Ask HN: How to admit that you don't want to be on the manager track anymore?

[jellyfishbeaver]

Has anyone ever been promoted to an engineering manager and decided it wasn't for them? How did you broach this subject with your superior, and is there shame in doing so? I'm feeling quite alone in this and am looking for others who may have gone through the same thing.

I'm coming up to a year of being a manager, and I am strongly considering telling my manager I regret my decision to accept this position. I'm not sure how to start this conversation without sounding like I'm giving up. My manager recommended me for this position because I was one of the most senior members on our team at the time, and the team was growing too large for him to handle alone. What started as managing a few people has turned into managing a small team of junior engineers and a slew of contractors.

My days are mostly long, unhappy, and stressful. There are some weeks where I want to pull my hair out from having to deal with all the problems that get dumped into my lap. My sleep has been disrupted and my mood is not great, but I have started working with a personal trainer and running group to burn out some frustration.

Tips, stories, advice? Thank you!

[hn_throwaway_99]

Like many of the other comments in this thread, you should know this is not uncommon at all, and there are some good ways to deal with it that will both (a) protect your happiness and physical health and (b) ensure you don't burn any bridges. Some notes:

1. You have discovered a somewhat hidden little secret: middle management (i.e. "line manager" up to senior director or so) generally pays considerably more than IC roles because the job sucks. It is a job where you have very little decision making ability, but you still have a ton of responsibility, and a lot of stuff is out of your control. It's also a job that is important but really hard: great managers are few and far between, but they can have a disproportionate impact on their team's success.

2. I very much was in your shoes about a decade or so ago. I knew I didn't really want to be a manager, but I kind of fell into it, like you (I was "promoted to my level of incompetence", so to speak). I didn't mind so much being an "in the trenches" manager (I like mentoring people, a lot), but when I got promoted to director I hated it. I spent sooo much of my time on logistics and the fire of the day, it was incredibly draining with very little reward.

3. I think the way I got out of the situation in a "good state" all around was that I just told my boss that I wanted to go back to being an IC, but that I would help find a replacement. It took nearly 10 months to get a replacement, and during that time I worked a ton and was stressed, but my boss was incredibly grateful I didn't leave him in a lurch.

In retrospect, I gave much too much leeway. It would have been bad if I "peaced out" immediately, but it also would have been totally reasonable to just say I'd help find a replacement, but after a couple months or so I'm out. That time pressure can even be a bit of a good thing.

Point being, as long as you give your superiors a clear understanding of your wishes and work hard to help your team transition to a new manager, reasonable people will be fine with that.

[fnordpiglet]

I would note that line manager sucks, but so does all the way to the top. I left IC and walked the management path to the top of megacorps and it simply got worse and worse as you went higher.

I recently got so disenchanted that I went back to IC. I found a late stage startup that pays staff+ engineers very well, didn’t take a pay cut, and my skills as a senior executive are actually quite useful as I can both bridge groups and teams with alacrity, think bigger and more strategically, but I also understand intimately the challenges management at each level experience. I’m also highly technical so I can span all aspects of the work. But I am fully an IC, and enjoy having the autonomy to say “screw it I’m programming today.”

I think my advice is if you aren’t happy stop it. Don’t worry about burning bridges or whatever. No one will be burned, at least no one worth working for or caring about. Pursue your bliss, but take the experiences gained with you and be sure to present it as a value add to your IC role when you do. If you do not move out when you’re unhappy sooner or later you will burn out and everything in your life will be harder. Avoid burnout at all costs.

[Buttons840]

You asked for stories. I went from an IC to a manager and found it extremely stressful. I would often go walk outside in a daze during the day, just to take a break. I started having digestion issues and chest pains--the doctors checked and didn't think it was my heart and so we kept searching. I eventually got shingles and then diagnosed with celiac disease in the same week. I realized this job was going to kill me so I gave 2 weeks notice and left.

I've been unemployed for a year since, fortunately I have some savings and low expenses, but my health is still dramatically worse than it was before. I can't go a day with digestion issues and chest pains; I haven't had a single meal where I don't worry about it. I know a genetic disease like celiac didn't come from stress, but stress might have activated it.

[kirubakaran]

I hope you feel better soon! If you ever feel any doubts, please know that you absolutely did the right thing.

