[vel0city]

People seem to have forgotten the boom of prefab/modular houses in the 1960s/1970s. It turns out after the cost of delivery and final assembly on location you lose out a good chunk of the efficiency of the factory line production.

The biggest innovations to construction are probably to be had in better/faster/easier plumbing and electrical connections, making it faster and more reliable to install all the fixtures. Being able to plumb and install a whole bathroom in a couple of hours instead of most of a day while reducing the odds of needing rework would be a decent boost. We've seen some improvement in this already though with things like PEX and Wago, I imagine even more modular designs can improve this even more. The challenge with this is actually getting adoption and approval for some of this stuff.

[paiute]

Having just finished a build, this is very true. New construction methods are amazing. My home had rough in plumbing in a day. Scheduling, inspections, and credentials eat up the most time. Why a plumber can't hook up power to a water heater is beyond me. That alone ate a week.

[ptmcc]

I just redid my 15 year old original builder-grade kitchen sink and cursed the quick-construction plumbing the whole way. It was all glued together ABS plastic pipes instead of threaded pieces and single-use plastic shutoff valves with non-threaded supply hoses. I had to saw off all of it down to the wall and replace it all, this time with quality components.

So yeah, you're right, the new methods and parts make for very fast construction but the maintenance and repairability/reusability is trending toward zero.

Just like everything else these days, I guess.

[mentalpiracy]

>>> single-use plastic shutoff valves with non-threaded supply hoses

Yes, this is the standard now for an number of reasons:

* because it is far easier to cut damaged sections of PVC on site and assemble replacements than it is to cut metal piping

* PVC is wildly less expensive than the equivalent length of metal piping, because it is used in a huge number of applications

* PVC is non-reactive and does not corrode like metal

and lastly, threaded pipe connections significantly decrease the throughput of a pipeline, reducing available water pressure at the endpoint. It is basic best practice to limit where threaded connections are used so that you can maintain uniform pressure across the whole unit.

[mmmBacon]

Please don’t assume that copper and metal are the best in all situations. My home has in slab copper plumbing. The problem with this is that the copper pipes develop pinhole leaks over time. The slab itself is under tension and can’t be cut into easily. So repiping is a substantial effort. PEX is the only “cost effective” solution for this.

[nobleach]

It took us a LOT of years to realize that running bare pipes inside the concrete slab was a really bad idea. Jagged limestone leads to pinhole leaks.

Many Florida residents have their second set of pipes running through their attics.

PEX may not have the lifespan of copper, but it sure is easier to repipe.

[m463]

One interesting thing about pex is it can't be left in the sun, even when you have a roll of it ready to install. The UV in sunlight will degrade it and cause failures.

Also, have you seen the new (expensive) crimpers that let you crimp not only pex, but copper pipes?

https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCE200M2-Plumbing-Pipe-Press/d...

[nobleach]

Yes! I saw a youtube video and of course, it had me believing I needed to own this tool even though I'm not a plumber.

[afn]

FYI, you can rent the press tools reasonably cheaply if you’re not a plumber by trade. I rented one for $80 for a plumbing project a few years back and it was worth every penny. A million times easier & faster than sweating joints.

[GenerWork]

>Many Florida residents have their second set of pipes running through their attics

When/if I remodel my bathrooms I have to have this done due to my existing galvanized steel pipes being horrendously brittle and filled with 70 years of gunk. Ah, the joys of a house built in the 1950s in Florida.

[nobleach]

For me it was the waste lines giving me trouble. The drain lines for a tub in a house built in 1962. The size of the inlet meant I wasn't finding a drain at Home Depot.

[underbluewaters]

Threaded connections are just another point of failure.

[mschuster91]

> Why a plumber can't hook up power to a water heater is beyond me.

Depending on jurisdiction, they can. In Germany, you can train to be an "Elektrofachkraft für festgelegte Tätigkeiten" - i.e. an electrician trains your staff to do a specific task, like hooking up the water heater.

The problem is, plumbers already have more than enough work. They could do that technically but they don't because they want to move to the next job site as fast as they can.

[throw_pm23]

I didn't expect to see Germany as an example of lightweight regulation in constructions :)

[Lev1a]

A while ago I read that here in Germany you can also do the house wiring yourself, it's just that it has to be inspected and certified by a master electrician or you'll be really hosed if something happens since insurance won't pay etc.

[Robotbeat]

That’s true in the Us, too, from what I understand.

