[kingofpandora]

Remember that an advisor to Natanyahu tweeted that the Al-Arabi Hospital was bombed by Israel because it was being used by Hamas.

No, I'm not saying that the hospital was actually bombed by Israel; I'm saying that everything that Israel bombs is labelled with the "used by Hamas" tag as justification for what this really is.

No one actually believes that all or even most of the buildings destroyed in this campaign was "used by Hamas" if you are being honest with yourself. It's obviously collective punishment and revenge with a little bit of show ("we dropped leaflets" or "we sent warnings by SMS") for those who need it in order to go to bed at night.

[edanm]

> No one actually believes that all or even most of the buildings destroyed in this campaign was "used by Hamas" if you are being honest with yourself. It's obviously collective punishment and revenge with a little bit of show ("we dropped leaflets" or "we sent warnings by SMS") for those who need it in order to go to bed at night.

Sorry, no. I don't believe that.

Granted, I'm Israeli, and have far more trust in the Israeli public and soldiers than most people in the world. But it really is true that Hamas uses human shields. It really is true that they place bases in places like hospitals.

And it also is really true that many, hopefully most Israelis, wouldn't comply with an order to bomb a building only to kill civilians with no military value.

I understand why that might be a statement that outsiders wouldn't trust. And I'm sure there have been plenty of mistakes and even many times where people did do the wrong thing, like in every conflict in the world. I just don't think that as a matter of policy, Israel is bombing buildings with no military reason.

[kingofpandora]

So you look at the aerial and satellite photography and you really believe that every last building was justifiably destroyed as a legitimate military target?

If that's the case, then the government propaganda has done its job. There's nothing more to say.

[true_religion]

I’m not sure you can bomb things in a city and not get collateral damage. Also, the poster admitted that they get things wrong.

It’s only natural to err on the side of false positives when the alternative is allowing your enemy to live and kill your people later.

This shouldn’t be seen as any sort of approval for this war. I would prefer no war, to the natural consequences of having one.

[absrd]

What could possibly ground your faith in the Israeli government, given the intelligence failure of massive proportions we all witnessed on 10/7? How can you believe that the same government which failed to foresee a massive Hamas offensive on its own border just weeks ago, is now suddenly aware of the exact positions of underground Hamas bases deep within the Gaza strip, and is even privy to phone calls between Hamas operatives?

That's also not to mention the many times Israel has been caught lying to cover its own military actions. You only have to look as far back as the targeted killing of Shireen Abu Akleh

[matsemann]

> But it really is true that Hamas uses human shields. It really is true that they place bases in places like hospitals.

Then don't fucking bomb it. You're defending war crimes and terrorism.

[edanm]

> Then don't fucking bomb it. You're defending war crimes and terrorism.

1. It's not a war crime. If one side places their militants in a hospital, the hospital is no longer afforded protection. If anyone is commiting war crimes, it's Hamas, by placing their HQ in a hospital.

2. As much as I'd love to not bomb anybody, they are actively at this moment shooting rockets at me. What exactly should I do? Just wait until they inevitably manage to kill me?

[matsemann]

2. Who are "they" shooting rockets at you? The children you're killing? The civilians in a hospital getting treatment form previous bombings?

I stand by my statement. You're defending war crimes and terrorism. It's what it is, no matter how justified you believe it is to kill these innocent people.

[edanm]

> Who are "they" shooting rockets at you? The children you're killing? The civilians in a hospital getting treatment form previous bombings?

The Hamas militants that are using hospitals as a base of operations.

If you honestly want to discuss this, then here's my suggestion - let's set aside the factual question for a second. If it's true that Hamas is firing rockets from within hospitals and/or using hospitals as a base of operations, would you then consider it justified to attack back?

If yes, then we just have the factual matter of whether it's true or not and we can check that.

If no, then my followup question is - so what should we do? What other option is there if someone is firing rockets at you right now, if you refuse to fire back? I'm asking in all sincerity, I'm literally running to a bomb shelter multiple times a day as rockets are fired at me, is there something you think is ok for my government to do to try and defend me?

[srazzaque]

I'll preface this with the fact that I appreciate the opportunity for discourse without degenerating to our base/tribal/Neanderthal brains. And, also, a chance to converse with someone outside my own echo chambers. Most of my circle is non-Israeli, and non-Jewish.

