[YZF]

I'm writing this on a 2013 MBP. This specific machine is slightly bent and endured being hit by a car. Those other laptops that you mentioned, that aren't made out of aluminum would be dead. I've also had a few Lenovo T410s (circa 2010). I would say the quality and spec of those T410s isn't up to par with MBPs of similar era. Their CPU fans fall apart. They tend to overheat. The hinge breaks- plastic. The display and audio quality is worse. Software support also sucks. At some point newer versions of Windows just don't have good support, the webcam from example doesn't work in modern Windows. On the Macs though you can still run fairly modern OS and everything works. I would totally take a 2010 MBP over a Lenovo Thinkpad of any type. (EDIT: from the same era)

I've also used top of the line Dell laptops over the years and a Lenovo Yoga.

Way way back I used to have a desktop color Macintosh of some sort (I forget the model, a 68k, maybe IIci ?) and as PCs were getting tossed in the landfill for years while the Mac kept going and running most new software.

I just bought my daughter a laptop and decided to go with the MacBook Air m2. Great value for money IMO. Not sure what's even close in terms of performance, build quality, battery life etc. This should easily last 10 years.

[goosedragons]

No. Those other laptops WOULDN'T be dead. They WOULDN'T be dented either. ThinkPads from that era had a maganisum alloy frame. They are hella rigid but the plastic shell gives enough bouce so they don't dent when dropped.

And macOS software support is awful. It's completely random and up to the whims of Apple with some models getting only 6 or 7 years support if you bought at launch.

[kcplate]

As someone who used to manage a tech support department with a bunch of Dell and Lenovos for a large traveling sales team, I can assure you that they are not “hella rigid” and definitely will die and break when dropped from waist height.

Meanwhile I just disposed last year a 2008 MBP with a swollen battery and cracked case that I used daily as a secondary device on my desk (for about the last 7 years) until day I decided that it was more a liability because of the battery maybe deciding to explode soon than help.

[YZF]

I'm not talking about a dent. I'm talking about the entire (closed) MBP bent by a car driving into it. There is no way a ThinkPad plastics wouldn't have broken (and its frame bent). But I guess we can't perform this experiment. Plastic is just not as good a material - sorry. Not just is it not as strong when new it also doesn't have the same longevity.

See here for some random MBP drop tests: https://youtu.be/8kLtQBF52m8?si=a42uejjR4rUWWg-F

The ThinkPads are pretty good vs. most laptops in terms of design and durability (going back to IBM). I still think the MacBooks are an overall better design. I owned 3 T410s for many years and repaired them and kept them going so I'm very familiar with their design (And all the things that broke or failed over those years). The laptop I'm using right now is a 2013 MBP (which has been my daily driver for a long time with zero issues) and I have a new 13" M3 MBP work laptop (a great laptop) and another 2012 MacBook right here with me.

I agree 6 year OS software support isn't good but the 2013 machine still got updates up to the end of last year (though can't run the very latest OS). That said, as long as applications run on the older OS it's not necessarily such a huge problem unless some critical security issues pops up.

[goosedragons]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke3H4Gnilco

[talldayo]

It's all a matter of tradeoffs. Aluminum is nice but it doesn't protect the internal glass panel from shock damage and a $600 topcase replacement if you mess it up. Especially on the older Macs, that chassis adds to the weight and leaves them pretty fragile considering their tank-like exterior.

Speaking for myself, I'd rather have the plastic Thinkpad. Lenovo commits well to the OS I use (Linux) and I don't want to baby around a laptop that threatens to bankrupt me if I drop it on the Starbucks tile. In terms of longevity, I can do a hell of a lot more with a 10 year old Thinkpad than I can with a 10 year old Mac.

> Not sure what's even close in terms of performance, build quality, battery life etc. This should easily last 10 years.

Recently picked up a Lenovo Thinkbook with a Ryzen 5800u in it. Basically a Steam Deck in sheep's clothing, with a nice HDR 1440p display. I gave it to my brother, and I expect it to last just as long (if not further with community driver support).