[imtringued]

How does this make any sense? The customer has to pay the transportation costs of the plumber and electrician. If the customer only has to pay the transportation costs once, there is more money left for the plumber.

[khuey]

Presumably the water heater is not the only electrical thing in your house so if things are scheduled correctly (which is a really big if in the construction world) the electrician is coming out the same number of times regardless.

[bluGill]

There is a specific order things need to be done. You need the fountain, then the walls, then the roof - only then can plumbers start. Because water runs downhill, the plumbers MUST be done next, as otherwise something else might be in the way of where a pipe needs to be. Once the plumbers are done, then the HVAC people come, and then after that the electricians come - it is no problem for them to put power to the water heater at this point - the water heater must already be installed. (or at least roughed in). This is how all houses are done, so there is never a problem unless all the electric is delayed.

In large buildings things are done different. Architects spend more time designing exactly where the pipes, HVAC, and wires go. Then the trades people work to spec, and they can thus work in any order so long as their parts go where they are told to. This is a lot more effort/cost though, so it isn't worth it for a small house but is critical for something large. A small house turns out to have plenty of space for everyone to design as they go, and thus this is cheaper. For a large building there are a few places where there is barely enough space for everything that must go through that spot so you better ensure upfront there is enough space.

[mschuster91]

Because most construction projects aren't "just" new plumbing... if you're operating beyond the "Yugoslavia way" aka renovating/constructing in pieces whenever you had scraped together some cash (as my grandparents did back decades ago), you want to do everything at once - first you tear out all the old stuff and then you sequentially have every trade come in to do their respective job.

[ilyt]

Right but you need the entirety of other electric stuff before the water heater, all the way from utility box.

[m463]

Isn't it always more efficient to have a team of specialists?

[wredue]

What?

This is odd given that in a lot of places, a home owner can run their whole electrical, and the inspection is just a dude plugging shit in to the receptacles.

Also, are most modern water heaters not just a standard plug in? Even my dishwasher, which was a curiously long hold out, doesn’t have direct power any more.

Around here, home owners are not allowed to plumb, not even with inspection. Plumbing permits are only given to plumbers.

[s1artibartfast]

Indeed. In California a plumber might not touch any wire for liability reasons, but home owners are legally allowed to do everything.

[kjs3]

My brand new (last year, anyway) high efficiency water heater is direct wired. The plumbers connected it. I can't say I've ever seen a plug-in water heater (bigger than a few gallons).

[1-more]

2020 house and the tankless water heater is just plugged into a 110 outlet. Kinda surprising when I saw that. Also shoutout to the builder predicting that we'd want to replace every overhead light with a fan and using the correct boxes with two hot wires from the switch to handle that. Really appreciate it.

[teachrdan]

> replace every overhead light with a fan

What does this mean? Literally replacing all the overhead lights with a ceiling fan w/light attached?

[1-more]

Yes we installed ceiling fans with lights in the bedrooms and living room. The smaller bedrooms (currently offices) have the light controlled by a switch next to the fan switch on the wall. This is because the fans we bought for rooms only use pull chains and have separate conductors for light and fan. The larger rooms have remote control fans so for now the control unit is switched from the wall and then the fan speed and light is controlled by the fan's remote. I actually hate this arrangement and am going to do some splicing of the fan's wires and expanding the switch box in the largest bedroom so I can control the light from a normal switch.

All the overhead lights outside of the kitchen and showers were cheap "boob lights." The kitchen and shower lights are LED pucks that mount flush to a shallow box and kind of look like recessed lights. First we replaced all of the boob lights with wider LED panel lights with a warm color temperature. While doing this I noticed something about the light boxes in the centers of the living room and bedrooms: the boxes were mounted so they are centered over a joist, meaning you can screw a fan directly into the joist. They also had two hot conductors running from the switch box. One was colored red and the other was colored black. The red one was wired from the switch to the light, and the black one was capped at both ends. They were set up to have fans installed without any modification to the box.

[SoftTalker]

I think you certainly could set up a water heater with something like a clothes dryer lead and plug, but I've never seen it done. I'm not sure why kitchen ranges and clothes dryers tend to be plug-in and water heaters tend to be hard-wired; in my experience they all get replaced about every 10 years or so.

[ruduhudi]

Isn‘t that mostly a question of the wattage the appliance needs? Here in Germany we have a Max of 3000W on the regular plugs which is why, for example, stoves need special plugs. Not sure about water heaters though

[gizmo686]

The limiting factor for outlets is typically the wire, not the plug. A standard NEMA 14-30 plug that is often used here in the US for high power appliances like dryers and ranges can provide 24amps continous at 240V, for a total of 5760[0] watts. Electric water heaters typically run at around 4500 watts. If you need more power, NEMA 14-50 is available as well.