[SkyPuncher]

I had the GI symptoms after I switched to a very, very stressful management role. Head of engineering at an early stage startup with short runway.

We raised and I went back to IC. My health is slowly recovering, including the GI issues.

[calamari4065]

I had this conversation with my manager some months ago.

I told him I didn't like managing others, and that I felt my place was as an engineer and not a manager.

That's pretty much it.

I really don't understand why people seem so surprised that an honest conversation is the solution to almost all interpersonal problems.

[fendale]

One reason we have so many poor engineering managers is because the top engineers get promoted to management. The skills for the two jobs are very different.

I’m sure many good engineers have tried management and found it to be not for them. Have an open discussion with your manager and see where it goes, as if you don’t you will likely end up applying for an engineering role elsewhere and leave anyway.

[teo_zero]

In many companies, newly promoted managers are assigned a mentor to consult periodically or when needed. They usually are far away from your command chain so that there's no conflict of interest, but close enough to your environment so that the suggestions are pertinent to your work. They are not supposed to act as consultants for your job, nor to take decisions for you, but you would talk to them about how you feel about your work and the difficulties you encounter. They would inspire you rather than drive you.

Ask your boss or HR if anything similar can be set up for you.

Of course I'm assuming you still want to adapt to your management role and not to give up your position completely.

[slalomskiing]

It’s not uncommon

I know someone who went from IC to manager back to IC at the same company.

They stayed on the IC track and are now a principal

If you want to stay at that company I would just tell them but offer to stay as manager and help with transition while they find a replacement

[kermatt]

If you don't like a role, pivot. Not everyone can (or should) be a manager, and whatever you do you should not hate. Note I'm not saying a job should be lovable, just that it is a means to an end and should not be intolerable, for those of us who lucked into easy roles (keyboard instead of a shovel).

For OP and everyone here, why do you let your job have such a negative impact on life? I'm reading in this post's comments about long hours (the least of the problem), crippling stress leading to physical symptoms, sleep problems, etc. And it is a common theme in many places.

What prevents you from defining a reasonable work day / week, and simply letting that did not get accomplished today / this week roll into the next?

If your work does not directly save lives, what will fail if left to the next work day? Will people die? Will the business fail tomorrow, leaving you an everyone out of work? Doctors, nurses, field emergency personnel must respond immediately and for as long as it takes. I doubt that few of us whose primary tool is a keyboard have the same impact.

I'm not being snarky here, and when younger struggled for balance between work and literally everything else which was more important. It took a while to learn that if your gig requires heroics for non-heroic business outcomes, answer which to hop ASAP (The only way to win is to not play the game). The difference is back then there was not the level of public discourse then as today (pre-internet forums). I'd like to think I would have done some things differently if HN and r/antiwork were available to give me some perspective from others.

Another take is if your situation is one of chasing a Big Payout while scraping by, have you looked hard at the odds? Everyone I have worked with who sacrificed family and fun for an "Exit" did not see it, or the value was so diluted simple math told them they were working for something approaching minimum wage. The sacrifice did not add up, except for a few "founders", which as a term became a red-flag for me. I'm not saying exits with big bucks are not possible, just more rare than people want to believe.

The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world is that our jobs is what we are defined by.

[stcroixx]

Line managers are expected to ensure their team meets deadlines, which are often unrealistic. Miss enough of these and the line manager gets fired. I’ve seen it happen many times. If you have responsibilities and dependents the near constant risk of being fired is extremely stressful and terrible for your mental and physical health.

[kermatt]

My job as a manager is to ensure there are no unrealistic deadlines, and when peer managers suggest them, push back hard. Otherwise the result is a feedback loop where burnout affects subsequent projects, and a tech debt spiral results.

Thankfully I have never had a gig where pay was increased if unreasonable timelines were met, nor would I want one.

[maximinus_thrax]

> ever been promoted to an engineering manager

Your first sentence is a red flag for me. This is not a promotion. If you think this is a promotion, you've already failed. If the org/company thinks this is a promotion, they need to work on their culture.

This is a new job, with different incentives, different skills, different responsabilitites. Thinking of this as being a promotion already poisons the well as you're considering yourself 'better' than the ICs you're supposed to work with. Stressing the 'with', as a promotion implies they'll be working 'for'.

