[jamesaurichs]

There is 0 reason to learn mandarin if you're doing it for travel/business reasons

In Taiwan street signs do mostly have English translations. A lot of citizens speak English, especially night market vendors. You'll also have a lot of native English speakers in Taipei due to expatriation from US and Canada.

In Singapore signs officially are in English. And it's one of the four official languages, which means most people speaks English.

In Malaysia people usually speak at least 4 languages. Because it was ruled by Britain before, people speak English fairly well.

Lastly, in China, well, nobody is traveling there now. International travel is down 97% this year, even after reopening. And if you're doing business there, well, there's no point understanding the contract in Mandarin because most likely it won't be enforced, and will favor local business anyways by the courts. What's really screwy is the government has replaced most of the English translation on street signs from a literal translation to phonetic translation of the mandarin sound. So even if your read the English part of the sign you cannot understand it.

[bohadi]

>What's really screwy is the government has replaced most of the English translation on street signs from a literal translation to phonetic translation of the mandarin sound.

I don't think this is a fair take for a couple of reasons.

Mandarin is unlike other languages in that it's written form is famously ideographic. Phonetic translation is all that is done in any pair {L, M}. I assure you there is no such thing as a literal translation in any language.

Secondly, english as a global lingua franca is not a given and we in the anglosphere ought to be gracious in it's modern historical role, lest it decline (this is an exact mirror of dollar reserve privilege). Your statement reads as "be more accommodating for me". But through the prism of good manners it smacks of liberal entitlement.

>There is 0 reason to learn

hoo boy, i don't get paid enough for this... carry on

[jamesaurichs]

English IS the global lingua franca TODAY, used by most travelers to navigate through an unknown environment. if the signs in China are not translated into English TODAY, then there's no reason to go there TODAY.

[lstamour]

Honestly tho, as long as the street signs have English characters on them and I can find them and I can match them to Google Maps, I’m good. Compare with the UK where all the street signs are in English but I can never find them! (They’re often attached to buildings rather than anywhere useful…)

[yongjik]

> if the signs in China are not translated into English TODAY

Could you give me an example? I just Googled "beijing airport sign" and everything seems translated as expected, e.g., Gates, Beijing Capital Airport, International Departure, Drinking Water, etc.

I assume you don't mean you want Beijing written as "North Capital"?

[jamesaurichs]

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/beijing-replaces-english-words-sub...

The English word “station” was replaced with “Zhan,” which is the pinyin or romanised version of the Chinese character.

In some places, station names such as Olympic Park and Terminal 2 of the Beijing airport were changed to “Aolinpike Gongyuan” and “2 Hao Hangzhanlou”.

https://www.economist.com/china/2022/04/13/why-china-is-turn...

Why China is turning away from English

[hakfoo]

This seems like a better choice for the sake of "compatibility".

Given that English is not a major local language outside of Hong Kong, I'd expect there's a very high chance that an English-only speaker might need to interact with a Chinese-only speaker. It could be something like trying to relay their goal to a taxi driver or delivery person, or something as critical as trying to gain the attention of emergency services (I'd assume if you called the equivalent of 999/911 and shouted a location in the phone, even if you couldn't explain further, that would be enough to trigger a response)

Providing the English speaking audience the Pinyin gives them a chance to be understood in that situation. The translated only name is more likely to be unrecognized by the lisstener.

It doesn't seem so bizarre when you go into the Montreal metro and the signs say "Gare Bonaventure" instead of "Bonaventure Station", and that's in a country where English is nominally a supported language.

[ninjin]

I do not think that anyone is arguing that it does not make sense that we say write 東京駅 (Toukyoueki) for "Tokyo Station" in Japan and that -eki as a suffix is to be expected here. However, if you see a purging of already existing terms in a country, akin to turning Sauerkraut into Liberty Cabbage, it probably indicates that something other than an increased consideration for monolingual speakers is going on.

If what the grandparent's linked Economist article says is true: "The province of Hainan has launched a campaign to 'clean up and rectify' kindergarten names by purging a variety of words, including 'world', 'global', 'bilingual' and 'international'", it does make me feel somewhat sad, as I would hope that many of the terms they list as falling out of favour should remain positive and aspirations for us as a species regardless of the political winds in Beijing.

[trentgreene]

I don’t have a dog in this thread’s particular fight and am basically just doomscrolling on a Friday night.

But I don’t think English is a nominally supported language in Quebec. IIRC all of Canada outside of Quebec requires dual signage in english + French, but Quebec only requires French. I’d guess Gare bonaventure is an artifact of that law rather than a translation strategy.

[MissingAFew]

No reason at all?

