[31337Logic]

This completely misses the point. In the case of RTO, you can't be a relativist. You can't say "well I prefer to RTO but I'm okay if everyone else chooses to WFH" because the whole point of RTO is that we all (or almost all, within reason) return together.

Even if your immediate teammates may not be in the same physical space as you, hopefully you're "extended team" is. And I'd argue that even if no one from your team or department shares your physical space, there's still absolute value in returning to office because it promotes a sense of community and networking.

[xzyyyz]

> there's still absolute value in returning to office because it promotes a sense of community and networking.

Without data it is religion. Even sect. If you want to insist, provide data how "absolute value" increases productivity.

So far, I suffer productivity loss after RTO. I also spend less time working (after 3 hours of commute I have very hard time convincing myself that I want to do some overtime -- a normal situation when I am WfH).

I know people who prefer to work from office (e.g., because no children distraction). The action work here is prefer. They are good enough teammate of mine not to impose their preferences under disguise of culture and senses.

[31337Logic]

I never said anything about "increasing productivity".

[ethanbond]

One person’s “community and networking” is another person’s distractions.

It is much easier to add community and networking to a remote team (e.g. by frequent colocation) than it is to remove distraction from an in-person team.

[steveBK123]

My team is remote

I fly every 3-6 months to meet in person for a week and it has its benefits.

But last two times we actually ran out of steam by day 3 and I found my team working physically adjacent but mentally remote in headphone land by day 3, with some not even coming in by day 4.

I’m not sure I’ll stay more than 3 nights next time.

[lannisterstark]

>there's still absolute value in returning to office

>because it promotes a sense of community and networking.

Value is often measured non-arbitrarily. _community_ and _networking_ are both arbitrary.

[steveBK123]

No I'm not missing the point.

I'm pointing out that the RTO boosters are making a much larger ask of their teammates.

In the age of open floor plans, no cubes, no offices.. many of us find it near impossible to do "deep work" in the office. Sitting on an open floorplan with noise cancelling headphones on for 8 hours per day is not a life I want to go back to living.

[LazarWolf_]

I generally support choice in work place. However, many advocates of WFH disappear for days; seem to produce less results. Younger teammates don’t have the best work philosophies, and won’t necessarily develop them in isolation.

Some of this may be fixed with process changes and better tooling; but that does not exist today for the company I work for.

I signed a contract that said I would come to the office when I took my offer, and honestly, if WFH people are serious; that should be more vocal about allowing folks to leave the state boundaries too. Silicon Valley folks who live in 3+ mil houses seem to be really happy with WFH…

As a personal anecdote, many of our local restaurants near my office have closed down, people I cared about lost jobs and livelihoods from these somewhat self-centered changes. I want more people to understand that these arguments have perverse secondary effects on society as well.

[steveBK123]

If people are observed to be abusing WFH it can be revoked for them

If they aren’t performing they can be fired

[31337Logic]

> If people are observed to be abusing WFH it can be revoked for them

2 things follow from tips mode of thought:

The first is that you view (and presumably you believe others view) RTO as some sort of punishment. ("Oh, Jones, we caught you abusing WFH, therefore we're going to force you to RTO. That'll teach ya!")

Second, you have a presumption that OTHER PEOPLE will be there in the office with Jones! (Or else, why exactly force him to go into the office?) Now those "other people" can either be folks who choose to be there, or else it'll be made up of an army of Joneses! I'm not sure if I want to work in an office environment where EVERYTHING is forced to be there against their wishes.

> If they aren’t performing they can be fired

Yeah, business as usual. The trick is, how do employers retain happy peoductive employees, especially around the issue of RTO?

It's not as easy as "fire poor performers", especially if the employees claim (as many here are doing right now) that RTO is an absolutely miserable and unproductive experience for them.

Firing and rehiring people is expensive. :-/