[kieckerjan]

I love hotel bars, and not just for the quiet. It is the "liminality" that the author mentions, not just in space and time but also in the social dimension: a place that is neither private nor public, but a bit of both. Places where you can be friends (or at least get drunk) with a total stranger for one evening.

When I am in a big city, alone or with company, I try to hit the bar of my hotel at that specific lull between daytime obligations and the night on the town. I order a Martini to test the proficiency of the bartender and make some smalltalk or eavesdrop on the conversations while I wait for the evening to arrive. There is comfort in these vacant but well-delineated stretches of time, and hotelbars are perfect for that.

[constantly]

A martini only has two ingredients. If you’re trying to test a bartender you might consider doing something like a frozen pina colada or a gin fizz.

[mauvehaus]

Yes, but like the best simple recipes, the skill lies in picking the right two and using them in the right proportion.

Gins and vermouths both vary a lot in flavor, and a martini is a drink that's all about the subtleties of how they interact. If you get an olive or three in your martini, there's also the element of the olive brine. That could be an incidental amount from the surface of the olives, or an amount added beyond that, at which point the drink is properly called a dirty martini.

A martini is the perfect test of a bartender's skill, just as a plain cheese pizza is the perfect test of a pizza maker's skill.

[constantly]

Agree with cheese pizza, and will add plain cheeseburger. But with a martini one normally specifies the ingredients (or at least the base) as the orderer, otherwise it’s just well alcohol. So I would normally say something like “vodka martini” and they would give me whatever is on well with whatever the vermouth is, and I guess olive juice if I specified. Otherwise I’d order a “X Brand vodka/gin martini” and they’d do the same but with the specified brand. So this isn’t really helpful to determine anything about the bartender. Unless you’re telling them to surprise you, but then you’re likely just testing if their preferences match yours.

Furthermore, the recipe specifies the proportions. Whatever ounces or whatever ingredient. I would argue that them deciding the proportions outside of the recipe is bad.

I think your romanticizing martinis too much and reading too much into them. Martinis are good btw, just saying they’re the most basic drink.

[7znwjshsus]

You can only do so much if your ingredients and oven is bad. I don't think you can judge the cook in those cases, only the restaurant as a whole.

[wrycoder]

If the ingredients and the oven are bad, a good cook fixes that or leaves immediately.

[bee_rider]

Not everyone has the luxury to die on the hill of quality, and we’re not talking about safety-critical changes to the drinks.

[CyanBird]

Well then said cook/bartender will be judged by that

[ballenf]

Vanilla ice cream. Can't hide behind overpowering flavor distractions.

[genghisjahn]

Your last line reminds me of this scene regarding a cheese burger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bjDrg5q7ZY&ab_channel=Movie...

[kieckerjan]

Cheers, mate.

[PheonixPharts]

A classic martini has three ingredients, though I find novice cocktail makers often forget the most important: gin, vermouth and ice water. If you've ever made them in bulk you immediately realize that you need to add ~20% ice water before putting the batch into the freezer (since it isn't added in the process of mixing).

The martini may be simple, but it is not easy to make an excellent one. It's a very solid test of a bartender's skill because, unlike many drinks, ingredients alone cannot carry the cocktail. A piña colada for example, is mostly about ingredients (are you using a good coconut cream? fresh pineapple?) For the martini the chilling and dilution need to be just right. This tests the bartender's most important skill: mixing. Proper mixing of the beverage is ultimately what makes a martini.

In addition, I've had a shocking number of awful martinis served to me.

[constantly]

I am very open to being wrong about the ingredients in a martini, so I checked. I can’t find any reference to any ingredient other than the two mentioned, plus maybe a garnish if desired. Ice water is never listed, so it sounds like you’re having nonstandard martinis, which is totally fine but a little unfair to the bartender if it’s some test. I was thinking that some water does make it into the martini as an artifact of the catalyst (ice) used to make it cold, but then you seem to reference actively diluting it with straight iced water. I think we’re probably just referencing different drinks, I am specifically referencing a “classic martini” from the original post.

I get the sense that this is just a hyper specific hobby of yours, so won’t begrudge you being exacting to the standards you’ve created. Just like some people really, really get off on leather shoes or suits or whatever, hobbies are fun.

[dlgeek]

The ice water is implicit. It comes from shaking or stirring it over ice to chill everything prior to serving. Dilution from this process is important for the balance of most cocktails.