[parineum]

I'm confused at what you think isn't a fair take. It is pretty screwy to replace existing English translation (useful to people who speak English) with phonetic transcriptions of Chinese words into Latin characters (useful to... who?). Sounds dumb to me.

> Mandarin is unlike other languages in that it's written form is famously ideographic. Phonetic translation is all that is done in any pair {L, M}. I assure you there is no such thing as a literal translation in any language.

There's no Mandarin/English translation for a "STOP" sign? I expect there is such a thing as a literal translation for most short instructions, the type of which you might see on a sign, for instance.

[lozenge]

They're talking about street names specifically, not traffic signs. What's the point in having a street name that none of the locals know because they know it by a completely different name?

Btw, based on Wikipedia, China uses symbols for traffic signs like Russia and Europe. US and Canada are the exceptions who use text and only a small few symbols.

[laserdancepony]

Btw, the STOP sign is both a shape and text.

[laserdancepony]

English is the lingua franca of planet earth today, and will be in the foreseeable future. No matter what you think.

[_tik_]

Which part of Taiwan did You visit? I visit Taiwan yearly. Only those night vendors served tourist area speak basic English. Futher away from Taipei my English less useful. Doing business with English is painfully slow. I dont speak Mandarin I usually rely on my basic Taiwanese dialect.

In Malaysia it is depend on which part of Malaysia. Not all Malaysian Chinese can speak Mandarin. Certain part speak Cantonese or other dialect.

[rtpg]

Even in places as English friendly as the Netherlands or Germany, working with locals is going to be smoother with a grasp of native tongues of the people you’re interacting with.

And if you’re actually interested in riding the ranks as a career it’s a must that you can be able to work in the language comfortable for your superiors (in some places that’ll be English, of course…)

It’s possible to not have it, but every successful outsider I’ve seen in foreign countries learn the local language even if it’s “unnecessary”

[wmidwestranger]

I recently read something suggesting that the US State Department and Foreign Intelligence Agencies are having a hard time with language training and I'm not sure anyone could hold up the argument that their capabilities have remained at the same level as during the Cold War. There are some circumstances that explain this, areas and languages of interest change more now. But I remember when Pakistan's underground nuclear test came as a surprise and even after the Global War on Whatever, I'm not sure the US ever had as much understanding as the Soviets. (Who knows about the Russians?)

Language will be a human struggle as long as humans run the world, I think you're absolutely correct on the meaningful and valuable practice of learning the language of the place you want to succeed in.

I'm only fluent in English, and I like it very much for its flexibility and expressivity, but I'm familiar with a handful of romantic languages and think every language has it's high and low points.

[SalmoShalazar]

I can’t help but think that if you’re doing business in China from abroad, it’s good to know Mandarin. Seems like a weird take to claim there’s zero value in it.

[dahdum]

It's definitely hyperbole, but the core idea that learning Chinese is rapidly becoming less useful for Westerners is fair. It'd be a fantastic idea if you live in BRICS and friends though. I expect China to essentially dominate that group for the rest of my lifetime, at the least.

[nradov]

You really think that China is going to dominate India? Come on.

[PrimeMcFly]

Definitely. China is significantly more unified and several steps ahead in most important areas.

[nradov]

China is several steps behind in demographics.

[vore]

How are you going to do any kind of business with Chinese companies without speaking Chinese? Even if you use an interpreter, clearly someone in the loop is speaking Chinese.

[jamesaurichs]

If there are any business to do in China in the next 10-20 years. Foreign investment in China is down 90% this year. Again, international travel in China is down 97% this year. Apparently everyone else except hacker news readers are aware of the shift.

[endisneigh]

Such hyperbole. If you seriously think there will be no foreign business activity in China in twenty years let’s bet real cash on that.

It is true that China like most countries at some point is experiencing a crisis at the moment.

As an aside, I think Xi needs to go. Deng Xiaoping’s strategy was better imho. The semi-planned economy approach has worked surprisingly well for now but it’s clear it’s running out of steam. China has already suffered greatly due to such a strategy before.

[idrios]

I can't cite numbers but I don't think it's hyperbole. A friend of mine recently did her Master's thesis on the effects of Covid on international business in Guangzhou. She interviewed a number of business owners and the consensus was basically that a lot of businesses that shut down because of Covid don't seem to be coming back, with most seeming worried about Taiwan.

But still, there was one business owner arguing that there's never been a better time to do business with China because it's cheaper right now, so who knows what will actually happen.

[nradov]

The CCP leadership doesn't care what you think. Xi seems fairly healthy. He could be in power for decades to come. We need to plan around the expectation of a new Cold War with China and declining foreign trade.

