[mvncleaninst]

> Whereas if you're not in the top tier of "chosen" people and experience a few painful rejections and setbacks, you're made to feel that's just what you deserve and what you're stuck with, and there's not much you can do to improve your lot.

You aren't "made to feel anything", it's a two way street. You have someone who says something negative, and you have the choice to listen to it or disregard it. That's a choice

> I think a lot about how the world would be better if more people were encouraged and empowered to go on long-term journeys of deep personal growth

I think if you're motivated enough to do this, you're already motivated enough to go out and get the career success or love life or whatever you're after. Frankly doing that is probably simpler and more straightforward than "self discovery" or whatever. There's a Carlin bit for this https://youtube.com/watch?v=4s3bJYHQXYg

[watwut]

> You have someone who says something negative, and you have the choice to listen to it or disregard it. That's a choice

This is just not true about human psychology. Like it is not true at all.

People are affected by what is said about them. And those few unaffected generally tend to have much bigger issues in relationships, because their lack of caring usually makes them into very uncomfortable to be around.

[maximus-decimus]

> You have someone who says something negative, and you have the choice to listen to it or disregard it. That's a choice

That's like saying "You have someone punching you in the face, and you have the choice to be hurt by it or not. Being hurt by being punched in the face is a choice."

You don't choose to be hurt and you don't choose the consequences of being hurt.

[InSteady]

>You don't choose to be hurt and you don't choose the consequences of being hurt.

Only the first part is true. We don't get to choose our emotional responses, but we absolutely can determine how we react to all manner of discomforts and challenges. For instance, you can discover and put in the work of practicing healthy and sustainable coping mechanisms for the inevitable fear, rejection, and hurt you will feel in life when other people treat you in ways that don't suit you. You can also choose to put in work towards changing your outlook and core beliefs, so you are much more resilient to being hurt by the words and actions of other people. Emotional resilience is a skill (but it is not at all the same as being emotionally repressed, which is a maladaptive defense mechanism).

Being physically or emotionally hurt is not the same as being harmed. People can be punched in the face and yet recover with grace and equanimity. Indeed, even if that graceful recovery involves running the fuck away from a pointless fight. This isn't easy stuff, but it is possible.

[johnnyanmac]

>you can discover and put in the work of practicing healthy and sustainable coping mechanisms for the inevitable fear, rejection, and hurt you will feel in life when other people treat you in ways that don't suit you.

Thats a skill and like sports, there are certain affinities to having and tailloring that skill. It's why we call it "emotional intelligence". There will be some absolute saints that can manage their emotions to an almost sociopathic level, and 90+% of people can train their lives and never truly obtain such skill. We are shaped by early experiences, memories, and traumas too much to truly say "anyone can do this".

Likewise, being punched in the face is a skill. But not necessarily one that is "mastered", just mitigated. the best boxers in the world will get punched enough to have permanent damage, even with modern safety regulations. That's just a fact. Meanwhile, most people who don't spend time fighting will have different biology that determines how well they can take a face punch. Someone more muscular will take it better than a meek lad. You may not even realize the former got punched the next day wihle the latter has a scar that never heals. You can't fully control that without a major lifestyle change.

[tekla]

> You don't choose to be hurt and you don't choose the consequences of being hurt.

Yes you do. You totally do.

[johnnyanmac]

How so? If you're just walking on the street and you happen to get sucker punched out of nowhere by a person you never met nor will never meet again, what could you have done to choose "not to get hurt"? enroll in martial arts and train your peripheral vision to always be on guard?

I won't even entertain "you choose the consequences of being hurt". Mike Tyson says it best: "everyone's got a plan until they are punched in the face"

[zlg_codes]

Someone throwing insults or punches at you that hurt is not something you choose, it's something you feel. Why do you think the attacker bears no responsibility?

[tomhoward]

I love Carlin and it’s a good gag with some truth in it.

But it assumes we’re all hardwired to be a certain way, which is the very assumption I’m arguing needs to change.

It’s true most self-help is ineffective, and it’s because you can’t change much in your life just by consciously making an effort to change, or just “trying harder”. There is a lot you can change by undoing subconscious self-sabotage patterns and undertaking “letting go” practices, over a long enough period of time. This kind of stuff is fringe now but is growing in popularity because people are finding it far more effective than mainstream self-help and therapy (I sure have).