To answer the original question, this happens all the time. In my current job, our manager left for a different company. An IC was handpicked to lead the team (basically a puppet of our M2). They found out in 6 months they don't want to do this anymore. No big deal, they've communicated this to their manager and assisted the org in hiring a new but experienced manager. It took another couple of months, but there was no harm done.

Just talk to your manager. Tell them you don't think you're a good fit for a management position at this time in your career. As you're a new manager, they will definitely have a plan B for this.

Good luck.

[jgerrish]

I'm sorry this has happened to you. Thank you for posting.

I've mentioned this before, but teachers and managers are some of the most important people we have in this world. And when they don't want to do their job, the people they support suffer.

But with engineering and software engineering, so many of the senior roles have leadership responsibilities. So marking yourself as unavailable hurts your ability to get a job.

For most engineers this probably won't matter.

I don't have a good solution. I hope you're not afraid of confronting the issue head on if you really don't want to be a manager. Talk with some friends or colleagues I guess.

Good luck. I hope you don't have to give up profressional engineering if you love it.

[AnimalMuppet]

You're either going to ask to get taken off of management, or you're going to quit, or you're going to just try to suffer in silence until you do one of the first two.

I'd try the first one. The third one is damaging you. Yes, you've improved your ability to cope with the damage, but... my father suffered through a job he hated for seven years. I saw what it did to him, and what it did to his family. Yeah, I know, every job has parts that you don't like, but some are worse than others. If it's bad enough that you need out, you'll know. Even if you can cope... why live under that burden for the next X years?

If you go to your boss, the problem is that you were his way of escaping from his intolerable situation. He likely won't be open to you wanting out, unless you offer him an alternative. "I think Person Y could be good in this role; I can stay in it for two months to help them get up to speed."

If they don't take it, then you can look for a new job. (Don't leave the old one first if you can help it!) Tell the new people straight out - "I don't want to be a manager; I want to be a senior contributor." Some places will reject you for that reason - they think all senior people have to become managers. But some will be fine with it. It just may take a bit of looking.

[sokoloff]

This happens a lot more often than you might think and I agree with the sibling that EM should not be considered a promotion over IC (and I’ve tried to shape our career ladder/matrix to minimize that, but we do operate in a market where that influence exists and we can’t ignore that entirely).

If your alternative is eventually quitting, approach the discussion with that in the back of your mind. You don’t want to “threaten” that, but realizing that it’s not working for you and talking about what would work is helpful for both sides.

As an exec, I’ve helped employees navigate this a handful of times and have a few more ahead of me I’m sure. I don’t want you to be unhappy and I don’t want you to suck at your job. If it’s not working for you, both are likely to happen and so let’s talk about it.

If your company is one with a significantly higher comp for EM vs IC, I would understand that and indicate openness to switching back to the IC comp (which is only fair, but your director or HR might be worried about you holding unrealistic expectations, treating a comp change as a constructive dismissal, and therefore not be as flexible as a result).

But overall: if you don’t like what you’re doing and don’t see a prospect for that improving a lot, speak up and make the change that you know you need. Life’s too short to hate a big part of it, assuming any option to not hate it exists.

[tgittos]

No tip, just story.

I moved into an engineering management role from IC for a year at a previous company. I also found the experience unfulfilling and wanted to move back to my old IC level.

Right around my yearly review I told my manager that I wasn't digging it. Personally I found the effort-reward loop of management to be too long, and preferred the more immediate satisfaction of releasing incremental features to be more compelling than formally mentoring and guiding the developers under me. I explained this, and my manager was supportive and helped me find a more senior IC role in a different team.

We didn't really get to have the chance to talk about management succession plans as shortly after we had a RIF and my former team was absorbed into another team and the product we worked on was put on life support instead.

I personally didn't feel any shame as I was fairly certain I didn't want to be a manager. I only accepted the role because I was pressured to at least "give it a chance" by my ex-wife who thought it was a good career move. I was apprehensive at the idea that I might have to leave to be an IC again but it turns out those fears were unfounded.

[rahimnathwani]

I'm curious about this part:

"a small team of junior engineers and a slew of contractors"

Do you think you'd feel the same way if you were managing, senior engineers (full time employees) instead?

