Ask HN: Netflix doing mass layoffs today?

[_bhqp]

Just heard word from a friend who has a connection there that got the axe. 2 weeks before Christmas. Classy..

EDIT: changed the title to a question and make it an Ask HN instead of a Tell HN. My source told me it was a mass layoff but it might be smaller in scope than I was lead to believe. Apologies for the FUD here if so.

[rickreynoldssf]

This really shouldn't be a shock for Netflix employees. According to Netflix's culture page (https://jobs.netflix.com/culture) They are a team, not a family.

When you're on a team you know you can be cut at any moment. It's ruthless over there and the recruiters will make sure you're aware of that early in the interview process. Netflix was never known as a good place to work which is why they pay outrageous salaries and the average employment length is a little over a year.

[nobodyandproud]

At least Netflix is upfront.

At my “WLB friendly” company, they’re addicted to cost-cutting by off-shoring. Less pay but stability was the draw.

As soon as the tech-hiring boom was over they started finding ways to gas-light:

- If you’re not delivering/under-delivering, it’s certainly a red-flag.

- If you’re “overworking” that’s a red-flag.

- If you’re phenomenal and young, they’ll keep you and look the other way.

- If you’re off-shore, they’ll also look the other way.

- And raise concerns, and I get red flagged (honestly, I don’t have the right skillset here).

Source: Watching my US team slowly get dismantled, while my manager says otherwise.

[oumua_don17]

>> At my “WLB friendly” company, they’re addicted to cost-cutting by off-shoring. Less pay but stability was the draw

Is that a past market leader semiconductor company now struggling to get it's act together?

[nobodyandproud]

Fintech.

[cableshaft]

Company "families" can be cut at any moment in a state with at will employment also (and they absolutely will lay you off too). They just gaslight you into thinking it won't happen so that you'll stay loyal as long as they do want you to stay.

[SirMaster]

Sure, they can. But there are actually good family companies out there that deeply care about their employees.

Not saying they are common, but they do exist.

Just an example. My dad who works for a small construction company as a steel detailer, when all the construction work was put on hold during covid, the company told the employees to go out and find places looking for volunteer workers, and the company would pay them their normal salary to do the volunteer work.

They have shown time and time again through the years (and he's been with them basically his whole professional life) that they do everything they can to help their employees.

[camhart]

> But there are actually good family companies out there that deeply care about their employees.

Doing what's best for the company long term is generally what's best for employees in the long term. Sometimes layoffs are what's best. Companies that deeply care about their employees will still have layoffs.

[nemo44x]

I think it's great they lay it out. I never understood the whole "we're a family" thing that so many companies, especially startups, pretend to do. Netflix is open that they want the best players they possibly can so they can achieve the highest level of greatness they can. They want people who want to put in the effort to achieve this. This may not be for everyone and that's OK. But at least they are upfront about it. Champions have different mindsets and have goals that require so much effort.

[Toutouxc]

Wow, that culture page reads like something from Black Mirror. But I guess I'd also endure a lot of stuff for a year of outrageous salary, then peace out to a beach somewhere.

[3D30497420]

Oh wow, yeah.

I love this one: "Selflessness. You seek what is best for Netflix, not yourself or your team". Sounds like something a cult leader would have you commit to.

Plus, that page is insanely long.

[cloverich]

Its intended to be a statement against the self serving politics present at many companies; it doesnt mean be a slave to netflix and forgo self care or anything. Just a reasonable north star: You are employed by the company to act in its best interest.

[fnfjfk]

This is an “everyone can win” situation. Netflix leadership could align incentives so that doing the best thing for Netflix is also the selfish thing that maximizes your performance review, bonus, and RSUs.

Statements like this imply that doing the best thing for the company won’t be rewarded in the best way for individuals. Why not?

[ecnahc515]

> Statements like this imply that doing the best thing for the company won’t be rewarded in the best way for individuals. Why not?

I think part of it is that they believe you are compensated well enough that you don't need extra rewarding.

[lowbloodsugar]

It is fucking insane if they thing that is actually how it works, though. Start-ups might work like that, because at that point the people and the company are effectively the same. But any company more than a year old becomes filled with people who are maximizing their own net worth. And why would it be any different?

[tech_ken]

Any for-profit company is going to expect the same from their employees, even if they don't say it; it is the nature of contract employment. Any company which tells you that they want you to balance their needs against literally anything else is lying to you. They may not have the competence to detect or act on you doing this balancing, but at its core the company wants something else. You forget this at your own peril.

[antisthenes]

Cults typically don't pay 400k+ total comp.

For 400k, I can look the other way for a couple of years to build up a safety net, then peace out to a company with a better work-life balance.