[gosub100]

You don't think mainstream self help or therapy uses the concept of forgiveness or breaking self destructive beliefs and patterns? I implore you to tell me what it is you think therapy actually does and contrast it with whatever this newfangled fringe approach is.

[Tarq0n]

Undoing self-sabotaging thought patterns is the essence of cognitive behavioral therapy though.

[InSteady]

I think you both might be talking about the same thing. CBT is much more detailed and comprehensive than "practicing letting go," but in a sense, accepting reality and then letting go (of our maladaptive beliefs and coping behaviors) is at its core. GP may have encountered CBT from an alternative source, and thus doesn't associate it with 'mainstream therapy.' Which I'm not even sure if CBT is prominent enough yet to be considered the main clinical paradigm.

[abrichr]

> There is a lot you can change by undoing subconscious self-sabotage patterns and undertaking “letting go” practices, over a long enough period of time. This kind of stuff is fringe now but is growing in popularity

Can you please recommend further reading?

[InSteady]

Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT) is an excellent curriculum for training in the use of a set of tools along these lines (and many more skills besides).

[mvncleaninst]

first off sorry if my initial response reads brusque, I've been burnt by the self help stuff and learned the hard way to be skeptical of it, didn't think that the skepticism would lead to this much argument...

> There is a lot you can change by undoing subconscious self-sabotage patterns and undertaking “letting go” practices,

What do you mean by this, like buddhism or something like it? Is there some kind of literature on this?

[zlg_codes]

"Letting go" is suspiciously close to "be a doormat for others", it smells of BS.

I've gone to therapy with the CBT method and it's total garbage meant to keep you meek and accepting of the bullshit people pile on you in life.

The correct solution to abuse is a punch to the face. Civil actions and words have no effect.

[johnnyanmac]

>The correct solution to abuse is a punch to the face.

if you can afford it, sure. But that civil lawsuit you dismiss will suddenly crush you if you punch the wrong person in the face.

Maybe there is a bit too much soft footed training these days, but there's also a very good reason, financially and legally, to know when to hold your punches. At least be smart enough to get an explicit reason on record before you start swinging fists.

[zlg_codes]

I like where you showed me that the civil way gets results.

Oh wait.

It may be ugly but people tend to leave someone alone after getting knocked out. Words are a warning, a substitute for violence. We use words because violence is ugly. When words don't work, you don't use more words. That's insanity.

[johnnyanmac]

0 tends to be more than a negative number. I'm not saying not to resort to violence. I'm just saying it has a higher chance to backfire than retreating.

[mvncleaninst]

> I've gone to therapy with the CBT method and it's total garbage meant to keep you meek and accepting of the bullshit people pile on you in life.

Really? I've never done it but have heard some negative stuff, like what do they teach you?

[zlg_codes]

The gist of it is to question existing thoughts or reactions, which sounds good on paper because how else do you grow without introspection? However, it does little to solve real mental or emotional issues. I felt like I was talking through a workbook and not connecting to a real human.

It's led to reduced trust in psychology and psychiatry. Maybe in another hundred years we'll have a clue or two.

[tomhoward]

> “Letting go" is suspiciously close to "be a doormat for others"

What I’m referring to is nothing like that whatsoever, and I’m not talking about/advocating CBT, or anything that involves adopting meekness.

[moralestapia]

To everyone here, this is how a confident person with a healthy dose of self-esteem feels and behaves like (with a pinch of salt as this depiction is a bit idealistic).

To @mvncleaninst, not everyone has the same emotional strength and tools to cope with these sort of situations, and trust me, I am not apologizing for mediocrity and lack of courage, I absolutely loathe when people try to excuse what's under their control with made-up stories, disorders and whatnot.

Depression is a real thing, some people have gone through real shit. An example, many people grow up in completely dysfunctional households, you have no idea how that can absolutely destroy someone's perception of it's own value. Same thing with poverty, a lot of people had dealt with both of these things and most likely many more. The wounds inflicted by these circumstances stay with people their whole lives, one cannot just "shrug off these things and carry on" as they have become imbued with them.

