[blitz_skull]

I disagree, it is not trivial to delineate the difference between direct death and related death. It's an important distinction. For example, the deaths in World War 2 jumps from ~53 million, up to ~80 million if we include "related" deaths (famine, etc). So, it is definitively not quibbling.

Also, I'm not sure why a million deaths makes this "some of the most important events in recent history".

If we're going by this mindset, then we have to agree that Roe v Wade is perhaps the one of the worst events in all of American history—contributing to more than 64 million American deaths (and still rising). I might highlight that's more than all of the deaths in World War 1 (~40 million), and more than all of the directly-related causes of death in World War 2 (~53 million).

IMO, COVID was _a deal_, but we've much bigger deals afoot and COVID is basically gone now.

[haldujai]

For the purposes of discussing the impact of an event we generally refer to the "excess death" metric rather than "direct" or "related deaths" which are very challenging to define and determine, as you stated.

In this context, whether the death was directly due to COVID or a consequence of health strain/policy decisions/phobia delaying care is irrelevant to the overall impact of the virus on the population.

> For example, the deaths in World War 2 jumps from ~53 million, up to ~80 million if we include "related" deaths (famine, etc). So, it is definitively not quibbling.

I don't understand what you think this "definitively" demonstrates? Non-combat fatalities is absolutely relevant and should be included when discussing the impact of WWII on the world population.

The statement that WWII killed ~80 million people is valid and accurate.

> If we're going by this mindset, then we have to agree that Roe v Wade is perhaps the one of the worst events in all of American history—contributing to more than 64 million American deaths (and still rising).

I'm assuming you're referring to 64 million abortions suggesting you believe a fetus is considered a human being. This is not the view of the scientific community, 36/50 US states and the vast majority of the international community so no we don't have to agree on that.

[blitz_skull]

> This is not the view of the scientific community, 36/50 US states and the vast majority of the international community

Unless you've got sources, I'm going to have to respectfully disbelieve that you somehow speak for the scientific community at large, 36 whole states, and the world.

Despite the morally-devoid echo chamber that many choose to live in, we've seen time and time again that social consensus doesn't mean anything when it comes to morality or truth.

I seem to recall at one point, owning human beings as slaves was both lawful and even considered morally necessary by many US states, and even the international community! Yet we can easily look back and realize that was a bitter mistake that has and will continue to affect generations to come. Not because we somehow "came to a consensus" that slavery was wrong, but because we finally acknowledged what was always true—slavery is wrong. Our consensus was just us coming to our senses.

I'll say it again, consensus means nothing when the subject is murder. The entire world agreeing does not, in any way, shape objective moral truth.

[haldujai]

> Unless you've got sources

I can't tell if you're seriously asking me for sources that the scientific community stance on abortion is that it is a basic right, fetuses are not human beings and abortion is not murder.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you've somehow not heard any scientific opinion on the matter despite how pervasive it is. Given how common knowledge this is I did not feel it necessary to provide sources.

> Unless you've got sources, I'm going to have to respectfully disbelieve that you somehow speak for the scientific community at large

Scientific position statements:

ACOG (US): Abortion is an essential component of comprehensive, evidence-based health care. https://www.acog.org/clinical-information/policy-and-positio...

SOGC (Canada): In an era where restrictions limit access to abortion in only a handful of jurisdictions globally, American women now have fewer reproductive health rights than their mothers and grandmothers did. As our neighbours south of our border face a dawning crisis in health care, the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada (SOGC) stands firmly in support of reproductive choice and equitable access to safe, high-quality abortion care for all people in Canada and around the world. https://www.jogc.com/article/S1701-2163(22)00548-5/fulltext

RANZCOG (AUS + NZ): The College strongly supports the availability of abortion being an essential aspect of safe healthcare delivery, and stands with healthcare professionals across the world in protecting patients’ access to care. https://ranzcog.edu.au/news/ranzcog-statement-on-roe-v-wade-...

Royal College of Obstetric and Gynecologists (UK): Like nearly 90% of the country, we believe in a woman’s right to choose. No woman should be forced to continue a pregnancy against her will. https://www.rcog.org.uk/about-us/campaigning-and-opinions/po...

WHO (International): Access to quality abortion care is a critical public health, equality and human rights issue. https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1476856/retrieve

Recommend the full decriminalization of abortion.

Decriminalization means removing abortion from all penal/criminal laws, not applying other criminal offences (e.g. murder, manslaughter) to abortion, and ensuring there are no criminal penalties for having, assisting with, providing information about, or providing abortion, for all relevant actors. https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/349316/9789...

FIGO (International): Access to safe abortion is a human right and a critical component of the sexual and reproductive health and rights (SRHR) of women and girls. https://www.figo.org/resources/figo-statements/addressing-ba...

> 36 whole states

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law_in_the_United_Sta...

> and the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law

> I'll say it again, consensus means nothing when the subject is murder.

Whether your moral or religious conviction leads you to believe that human life begins at conception and therefore that abortion is murder is your prerogative but this is your opinion and completely unsupported by science, evidence, or even regulation in the majority of locales on the planet.

Abortion as a basic human right endorsed by nearly every professional and scientific authority.

> The entire world agreeing does not, in any way, shape objective moral truth.

Objective moral truth as determined by who, you? I provided my sources, I welcome yours.

[blitz_skull]

> Objective moral truth as determined by who, you? I provided my sources, I welcome yours.

I appreciate the good faith interpretation of my comment. Indeed I was not aware of the (seemingly) universal consensus on this topic within the scientific community. However, as I said earlier consensus does not in any way dictate morality.

Indeed I wish objective morality was determined by me, but that is not the case. By definition, it is self-evident and requiring no proof. I'd submit that the source of moral truth would be whatever has created that which is created. Though we may disagree on that, our opinions and disagreement don't change reality. (Ironically, I think we can both agree on that point).

Whether or not morality is universal does not change simply because one denies it. So again I say, the entire world coming together to congratulate itself on its "forward progress" by murdering the unborn, does not make it a good or moral thing.

[haldujai]

I’m not trying to debate or convince you of the right to or morality of abortion. Going back to your original statement of:

> If we're going by this mindset, then we have to agree that Roe v Wade is perhaps the one of the worst events in all of American history

I strongly disagree with your original assertion that by applying the excess death metric to WWII or the pandemic we consequently have to agree on the applicability to abortion which is, as you have agreed, a morality discussion.

The question of whether abortion represents a tragic loss of human life is an entirely different discussion of morality for which I respect our differing views which need not be reconciled to resolve a debate on the most appropriate statistic to quantify the loss of human life during a pandemic or war as you stated in the original comment I replied to.

In fact, your usage of “unborn” obviates the debate. “Excess deaths” are derived from the population statistic and regardless of whether one believes a fetus has achieved moral personhood or whether abortion is murder we do not count an “unborn” person in the population or birth rate statistics prior to delivery (i.e. since inception the US has never counted a pregnant female as 2 people for census purposes) therefore abortion is not relevant to this statistical measure discussion.