More capable options exist if needed, but I have never seen them in a residential setting.

[0] The 30 indicates that it supports a peak wattage of 30.

[kuschku]

A typical German water heater, e.g. from stiebel eltron, will be between 15kW and 22kW at three phase 400V, which is obviously too much for a regular outlet. Which is why it's usually wired directly, the same as stoves/ovens tend to be.

[CydeWeys]

It's pretty common to see 240V/50A plugs/sockets in the US. That's how you'd power e.g. an electric stove, and that's 12 kW in total which is quite a bit of power.

[kjs3]

I believe this is is generally correct. There's only so much power it's safe to deliver through a plug.

[kjs3]

The water heater I just replaced lasted something more than 25 years. I don't expect this one to. But that's a different brand of "get off my lawn" than this thread is about. :-)

[rascul]

> I'm not sure why kitchen ranges and clothes dryers tend to be plug-in and water heaters tend to be hard-wired

The kitchen and laundry appliances are sometimes moved with the homeowner or tenant, but not the water heater. Also a plug can make it easier to pull out for cleaning.

[MandieD]

Kitchen ranges, clothes dryers, and literally every other appliance large or small are usually moved with the homeowner or tenant in Germany - until the last decade or so, rental apartments almost always came with completely empty kitchens, and it was on the tenant to fit in the cabinets, appliances and even the sink. Bathroom cabinets are also usually the responsibility of the tenant, but the toilets, sinks, and showers/tubs are built in.

On the upside, even a small studio apartment usually has enough space and an extra water hookup for at least a washing machine, so no dealing with other apartment residents or a public laundromat for laundry. Dryers are usually condensing; no need for an outside vent.

Until the last few years, short tenancies were unusual for Germans; in the little building we rented in before we bought our house, the other tenants had been renting there for 20-40 years! Given the terms of our contract, I gathered that they must have had very small, if any, rent increases written into their unrestricted contracts, and the only way to get them out was if the building owner decided to live in one of the units herself.

[SoftTalker]

Sometimes yes. Often they stay, especially if they are reasonably new and the buyer wants them. It's seen as a selling point that the buyer won't have to go out and buy appliances right away. Of course the hidden downside is that they are financing used appliances for 30 years so it's generally better if the buyer negotiates a lower price in lieu of appliances. But a lot of new homebuyers don't think about that.

But I'll grant that appliances are probably moved more often than water heaters are.

[egl2021]

The rules for what homeowners are allowed to do vary by jurisdiction, but the underlying principle is that if you are living in the home, you have an incentive not to mess up.

[ilyt]

> Why a plumber can't hook up power to a water heater is beyond me. That alone ate a week.

Well, cos they didn't get the license. There is nothing really stopping plumber from getting electrician's license.

[Robotbeat]

The name for this is over-licensure and yeah, there kind of is a large barrier.

[ilyt]

Pretty sure making sure dude doing electric work actually knows basic is a good thing not "over-licensure"

[Robotbeat]

Except the license is not trivial.

[ilyt]

Of course it isn't, you can burn someone's house if you do something wrong!

[madaxe_again]

Even with modern plumbing, wiring, tiling substrates, etc., bathrooms are an utter pain in the arse. You’ve got utilities going all over the place, multiple drainage points, tiling, underfloor heating, studs to position so things like shelves, heated towel rails and all the rest end up where you want them, ventilation, and on it goes - and all of it has to happen sequentially, often a bit of this, then a bit of that, and then back to the first thing again. Having done several bathrooms, top to tail, I would gladly just buy one off the shelf if it were good.

I think there’s a massive opportunity in modular bathrooms. I’ve seen them done amazingly badly (think: the plastic cube badly perched in a corner of your Victorian seaside hotel, in which you have to crouch under the shower, while it hoses down the toilet paper), I’ve seen them done so well you wouldn’t have a clue you were in a room delivered in a box. The latter, I’ve only seen in Latvia, by a Latvian company - but I think the concept has legs.

[bonestamp2]

You're right. The way that some of the new cruise ships are built is that the rooms (including the bathroom) are each one long "module" that they slide into place for final assembly. This means they can be built offsite on an assembly line, and also when it comes time to renovate, they can swap them out with much less downtime for the ship.