I imagine that's what a lot of people are doing with FAANGs.

[ipaddr]

Until you realize most people stay less then a year and most of that money goes to taxes and rent if working in person.

Cults and FAANGs offer a similiar vision of a rosey future that will not come to pass for the average person.

[saati]

After all the times I saw office politics make the product much worse for our users, I see that as a good thing.

[mrbonner]

Isn't that better than the virtue signaling from all companies out there?

[popularrecluse]

Yeah guess they are self-selecting for the kind of person that will read through that drivel.

[manojlds]

Only difference from that and others is they are upfront about it. Which is always better.

[karmasimida]

Family is about protecting the bottom line

Company is about the upside

Ofc they are different.

[SoftTalker]

Many families are pretty fucked up too, to be honest.

[ldjkfkdsjnv]

One last flush before inflation disappears and tech booms, plausible deniability is still available. In six months, things will have recovered too much to allow for the optics of big layoffs.

Edit: for the doubters, the stock market is clearly pricing in inflation dropping, your current analysis doesnt take into account any data that hedge funds and investors are trading on

[sakopov]

IMHO, what I see from the latest CPI report is inflation becoming persistent and it looks like shelter prices are the reason. So I don't think rates will be cut in the near short-term and will likely remain unchanged. The good news is that apartment construction [1] and vacancies [2] are trending up, so this could give way to lower rents and CPI coming down to what the FED is expecting but I don't think this is happening in March but rather much later next year. So, I think we'll have more pain and layoffs in the tech market for the majority of next year...

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/UNDCON5MUSA [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RRVRUSQ156N

[HDThoreaun]

Inflation is sitting at 3.1%, it's already come down. You are right that housing inflation is still a big problem, but the overall number is in the acceptable range today. Powell just signaled 3 cuts next year being the current plan. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/12/13/business/fed-meeting...

[ldjkfkdsjnv]

the stock market is clearly pricing in inflation dropping, your current analysis doesnt take into account any data that hedge funds and investors are trading on

[hotpotamus]

I guess I'm nearly infinitely cynical, but I suspect that in six months, the execs will still prefer money over optics.

[dpflan]

You are not cynical, it is the general trend, and you wish it weren't true.

[dpflan]

You're looking at FOMC and interest rates changes in 6-month will change the picture?

[oceanplexian]

Inflation is trending down, the entire mandate of the Fed is to achieve maximum employment and keep prices stable. There's also some data coming out that a lot of the inflation wasn't real, and corporations were using it as a cover to price gouge.

[sottol]

You can kinda tell when at the grocery store. Anecdotally, a lot of "bulk-comfort" foods like potato chips, sodas, flavored waters, cereals, ... about doubled in price but now most of these items are almost permanently "buy 1 get 1 free" (sometimes but-1-get-3-free, the "old BOGO"). It's no longer a one-off reduction every couple weeks.

Consumers must have reduced purchases but companies don't want to backtrack on the price, thus they're always on sale without actually bringing down the base price.

I wonder if that affects inflation measurements as I don't know if the inflation basket is calculated based on individually marked prices or actual consumer spending.

[dpflan]

Yes, aware of the flaunted price increases. So inflation going down means the companies balked and have to back down and drop prices? I guess they are keeping the prices as high as possible, but how does the FED influence the company's decision to lower prices (and hence inflation)? Is the incentive to not get sued?

[ska]

> So inflation going down means the companies balked and have to back down and drop prices?

No, it means that the rate of price increases has slowed.

[dpflan]

OK: Inflation as the % increase of a price compared to a previous period, whereby lower inflation means lower % increase of a price compare to a previous period -- 0% meaning prices have stabilized when compared to a previous period? So we get stuck with high prices, the anecdotal comment in this thread seems to give some color to that idea.

Some useful links from the Fed:

- Inflation calculator: https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1&year1=200001...

- Recent CPI Summary: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.nr0.htm

[oldpersonintx]

contrary to what you read on CNBC, not every decision is based on inflation

lots of tech companies just have too many employees

it takes fewer people to maintain something than to build it...and arguably Netflix has saturated its markets

[cableshaft]

Interest rates probably need to go down a decent amount before that happens. It doesn't sound like the first cuts are likely to happen for at least another six months or so, if that. And even then it won't be a major rate cut.

[nobodyandproud]

I hope you’re right, but prior busts and downturns lead to a populations that were unhireable once the economy picked back up.

[Findeton]

More like 12 months. In 6 months perhaps we’ll be trying to get out of a recession.

[neogodless]

Sorry everyone. After about 15 years of giving Netflix money every month, I canceled last week. Must have really hurt their bottom line.