I've sometimes seen people struggle with these situations not because of the demands of the job itself but because they have the wrong people in their team, and feel they have no way to correct the situation.

[thibautg]

I started as manager a bit after the start of the pandemic and left after 9 months.

I was full of hope and illusions, but I had to recognize that it was not for me. Too many fires to manage, urgencies, external and internal politics, changes of management, lots of deliverables each week for the executive committee… What surprised me was that managing the team was very rewarding and I quite enjoyed it. I also benefited from a mentor and a coach.

But at some point, I was asked to do stuff that I found dubious ethically (not illegal or anything, just some “flexibility” with the truth) and I became ill. I had to take antidepressants and anxiolytics. A few weeks later I had to take a sick leave for 4-5 weeks, then I talked with my N+1. I have the chance that I work for the state, so I just had to ask to get my previous position back. I thought that I would be burned, but I was directly assigned in the core team of the biggest business transformation project the company had ever had, together with MBB consultants. I also got like 5 other internal offers from other teams that wanted to hire me.

I do not regret my passage as manager because I met a lot of people and grew my network. It was a very exposed position so I had to manage a lot of bullsh*t but it was very central, so I had the privilege to work with all the executives of the company.

I lost a bit of salary (management bonus) when I got back as individual engineer but got my serenity back. Now I’ve just been promoted to Principal Engineer, which is almost the same package as when I was manager, but for an IC. I also find it important for me for the recognition it gives.

So now I understand better that middle management is really hard and, for me, not worth the price. But I have more appreciation for my colleagues that are managers. I may consider becoming a manager again in the future, but I am not sure yet.

[gwnywg]

Depends what is your relationship with decision makers. If you can honestly say you trust your principals- just tell them. Otherwise it probably will be difficult to turn things around without jumping ships..

I was recently close to move into management but since I have good coms with leadership I explained I will not be performing well in that role- they accepted.

[gtirloni]

I think this is the most important aspect of this. People have a lot of advice but the reality is that each company and each manager will be different and see this in a different way.

The company may have invested a lot in training, or the boss doesn't have anyone else to put in your place, or it'll be costly, or it'll have high visibility and people will start asking questions, etc, etc, etc.

[radiator]

How to admit? Why use the verb admit in the first place, it is telling of a defeatist attitude.

This is still a matter of communication, you need to explain to them your situation and your wishes. You already did it in writing here, and quite well. You could prepare written notes and have them with you during the meeting.

[themadturk]

At my employer it's not terribly unusual for an analyst or developer to become a manager (team manager in most cases), stay in that role for several years, and elect to return to "the ranks." Typically these people go into the role of "senior" developer or analyst. Everyone seems happy with this changing of roles; valuable experience stays in the company, and often with increased productivity. One manager I know of demoted himself to senior analyst in anticipation of retirement, and hasn't retired yet (five years later). He might be enjoying himself too much.

[cutthegrass2]

I sympathise with your predicament. I'm in a similar position facing a somewhat similar quandary.

A question I keep asking myself is, given my age (early 40's), and the greenshoots LLM's actually being useful writing code, should I just stay in my leadership role and grind it out for the rest of my professional working life or try and write code again for a few years?

I've been wrestling with this for the past 12 months and still no further on with my decision.

[da39a3ee]

I did this. I just went to the managers' meeting and said "I'm not being a manager any more, I'm going back to IC". I guess I talked to the manager-of-managers first. Is there really a blocker to you just doing that? I think it's unlikely but if you lose your job you sound to me like someone with enough experience and interviewing chops to find another that you're excited about?

[janosdebugs]

I know several people who went back to IC. All the feedback I heard was either applause or envy of the person's guts to do it. (Usually it came with a significant salary drop.) This typically happened after a few years as a manager though.

My 2 cents: just say it as it is. Your manager doesn't need you having a burnout all if a sudden any more than you do.

[beardyw]

I think you have been unfortunate to end up in a difficult position at this stage. I have had management jobs that were frankly too boring. In any job you have to consider if you are, not necessarily happy, but at least comfortable. I think your current problem is more a lack of support from higher up than anything else.

[xyse53]

Did you make a clean cut over to manager or are you basically carrying much of your IC load/responsibility in addition to the new management stuff?

In my experience it takes a while to cut over because many managers were strong ICs and it's difficult for the team to suddenly lose that productivity.