[Symbiote]

I've seen very cheap apartments in Britain built with these "modules", and hotels in any price range all over Europe with them.

This sort of thing: https://taplanes.co.uk/

[rtpg]

Japan has modular bathrooms, it’s pretty nice (though it does mean that almost every bathroom looks like one of 3 kinds of bathrooms). Even the basic ones are more functional than what I see in 90% of US bathrooms, but it is just huge chunks of plastic and cleaning is a whole thing.

[irrational]

How do they replace it when it is inevitably damaged or worn out?

[rtpg]

Well it’s made of mass produced parts so you can swap out panels relatively easily (though in a lot of cases this involves recalking).

This video shows a full renovation, but if you’re only replacing a broken component then you’re looking at less work https://youtu.be/8E5lH_qppWg

I think generally the point of these is that you’re a lot less affected by skill level of those installing everything, so even really shitty apartments have good infrastructure. Million dollar homes in the US have worse plumbing than stuff I had in starter apartments in Tokyo (not universal but!).

And the boxing up means that your “wet area” is limited (Japan is generally very humid so mold is a constant worry). But I’m not an expert, and everything I’m saying might be totally off base.

[artsytrashcan]

Tear the entire thing out and replace it. You have to understand that housing (separate from land) isn't so speculative in Japan, however; a "worn out" bathroom is likely in a house that's going to be torn down completely and replaced.

[rtpg]

The “houses getting torn down all the time” practice is getting less and less true. It’s becoming fairly common to just do a bunch of renovations since the old houses now are also from the modern mass production era (whereas in the past your old house was likely to be a much bigger pain in butt to improve). Though I do not believe that we have entered a full speculative era from this.

[Vt71fcAqt7]

>housing (separate from land)

Under this definition of housing US housing isn't speculative either. It's only the land that goes up in value. It's just that earthquakes and tsunamis aren't as frequent and powerful here and the zoning laws are more arcane here. (as well as some other reasons related to the speed of development of these countries). Japan is one of the least afordable places to live in the world. That is in large part the reason why the population is declining. But nobody is speculating on US bathrooms.

[aidenn0]

Also in the US, the house might be valuable because it might be illegal to build a new house of similar size on the land. My last house was 2.1x larger in square-footage than allowed under current zoning laws. If it was damaged due to natural disaster, you could rebuild with the same floor-plan, but if you willingly tore it down, you had to build a smaller house.

[artsytrashcan]

That's not necessarily true. People have borrowed against higher land values and built more expensive housing with higher-end finishes. That was the whole "flipping" craze; the contents of the house were literally worth more after renovation.

>But nobody is speculating on US bathrooms.

I've got two words for you, man: rainhead shower. (Or "in-floor heating" for the Northeast. ...I guess that's 3 words.)

[artsytrashcan]

https://fortapro.com/wc-and-bathroom-pods

These guys? (If so, then, woah, this is the first time in literally years that Google Search has successfully returned a first-result win.)

[madaxe_again]

Hah, yes. Brother in law was using them on a new development he was producing.

[notahacker]

I think the main challenge with modular bathrooms integrated into an otherwise traditional build is that you're plonking a finished unit into a rough-and ready site that has no pipes or wiring to connect to yet and people running round laying bricks and lifting in beams... which feels a little premature. You're not going to fit one through the doors of your average existing building either, and the economics of hiring a large crane just for the upstairs bathroom rather than the entire build probably make less sense

It's a bit different when the modules are part of a hotel/apartment block that's entirely built using a modular system. That's common enough in city centre hotels and motels where they're a single full-sized room and nobody can tell the difference.

[bluGill]

Hiring a crane to put the roof trusses on isn't unheard of. It costs more than a large forklift (which you have onsite to move piles of lumber around anyway), so it isn't normal, but where the terrine doesn't allow the forklift to get the trusses in place crews will hire a crane. I've also seen crews (generally of old people - almost of retirement age with the typical failing body that come from years of hard labor) hire a crane to life their walls up, such crews are still competitive with other crews so in the scheme a crane cannot the that expensive.

If it became common I'm sure crews will switch to using a crane for the roof, just because the crane will be there to lift the bathroom in place anyway. However someone needs to start making the factory bathroom first and convince builders to use it.