> I'm literally running to a bomb shelter multiple times a day as rockets are fired at me

I'm sorry to hear this. This must be a terrible way to live, constantly in mortal fear of attacks from the other side. I will be the first to admit that I cannot relate to this, I've always lived in peaceful/stable environments (touch wood).

Can I pose a completely hypothetical counter-question, based on your own question with one variable changed: If it were somehow true that Hamas was firing rockets from _within Tel Aviv_ hospitals and/or using _Tel Aviv_ hospitals as a base of operations, would you consider it justified for the IDF to bomb that hospital?

[matsemann]

What your government could do? Perhaps stop the occupation and killings of Palestinians. I think you would find that the innocent people being killed by your bombs don't really want to fight, they just want to live their life in peace. I can't fathom how you can justify bombing thousands of children just because some operation is carried out from somewhere in the city. I mean, what is it now, 3000 children in a matter of days being killed by Israel? But sure, killing them is probably "defending you"..

[invalidname]

I wouldn't count on anything coming from the circle of Netanyahu. He is the absolute worse. But Israeli mainstream press is generally better sourced.

Notice that Israel also used phone tracking to check that civilian population moved away from the target. No county that ran a campaign of this type in the past used such an approach to avoid civilian casualties.

I think the bombings are very problematic. But from current reports it seems the ground invasion will be worse in terms of casualties (on all fronts). So it seems like a lesser evil when a building goes down.

[kingofpandora]

> I wouldn't count on anything coming from the circle of Netanyahu.

It's not about whether I trust them or not (I don't!). It's that everyone is following the same playbook. Israel can do whatever it wants and blame Palestinians with impunity.

Every teenager shot on the street is a militant. Every house that is flattened was used by terrorists. Every journalist that was dies while working was actually killed by the Palestinians themselves.

The power imbalance is not just military in nature. Israel has command of the message as well and the is frighteningly effective because it's just plausible enough.

>Notice that Israel also used phone tracking to check that civilian population moved away from the target. No county that ran a campaign of this type in the past used such an approach to avoid civilian casualties.

What about all the people who can't charge their phones because Israel only allowed 4 hours of electricity per day before the most recent campaign? Or whose phones were lost when their homes were destroyed?

This is a great example. The IDF can make claims about how they "avoid civilian casualties" but why do you believe that it's anything more than for show?

[tzs]

>> Notice that Israel also used phone tracking to check that civilian population moved away from the target. No county that ran a campaign of this type in the past used such an approach to avoid civilian casualties.

> What about all the people who can't charge their phones because Israel only allowed 4 hours of electricity per day before the most recent campaign? Or whose phones were lost when their homes were destroyed?

If they were trying to answer the question "how many people are in this area?" it could make a big difference, but to answer the question "what fraction of people who were here have recently left this area?" sampling just people with powered on phones just be enough to figure it out, assuming Israel has decent statisticians to analyze the data.

[invalidname]

> > I wouldn't count on anything coming from the circle of Netanyahu.

> It's not about whether I trust them or not. It's that everyone is following the same playbook. Every teenager shot on the street is a militant; every house that is flattened was used by terrorists; everyone who has any criticism whatsoever is an antisemite.

I was specifically indicating that my information came from a reputable paper. Not from an a*hole on Twitter. Social media is full of nonsense and terrible people, I don't take part in that.

There is a lot of rage there and a lot of grandstanding.

> What about all the people who can't charge their phones because Israel only allowed 4 hours of electricity per day before the most recent campaign? Or whose phones were destroyed when their homes were destroyed?

This works based on numbers. There are still enough mobile phones to get a sense of movement patterns and target areas that are mostly empty. The army demoed the system to foreign press where areas are marked on a map indicating "safe to bomb" areas. It isn't a perfect system by any stretch but it's the best that can be done in this situation.

I wish there was a way to resolve this without violence. I don't think even the heads of Hamas should be killed. I hope they can be captured and would stand trial if possible. No one should die, especially not the many civilians that are there. But there's absolutely no choice. Every time the Hamas was given leeway it used it for attacks.

Israel released 1000 prisoners, many of them terrorists with blood on their hands as part of a trade a few years back. Most of those terrorists took part in the October 7th attack. They can't help themselves, they are religious fanatics. They are clever enough to manipulate the sentiments we liberals have. Our knee-jerk reaction is to stop violence and they appeal to that. They even manufacture violence against their own people for that purpose.