[chubot]

Hm I also cancelled about a month ago, after more than 10 years. I noticed there was good quality content on YouTube I was watching more.

I think the tipping point was that I got sucked into quite a few low quality crime documentaries, which were not doing anything for me, and probably hurting.

The Madoff one was actually good, but there were 10 others that in retrospect I regret watching.

Even Tiger King was like that. It's more colorful, but ultimately a waste of time ... If you look into it, basically all the characters there are very bad people (i.e. they abuse both animals and people).

IMO it's kinda poisonous to watch too much of that stuff. To take it lightly and brush off other people's misfortunes as entertainment.

[allenu]

I wonder if more people are realizing this and tuning out of those shows, too. I noticed I was watching a bunch of true crime stuff and after a while realized I was really just wasting my time since I didn't really learn anything new and I was just introducing "bad people" into my life in some ways. There was no net gain for me, other than feeling smug that there are bad and dumb people out there doing bad, evil things and that I don't interact with them, thankfully.

[chihuahua]

I also just cancelled, I guess you and me cancelling at the same time was too much.

I was amazed by how bad their Web UI is. After I've watched a movie, if I want to remove it from "My List", I have to go to the list and find the movie in it (it's randomly re-ordered every day), before I can click the "remove from my list" button. Even Amazon Prime Video lets me remove a movie from my list right after I've finished watching it.

And I can't change the order of titles on my list. Why does it get randomly re-ordered repeatedly? And the thumbnails change occasionally, which makes it even harder to find what I'm looking at. What's the point, other than being gratuitously hostile to the user?

The other thing is that most of the content is just filler. Whenever a show or movie is marked with the red Netflix logo, to me it means "this probably sucks". Netflix probably thinks its something for their customers to get excited about "Ooh, produced by Netflix!" but it's the opposite.

[autoexec]

> Why does it get randomly re-ordered repeatedly?

Netflix doesn't want you to choose what you want to watch, they want to pick what you watch for you. They constantly push certain shows over and over again across nearly every category they show you while hiding shows and entire categories of content from you that they don't want you to see.

Every new thing they release is "trending" and "top 10" and "most watched" and "featured" and it will show up over and over again in the other categories because they want the numbers to look good. They don't want their new stuff to compete with old stuff, but as we've seen, pretty much everybody is watching "friends" and "big bang theory" on an endless loop anyway.

Netflix has had some good shows, but the more annoying they get the closer I get to giving up on them. You can always find netflix originals elsewhere after all

[paulddraper]

hope you can sleep at night

[kypro]

Etsy too: https://www.morningstar.com/news/marketwatch/20231213380/ets...

[janjones]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38629814

[mcraiha]

Did every employee receive statistics about how much they were watched in the first half of this year?

[nameless912]

"Mass Layoffs" seems...suspect. I haven't heard of a single person in my sphere of influence being hit by layoffs, and I work with a lot of folks. Where did you get your info OP?

[_bhqp]

Yeah fair enough. My friends partners whole team got let go. According to said friend they weren't the only team. Its admittedly shakey. They are definitely laying people off today though.

[nameless912]

From where I sit in game platform tech, I didn't hear about a single layoff on the tech side of the company. Maybe a studio team got axed? That's a relatively regular occurrence and basically non-news in Hollywood.

[Panini_Jones]

This is false, as far as I can tell. I am currently in a Netflix office.

[_bhqp]

Maybe its less extensive than I was led to believe from my source. I can definitely tell you they are laying people off. I personally know people affected.

[Panini_Jones]

I am a Netflix employee currently at the HQ. No one is talking about layoffs. Was your friend fired?

[d4mi3n]

Wouldn’t we be seeing some kind of press release if a mass layoff was underway? If it is and no statements have been made, they’d be opening themselves up to all kinds of trouble with their investors and the SEC.

[rchaud]

They might just be timing the release for a big enough bump in the stock.

[_bhqp]

Yep. Good point. Updated the title of this post to a question. I know they definitely did some layoffs today but maybe it wasn't as extensive as I was led to believe.

[chillben]

My friend at Netflix didn't hear anything, though. Are you sure it is a "mass" layoff and the folks getting let go aren't contractors or let go due to perf?

[_bhqp]

No these were definitely employees. I know one of them personally and their whole team got let go. I will give you that "mass" might be apocryphal given that the person telling me was affected.

[blindriver]

I would be surprised if Netflix was doing "mass" layoffs, they keep a pretty lean ship compared to other companies from what I've heard.

[_bhqp]

Yeah I changed the title of this post to a question. I just heard from a single source and they might have been feeling bit spicy about it. They definitely laid some folks off today but the extent of it is TBD it seems.