[lstamour]

I doubt I can train myself to do better than ChatGPT can, this late in the game. When I last needed to communicate in Chinese, which I often have to for products I’ve ordered or other mishaps, all I did was use ChatGPT and compare the result in other translation apps to make sure it approximated what I wanted to say. I also included the English version for completeness and accuracy. While it’s true I should learn other languages… right now it’s simply easier to assume computers can take on this role in the near future, at least until ChatGPT can be trusted as an education tool.

[Noumenon72]

I am stunned that only one of 99 comments here mentions ChatGPT. If computers can transform one language into another as fast as I can type, why would I try to learn to do it with my brain? It's like majoring in the abacus.

[hititncommitit]

I think it depends on your goal. If it’s to communicate, I think it’s fine to use machine translations especially in limited situations like directions or something like that. But language is also a social act, and you can’t really build the same rapport with someone using a translator as you can by speaking their language- especially in person.

But the machine translations are not (and will probably never be) perfect I’ll show you why:

Habló con su jefa y le dijo que le tiene ganas.

Google translate: He spoke to his boss and told her that he feels like it.

Well in Spanish this could mean:

(He/she/you) talked to (his/her/your) (boss/wife) and told (him/he)r that (he/she/it/you) (somewhere between wants and craves) (him/her/you/it).

This sentence mind you, isn’t especially contrived. It’s just how people talk in Spanish. And while all of these potential translations are good, only one is actually accurate. The only thing that it certainly doesn’t mean is:

He spoke to his boss and told her that he feels like it.

Which is what Google said it meant.

The problem is that what may be and can be ambiguous in one language, often needs to be explicit in another language. And when it must be explicit, the translator or whatever’s translating makes a choice and you don’t know what’s being said on your behalf. And while you can certainly improve a machines ability to guess what’s meant, you’d have to change the languages themselves to actually solve this problem.

What I find most amusing is when English speakers complain about why Spanish uses genders and say its pointless. Because Spanish uses genders for precisely the same reason English does. To add specificity and make things less ambiguous.

I realise this is a very long way to both agree with what you said and disagree.

[satisfice]

It’s easy. The Chinese companies that do business with me speak English to me.

However, after the first couple of times trying to teach in China and South Korea, I turned down further gigs, because I felt the students were not understanding me.

[jimbob45]

Do you have an explanation for China’s low tourism? Is it just latent fears of COVID?

[samcheng]

I doubt it's about COVID now. The government has really ruined China's "brand" internationally.

1. You need an onerous-to-obtain visa to visit. There is no visa exemption.

2. Banking is a total pain for a foreigner. Many places only accept Alipay or Wechat, which require a Chinese bank account. Cash doesn't work well either, because the largest denomination is tiny.

3. Many US-China flights were canceled in the pandemic and never restarted afterwards. As a result, flights to China are expensive.

4. The Western apps are commonly blocked in China, and the local apps don't have an English translation. Your smartphone is a lot less useful in China.

5. Many US employers ban their employees from bringing company equipment (laptops) into China for fear of corporate espionage.

6. Lots of reports of hostile behavior toward westerners...

The list could go on. There's a reason e.g. Japanese tourism is booming!

[zeagle]

7. I have no desire to be a political prisoner abducted to leverage a concession from the west. Same reason I would avoid Russia, North Korea, or probably areas of Mexico with cartels. See Michael Spavor, Michael Kovrig, and Brit Gringer.

[samcheng]

I doubt they would do that to an average schmuck like me, but the fact that it's a common consideration shows how far the Chinese government has fallen in the international public's perception.

It's a shame, too. China has some really great cultural sites, substantial natural beauty, cosmopolitan cities, and excellent and varied cuisine. It would be a great tourist destination under a different government.

[MissingAFew]

It's not a legitimate consideration though.

[zeagle]

I gave you two specific, recent examples of Canadians who were in China and arrested in response to Meng Whanzhou being held for extradition to the US. While she was living in a mansion they were in jail with 24 hour lighting, daily questioning for hours, and being denied to consulate officials. I'm not against China or making a political statement about their domestic policies, but I'm not oblivious to foreigners having no rights there or recourse which is certainly not the case here. As a Canadian the other frustration is this was really a US-China spat and Canada was immaterial.

[mensetmanusman]

A work colleague checked their phone when a protest happened a block away and was then interrogated on the weekend for 10 hours by state police.

This is average schmuk stuff in China.

[samcheng]

You're right; the risk of abduction is vanishingly small, even if many people are terrified of the power of the Chinese government. I'll replace "legitimate" with "common" in my comment.

[MissingAFew]

This is absolute insanity; fear mongering.

[umeshunni]

I went to China earlier this year.

1. My visa took less than a week. In SF, where the consulate is busier than usual.

2. This is actually better than the last time I was there in 2019. Alipay now supports international credit cards.

3. Very true. Direct flights are rare.

4. It's annoying that even Gmail etc are blocked. VPNs that worked pre-Covid don't work anymore. The only thing that reliably worked was my roaming T-Mobile connection (but slow...)