[hunta2097]

As an atheist, it seems like there is plenty of fanaticism on both sides.

Its impossible to "pick a side" in this conflict, there are good people and a*holes in both countries.

[dragonwriter]

> Its impossible to "pick a side" in this conflict, there are good people and a*holes in both countries.

And, on both sides, its the a*holes (a mild term for people who have engineered decades of war crimes and/or crimes against humanity, including waging war against or actively using inflammatory language to incite the murder of less extreme voices on, nominally, the same side for being less disinclined toward peace) running the war machine and state or state-like apparatus while the good people are trying not to get killed.

[invalidname]

I'm an atheist too. That is a false equivalency.

Guess which country is the 4th or 5th most secular country in the world... It might surprise you: Israel. Yep.

That's thanks to the "Jews" who are jews in creed, not religion. Israel has its fanatics for sure and they gained more power in the last election. But it isn't controlled by its fanatics by any stretch of the imagination.

[mping]

Don't have a horse in the race. Isn't Israeli constitution specifically about the Jewish people, as a ethnic, religious group? I read it discriminates against interfaith marriages, etc

[hunta2097]

I think we need a different word for "ethnically Jewish" and "belief in the faith of Judaism", the confusion between the people and the faith causes problems.

[stjohnswarts]

I believe that 99% of what they're bombing are known or very probably Hamas hot spots. They have no reason to kill regular Palestinians, but they are at war, and war is pretty fkng ugly. They have sat back for decades while Hamas lobbed rockets at them and then turn around and massacre 1400 people as if they were nothing. No I think this is pent-up and they are on a mission to end Hamas with prejudice, they are not on a mission to kill innocent people, but I have no doubt that Hamas will put innocent people between them and Israeli bombs.

[pxc]

> They have sat back for decades

7x as many Palestinians have been killed in this conflict than Israelis. And on average, in the West Bank alone, Israel kills a Palestinian every day.

Moreover, to 'sit back' as an occupied in a situation founded on mass expulsion, in which settlers actively continue illegal territorial expansion is an act of real, profound, material violence.

[matsemann]

You've got this completely wrong. It's basically the opposite.

The Hamas terrorist attacks were the pent up thing. Israel's retaliation is war crimes, terrorism and absolutely inexcusable.

Don't blame the deaths of Palestinian children on Hamas. If Israel didn't want to kill innocents, they could just not bomb them for fucks sake.

[lobocinza]

What they are supposed to do? To just do nothing and let terrorists grow stronger and do what they want?

> Israel's retaliation is war crimes, terrorism.

You're wrong but if you repeat it a thousand times maybe it will become truth. A war crime is using civilians as human shield. Terrorism is indiscriminately launching rockets at civilians areas, of which ~30% hits Gaza. Terrorism is killing civilians purposefully in barbaric ways to send a message and incite fear. Hamas and Iran are the architects of what is happening today in Gaza.

[matsemann]

I don't support Hamas. They're terrorists as well. But there is no good/bad side here. Don't use one side being bad to excuse the atrocities done by the other side. It's sickening how you and others excuse the killings of thousand of innocent children just because those bombs might also kill a few from Hamas.

All you wrote about war crimes is exactly what Isreal does as well. If you can't see that, you should think hard about what propaganda you're listening to.

But maybe it's a coping mechanism? Because acknowledging the truth about the amount of innocents being killed would be unpleasant?

[lobocinza]

You attempted to create a false symmetry while appealing to emotion. And didn't answer my questions.

> you should think hard about what propaganda you're listening to.

I listen to both. It's just that Israel at least say some truth (that can be independently verified) while Hamas only lies and play victim.

> But maybe it's a coping mechanism?

I'm far from these events. Maybe you are the one coping and avoid unpleasant facts.

[matsemann]

You're the one trying to create a false symmetry, by saying one either has to support Hamas or Israel. But no, I don't. One can condemn both. What I support is the innocent civilians and kids.

There is no way to support Israels bombings, killings thousands of innocent children, no matter how it's framed. If you do, you might as well spell it straight out instead of hiding behind weak arguments: you support the killing of children.

[kingofpandora]

It's obviously your choice to believe this despite all the evidence to the contrary.

For me it just underlines how people need a flimsy excuse so they don't have to openly support killing civilians.