[jessehorne]

Feels bad. Good luck to everyone. This job market is bad enough as it is. I'll see ya'll in retail or woodworking. o7

[robofanatic]

thats a big leap backwards. from minimum quarter million to minimum wage?

[autoexec]

That would be pretty dramatic but everybody is going backwards by some amount. The median household income in America has been declining and the poverty rate is soaring at a rate not seen in more than 50 years. I saw JPMorgan predicting that in the next year 99% of Americans will be worse off financially than they were in 2019. It's a race to the bottom.

[robofanatic]

wages going down and cost of living going up, somebody is making profit in between!

[textadventure]

Word from a friend of a friend. Solid source.

[cableshaft]

Well if it's true we should be getting something to collaborate on it shortly. Plenty of people at Netflix on this site.

[weej]

Netflix employee here, there are no "mass layoffs" that I'm aware of (would also have WARN act require issue of notice >75 employees). We have involuntary attrition when people do not meet "the keepers test" in performance/impact and are exited from the company with severance. This is a regular part of the business and explicitly called out in the company's culture memo (see the top of the HN comments). Perhaps, the friend of a friend falls within this category, or just hearsay.

[lern_too_spel]

The WARN act requires an announcement 60 days before the workers stop being paid. Tech companies typically offer more than two months of severance, so this announcement can happen after people are notified they've been laid off.

This late into the workday, the fact that there's no news about layoffs at Netflix makes me suspect there isn't a large layoff.

[Panini_Jones]

I don’t know of any mass layoffs at Netflix today.

[iowemoretohim]

I would prefer if he posted it on X and then posted the link here. I like my hearsay to at least have a link attached to it.

[_bhqp]

Heh yeah thats fair.

[nicup12345689]

Damn, even for run of the mill, retail labor I've seen courtesy extended as wait until January

[xmprt]

To be fair, holiday season is the busiest time for retail labor so it makes sense to keep employees around until after. Netflix (and other tech companies) usually don't get much work done during December so it makes the most sense for the company to do layoffs in December. It's incredibly brutal though. I wonder if there are any tax implications for doing it this quarter vs waiting till next year/quarter.

[znpy]

Not sure if they’re based in california and (so) if what about to say applies, but: afaik there’s a labor law in california that mandates companies planning to do mass layoffs to announce that in advance.

There might be a source of truth in there.

[aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA]

https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/Cal-WARNAct.html

[John23832]

The WARN act also applies to more than 100 person RIF.

[giantg2]

Inflation is easing, market is going up. But more fucking layoffs... great.

[turtlebits]

The market is going up primarily because of 7 companies, which isn't a great outlook.

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/13/1216457187/wall-street-magnif...

[oceanplexian]

The market is on the upswing. My own company opened up a ton of roles as well (High paying, FAANG adjacent). A few thousand engineers at Netflix or Etsy is irelevent compared to the the broader US Economy.

[giantg2]

I don't know. It seems job seekers still see a tight market right now.

[karmasimida]

Inflation is irrelevant in hiring

Rate is what is relevant.

It is said to come down but haven't come down yet.

[gaws]

> Inflation is easing, market is going up.

Bottom lines must be protected.

[Vixel]

Fuckin greed everywhere.

[sneak]

Inflation isn’t easing. The rate of inflation’s increase is reducing. Inflation is still inflating, and it’s still a lot more than in the past. We’re also still dealing with the effects of the inflation of the last few years. For that to be “easing”, we would have to see negative inflation for a bit to counteract some of that. We’re not.

Things are just getting worse a bit more slowly.

[mediaman]

When people say "inflation is easing," they do not mean negative inflation. We have a word for that: deflation. "Inflation is easing" means the rate of inflation is declining. If they meant deflation, they would say deflation, not easing inflation.

One a new price level is hit, if it is then stabilized, the price level is not inherently good or bad. The goodness or badness of prices is based on the purchasing power that people have to buy those goods. Real wages are still up, so it's not obvious that "things are getting worse."

[ojbyrne]

I get the impression you don’t grasp what the word “inflation” means, I think you are confusing it with the word “prices.”

[losteric]

Just to add specifics, the cumulative inflation since September 2019 is over 20% and it's still growing. All that's changed is the year-over-year velocity has decreased.

But! US average hourly income is also up about 20%. Granted, that's an average - US tech income (upper-middle class) is probably flat, as is the minimum wage-bottom.

[drexlspivey]

> the cumulative inflation since September 2019 is over 20% and it's still growing

but it’s always growing

[ska]

But at target rates it would be about 8% since 2019, not 20%.