[jaclaz]

They (prefabricated bathrooms) are sometimes used, but they do bring a number of issues (I am talking of "real" prefabricated bathrooms, concrete, not the plastic/fiberglass ones that also exist), a few of them:

1) they are heavy, the actual structural design needs to take this weight into account

2) since they have an "own" floor you either have a step to enter them or you need to have a somewhat thicker underfloor on the rest of the house

3) since they have an "own" ceiling, the internal height will be smaller than the rest of the rooms (here in Italy this is not an issue from the techincal norms as rooms are minimum 2.70 m and bathrooms and corridors can be only 2.40)

4) since there is the need of connecting the internal utilities, electricity is the lesser problem, but typically you have two or three (cold and hot + in some cases circulating) running water pipes, two (at least) drain pipes, two or more venting pipes and the radiator (or under floor) heating, you need some additional space on the outside or some (not really pleasing to the eye) boxes on one wall or in the floor (or both)

In practice the only kind of building where they make sense are new multi-storey, multi-apartment buildings and hotels, hospitals, prisons, etc., and even then usually they are not usually much cheaper, they are only much faster and easier to put up, and definitely have an advantage for "luxury" bathrooms where local workmanship capable of a high quality work are not available or cost too much.

An example, this is an Italian builder of such "pods" with experience in international projects:

https://www.eurocomponents.eu/en/portfolio

https://www.eurocomponents.eu/en/modular-bathrooms-for-inter...

[bluGill]

If you design for it, floor trusses with a lower section that the pod can fit into can be had, solving the step objection.

I agree overall with your point though.

[jaclaz]

Yep, it is possible, but it is not something you would normally do.

Usually these pods are lifted by a crane and "inserted" in the building (talking of reinforced concrete buildings) after the structure has been built (before building the outer walls).

Once they are on the floor they are moved manually on carts/wheels attached to the pod structure, so it is much easier if everything is at the same level, the lowered level of the deck (only where the pod goes) would add another complication in the moving/placing.

With the advent of underfloor heating the thickness of the screed is increased anyway (compared to the old buildings) so the "step" is not anymore a problem as it was years ago.

[CydeWeys]

I saw a prefab fiberglass shell bathroom in a museum recently, I believe in Chicago (whatever their big art museum by Grant Park is called). It was, iirc, French and from the 60s. Pretty cool.

[xnx]

Prefabricated Bath Unit, Arc 1800, Savoie, France https://www.artic.edu/artworks/222487/prefabricated-bath-uni...

[dehrmann]

And I suppose a bathroom (or the tricky parts of a kitchen) actually can fit on a truck.

[bluGill]

It might be an oversized load, but most bathrooms can. Fancy master bathrooms would not fit though.

There is more than that though, as the floor needs to be designed for where the pipes and wires of the prefab bathroom come out. Not impossible, but not easy either. A lot of modern houses are adjusted on sight for where the pipes have to be as the architect doesn't check if a pipe and beam are designed to go in the same place.. (in large building the architect will check, but not in something small.)

[blamazon]

> PEX and Wago

I'd also add Viega to the list, it is well accepted in many places and makes copper soldering unnecessary to join copper pipes in many applications by instead using a crimped fitting that only takes a few seconds to crimp with a power tool, it's a game changer for plumbers working with copper and even carbon steel pipes up to 4 inches in diameter.

https://www.viega.us/en/homepage.html

[xnx]

SharkBite connectors don't even require a tool.

[mavhc]

I want at a minimum the wires in my walls/floors to be easy to edit, inside trunking in the wall/trapdoors in the floorboards. Why would you have to cut holes in your wall, edit the cables inside, and then plaster over them again to cause the same problem next time? Madness

[rcme]

Why would you want to look at access panels every day for a once-in-a-decade issue? Patching a hole in a wall is really easy, all things considered.

[dgacmu]

I'd be curious to see examples of very tastefully concealed / unobtrusive / or well integrated access panels.

(Asking for myself, because I agree with both of you - I hate having to open my lathe and plaster walls, but I also don't relish the idea of blatant access panels).

Maybe 8"x8" panels with electrical receptacles and data ports integrated so they're also functional...

[rcme]

You could leave lathe off of the tops and bottoms of your walls and cover those sections with baseboards and crown molding. Then you pop off the baseboards / crown molding to get access behind the wall.

[mikeyouse]

Some of the new Aria / Aria-like ones are pretty nice looking;

https://ariavent.com/products/flush-access-panel-luxe

Quick video showing it in 'action': https://www.youtube.com/shorts/nVo2pxSHCR0

[photonerd]

I’ve done a smaller version of this with painted electrical junction box covers.

Basically have a cable run behind there and one of these every so often (especially at junctions).