[jpalawaga]

The cold water making it into the drink as a part of dilution is the whole point of using ice and not just chilling the ingredients. ice serves two purposes: to dilute the cocktail (as water) and to chill the drink. both are essential.

if i show up to a bar and you pour me measures of vodka and vermouth in a glass without properly diluting it, i'll send it back and have a beer instead.

martinis are shockingly easy to fuck up. and this conversation is exactly the reason why the martini is a good test of a bartender's capability. being a bartender is more than putting fixed quantities of ingredients in a glass. how do you know when your martini is properly diluted, either by shaking or stirring? a good bartender will know. a bad bartender will not. a terrible bartender won't even realize dilution is crucial.

[ericbarrett]

Once made friends with a local bartender. Hung out at the place a few times chatting and drinking beer. One night I was feeling liberated so I ordered a gin martini. She must have shaken it for 30 or 40 seconds! It was basically flavored ice water, couldn't finish it.

[chrisdhoover]

The drink is diluted a bit by the ice in the mixing glass. It does not show up in the recipe but is an essential element. In the book, How’s Your Drink? The author admonishes the reader not to serve knock out drinks that are not sufficiently left in ice long enough for some dilution to occur.

[jb1991]

Coffee also only has two ingredients, beans and water. Maybe a third if you got milk. That’s it, so it’s very easy to make good coffee every time.

[vanilla_nut]

Steak has only one ingredient, meat. That's why I make it so often, it's impossible to mess it up.

[switch007]

For me, steak without butter, salt, pepper, garlic and thyme is a sad time.

[bookofjoe]

Substitute ghee for butter and you've got one foot in heaven.

[wpm]

I love ghee, it’s like freebasing butter.

[switch007]

I totally forgot about ghee despite having a tub in the fridge, and using it last time I cooked a steak lol. Good shout. It adds a nice nutty flavour if I recall

But butter is only for finishing, to bring out the garlic and thyme flavours. I cook it with a bit of oil if I finish with butter

[vanilla_nut]

Nothing wrong with those. But if you buy great meat you can grill a steak with absolutely nothing on it and it comes out fantastic.

[throw9away6]

Steak without salt is gross so it needs 2 at least

[WastingMyTime89]

Coffee is mostly ingredient however. Good luck doing a good coffee with poorly roasted or stale beans while fresh beans will give you a proper cup using a press even if you do it extremely poorly (in so much as you can even mess up a press).

[Etheryte]

I think you strongly overestimate the competence of the average barkeep, many are there for the seasonal job or just to fill a gap between jobs. Not that there's anything wrong with either one of those, but it's good to know beforehand so you don't have a drink absolutely butchered. I can't even begin to count the times I've been served a "skinny bitch" that's just vodka and soda water.

[nl]

As an example of this I once ordered a margarita in a casino bar and the bartender looked up the recipe in a book.

[xattt]

It goes to show how much adult life is and will always be a middle school dance.

[roflc0ptic]

I like the humility

[anthomtb]

That seems better than dumping a yellow mixture of unknown origin over some well tequila.

[bee_rider]

How was it?

[nl]

Terrible :(

[bee_rider]

Ah, too bad, it would have been a funny reversal of expectations.

[newaccount74]

> A martini only has two ingredients

I think that's the point :)

Just like you'd test an Italian chef by ordering pasta al pomodoro.

[FartyMcFarter]

Or just like you can test a software engineer by discussing basic data structures and how they behave both in theory and in practice.

[galbar]

I've had so many people tell me that it is unreasonable to ask in an interview "What's the difference between an array and a set?"... Then I ask how they'd feel about reviewing PRs from a person that does not know the difference and they mostly of change their minds about it.

[_ea1k]

To be fair, it does depend on the question. Yours is fine.

I've also seen things like "Why would you specify the # of elements when initializing an ArrayList in Java?", and you just know the person asking is the guy that sprinkles magic constants all over his code. And gives negative reviews when you don't put random (often relatively small) numbers in yours too.

[hnfong]

Instead of hardcoding, you can specify a million configuration variables to be determined at runtime, and shift the responsibility to SRE to draft a deployment plan for that :P

[Karellen]

Or fizzbuzz

[franga2000]

Or test a bartender by ordering a fizzbuzz and see if they're a former software engineer who got fed up with the crunch and left to go work in a bar (something I think all of us have considered at least once).

[copperx]

It's been a long time since I heard a jwz reference.

[smcameron]

I think I'm going to start calling a gin and tonic a "fizzbuzz".