[xxpor]

No, the minimum wage bottom (very few people any more at the federal level, ~2.5%. In 2010 it was >10%) has seen the fastest growth vs the middle and top of the ladder.

[matthewmacleod]

All that's changed is the year-over-year velocity has decreased

This is literally inflation – the rate of change of prices.

[losteric]

I know. There's a gap between common language and technical definitions. Most people use "inflation" to baseline current prices against recent memory (ie cumulative change over multiple years).

I opt against the quixotic battle for language, people typically skim such pedantry.

Also... one could argue the YoY definition is "wrong" if consumers are thinking and planning based on a longer time period. Why report YoY instead of a rolling 2 years? 5? Or perhaps different windows for specific items within the basket?

[dougmwne]

Deflation is poison to an economy. It causes everyone to sit on unproductive cash and make no investments or purchases. With the inflation rate just about 3%, that is close to the Fed’s target rate for a healthy economy where people are pushed to spend and make investments, but savings and quality of life are not eroding.

Honestly trying to get you to reevaluate your world view to be less catastrophic. Money isn’t real anyway, it’s just a convenient fiction to enable complex trade of goods and services, which are of actual value.

Unless you are in Russia, Turkey or Argentina, then please carry on with the gloom.

[logicchains]

>Deflation is poison to an economy. It causes everyone to sit on unproductive cash and make no investments or purchases.

This is a nonsensical view with no empirical backing behind it. People need things to live, they won't just stop making any purchases because their money could be worth a few percent more in future. They may buy fewer things and save more, but this is just a shift in the ratio of savings to consumption, which in the long term leads to more growth (higher savings rates lead to more growth in the long term, as there is more capital to invest).

There's not a single incidence of an economy destroyed by deflation. The depression was due to mass wage and price controls by the government, and huge tariffs, which produced all the negative effects predicted by macroeconomic theory. There are on the other hand many many economies that have been destroyed by inflation, even in recent years (e.g. Venezuela, Zimbabwe).

>Money isn’t real anyway, it’s just a convenient fiction to enable complex trade of goods and services, which are of actual value

And the fiction that inflation is good is what allows people in power to transfer your purchasing power to their buddies in the financial syatem while making you believe it's for your own good. Because purchasing power lost to inflation doesn't just disappear in thin air, it goes to the first recipients of the newly created currency, i.e. the financial system.

[dougmwne]

You can look at Japan as an example of deflationary spiral.

People buy far, far more than they need to survive. A small decrease in consumer spending can set off a major recession.

Inflation benefits anyone carrying any kind of debt. It’s great for people with mortgages and bad for anyone with bonds.

[surge]

The whole point of increasing interest rates is to encourage the same behavior, holding onto money instead of spending it, thus making money "less" available or removing it from the market. I think doing things to cause deflation to say, curb inflation from say 8% to 5% (by causing 3% deflation in value) helps as its context dependent.

I agree deflation of value into the negatives over a long term causes its own set of issues, but after you went on a big money printing spree to deal with an economic crisis, I think something like counter deflation is possible if inflation rate is still positive.

[rurp]

Wait, what? Inflation makes money hidden under a mattress lose value faster than it otherwise would have.

Unless you're upset about more money being invested in vehicles like CDs and bonds. But that isn't bad for the economy at all. The money doesn't just sit in a giant vault, it gets routed to economically useful activities.

[incomingpain]

Netflix lost the love.

https://bleedingcool.com/tv/netflix-love-is-sharing-a-passwo...

They cracked down earlier this year on password sharing. I cancelled my account; been using disney and prime more. It was a dumb time for them to backtrack on password sharing. People were already feeling like they had too many streaming services.

[surge]

They also charge more for 4k and don't deliver on it. Most people who pay for 4k notice the piss poor quality of the stream. Don't charge for something you can't deliver.

I personally enjoyed Netflix more when it was a back catalog of older quality shows, and not a glut of baking/crafting/reality competition shows. If you're going to give me the same things I can get on network television it's not worth paying for, especially if they now have an ad tier.

[glintik]

What is considered as mass? 10, 100, 1000, 10K? Number matters.

[_bhqp]

I don't have this information. Was told second hand. I updated the title of this post to a question.

[surge]

Right before the holidays...wow.

[nemo44x]

Is there a good time? If anything I'd rather get fired before the holidays and spend time with family rather than work through it all and miss time and then get fired afterwards.

[surge]

I'm not sure if there is. It depends on their financial security and the positions being eliminated. I guess if the severance is good its not so bad.

[nemo44x]

I guess the robustness of the economy too. Losing your job when there’s a lot of hiring might not be the worst. Of course, most mass firings happen when the economy isn’t doing well and finding work can be a challenge if you’re not top talent.