Life can break absolutely anybody; if you don't believe this is true, congrats. you've had it easy, so far.

From (George) Carlin's wikipedia entry:

"Because of my abuse of drugs, I neglected my business affairs and had large arrears with the IRS, and that took me eighteen to twenty years to dig out of."

It seems that your motivation expert actually does much worse than the average person on things that require planning and self-control. Colour me surprised. Is this part of his comedy act?

[throwaway2037]

I like this post. It rings true with me. One trend I have noticed in my life: If people grew up under difficult circumstances, it seems to sap their grit (ability to grind). They mostly give up more easily. However, at 1-5% of those can turn the difficult circumstances into a super power and "out grind" anyone. It is weird how it happens.

[guerrilla]

> You aren't "made to feel anything", it's a two way street. You have someone who says something negative, and you have the choice to listen to it or disregard it. That's a choice

Right, this is why we can choose not to feel the pain of being punched in the face.

No.

[ben_w]

I get your point, but would also like to add that to a certain extent (and variable by person) pain from physical injuries can be influenced by psychology.

There was a time I was cycling at night down a half-finished cycle route, the kerb separating it from the guided busway had been placed but not the tarmac, but I couldn't see that at night (I had a light but it still wasn't visible).

I tried to leave the cycle path, bounced off the surprise rise of the kerb, and it hurt before I hit the ground. Picked myself up, stopped thinking about it, went on to the cinema, watched the film, when the lights came up I realised quite how badly I'd been grazed.

Sometimes I can switch the pain off on purpose, sometimes I can't. The dichotomy isn't even just with regards to physical pain, it's also a sometimes-yes-sometimes-no with emotional distress, so I can go into a "public performance" mode on a stage and goof about no trouble, but I can't seem to shake my deep dislike of mere phone calls.

People are weird, I'm a person therefore I'm weird. :)

[johnnyanmac]

>bounced off the surprise rise of the kerb, and it hurt before I hit the ground.

Sounds like a form of phantom pain. I don't know the exact term but it is a well studied phenomenon. one that, AFAIK, isn't fully understood.

But yes, your brain can very much lie to you. Just look up how much post processing your brain will do to help you see the way you see.

>Sometimes I can switch the pain off on purpose, sometimes I can't.

yeah, we have chemicals in our body to do that. It doesn't turn off pain automatically because it is in fact a good thing to realize when you're bleeding out of your leg. It only turns that off for you semi-voluntarily if your brain involuntarily determines (again based on other chemicals) that GTFO is more beneficial to survival than tending to your wound. I'm not going to say it's impossible to train these excretions of chemicals. I will argue that this is probably something you can train for years to do and fail, though.

There's so much about our bodies that still eludes the brightest minds. Even a function as basic as sleeping and why and how it benefits us is still not fully in our understanding.

[FireBeyond]

That's not a psychological response, that's adrenaline. It numbs the pain response because in fight or flight situations, it's a distraction. It's not a choice, and it's fleeting and transient, a few minutes to twenty minutes.

[ben_w]

> a few minutes to twenty minutes.

How about minus one second and plus 169 minutes? (It was the first of the Hobbit trilogy).

[mvncleaninst]

You're taking the word out of context and using a different definition of it

[ravishi]

You're literally "made to feel" certain ways. During your formative years someone was shouting you suck and generally acting as you're a burden and unwanted? You'll feel that shit for the rest of your life no matter what you "decide to think". It becomes ingrained in you. It becomes who you are. You can work on it like GP said and improve the situation but don't act like it's trivial or just a change of perspective. It isn't. It's like your body needs healing after a fractured bone. Your mind also needs that time and setting.

[mvncleaninst]

I'm not saying that trauma isn't real, I'm saying that it doesn't have to impact your prospects in life. You don't have to let it define you. There's a capacity to sidestep it

Here's a personal example: having abusive family members tell me I won't be successful or independent, being hurt by it but knowing in the back of my head that I would get out of there. It's hope

And I get it: not all trauma is equal here, but if I have to choose one extreme I'd prefer the one that gives people some shred of agency