[YZF]

The M2 is faster and more power efficient than the 5800u. The display is 2560 x 1664. I think the Air display is better and brighter. The speakers on the Apple laptops also tend to be better.

Not sure about drop resistance or cost of repairs. I've dropped MBPs and they were fine (anecdotal) and the MBP I'm using was literally hit by a car and was slightly bent as a result and still works.

The battery life of the air is supposedly 18 hours and having no fan is also nice. No laptop I previously used compares with my work MBP m3 for battery life or performance. The air weighs 2.7 lb. I don't know which specific Lenovo you got at but the Thinkbook 14 weighs 3.3lb.

That said, I did pick a 13" Lenovo Intel i7 about 5 years ago when I was looking for a laptop for my other daughter. That laptop is still going strong. It did die about a year after I bought it but was repaired under warranty (still a quality question though). But I think today Apple has pulled ahead and the prices on the m2 these days are good.

I've never had a good experience with Linux on laptops. The hardware support always seemed iffy. Power management also iffy. But I have to admit I haven't tried in a long while.

[gamblor956]

To put things bluntly, literally every classmate in law school using an Apple laptop had to get their laptop replace at least once due to the failure of the device caused by normal usage. My understanding from younger relatives is the same.

That HP hybrid? That was my laptop in law school. It still works, and it's great for drawing (though not as good as my Surface).

Their CPU fans fall apart. They tend to overheat. The hinge breaks- plastic. The display and audio quality is worse.

Apple laptops circa that era were notorious for heat issues, weak plastic, and poor displays. Their sound quality wasn't much better than a cheap PC laptop, unless you shelled out for a top-of-the line MBP..and of course a $2500+ laptop is going to be better than a $500 laptop.

Software support also sucks. At some point newer versions of Windows just don't have good support, the webcam from example doesn't work in modern Windows.

This is objectively false. I can still run software, and use hardware, from the 80s on my Windows 11 desktop. You can't even run 5-year old software on an Apple because Apple broke compatibility.

while the Mac kept going and running most new software.

This is objectively false. Older Macs can't runner new Apple OS software.

[YZF]

My 2013 MBP is running Big Sur latest release September 11, 2023. But yes, you can't upgrade past that. All the hardware and software works just fine.

My web cam on the T410 doesn't work under the Windows version it's running and hasn't worked for many years (and I've had a few of those, it's not just one bad hardware).

EDIT: The variability of hardware on Windows laptops is just so much larger. There's so many different motherboards, so many different peripherals, so many different GPUs. There's no way Microsoft is testing against all permutations of laptops from more than 10 years ago with their native drivers. Lenovo doesn't have modern drivers for the T410 either and I doubt other laptop companies release new drivers for their old laptops. I've owned and used for work many Windows laptops from various vendors. I've had 3 T410s I inherited and I spent a lot of time trying to keep them going including cannibalizing some of them for parts.

[gamblor956]

My web cam on the T410 doesn't work under the Windows version it's running and hasn't worked for many years

The T410 works in Windows 11, so if it's not working for you, it's a simple driver update.

But on the note of Apple just working, there is an entire frontpage thread about how Apple isn't "just working" for thousands of people whose Apple IDs have been locked out. And The Verge currently has a front-page post about their Apple editor discovering that Apple doesn't just work and in fact has quite piss-poor speakers (https://www.theverge.com/24139303/mac-mini-laptops-desktops).

[YZF]

I'm just about to retire my last of 3 T410s (its hinge is broken and it tends to freeze from overheating. I replaced the cpu fan on it 2 years ago). I tried all sorts of drivers. Some just don't work. Some work for like 10 minutes and stop working. Windows 11. Maybe there is some magical driver somewhere. Are you guessing or do you have a T410 with Windows 11 and you use the webcam regularly?

Yeah, I saw the Apple ID thread today. I thought Apple ID was optional. (e.g. I don't have an Apple ID for the MBP I'm using right now).

The article you linked to says: "My M2 Air had great speakers." It's the Mac Mini (not a laptop) that has poor speakers. Can't comment on that one.

EDIT: A by the way there is that I believe a T410 can actually have different components, i.e. some might have a camera from one vendor while others have a camera from another.