[edanm]

> No one actually believes that all or even most of the buildings destroyed in this campaign was "used by Hamas" if you are being honest with yourself. It's obviously collective punishment and revenge with a little bit of show ("we dropped leaflets" or "we sent warnings by SMS") for those who need it in order to go to bed at night.

Sorry, no. I don't believe that.

Granted, I'm Israeli, and have far more trust in the Israeli public and soldiers than most people in the world. But it really is true that Hamas uses human shields. It really is true that they place bases in places like hospitals.

And it also is really true that many, hopefully most Israelis, wouldn't comply with an order to bomb a building only to kill civilians with no military value.

I understand why that might be a statement that outsiders wouldn't trust. And I'm sure there have been plenty of mistakes and even many times where people did do the wrong thing, like in every conflict in the world. I just don't think that as a matter of policy, Israel is bombing buildings with no military reason.

[kingofpandora]

So you look at the aerial and satellite photography and you really believe that every last building was justifiably destroyed as a legitimate military target?

If that's the case, then the government propaganda has done its job. There's nothing more to say.

[true_religion]

I’m not sure you can bomb things in a city and not get collateral damage. Also, the poster admitted that they get things wrong.

It’s only natural to err on the side of false positives when the alternative is allowing your enemy to live and kill your people later.

This shouldn’t be seen as any sort of approval for this war. I would prefer no war, to the natural consequences of having one.

[absrd]

What could possibly ground your faith in the Israeli government, given the intelligence failure of massive proportions we all witnessed on 10/7? How can you believe that the same government which failed to foresee a massive Hamas offensive on its own border just weeks ago, is now suddenly aware of the exact positions of underground Hamas bases deep within the Gaza strip, and is even privy to phone calls between Hamas operatives?

That's also not to mention the many times Israel has been caught lying to cover its own military actions. You only have to look as far back as the targeted killing of Shireen Abu Akleh

[matsemann]

> But it really is true that Hamas uses human shields. It really is true that they place bases in places like hospitals.

Then don't fucking bomb it. You're defending war crimes and terrorism.

[edanm]

> Then don't fucking bomb it. You're defending war crimes and terrorism.

1. It's not a war crime. If one side places their militants in a hospital, the hospital is no longer afforded protection. If anyone is commiting war crimes, it's Hamas, by placing their HQ in a hospital.

2. As much as I'd love to not bomb anybody, they are actively at this moment shooting rockets at me. What exactly should I do? Just wait until they inevitably manage to kill me?

[matsemann]

2. Who are "they" shooting rockets at you? The children you're killing? The civilians in a hospital getting treatment form previous bombings?

I stand by my statement. You're defending war crimes and terrorism. It's what it is, no matter how justified you believe it is to kill these innocent people.

[edanm]

> Who are "they" shooting rockets at you? The children you're killing? The civilians in a hospital getting treatment form previous bombings?

The Hamas militants that are using hospitals as a base of operations.

If you honestly want to discuss this, then here's my suggestion - let's set aside the factual question for a second. If it's true that Hamas is firing rockets from within hospitals and/or using hospitals as a base of operations, would you then consider it justified to attack back?

If yes, then we just have the factual matter of whether it's true or not and we can check that.

If no, then my followup question is - so what should we do? What other option is there if someone is firing rockets at you right now, if you refuse to fire back? I'm asking in all sincerity, I'm literally running to a bomb shelter multiple times a day as rockets are fired at me, is there something you think is ok for my government to do to try and defend me?

[srazzaque]

I'll preface this with the fact that I appreciate the opportunity for discourse without degenerating to our base/tribal/Neanderthal brains. And, also, a chance to converse with someone outside my own echo chambers. Most of my circle is non-Israeli, and non-Jewish.

> I'm literally running to a bomb shelter multiple times a day as rockets are fired at me

I'm sorry to hear this. This must be a terrible way to live, constantly in mortal fear of attacks from the other side. I will be the first to admit that I cannot relate to this, I've always lived in peaceful/stable environments (touch wood).

Can I pose a completely hypothetical counter-question, based on your own question with one variable changed: If it were somehow true that Hamas was firing rockets from _within Tel Aviv_ hospitals and/or using _Tel Aviv_ hospitals as a base of operations, would you consider it justified for the IDF to bomb that hospital?

[edanm]

> I'm sorry to hear this. This must be a terrible way to live, constantly in mortal fear of attacks from the other side. I will be the first to admit that I cannot relate to this, I've always lived in peaceful/stable environments (touch wood).

Thank you. I will say that there are people in much worse situations, we still feel relatively normal, except for running to bomb shelters a few times a day and except for the worry that worse is coming. But we're in the center. Many Israelis have had to evacuate their homes and probably won't be back for months.

And of course, the Palestinians in Gaza have it much worse than us, even on a good day.

> Can I pose a completely hypothetical counter-question, based on your own question with one variable changed: If it were somehow true that Hamas was firing rockets from _within Tel Aviv_ hospitals and/or using _Tel Aviv_ hospitals as a base of operations, would you consider it justified for the IDF to bomb that hospital?

An interesting question. I suggest you think about it the same way as what would happen if bank robbers took over a bank in New York, and were firing rockets at the population - would you consider bombing the bank justified? If it were the only way to prevent mass casualties outside the bank, then yes, I think it would be (and would be effectively what the police/army would do.)

But here's what makes this situation unrealistic/different: If Hamas had taken over a hospital in Tel Aviv, the hospital wouldn't continue to operate like normal. The people in the hospital would either evacuate, or would fight Hamas. If Hamas somehow managed to take over the hospital anyway, we'd be talking about a hostage situation where Hamas had a hospital-full of hostages. Then probably what would actually happen is we'd send in soldiers and/or police to try to root them out by force.

If they were somehow holed up in there, and were actively firing rockets that were killing people, then I assume there'd be some determination of whether the army/police were able to remove them quickly, before the death/damage from their rockets proves too much. If not, then for sure there'd be a discussion of whether bombing the hospital is the right choice, though it would have to be a pretty extreme situation (since ground troops probably would be able to get in, and the hostage casualties would be far too high in directly bombing it.)

The difference with the situation in Gaza is obvious IMIO. Whereas in a hospital inside Tel Aviv, Hamas is surrounded by an endless amount of Israeli ground forces that have access to it, inside Gaza that's not the case. I imagine this is actually one of the reasons for the large bombing campaign - to prepare the way for ground forces to invade, so that among other things we can surround any building with troops.

[matsemann]

What your government could do? Perhaps stop the occupation and killings of Palestinians. I think you would find that the innocent people being killed by your bombs don't really want to fight, they just want to live their life in peace. I can't fathom how you can justify bombing thousands of children just because some operation is carried out from somewhere in the city. I mean, what is it now, 3000 children in a matter of days being killed by Israel? But sure, killing them is probably "defending you"..

[lobocinza]

Perhaps Hamas could stop using their own population as human shields, vacate from hospitals, let Palestinians leave the north of Gaza and release the hostages. But they will never do that. They will keep using Palestinians as meat shield and their deaths as propaganda, diverting humanitarian aid to fund terrorism, using women as terrorist bombers, telling children to thrown rocks (which are deadly) at IDF soldiers so they as "martyrs" and sabotaging any possibility of peace because peace is an existential threat for Hamas.