[Kareem71]

As a Canadian who moved to the US for tech, I strongly advocate for any young Canadian with capable means who is reading this to leave Canada.

An already broken system is being stacked against you

Housing prices are more expensive in Canada. Health care systems are crumbling within Canada. Wages are lower in Canada. General cost of living is more expensive in Canada

I was frankly shocked after a lifetime of watching CBC just how much my quality of life improved by moving to the USA.

[laurencerowe]

The US is by far the most favourable place to be a highly paid professional but I do worry about whether it is the best place to raise a family.

The level of violence here is just so much higher than other countries. Even living in San Francisco where the murder rate is half that of the US it is still double that of Europe and Canada. There was a gun battle at our local play park a couple of weeks back.

The house price / wage ratio in Canada is shockingly bad though.

[bequanna]

> The level of violence here is just so much higher than other countries. Even living in San Francisco where the murder rate is half that of the US it is still double that of Europe and Canada.

The Bay Area is not representative of the rest of the US. Crime is out of control in SF proper and the Bay Area more generally due to reduced enforcement.

[laurencerowe]

The Bay Area is definitely not representative of the US as it is far safer overall. According to CDC Wonder for 2021 deaths from assault per 100k population were:

San Francisco County 4.9

California 6.3

USA 7.8

Santa Clara County is safer at 2.7 though I would really miss living in a walkable neighbourhood.

[bequanna]

> The Bay Area is definitely not representative of the US as it is far safer overall.

Cherry picking stats doesn’t make it true.

SF-proper is one of the worst urban areas in the US. Maybe only topped by Philly.

[121789]

That’s a bizarre statement. SF has ugly areas but still feels very safe. Would feel much more comfortable being dropped off in the worst places there vs Chicago, St Louis, LA, Miami, New Orleans, Atlanta and a bunch of other places

[selimthegrim]

I live in New Orleans and I have to say I feel safer there than San Francisco

[bequanna]

How about Oakland at 2AM?

[laurencerowe]

I'm really not trying to cherry pick stats, death by assault / homicide is a pretty good indicator of levels of violent crime. SF-proper (i.e. San Francisco County) has a huge and highly visible homelessness problem and is definitely an outlier on that dimension. But while that is unpleasant it is less worrying than actual violence.

The US limits gun control so even in states like California that try to do something about it there are many more deaths than in countries which actually do something about it.

[shepherdjerred]

Couldn't you just move outside of the city where is it significantly more safe? There are plenty of options between living in San Francisco and moving to Europe. I live in Seattle, and while there are _plenty_ of problems, I don't think it would be a bad place to have a family.

[laurencerowe]

At least according to CDC Wonder, King County has about the same rate of death from assault at 4.8/100k vs 4.9/100k for San Francisco County.

Edit to add: It's not just the absolute levels that I worry about but the effect that ever present gun violence has on society with kids being subjected to frightening active shooter drills in schools that just aren't necessary in other developed countries.

[shepherdjerred]

I don't know. Obviously school shootings are bad. Bad things will always happen as long as humans exist, and these bad things have some impact on children. We'll always want to reduce the amount of harm our children are exposed to.

But, isn't being a child in the United States significantly better than being a child _anywhere else_ 100 years ago? Even with the psychological harm caused by school shootings, hasn't there been a net improvement? I would much rather be a child worrying about a school shooter (with, in reality, a minuscule chance of it physically effecting me) versus being a child during the great depression, either of the world wars, or the cold war.

It's a very logical argument and coming from someone nowhere close to starting a family though; I am sure that most parents might agree but would continue to want their kids to be safer.

I'm not trying to say that none of this matters... I guess what I'm trying to say is that, those kids ended up alright in far worse circumstances, so kids today will be alright too.

[Cyclical]

I had the exact opposite experience moving from Canada to San Francisco. While wages are much higher, the cost of living is not even comparable - anecdotally much, much higher in SF than either Toronto or Vancouver (both of which I have lived in). Healthcare has been a horrible experience here too, with Kaiser putting my through endless levels of bureaucracy in an effort to avoid paying for my medication.

[cmrdporcupine]

But when did you leave Toronto? Because the situation is getting exponentially out of control. The housing market in southern Ontario & lower mainland BC is a pyramid scheme. When my wife & I first bought our house in Toronto in 2005 in a "bad" neighbourhood (Oakwood-Vaughan) it was a bit of a squeeze on our dual tech-worker salary, but we were able to do it. Fast forward almost 20 years, we would not be able to afford what that house goes for unless we financed to like, a 35 year mortgage, and my compensation has gone way up from back then.

Meanwhile COVID f'd up the health care system extremely badly and there's no real commitment from the province to getting the funding situation under control.

[thfuran]

>a 35 year mortgage

Is that much longer than normal in Canada? 30 year is the standard in US.

[Tsarbomb]

No it's not normal, they are talking a bit out of their ass. Based on their dates, I'm significantly younger than them and yet I was able to afford a house in one of the more desirable neighbourhoods with only me being the one working in tech.

I'm not targeting the person you are replying to with any malice, but since almost all of the major financial and business institutions in Canada are headquartered here there is an overabundance of people that would claim they work in "tech" when in reality they are making a respectable but decidedly non-tech salaries at places like TD Bank or Thompson Reuters as examples.

The range of possible salaries for devs in Toronto is quite large.

Also as an additional anecdote, every single one of my classmates who went to the USA and decided they would like to start a family, came back to Canada to start that family.

That is not to say it is all rosy here. There is an overabundance of poor or terrible talent that's been shipped in to cover the exodus of Canadian educated people chasing better salaries in the USA while business leaders and purse string holders are content to celebrate their mediocrity while being confused why productivity is so low.

[cmrdporcupine]

Wow, you're classy... and yeah, I feel targeted a bit ... hah

Our old house @ Oakwood & Vaughan was bought for $285,000 in 2005. It's likely "worth" north of $1M now, not 20 years later. My senior software engineer salary in that period was between $75 and $100k CAD. Are you saying that a SWE salary in Toronto is over $300k now?

I know it isn't, though there are plenty making more than that Google Canada, that is a huge anomaly from the rest of the market.

The distortion in housing prices and the continued upward growth has a negative effect on the ability of young people to prosper. It might help me retire, sure, but it isn't going to do much good for my kids.

BTW, I worked as a SWE at Google for 10 years. And my wife was at Apple before that. Does that count as "tech?" Just checking.

[thfuran]

I work as a software engineer at a company whose only products are software. Are you saying I shouldn't claim to work in tech because I don't make FAANG money?

[ppeetteerr]

Similar experience but my reason for staying in the US is purely for the weather and the money. Life in Canada is so much more pleasant than any city I've lived in in the US.

[refurb]

I had a similar experience.

Instead of moving hours away to Toronto or Vancouver (if you don't live there), just move the same distance south and you can find cheaper housing, higher wages, more job opportunity, lower taxes and lower cost of living in general.

It's like a secret power up to your life.

[polishdude20]

What is the process of moving to the USA as a Canadian?

[ppeetteerr]

Find a job that qualifies you for a TN/H-1B visa or become a founder and get on an O-1 visa.