[matsemann]

2. Who are "they" shooting rockets at you? The children you're killing? The civilians in a hospital getting treatment form previous bombings?

I stand by my statement. You're defending war crimes and terrorism. It's what it is, no matter how justified you believe it is to kill these innocent people.

[edanm]

> Who are "they" shooting rockets at you? The children you're killing? The civilians in a hospital getting treatment form previous bombings?

The Hamas militants that are using hospitals as a base of operations.

If you honestly want to discuss this, then here's my suggestion - let's set aside the factual question for a second. If it's true that Hamas is firing rockets from within hospitals and/or using hospitals as a base of operations, would you then consider it justified to attack back?

If yes, then we just have the factual matter of whether it's true or not and we can check that.

If no, then my followup question is - so what should we do? What other option is there if someone is firing rockets at you right now, if you refuse to fire back? I'm asking in all sincerity, I'm literally running to a bomb shelter multiple times a day as rockets are fired at me, is there something you think is ok for my government to do to try and defend me?

[srazzaque]

I'll preface this with the fact that I appreciate the opportunity for discourse without degenerating to our base/tribal/Neanderthal brains. And, also, a chance to converse with someone outside my own echo chambers. Most of my circle is non-Israeli, and non-Jewish.

> I'm literally running to a bomb shelter multiple times a day as rockets are fired at me

I'm sorry to hear this. This must be a terrible way to live, constantly in mortal fear of attacks from the other side. I will be the first to admit that I cannot relate to this, I've always lived in peaceful/stable environments (touch wood).

Can I pose a completely hypothetical counter-question, based on your own question with one variable changed: If it were somehow true that Hamas was firing rockets from _within Tel Aviv_ hospitals and/or using _Tel Aviv_ hospitals as a base of operations, would you consider it justified for the IDF to bomb that hospital?

[edanm]

> I'm sorry to hear this. This must be a terrible way to live, constantly in mortal fear of attacks from the other side. I will be the first to admit that I cannot relate to this, I've always lived in peaceful/stable environments (touch wood).

Thank you. I will say that there are people in much worse situations, we still feel relatively normal, except for running to bomb shelters a few times a day and except for the worry that worse is coming. But we're in the center. Many Israelis have had to evacuate their homes and probably won't be back for months.

And of course, the Palestinians in Gaza have it much worse than us, even on a good day.

> Can I pose a completely hypothetical counter-question, based on your own question with one variable changed: If it were somehow true that Hamas was firing rockets from _within Tel Aviv_ hospitals and/or using _Tel Aviv_ hospitals as a base of operations, would you consider it justified for the IDF to bomb that hospital?

An interesting question. I suggest you think about it the same way as what would happen if bank robbers took over a bank in New York, and were firing rockets at the population - would you consider bombing the bank justified? If it were the only way to prevent mass casualties outside the bank, then yes, I think it would be (and would be effectively what the police/army would do.)

But here's what makes this situation unrealistic/different: If Hamas had taken over a hospital in Tel Aviv, the hospital wouldn't continue to operate like normal. The people in the hospital would either evacuate, or would fight Hamas. If Hamas somehow managed to take over the hospital anyway, we'd be talking about a hostage situation where Hamas had a hospital-full of hostages. Then probably what would actually happen is we'd send in soldiers and/or police to try to root them out by force.

If they were somehow holed up in there, and were actively firing rockets that were killing people, then I assume there'd be some determination of whether the army/police were able to remove them quickly, before the death/damage from their rockets proves too much. If not, then for sure there'd be a discussion of whether bombing the hospital is the right choice, though it would have to be a pretty extreme situation (since ground troops probably would be able to get in, and the hostage casualties would be far too high in directly bombing it.)

The difference with the situation in Gaza is obvious IMIO. Whereas in a hospital inside Tel Aviv, Hamas is surrounded by an endless amount of Israeli ground forces that have access to it, inside Gaza that's not the case. I imagine this is actually one of the reasons for the large bombing campaign - to prepare the way for ground forces to invade, so that among other things we can surround any building with troops.

[srazzaque]

Interesting analysis.

I think it suffices to say that quite a bit of thought and justification would precede striking a hospital in all of these scenarios. I do hope that this level of thought and consideration is standard operating procedure in the retaliations right now. Mainly to restore some morcel of faith I have in humanity. But I, and those disconnected from internal Israeli military comms (ie most of us) can't be sure.

The political optics/rhetoric aside, the images that I see of wounded children are heartbreaking. The recounts I've read about what happened on October 7th are horrifying. If the stats are accurate, they are depressing as hell. This war has amassed almost a fifth of the total civilian death toll of the 20-year long US War in Afghanistan. In. One. Month.

Collectively I think we can agree that this needs to stop. I hope it stops. But given the track record of skirmishes and hostilities in the region, I'm losing faith.

If the statistics of civilian and children deaths are even 50% accurate, even if Israel succeeds in destroying Hamas, I fear the collateral damage and the cost of human life will just create a future generation of armed boys who all lost their parents in air strikeS in October 2023. They might just call themselves something different.

And so the cycle continues.

I know many people on both sides alike want peace. But it will take a truly superhuman person to walk across that border and say "I forgive you."

When that day comes, a person who's death would be mourned by both sides, we may have some hope.

Until such a day, stay safe. I'll go give my kids a hug now.

[matsemann]

What your government could do? Perhaps stop the occupation and killings of Palestinians. I think you would find that the innocent people being killed by your bombs don't really want to fight, they just want to live their life in peace. I can't fathom how you can justify bombing thousands of children just because some operation is carried out from somewhere in the city. I mean, what is it now, 3000 children in a matter of days being killed by Israel? But sure, killing them is probably "defending you"..

[lobocinza]

Perhaps Hamas could stop using their own population as human shields, vacate from hospitals, let Palestinians leave the north of Gaza and release the hostages. But they will never do that. They will keep using Palestinians as meat shield and their deaths as propaganda, diverting humanitarian aid to fund terrorism, using women as terrorist bombers, telling children to thrown rocks (which are deadly) at IDF soldiers so they as "martyrs" and sabotaging any possibility of peace because peace is an existential threat for Hamas.

[matsemann]

Then I resort to my original comment: Then just not fucking bomb the children. Their blood is on Israeli hands just as much as Hamas, don't try to weasel out of it.

That you're comparing children throwing rocks to using advanced military equipment to bomb them back says a lot about your values. As if doing the first in any way excuses doing the second.. A child being told to throw rocks doesn't know any better, and doesn't deserve to die for it. Holy crap some of you are out of touch with humanity.

[lobocinza]

So what do you suggest? That Israelis do nothing? It doesn't matter if it's a huge rock to the head or a laser beam as both are lethal. Unless you have a realistic suggestion of the IDF should do differently you're just being a coward, signaling virtue without having to be virtuous from the comfort of your home.

> Then just not fucking bomb the children.

Do you think the IDF is purposefully looking for children to bomb so they can look bad? Hamas use children as human shield and their deaths as propaganda.

Do you want to help Palestinian children? Condemn Hamas for using children as shield. Condemn Iran & Russia for funding Hamas. Condemn Qatar for giving asylum to Hamas leaders. Stop romanticizing "Palestinian resistance" (evil adults sending children to stupid deaths).

[matsemann]

I've condemned Hamas multiple times in these comments. But not once have I seen you condemn IDFs killing innocent children. I've actually mostly seen you defend it. Which to me is sickening. I'm not gonna reply to you anymore, as I don't want to engage with terrorist sympathizers.