[brianwawok]

Its very common. I wonder if Dec is actually the highest odds month to do a layoff.. but no idea where to pull those stats.

[Espressosaurus]

https://layoffs.fyi/

In this most recent set of layoffs (which I'm defining as starting in 2022 since that's the dataset they have available) January is the worst month for layoffs.

[surge]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, most companies at least wait until after the holidays to serve the bad news.

[brianwawok]

As an evil corp thought experiment - Dec is normally low productivity.. lots of vacations ,etc. If you are going to lay someone off in Jan, why not lay off in Dec and avoid paying for paid holidays?

[surge]

Or paying out bonuses for the prior year since you don't let them finish the year that makes them entitled to the bonus.

[surge]

I know my company is hinting at layoffs in Q1, well hinting, they've literally said they've budgeted money as an expense in Q4 to pay out severance packages in Q1. So they're at least waiting until after to give people their walking papers. That said, I'm not sure if the anxiety of not knowing if you're in a future layoff is maybe worse since now everyone is concerned, but then again, at least you can act accordingly, maybe layoff the credit cards.

[dvngnt_]

hopefully severance is good. hard to find positions at the end of the year and health insurance

[John23832]

Netflix severance is phenomenal.

[hnthrowaway0328]

We are also doing mass layoff in Jan, TBH would rather have it in Dec to have peace of mind.

[withinboredom]

It would be helpful to at least know the size of the company. Just a random comment is useless.

[Espressosaurus]

I would rather have the income and not have the holidays ruined by being laid off two weeks before Christmas.

[Tao3300]

Tonight you will be visited by three spirits, Ebenezer!

[chillben]

my friend at netflix didn't hear anything though

[_bhqp]

I changed the title of the post to a question. I know people personally affected but it may not be as extensive as I was led to believe. Apologies for the FUD if so.

[John23832]

Tech or Production?

[egberts1]

Neither are the majority , is my bet.

[iamleppert]

The only way you can act is with your money. If you disagree, cancel your Netflix account and torrent their content.

[jeanloolz]

I hope they get a good deal.

[mcntsh]

I feel like there used to be somewhat of an unwritten social contract about things like layoffs before the holidays.

Seems exceptionally cruel. Honestly I feel sick to my stomach when I think about it.

[happytoexplain]

The imbalance of power is simply too great. Even for high-value positions, and even in times of high job availability, employers can always afford (by every conceivable definition of "afford") to harm employees more than employees can afford to harm employers.

Edit: A healthy society is a high-trust society where the employee-employer relationship is more balanced due to the regular old humanity that you would expect by default from humans, rather than pure economics. You can't regulate the fundamentals of societal health. When people have less and less cultural attachment to each other and to the societies in which they operate; and less and less respect for the idea of plain humanity; this is the result. The US seems to have been historically above average in this regard, but is coming down fast. A few European countries seem to be at the top of this (highly subjective) ranking.

[lukev]

Unless employees unionize.

[lnsru]

I can repeat as long as one needs. I work in Germany. Every big company is unionized. And guess what!? Bosses told, that 20% of the company will be laid off and it was ok for all union members. Packages were offered in few rounds. Home office forbidden. I didn’t got package, I left for a company with liberal home office ruling. Unions are beautiful cosmetics. When layoff happens it happens just like that.

[Tainnor]

Even for non-unionised people, labour protection laws in Germany are completely incomparable to the US:

1. Mandatory notice periods (3 months is customary, mimumum 1 month)

2. "Social selection", i.e. you're not allowed to lay off a pregnant person etc. unless you have demonstrated that there were no other people you could have let go instead

3. There needs to be cause. Downsizing can still mean you get laid off, but you can't just fire a team or an individual because you don't like them etc.

Of course, if you left a company because you didn't agree to their rules instead of being laid off, none of these protections apply to you - why would they?

[The_Colonel]

Yeah, employees are kinda unfirable which has good sides and bad sides. People don't have to worry about their existencr, but that also means you don't need to do more than the bare minimum. Which many do, and in some way it's a comfortable lifestyle. OTOH you won't find any German companies paying close to what Netflix pays.

[lnsru]

Not completely true. It depends on company size. Big ones have always good lawyers for these times

[itsoktocry]

Everyone loves unions during layoffs. But when times are flush they don't want their bonus hindered or to "protect bad apples" or "lazy workers".

Being in a union involves give and take.