Usually for networking or audio/video but I’ve run power cables like that too.

[samtho]

I do some homebuilding and I encase all my wires within walls (especially telecom) in PCV conduit (not quite Chicago style of using EMT), which allows me to pull what I want through and after the walls are finished. It also lets me upgrade my 240V conductors to handle higher current situations as I always conduit dedicated runs for dedicated circuits. I do not build slab homes, only pier and beam or basement foundation, so there is always room to go under. For plumbing, I use PEX-A for water but transition to copper at a stub pipe resulting in that being the only connection in-wall, with all branching done under the floor or under the water heater connection point (which is exposed with a water filter and access panels).

[vel0city]

I sometimes really wish my house was pier and beam construction instead of slab; having a crawl space seems really handy when wanting to rework things. Everything is just right there!

A single story home does make some things simple, but it is still a pain with the insulation. On top of that, all the old plumbing goes through the slab making access difficult.

[bombolo]

Rats live in crawl spaces, and they love to eat wires.

[vel0city]

Rats seem to do fine in attics and walls as well. Pests gonna pest.

[acuozzo]

For a long time I've wanted a variant of this idea in which the exterior walls of the house are separated by a man-sized air gap from the interior walls of the house.

This make plumbing and wiring easier to repair; vermin easier to ensnare; improve safety from wildfires; and force every window to be a nice bay window with seating.

[KineticLensman]

> For a long time I've wanted a variant of this idea in which the exterior walls of the house are separated by a man-sized air gap from the interior walls of the house.

Cue an increase in the number of DIYers and toddlers needing to be rescued after they have somehow managed to fall into the gap e.g. while working / playing in the attic.

Not sure how it would work from an insulation perspective, either.

[photonerd]

Houses used to be constructed similarly. It’s actually very good, insulation wise. You have two walls you can insulate & a large air gap: pretty amazing.

But it wastes a lot of space & is expensive

[bbradley406]

High efficiency houses are actually constructed this way, although the gap is not "man-sized". It eliminates a large amount of thermal bridging.

If it's worth it to the owner, exterior walls will be framed with 2x6 instead of 2x4 to allow more space for insulation.

[erikpukinskis]

Mr. Chickadee did an addition like this: https://youtu.be/8fdm9R1Cbm0

Not sure if that’s a Japanese design, or where it came from.

[sclarisse]

If you’re running cables through the space in your walls, you will find a hole saw and a little plaster/paint is pretty cheap. Some kind of an access panel for the entire length of the wall? That’s a lot more expensive, and uglier to boot.

[mavhc]

I can buy conduit cheaply. But I'm thinking make the entire wall from plastic panels, plaster was the only solution 200 years ago, surely we can do better now

[sclarisse]

Drywall is paintable. It’s repairable. It’s durable and can take a real beating. You can put new holes in it and close them back up almost like they were never there. It’s seamless. It lasts many decades. And it’s $0.40 a square foot.

What plastic can beat that?

[acuozzo]

> People seem to have forgotten the boom of prefab/modular houses in the 1960s/1970s

Don't forget the even earlier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lustron_house

[utopcell]

And Sears homes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sears_Modern_Homes

[nemo44x]

There was still a lot of work needed to be done with those. A foundation had to be built to spec and a chimney built. Plumbing and electrical work was needed after the rough-in and then of course all the finishing work. What you were buying was a design and the materials.

Saying that, in the early 20th century there wasn't too much to the electrical and the house probably had basic plumbing for a single bathroom and a kitchen sink plus radiators and a boiler that was probably onsite oil fed. A modern home has far more to consider including insulation, far more electrical and plumbing, HVAC, etc.

[voisin]

> The biggest innovations to construction are probably to be had in better/faster/easier plumbing and electrical connections, making it faster and more reliable to install all the fixtures

I think maybe 90% of the benefit could be had by simply having good, efficient design in the first place with the same traditional connections. It is unbelievable how much quicker it is to build when all the plumbing is stacked within a small footprint, rather than running all over the place.

[ilyt]

If you try to save on workforce cost by.... making materials more expensive, that only works if materials are not the big part of the cost. But they are for housing, usually by far the biggest cost.

If it is just "mold plastic differently so it can be put together quickly" and doesn't add much cost, it is worth it, but if you prefab walls cost more than raw materials + labour to build something similar... and on top of that are less elastic (just certain width and height etc.).