[pavlov]

Maybe more appropriate for the vodka soda which is literally nothing but fizz and buzz.

[wrycoder]

buzzfizz, I think.

[maxk42]

You can learn a lot about an engineer by asking them to implement a linked list.

[dreamcompiler]

I had a relative who owned a restaurant. One of his tests when interviewing a new chef was "Make me an egg."

[twic]

A French omelette is a classic interview test for restaurant cooks, as touched on here:

https://www.seriouseats.com/classic-french-omelette-recipe

[Lio]

> "Make me an egg."

I'd be reaching for the polystyrene, spray paint and duck tape. Possibly, a 3D printer to show my technique is up to date.

I suspect I'm far too literal minded for this kind of test but then I'm an engineer.

The man wants to be an egg. The customer gets what he wants.

[0xffff2]

It's just domain-specific language. This would be clearly understood as "prepare me an egg" by anyone receiving the question in context.

[pavlov]

If this were a software engineering interview question, it would be five paragraphs long and start with:

"Assume a female Gallus gallus domesticus lays a capsule containing an unfertilized ovum..."

[gedy]

Ha yeah and if the 20 year chef asks "what?", then push away from the table with a shocked look: "um how long have you been cooking again?"

[pavlov]

"How can you pretend to make a steak when you don't know the first thing about protein folding??"

[martinflack]

And the candidate would respond with a Dockerfile that says "FROM egg".

[Karellen]

What sort of response were they looking for with that? "How would you like it - boiled, poached, fried, scrambled or turned into an omelette? Or a meringue maybe?"

[OJFord]

GP said a restaurant, not a road-side 'caf'/'diner'. They'd be looking to be given something good, whatever the candidate wants/comes up with/thinks they can do well. e.g. a bad candidate returns literally just a fried egg on a plate, a good candidate returns a devilled egg neatly presented, say.

[akvadrako]

So it's just guessing what the interviewer wants?

As a restaurant customer, I would prefer a fried egg over a deviled one.

[dreamcompiler]

Exactly. If the chef said "What kind of egg would you like?" the chef didn't get the job.

[whywhywhywhy]

Think if you’re good at cooking the answers become obvious. If you’re excellent at cooking even more so.

[mensetmanusman]

Throw the entire egg in a blendtek blender on high for 10 minutes until it is a frothy soup with no indication of the egg shell.

Microwave for 3 minutes.

Add chocolate.

[copperx]

You're hired. Welcome to Chili's.

[selectodude]

Rumor has it that every fold on the top of a chefs toque signifies one of the ways to cook an egg.

[bookofjoe]

>In 1903, Auguste Escoffier wrote the essential book for French cooking, Guide Culinaire, and outlined 143 ways to cook eggs.

https://www.thepaseoclub.com/blog/the-magic-of-eggs

https://archive.org/details/cu31924000610117

[ericbarrett]

An egg perfectly over-easy is quick and super impressive. I've never been able to do it at home without breaking the yolk.

[0cf8612b2e1e]

That’s table stakes for a cook. While it has been years since I was a line cook, even I can still consistently make over easy without issue.

[listenallyall]

off-topic, but since we're talking about chefs, please take a second to remember Frederic Forrest, who died yesterday. Among numerous roles, he played 'Chef' in Apocalypse Now, an amazing, iconic, memorable performance. "Never get out of the boat."

[tapland]

That's supposedly common, but as a non-chef I have no idea what the expected outcome is :D

[duckmysick]

Eggs are versatile and require special handling, so egg dishes are good for showing both creativity and technique. There's a lot to pay attention to: cracking eggs, picking cooking vessels and utensils, seasoning, plating, texture, how fast you move, etc.

Efficiently making an egg dish that can be served to customers would be a pass. The standards depend on the restaurant and the chef that does the interview.

[hnfong]

Eggs are also extremely easy to overcook (I'm far from a professional, I think around ~70C/160F, and the temperature tolerance band is quite small), so there's a lot of techniques in controlling the temperature.

[I_complete_me]

My imagined reply - as I am not a chef: "What do you think I am? A hen? If you want an egg dish, ask for it. An extra word won't hurt you. I can't work with tight people, I'm outta here."

[inerte]

Tangential, but most bartenders would say a Daiquiri is how you test another bartender. I think I first read that in "Regarding Cocktails" but a quick search does bring interesting confirmation https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bartender%20test%20dai...