[vasco]

I was curious so I went to see what is there in terms of data and found:

1. "Firms and Layoffs: The Impact of Unionization on Involuntary Job Loss" - (2003 with data from 1997) https://ideas.repec.org/p/cen/wpaper/03-09.html

> Results show that the impact of unionization is not significant except for (1) establishments that operate in the non-manufacturing sector; and (2) establishments operating in industries that have major collective bargaining agreements which contain moderate employment security provisions. Under those conditions, unionization decreases layoff rates; otherwise, unionization has no effect on layoff rates.

Does anyone have anything more recent about this?

[anamexis]

Point number 2 in particular strikes me as circular - unions did not impact layoff rates except in industries where the unions protected against layoffs.

[lukewrites]

This understanding of unions is as common as it is wrong. A union allows workers to negotiate contracts, meaning workers can have a say in how performance is assessed and how things like bonuses are handed out.

I am in a non-union workspace. There's no transparency on how bonuses or stock refreshers are handed out. A union contract could codify it.

The owner class wants workers to think unions will hurt our earnings because when workers are structurally unable to shape company policy the bosses can do whatever they want...and what they want is to maximize profits. (Like Elon Musk said: You don't need a union, I'll put in an soft serve machine for you.)

[outworlder]

There's been a lot of effort to demonize unions. Many employees won't even try because they think "unions are bad" without ever been in one.

[withinboredom]

Exactly. Unions exist for exactly this purpose and have legal powers no employee will ever have.

[happytoexplain]

Yes, though it really only helps so much with the broader problem.

[OkayPhysicist]

It's the main building block of any broader solution. You need to have large, pro-worker organizations in play in order to fight for large scale change, whether that's in a figurative sense in the courts and legislature, or in a literal sense, in the streets of Krakow or Barcelona.

[jessehorne]

Let's do it. My contact information is in my description.

[toomuchtodo]

https://code-cwa.org/

https://code-cwa.org/organize

[pizzafeelsright]

I think the power balance is fine compared to what once was or even could be.

Do you give Netflix 180 days notice or additional payments when you quit their service?

I am a W2/FTE and I have a job that I can leave with zero notice or consequence. If I was to get laid off I would imagine I would get some type of severance - even if only two weeks as that would be more than agreed upon.

There is no whip if I fail. No debt incurred if I fail to deliver on my "promises". I could definitely harm my employer with substantial consequences and I think the worst they could do is report my activities to the authorities.

[Findeton]

Unless employees save up money, then you are always prepared.

[vineyardmike]

Still harms the employee.

Preparation isn’t free, and even if you’re prepared, you’re still harmed. This isn’t some moral lesson on independence and discipline. Companies don’t need any single employee as much as that employee needs their job.

[Findeton]

You think you are harmed but if you recognized the alternative you wouldn’t be saying that. Countries with higher protections for employees have WAY lower salaries for everyone.

[toomuchtodo]

What if I told you salaries could go up if shareholder profits and management pay packages went down? You're operating from the idea that people with outsized pay packages are exceptional, when more often then not, they are lucky people benefiting from a dysfunctional system. Certainly, skill is involved, but you are weighing it too much from an outcome perspective.

I am a lucky person, but I see it for what it is, not that I am special or exceptional. A lottery ticket is not something you can base broad policy on, most especially considering the aggregate harm being incurred.

If you are not interested in a union, that is fine, it only takes a majority to win a union and 30% to hold a vote. Do you think 51% are making outsized comp and vote no? I'm interested to find out too as someone very curious.

https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em...

https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/what-we-do/conduct-elections

https://newrepublic.com/post/175274/gallup-poll-two-thirds-a...

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-closing-gender-...

[withinboredom]

This is true, but at least you get what you pay for. I moved out of the US for a lower salary, but a waaaay higher total package. I have actual high speed trains that get me to my destination measurably faster than driving, my employer and I each have to give at least a 6 week notice for either of us to be dismissed, I have actual paid vacation that I can trade for cash (instead of magical “unlimited” vacation), affordable housing right on the water, an actual pension instead of playing a risky, slow moving, stock market game, nobody calls me on the weekends, ever. And so many other things.

So yeah, my bank account might be lower, but I don’t need nearly as much as I did in the US so it feels like I actually have more.

[Findeton]

@toomuchtodo I would say that salaries don’t depend on shareholders at all but on the demand/offer balance of workers for a given job.

[hotpotamus]

At some point I'm going to need a surgery that costs maybe $50K (and maybe a lot more if there are complications). How many people have that saved up plus living expenses?

I'd like to have "fuck you" (or even "screw you") money, but the healthcare system makes it pretty tough.

[ycdxvjp]

Tech that works over time is supposed to reduce the Price of a good or service.

Tech workers and their lifestyles are not sustainable if the Tech actually does that.

