about their experience with Apple support. It was apparently great, but that's the problem. Apple service is great because almost every Apple user will have to interact with it because of a problem with their device.

HP, Surface, and Lenovo support can suck because so few people need to contact support for issues with their devices that it's not important to those companies to focus on support.

[latexr]

> Most people, myself included, can't tell you what Dell or HP support is like because we've never had to use them. But every Apple user knows what Apple support is like, because every Apple user has had to use them.

That is such an absurd statement. You’re even italicising “every” (twice!) as if you’re really convinced it is true.

Hate is severely blinding you to reason. They’re just consumer electronics brands, they’re not eating your children. Calm down and think for a moment about your assertion. Maybe talk to some people outside of your circle.

[jajko]

Dude Samsung can last a ton if you treat them normally, you are just confirming what OP was saying. One random example - I saw SGS II working 12 years with same battery, flawlessly. I am not even going into phones comparison, enough folks around who are not happy or migrating back to Androids for various reasons.

As for laptops I guess you are joking, I've yet to meet a single big corporation in Europe where macbooks are even allowed on premises, unless its some web app testing team or similar.

Some folks live in great echo chambers, I agree this site is a massive one for Apple. That's a simple fact, comments here confirm this. Which is fine on its own, but its not balanced truth you often find here.