[twunde]

This is honestly very common, especially for first time managers. I've seen this happen at least 5+ times. Keep in mind that switching back to an IC time doesn't preclude you from being a manager in the future, and I'm fact many people switch from manager to IC back to manager ala https://www.google.com/amp/s/charity.wtf/2017/05/11/the-engi...

In terms of advice, talk to your manager about the fact that you're struggling.

[nathants]

start hacking in your spare time. builders gotta be building.

start interviewing casually, prefer small companies and early stage companies.

when you find interesting people, join them!

welcome back, and good luck. life is too short and engineering is too fun.

[drakonka]

Not EM but I was made a team lead of a small team. I still got to write code, but was also to delegate tasks to other team mates, hold 1-1s, sit in more "management-y" planning meetings, do a lot more JIRA wrangling for multiple contributors, etc. I had expressed my hesitation since I really liked being an IC and wanted to continue developing in that direction, but was open to giving it a solid try - you never know, right? So I tried it for a few months and ultimately decided that, at least at the time, it wasn't for me. I talked to my TD and line manager about going back on the IC track.

The way I approached it was:

* Making clear that I greatly appreciate the opportunity to try this new role and did give it a _proper_, fully committed try.

* Clearly expressing what exactly isn't working for me personally about it, and why I think I'd be both more happy and more useful as an IC.

As part of the second point, I mostly expressed that I feel very responsible for the output of my work. As an IC, that output entails my own code, reviews, productivity, planning, comms, etc. As an IC, I am comfortable taking on and driving high-stakes projects and taking responsibility for them. It can get stressful (as rushing to a release deadline in that industry usually is), but it's always been "good stress".

But as a team lead, I felt responsible for the planning and output of others on the team and the team as a whole. Making sure they have everything they need for success, _their_ output along with my own, how others' time management fits into our deliveries, the quality of their code as well as my own, what tools and support they need, etc. I think some people thrive in that situation, but for me it culminated in a bad kind of stress. And I just didn't think I could do the position justice like someone who genuinely enjoyed that side of it.

The other part of it was that I felt like my time to grow as a programmer was diminished by the extra planning meetings, more ticket management, 1-1s, etc.

They were a little disappointed at first; from what I understand they thought I was doing a good job. But they were supportive nonetheless. I still got promoted (on the IC track) in my end of year review so it worked out.

From what I understand it doesn't always go so smoothly. I've heard of some places where trying to move back to IC ends up in practice being treated as a sort of demotion (or at least stagnation?). Luckily this was not the case where I worked at the time. The company had a documented job matrix of engineering career progression along IC, TD, and Management tracks.

[yieldcrv]

I used to chase the corporate ladder for the sake of chasing the corporate ladder

sometimes you have to do it just to realize what role/level you actually find fulfilling

[inhumantsar]

one of my managers is going through this right now. it's absolutely worth having the conversation.

you might even find that a lot of what you're facing are solvable problems that your manager can help you with.

[minaguib]

This is more common than you think. So long as you know what you want as an outcome, don't overthink it. Unless you're working with higher-than-average levels of sociopathy, you'll find that you can talk about it and transition to something you find more rewarding.

Also try not to frame it as something shameful/step-down. Individual Contributors and Management are entirely different jobs - clearest evidence of that is what your calendar and day-to-day look like. There's some overlap, but it's a pivot, and that's okay.

(P.S. Stick with the personal trainer and running group :)

Good luck.

[kidgorgeous]

indeed.com

[tracer4201]

  > Has anyone ever been promoted to an engineering manager and decided it wasn't for them?

Engineering manger and IC are different jobs. An EM title is never a promotion. It is a career or job role change. The skill sets and value proposition are entirely different.

So much personal stress and in some cases negative team or business impact could be prevented if we stop thinking of management as a promotion and more as a career shift.

If you’re unhappy, think about root causing what specifically it is you’re unhappy about. If you DO want to be a manager but not for this team, that’s a different challenge than if you do not want to manage people at all.

If it’s something you don’t want to do, have a heart to heart with your direct manager and tell him or her how you feel. This is less about quitting - if your manager is worth working for, they’ll give you the right encouragement to stay in the role and help remove obstacles and unnecessary challenges off your plate. Or they should help you transition and return to an IC role.