[0xffff2]

The daiquiri is an interesting one because it will weed out easily 90% of bartenders without even receiving a drink. The number of times I have been told "sorry, we don't have a blender" is a source of great amusement to me.

[zeekaran]

I recently ordered a daiquiri from someone who didn't know how to make one. I received a delicious drink served in a coupe, but the weird thing was that it had a large spherical ice cube in it as well.

[mikrl]

It would take a true maestro to make a damn good martini but even the basic AF store bought pina colada mix tastes good.

Getting into tiki cocktails, I’ve never had a bad one because it is literally impossible to mess up fruit juices and large quantities of rum and other spirits.

[chipotle_coyote]

I don’t know — I suppose I’d agree that even a “bad” rum-and-fruit-juice cocktail is almost always still drinkable. But there’s a wide difference between a Mai Tai or a Zombie made at a tiki bar following the classic recipes and one made at an Applebee’s. :)

[twic]

My standard test cocktails are a Vieux Carré, and a Sidecar, but i ask for it to be less sour than usual. The former is moderately complicated, and tastes wrong if it's not bang on. The latter is simple, but tests their ability to deviate from a script.

(also, standard-ratio Sidecars are an abomination)

[Steve44]

I normally do a 3:2:1[1] for a sidecar and get good feedback on it.

[1] my recipe is 2 x VSOP Brandy + 1 x Cointreau + 0.5 x Lemon juice / Shake & strain.

[jghn]

Negronis only have three ingredients but make for a good bartender test for exactly this reason. a) do they even know what it is? b) do they know the 3 ingredients? c) Do they know the correct proportions?

It's not like a martini which is a term that can mean just about anything from person to person.

[ravenstine]

Agreed! I love negronis, but have found that they can easily be screwed up. I've had more barely-adequate negronis than ones that were good or even worth drinking, but they're my favorite cocktail when they're good. They're just uncommon enough that many bartenders forget exactly what's in them.

[jghn]

I picked this up from a local food writer.

One of the categories in which he bins bartenders is "they don't know what it is, but don't try to wing it & when I tell them they make it correctly" and he views that as an acceptable outcome as well. If they can manage to make 1/3 each of 3 ingredients it means he can trust them to follow instructions on other drinks as well.

[schwartzworld]

In most bars a frozen Pina colada also only has two ingredients: rum and Pina colada mix.

A martini is deceptive in its simplicity. The lack of flavorful ingredients like lime juice or coconut milk means technique and balance are more important, not less.

[Steve44]

A good martini takes skill and good ingredients to make. The gin and the vermouth choice make a difference, as does the way they are mixed and how they are garnished.

One thing I've not seen mentioned in other comments is the importance of the lemon twist. It's not just a visual garnish, when the oils are expressed onto the finished drink it adds a big layer of aroma which is an important part of the drink.

[FuriouslyAdrift]

A drop of bitters can make a HUGE difference. There's also many many variations in style and substance. (I prefer a Vesper that's actually close to the original recipe with Tempus Fugit Kina l'Aero d'Or or an upside down Martini with a vermouth as the main and gin as the additive)

[dreamcompiler]

A proper martini has only one real ingredient. The other is virtual.

[bamfly]

I can only imagine this is the actual preference of two types of people:

1) Those who've never had a good martini made with high-quality, fresh vermouth, carefully chosen to complement the gin (or vodka, for that variant) being used.

2) Folks who've adopted the preference not due to genuinely preferring straight gin to an actually good martini, but because they've decided it's somehow more hard-core, classy, or old-school, due to Churchill et al. (I wouldn't say it's any of those, but to each their own—if anything, the Churchill thing reads to me more as an alcoholism joke than serious advice)

I would agree, however, that given a decent-or-better gin and cheap vermouth that was opened six months ago and has been sitting in the back of a cabinet since, I'd rather have the gin neat or over ice. Both primary ingredients need to be good to make a tasty martini—otherwise, sure, why bother, and yeah, the vast majority of bars probably don't go through enough good vermouth to justify stocking it at all (let alone multiple kinds to pair thoughtfully with various gins) so many places just can't make a good martini. I certainly wouldn't judge a bartender's skill at anything but a very-fancy bar based on how good a martini they make. It's not a drink with an acceptable cheap version, IMO—there's nothing for the cheapness to hide behind.

[dreamcompiler]

I'm in category 1 personally. I'll drink straight vermouth (if it's good) as an aperitif. But so many people seem to agree with Churchill I find it funny.

