[tomhoward]

I love Carlin and it’s a good gag with some truth in it.

But it assumes we’re all hardwired to be a certain way, which is the very assumption I’m arguing needs to change.

It’s true most self-help is ineffective, and it’s because you can’t change much in your life just by consciously making an effort to change, or just “trying harder”. There is a lot you can change by undoing subconscious self-sabotage patterns and undertaking “letting go” practices, over a long enough period of time. This kind of stuff is fringe now but is growing in popularity because people are finding it far more effective than mainstream self-help and therapy (I sure have).

[gosub100]

You don't think mainstream self help or therapy uses the concept of forgiveness or breaking self destructive beliefs and patterns? I implore you to tell me what it is you think therapy actually does and contrast it with whatever this newfangled fringe approach is.

[Tarq0n]

Undoing self-sabotaging thought patterns is the essence of cognitive behavioral therapy though.

[InSteady]

I think you both might be talking about the same thing. CBT is much more detailed and comprehensive than "practicing letting go," but in a sense, accepting reality and then letting go (of our maladaptive beliefs and coping behaviors) is at its core. GP may have encountered CBT from an alternative source, and thus doesn't associate it with 'mainstream therapy.' Which I'm not even sure if CBT is prominent enough yet to be considered the main clinical paradigm.

[abrichr]

> There is a lot you can change by undoing subconscious self-sabotage patterns and undertaking “letting go” practices, over a long enough period of time. This kind of stuff is fringe now but is growing in popularity

Can you please recommend further reading?

[InSteady]

Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT) is an excellent curriculum for training in the use of a set of tools along these lines (and many more skills besides).

[mvncleaninst]

first off sorry if my initial response reads brusque, I've been burnt by the self help stuff and learned the hard way to be skeptical of it, didn't think that the skepticism would lead to this much argument...

> There is a lot you can change by undoing subconscious self-sabotage patterns and undertaking “letting go” practices,

What do you mean by this, like buddhism or something like it? Is there some kind of literature on this?

[zlg_codes]

"Letting go" is suspiciously close to "be a doormat for others", it smells of BS.

I've gone to therapy with the CBT method and it's total garbage meant to keep you meek and accepting of the bullshit people pile on you in life.

The correct solution to abuse is a punch to the face. Civil actions and words have no effect.

[johnnyanmac]

>The correct solution to abuse is a punch to the face.

if you can afford it, sure. But that civil lawsuit you dismiss will suddenly crush you if you punch the wrong person in the face.

Maybe there is a bit too much soft footed training these days, but there's also a very good reason, financially and legally, to know when to hold your punches. At least be smart enough to get an explicit reason on record before you start swinging fists.

[zlg_codes]

I like where you showed me that the civil way gets results.

Oh wait.

It may be ugly but people tend to leave someone alone after getting knocked out. Words are a warning, a substitute for violence. We use words because violence is ugly. When words don't work, you don't use more words. That's insanity.

[johnnyanmac]

0 tends to be more than a negative number. I'm not saying not to resort to violence. I'm just saying it has a higher chance to backfire than retreating.

[mvncleaninst]

> I've gone to therapy with the CBT method and it's total garbage meant to keep you meek and accepting of the bullshit people pile on you in life.

Really? I've never done it but have heard some negative stuff, like what do they teach you?

[zlg_codes]

The gist of it is to question existing thoughts or reactions, which sounds good on paper because how else do you grow without introspection? However, it does little to solve real mental or emotional issues. I felt like I was talking through a workbook and not connecting to a real human.

It's led to reduced trust in psychology and psychiatry. Maybe in another hundred years we'll have a clue or two.

[tomhoward]

> “Letting go" is suspiciously close to "be a doormat for others"

What I’m referring to is nothing like that whatsoever, and I’m not talking about/advocating CBT, or anything that involves adopting meekness.