[hahamrfunnyguy]

I do a lot of my own plumbing but I had a larger job I didn't want to do. I had assumed the plumber was going to use copper and sweat connections. He basically told me that copper was way up and the labor costs of the sweat connections would make it more expensive. I had him go with PEX and sharkbite connectors.

In retrospect, doing the job myself that way wouldn't have been too bad. The sharkbite connectors seem pretty reliable. I used some when I first bought this place and they've been installed for about 20 years now. I still prefer the traditional sweat joints, but maybe it's just not worth the investment of time?

[kokanee]

I had a similar situation, but I had him go with PEX and sweat connections. I suppose I would have considered it for a connection in my garage, but this was deep in my crawl space in an area where you only visit if you absolutely have to. Not a place to mess around with products that have half the life expectancy of the tried-and-true methods.

I wonder if any builders are using this approach - solder in the crawl space and behind drywall, but shark bite in accessible areas.

[jacquesm]

Wago is a mixed blessing.

[jjoonathan]

Wago is better than sliced bread, the only people upset with them are just butthurt that their knowledge of how to use a wire nut is no longer a competitive moat.

[jacquesm]

What a silly response. No, Wago has in some cases higher contact resistance than other means of splicing hard copper wire. And in those cases it can lead to an increase in temperature, arcing and possibly fire.

It is much more convenient and I highly doubt anybody that can splice a couple of wires sees that ability as a means to keep the competition out. But there are drawbacks and you should be aware of them. When doing high current and tri-phase connections I will use a wire nut, otherwise I use a Wago.

[gjsman-1000]

> And in those cases it can lead to an increase in temperature, arcing and possibly fire.

Prove that. There is no evidence for that if they are used within spec - and if there was, UL and CSA would immediately pull their listings. There is however, plenty of FUD on the internet about Wagos being dangerous, even though plenty of tests have shown this is not true. For example, this test which showed a five-connector Wago running at maximum of rated limit releases about 1W of heat. A little warm, nothing dangerous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgjo36-jaFY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhFwcEcNF2I

Also, you should look into how common electrical fires are in Germany if you really want to prove your case. Wago popularity over there is insane. Wire nuts are viewed as archaic and most homeowners don't even know they exist.

[jacquesm]

Wago's fail all the time, as do wire nuts. Both need to be applied properly. Applying a Wago properly is easier than applying a wire nut properly.

But Wago's really do have higher contact resistance (especially when they age), can have higher temps and I've personally seen more than one case of a molten Wago, including one where the whole metal part had molten its way out of the container, as well as one where the tabs had gone missing and were all locked in the 'open' position (no idea how that came to be).

I do a lot of house renovations, have installed a whole pile of solar gear (including some pretty heavy duty inverters), and have installed a complete machine shop. You're more than welcome to question all of that but I'm not in your pay and I don't need to prove anything, my personal experience is good enough for a forum comment. I use both, for where I think they are most appropriate and that's how I treat all tech: apply it for its strengths and be aware of the weaknesses.

[btbuilder]

Could you elaborate? All connectors regardless of type have current rating and specify what wire gauges they are compatible with. It seems like it would be a big deal if a properly installed Wago could catch fire.

I know that wire nuts can sometimes have a better failure rate when tested at much higher currents than either connector is rated for but this is equivalent of ingredients causing disease when you consume 1000 times more than is typical.

[mindslight]

Code and device approval are basically minimum standards. For example it's common wisdom to avoid "backstab" connections on receptacles, yet (at least one) NRTL keeps their approval, and they keep selling them. Go image search for "receptacle backstab" and see all the melted ones.

Or look at how romex/NM (doesn't) hold up to mild rodent activity.

I'm not saying that Wagos are in the same category as receptacle backstabs. The point is there are definitely quality/safety reasons to choose one approved method over another.

[organsnyder]

> Or look at how romex/NM (doesn't) hold up to mild rodent activity.

We had a mouse chew the romex going to the receptacle for our dishwasher (as well as the drain line). He must’ve gotten quite the shock, since the breaker tripped. The wire was charred and had exposed copper.

[jacquesm]

Wago use a spring loaded contact to touch the wire and there are at least two of these in series for every connection. This works quite well for currents up to about 20 A, and if the Wago is applied properly: straight wire, right thickness and proper length stripped. Obviously if you mess any of those up all bets are off. But assuming proper installation that 20A is still a potential issue: lots of gear has a multiple of that for a short time when starting up. That's when contact resistance starts to become important, and as connections age mechanical resilience comes into play and what was borderline before may become a problem. Contact resistance is ideally constant but as connections age they are pretty much a factor of how much copper is in contact with each other and this is where wire nuts do a better job. So a brand new Wago splice and a wire nut splice will probably have approximately the same contact resistance, but several years down the line it may well be quite different.