[mauvehaus]

I've said it (quoted it?) before and I'll say it again: A bone dry martini is just a glass of cold gin.

A martini requires vermouth. Drinking cold gin is a fine thing to do, but you needn't confuse the issue by calling it a martini.

[OJFord]

If we're not mixing them, I'd pick the vermouth any day personally.

[iamthepieman]

I'm pretty sure that quote from Churchill about how to make a martini is apocryphal.

"I would like to observe the vermouth from across the room while I drink my martini.”

Or "pour the gin and nod in the direction of France"

[twic]

The Martini you are thinking of definitely has two ingredients - you couldn't make it without ice.

[stuntkite]

Who drinks a pina colada to start a night? Sazerac is the test.

[kgwxd]

Or maybe just drop the pretentious snobbery all together.

[hluska]

Or just don’t test bartenders? They have bosses who do that for you. Did you feel entitled to call up Google and start interviewing their engineers the first time you used the search engine?

[ravenstine]

Some of my favorite social experiences occurred at hotel bars near airports. An example was a time I struck up a conversation with a woman who turned out to be a flight attendant, and we ended up eating dinner together and talking for hours. Even gave me her phone number! It's one of those things that's only likely to happen in another setting such as a noisy sports bar. Being able to hear each other was really important; most bars where I live have bad acoustics and music blaring, which I think suppresses random conversations.

My other favorite type of bar is those at fancy restaurants. They are usually quieter, have better clientele, and are often a de facto loophole for eating dinner without a reservation.

[ravenstine]

> only likely

unlikely*

[whartung]

> I love hotel bars, and not just for the quiet.

I was out of town once with my wife, and we were in a hotel. We went down to the lounge, and it was a nice, serene space, with quiet little seating spaces. It had a great atmosphere and snack mix.

Later, I had to go back to the same area and, having had a good experience, I picked the same hotel hoping to use the lounge again.

But, alas, the hotel was overrun by a High School Jazz Band event.

Quiet was not on the menu this trip!

[jamal-kumar]

I just recall this from when I used to enjoy alcohol - ordering a martini to test proficiency of bartender, and then getting charged for a full, disgusting entire shot of vermouth in there because the bartenders get in TROUBLE for not metering out shots in full, across many bars. Like there's just no recourse for them to add a little capful because there's graduated marks on the bottles and their boss is being overbearing, across many different bars this being the policy.

[justinhj]

“A perfect martini should be made by filling a glass with gin, then waving it in the general direction of Italy.” I don’t drink but it’s a nice quote by Noel Coward

[jamal-kumar]

Dude may as well have just said "I only slam hard liquor straight"

[wcedmisten]

Wow this was written beautifully!

[crossroadsguy]

For me that is so for a bigger personal reason (along with the big enough of reason of not being noisy) - because these places almost never have even a whiff of cigarette smoke and I love that. A place where you can drink without having to worry about someone lighting up. Especially the ones which are connected to the lobby - awesome, that means no one is allowed to ever smoke in there.

[hluska]

I was a bartender when I was young and so please cut the bullshit. Bartenders see this kind of shit constantly and it’s usually a tell that you have low confidence and a really bad personality. Confident people who come from money don’t care to flaunt like this. Whoop dee shit, you are extremely opinionated about martinis. You might think it makes you sound like a big shot but the opposite is true.

[BlueTemplar]

Curious, can you go to one if you're not renting a room in the hotel ?

[omni]

Sure you can, businesses generally love you giving them money in exchange for goods and services.

[bww]

… and you’ll give them plenty.

I live in New York, but I rarely go to hotel bars here because, while frequently comfortable, they are outrageously expensive. On my most recent visit this spring I paid $24 for a single very mediocre cocktail.

[whymauri]

Hotel bars are in a liminal space where some of the best bars in the world are in big city hotels, but also some of the most disappointing bars. Hard to know without searching in advanced. I'm not sure I would just walk in when the prices are steep across the board for hotel bars.

[omni]

> On my most recent visit this spring I paid $24 for a single very mediocre cocktail.

I have bad news about every restaurant in Manhattan since Covid.

[munificent]

> Places where you can be friends (or at least get drunk) with a total stranger for one evening.

Conventions and cruises can scratch this itch too.

[fortuna86]

One of my favorite travel tips is duck in anywhere, order a cocktail, tip well, then ask the bartender "If you were off today, where would you go?"

Found the best bars i've ever been to this way.