[jejeyyy77]

If you act as if your employer has your best interest in mind, you're going to be in for a bad time.

You're the CEO of your life, your employer is a client, and your job is a business deal.

My advice is to do independent contracting for some time and you will have a better handle on negotiating and navigating the dynamics.

[Tao3300]

If they couldn't make it a couple more weeks without going insolvent, then Netflix is too far gone for me to want to commit to relying on them for a subscription.

[csours]

There's no good way and no good time to fire someone. A decent exit package can soften the blow.

[crazygringo]

There's never a good time. It's always cruel.

Doing them on Dec 24, yes that would be a dick move to ruin Christmas day itself.

But mid-December isn't worse than any other time. People get severance so it's not like kids are going without presents -- these aren't hourly laborers we're talking about. And you can use the holidays to take some time to think about your next plan of action.

[cableshaft]

Depends on the company. A lot of companies only give a few weeks, if any, so you're scrambling for a new job in the middle of the holidays, when most companies aren't hiring anyway.

Netflix is different though. They tend to give generous severance packages.

[rchaud]

The unwritten social contract is with shareholders. A layoff announcement is like a Christmas gift in a financial system that rewards workforce cuts.

[sitkack]

Blood sacrifice to drive up stock prices, that hopefully stay high into the new year, that can pay the taxes on last years gains.

[ysofunny]

i think most countries have to pay you when they fire you like that

[8372049]

In Norway you need to have a (mutual) period of notice of at least 1 month, starting at the change of month. (I.e. getting fired now means working until at least 31 Jan). Contracts usually increase this to three months.

This is usually beneficial for both parties, as it gives the employer time to find replacements and the employee time to find a new job.

But we generally have far, far better worker's rights than the US.

https://lovdata.no/dokument/NLE/lov/2005-06-17-62/KAPITTEL_1...

[whalesalad]

The holidays coincide with the end of the year.

[benkillin]

not fiscal year

[jsnell]

Netflix's fiscal year aligns with the calendar year.

[sneak]

I don’t agree. A job today is no guarantee or even context for a reasonable assumption for a job tomorrow.

If the month of the year in which you lose your six figure engineering job is a personal factor: you are very plainly saving too little, spending too much, or both. In this economy you should have a minimum of 4-6 months of expenses in savings in cash.

[bryanlarsen]

This is also on the front page:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38629355

Some of the people being fired will have been at Netflix less than a year and 6 figure of college debt and a hard-to-break lease on a $3000/month apartment -- do you expect them to have 6 months of salary saved?

[Tao3300]

> A job today is no guarantee or even context for a reasonable assumption for a job tomorrow.

This is rolling over in submission for evil men, thinly veiled in the language of badass cynicism.

[Findeton]

Submission is living day to day without proper planning and hoping and praying that things will always be as good as yesterday.

[parzivalm]

Sweeping generalizations, without any empathy or ability to understand circumstances different from your own is a recipe to become a person that is incapable of understanding others.

I don't see why this has to be some kind of common stance in the tech community. Yes many of us make decent money, but you have no idea what peoples life circumstances are. Learn some empathy before you comment.

[outworlder]

> I don’t agree. A job today is no guarantee or even context for a reasonable assumption for a job tomorrow.

That's called lack of labor laws.

[jimbob45]

I think it's less about the cash than the PTO. People plan ahead for time off during the holidays. If instead you have to spend the holidays frantically looking for employment, then you're massively stressed during what should be a time of relaxation. The stress placed on the employee simply isn't proportionate to how little it would take for the company to wait two more weeks to lay people off (or plan ahead and lay them off earlier).

[DamnYuppie]

To the OP's point. If you have a reasonable emergency savings account you will not have to be looking for a job over the holidays. Also there is no one looking to hire over the Holidays anyway so might as well take a beat, regroup, and focus on enjoying your time off. I know getting laid off sucks and is a kick in the gut, I have personally been laid off a few days before Christmas one year early in my career. Having the emergency fund made it not a frantic scramble and I was able to get another job starting in January.

Also one of the reasons companies fire them before the end of the year is if company pays bonuses and you are an employee at the end of the year you get said bonus even if you aren't employed at the company when they pay them out. I think a few states have laws saying you can't get around that by firing them a few days before the end of the year but I am not sure which ones.

[Findeton]

I fully agree with that, it should be a very high priority to have 6 months of savings before you go on holiday or to a restaurant or anything non essential.

[macinjosh]

Happy Holidays /s

[meltyness]

this is what a fully employed america looks like, huh

[ilrwbwrkhv]

Of course they are. All those pointless microservices crap will not lose time and money themselves.