Motors and other large inductive loads are especially nasty in this respect, which is why there are several 'curves' in use for ground fault interruptors. The most common, the B curve will do a max or 3 to 5x for a short period of time before it kicks in, but a C or D curve can go much, much higher. And then that contact resistance (which wasn't such a huge problem so far) suddenly is a problem. Now you're generating serious Wattage in a small space that has no good way to get rid of the heat. Imagine an elevator motor or a shop lift or or something like that. This sort of application is where I would never use a Wago. But for regular low power stuff in my house I use them all the time, lights, bedroom outlets and so on. But my 17 KW Solar inverter is using crimped on joints and I checked the torque on the screws in the plug to make sure it's all up to spec. Those are not things to mess around with and hope it will hold.

If you want to have some fun take a FLIR across an older exposed installation, it will definitely help to visualize what contact resistance will do.

[jjoonathan]

Wire nuts are easy to fuck up.

Wagos are hard to fuck up.

That's why wire nuts cause fires and wagos don't. If I had a dollar for every wire nut I've ever fished out of the bottom of an electrical box, I'd be able to buy a nice dinner for the whole family, whereas I'd leave the dollar store empty handed if someone had forced those numptys to use wagos.

[jacquesm]

> Wire nuts are easy to fuck up.

> Wagos are hard to fuck up.

This we readily agree on, but I've seen both being fucked up enough to go over the electrical system with a FLIR for any new property purchase. The stuff you find like that you won't believe, including dead rodents, completely burned out junction boxes, arcing so strong that you could smell the ozone meters away from the junction box (essentially a matter of time), wire stripped bare over ridiculously long distances and so on. Other code violations such as using only black 1.5 mm^2 for a whole installation and non in-ground approved cable buried a couple of inches under a driveway.

My advice is to use both, each for their strengths. If you're wiring up an electric motor of any sizeable power I'd definitely do that using the best connection possible, so a crimped on screw terminal if that's a possibility, a wire nut if it isn't and a Wago if there isn't anything else. But I'd check the drop across the Wago before calling it a day, just in case. Start-up currents are pretty nasty. Also: anything behind a type C or D breaker.

[bbradley406]

> Wire nuts are easy to fuck up

Can't agree on this at all. You twist the wires together in the direction the nut threads on, then screw it on. After it's done give each leg a light pull to make sure it's secure.

Where and how are people fucking this up? I could see using the wrong size, leaving stripped wire outside the nut or stuffing way too many wires into one nut, but other than that I'm baffled.

[aidenn0]

Just because you seem to have a lot of experience, any thoughts on the old-style grey Wago vs the new-style clear ones?

[jacquesm]

New ones for sure. Those stab-ins come loose much easier and are harder to get right. There are some stab-ins that are transparent, those at least allow you to inspect that the wire is seated properly. But be careful when you manipulate them to close a junction box because any twisting of the wire can cause them to slip loose.

[aidenn0]

Oh, I meant the gray 222s vs the clear 221s. The whole "I can see it right" thing is nice with the 221s, but I've had people tell me that the 221s don't hold as well as the 222s.

[irrational]

In what way? I recently switched to using Wago and they are so much better than wire nuts that I can’t see any downsides (other than cost).

[rootusrootus]

I could believe that wire nuts for regular size wires (say, 12 awg) have a pretty good reliability record -- only after they've been twisted together by an experienced electrician and then capped, there is great wire contact and physical strength. I've occasionally had a wire slip from a Wago when I do a test pull.

But I'm with you, I'm happy with Wago. When I'm doing the work myself, that's what I use. Though I do use wire nuts for my big wire connections (6 awg). They probably don't even have lever nuts for that size, but I didn't look.

[jacquesm]

At least you do a test pull. You're ahead of 99% right there! Good for you.

[aidenn0]

Unless you're using stranded wire. It's definitely possible to use a wire-nut correctly with stranded wire, but it's much, much harder. Also (in the US at least) stranded is almost always lighting so the slightly increased contact-resistance is a non-issue.

[jacquesm]

That's true, for stranded wire wire nuts are less than ideal because the thread tends to severe the strands if you're not super careful. If you do use them always twine the threads and if you can use a crimp on sleeve of the right diameter.