5. This was always the case at my previous employer. We were issued temporary Chromebooks that were wiped after we returned. This time, I was extra careful and took a burner phone and left my personal phone off till I got to HK.

[tenpies]

In Canada's case, you also had the CCP essentially kidnap two random Canadians who happened to be in China as retaliation for Canada's cooperation in exercising a US warrant against a Chinese national[1].

Good luck getting any Canadian that is not a dual citizen with China to visit, especially because CCP tyranny combined with Trudeau's incompetence cost these two people almost 3 years of their lives in Chinese detention.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Michael_Spavor_an...

[Dr_Birdbrain]

Just want to be pedantic and point out there is no such thing as a Canadian that is a dual citizen with China. China does not allow dual citizenship.

[andsoitis]

> 5. Many US employers ban their employees from bringing company equipment (laptops) into China for fear of corporate espionage.

Even Hong Kong, these days.

[edgineer]

You can receive funds to an Alipay account in yuan without having a Chinese bank account. Thus services like Swapsy exist to coordinate pairs of private transactions, where the other party sends USD through Zelle or similar.

[parineum]

Sounds less than legal.

[porknubbins]

How about China running concentration camps in Xinjiang, making China tourism morally similar to visiting Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia.

[throwaway1777]

Perfect list. Sums it up completely

[jamesaurichs]

Here are some conjectures:

1.) There is a very high dislike of China across the world.

Large majorities in most of the 19 countries surveyed have negative views of China https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/06/29/negative-views...

2.) No business need to travel there. Foreign investment is down 90% this year. Literally no US/europe presence in the trade fairs in China the summer.

3.) Flights are super expensive, because of low demand, upwards of $5k-10k. travel out of China is down hugely due to the economy, you can search on youTube for videos from Shanghai airport where the airport is devoid of travelers, and filled with empty shops.

4.) It is very hard for travelers to navigate through China. No English translations in street signs. One needs Alipay to pay for anything in China, which is complicated to setup. Ethnocentrism from rising nationalism means there could be racism/violence against travelers.

[LeifCarrotson]

I traveled to Shanghai in 2018 for business. Attitudes were mixed, but mostly impressed by the pace of development. Flights were cheap for the amount of fuel required ($1200). The (Japanese) OEM I was subcontracting for wanted to install and train the operators using the same equipment in their US final assembly plants as in the Chinese factories where the subassemblies were made. I studied the FSI Mandarin course enough to catch a few basic phrases and read a little pinyin, and I set up Alipay on arrival with a small amount of help from my host. The only shortcoming from a travel perspective was that I ran out of my (TSA-approved) travel-size deodorant and could not find Western deodorant in any of the shops.

On the one hand, it's staggering to me how rapid the pace of change against China has been. On the other hand, it was also staggering how rapidly they were modernizing and building in 2018.

[resolutebat]

Flights are super expensive because of high demand. They're limited not because people don't want to fly, but because China still hasn't fully ramped down the tit-for-tat COVID restrictions that at one point only allowed one flight per week per airline from the US to China.

[MissingAFew]

That's not even true anymore, I recently bought a ticket for 1100. They don't cost 5k to 10k.

[mensetmanusman]

My end shows $4-9k economy, $10-12k premium.

[MissingAFew]

On what time frame? I bought one for around February. Maybe if you are buying same day it's that expensive?

[mensetmanusman]

2 weeks out. That’s arguably a reasonable timeframe in the business world (at least, pre Xi-mageddon).

[tjpnz]

Why would I want to travel somewhere where the government thinks I, as a person from "the west", am the literal embodiment of satan?

On a more personal note I've had a family member recently return from living in China. Harassment from local law enforcement had a large part to play.

[MissingAFew]

I'm sorry your family experienced that but that is not the norm, to be frank.

...Literal embodiment of Satan? What? You do realize they don't follow Christianity right? Nonsense. Overblown exaggeration.

[mensetmanusman]

It’s a figure of speech. Possibly poking at the fact the CCP is scared enough to be tearing down mosques/churches all over?

[slyall]

Shortages of Flights, Geopolitical tensions, Perception that society/government is unfriendly to foreigners.

Also starting from zero since covid restrictions.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-latest-problem-people-do...

[orangepurple]

China is fully prepared to go to war today. They have these restrictions in place to reduce complications when the war is declared.

[yieldcrv]

For trade and speculation, understanding Mandarin speaking communities is a huge opportunity

Thats what I feel like anyway

Lots of English speaking opportunities too, but I wanna know what people think and how in their native language, I want access