[frederikvs]

ESA really needs to work on how they present this kind of thing. Igniting a brand new rocket engine is a sensational event - I would have expected at least a video of the full 12 second burn, from a good viewpoint. Ideally from multiple camera angles.

But we just get one still image, taken from what looks like the worst position.

ESA is doing really cool stuff, but they're doing a bad job of convincing people that they're doing cool stuff.

[aeroman]

The PR part also applies to Earth Observation Satellites (ESA and EUMETSAT). (Almost) any time you see a wide area picture of the Earth from Space (particularly around a weather event), it comes from NASA's MODIS instrument [e.g. 0].

The European (approximate) equivalent, AATSR, had a lot of really nice scientific qualities, but it was missing a blue channel, meaning that the 'true-colour' images it produced always had a blue tint to the clouds. There was a similar problem with the European geostationary satellite imager (SEVIRI) [1].

Scientifically, SEVIRI was incredibly useful (and far in advance of the American equivalent at the time), but the lack of a blue channel meant that it was never really used for those shots that made it onto the news (and neither was AATSR). When you have spent multiple billions on a satellite programme, you generally want the public to see it.

I remember being told at one point that this was considered such an issue that the Europeans would 'never launch a satellite without a blue channel again' - although that might be overstating it a little.

[0] - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11901718

[1] - https://www.cloudsandclimate.com/blog/got_the_blues/

[dougmwne]

It’s funny how well that fits in with cultural stereotypes. The US had an insane culture of self promotion and salesmanship. Europe has a culture of intense elitism. ESA designed an excellent satellite that focused on the “right” goals, and promptly forgot the dirty peasants whose money they were really spending.

[ekianjo]

Its more private companies vs public agencies. Compare SpaceX to NASA and you will see the exact same thing.

[belter]

SpaceX is, primarily, a government contractor: $15.3 billion in awarded contracts since 2003, according to US government records.

[gessha]

Few things can beat the Saturn V launch video [1] with the enhanced audio in terms of sheer US domination propaganda and I don’t mean it in a bad way.

Those close up shots of the rocket and the massive letters USA plastered everywhere is a textbook example of how to market space related projects.

[1] - https://youtu.be/ViNcBQ8cDA0

[samstave]

James Burk Connections Launch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCJh5D0FCZk

[Dalewyn]

Similarly, the Hubble Space Telescope has done more to raise and advance interest in space among the commons than anything else in unmanned space exploration.

[kortilla]

It shouldn’t be surprising. Unless you’re operating outside of a regime of democracy, you have to convince the majority (i.e. very dumb people by academic standards) that it’s worth it.

7th graders control your budget.

[raverbashing]

True

Remember Juno was also almost launched without a camera as well

[breput]

They do a similar thing for their launch webcasts - they barely show or talk about the rocket and focus mostly on the pan-European cooperation aspects. It might be a cultural thing but they also know who is paying their bills.

Always. Show. The. Rocket.

[carstenhag]

On the other hand, I was at CERN once, and they were just giving us slides like no tomorrow (and of course also a tour). If I was a billionaire (or a politician) I would have given them lots of money

[n40487171]

The cern tour is really cool. They actually take you to see the instruments where possible. Got to see some huuuge copper busbars that they use to dump current from the electromagnets. And got to see some sections of the main tube that were in the repair area (maybe they were display units).

[throw_pm23]

It is a US/Europe difference in attitude that can be seen across all fields.

[rqtwteye]

Self promotion is just way more accepted in the US vs most European countries. You notice this in ESA vs NASA. I also notice it when I read resumes. Resumes from European countries are way more subdued than ones from the US.

[fastball]

ESA isn't avoiding self-promotion, they're just bad at it.

[ekianjo]

you dont need self promotion when you spend taxpayers money

[causality0]

I have to agree with you. They're more than happy to label anything "NASA/ESA" when the ESA's project contribution was fifty Euros and a can of spray paint.

[martin8412]

Hey, that spray paint was load bearing!

[panick21_]

This is just overplayed. If you look at European rocket startups, they don't act much different. Some of them are even more prone to hype and exaggeration then American equivalence.

Its just that ESA in particular has that culture.

[JBorrow]

No it’s not, this even goes to things like reference letters. US letters for the same candidate are always much stronger and use very different language.

[zarzavat]

Americans are just more comfortable showing emotion in general. It’s well known among musicians that American audiences are very different to European ones, they show their appreciation and involvement much more readily (and then there’s the Japanese…). There’s also that whole thing about clapping when the plane lands.

[jorvi]

.. it is pretty much the opposite of what you say.

Have you ever seen a European sports crowd vs an American one?

European crowds are passionate. American crowds are exaggerated.

[martin8412]

Go on any charter plane from Northern Europe to Southern Europe holiday destinations, and you'll hear plenty of clapping when the plane lands.

[teajunky]

You watch this video about the excitement level of NASA vs ESA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtOGcgWozd4

[victorhooi]

Wow - haha, that video is pure gold, and really hammers the OP's point home...

Nice find - if I could upvote your post I would.

[jansan]

Yes, as a European I an relate, and it's a bit sad.

[lo_zamoyski]

Even in resumes/CVs. Americans tend to exaggerate and play up their experience in a manner you don't see that much of in Europe.

[adventured]

Perhaps, however I would expect they would understand the immense value of selling it to the European public by properly showing them what they're paying for. Getting the European public excited about space is half the battle (for funding), NASA has understood that for well over half a century. Somehow ESA is still oblivious (which helps explain their budget).

[goethes_kind]

They don't need to sell it to the public because the public has less than zero say. They need to sell it to the funding agencies and that is what they are doing. Also, the bombastic American style marketing comes off as insincere to most of us.

[roarcher]

They're being paid by the public to build something. Showing them that it actually works is "bombastic American style marketing"? In the US we would call it accountability.

Modesty is great and all, but this comes across more like "thanks for the taxes, now fuck off".

[kergonath]

The public does not vote directly on any of this, and science in general is far down the list of priorities and thus get very little time in debates and campaigns. None of the regular citizens watching this can realistically do anything if they don’t like it.

The ESA is at its core all about cooperation and has to navigate an international landscape very far from the US government. It’s a technocratic agency; it cannot be used for communication purposes by politicians. Their job is to do the work and leave the communication bits to journalists. On one hand I’d like them to do more outreach towards the general population, because history has proven time and time again that you cannot trust journalists for vulgarisation. On the other, I don’t want this to turn into a political circus and funding to fluctuate as political parties get interested or not.

The good side of this is that science gets done reliably, on predictable budgets that span decades and not years, even the unsexy science that would not set crowds on fire. True, it reduces enthusiasm but you cannot have everything.

[panick21_]

> Their job is to do the work and leave the communication bits to journalists.

Yeah but here is the thing. If you systematically exclude journalist. Don't give them any access. Hide everything you are doing and not even provide basic video footage of a engine test, they don't have anything to work with.

And of course that is even more true when Arianespace is flat out hiding damaging information that tax payers should know. And ESA supports them in that.

Major issues with Ariane 5 fairings were hidden from the public and it took a long time until it came out.

Lets face the facts, ESA has constructed a space monopoly and the monopolist is doing everything to hide its failures from the public, not giving journalist access so they can't talk about it. Journalist that are known to ask critical questions are routinely not invited to events.

If that is the kind of society you want to live in, be my guest. But I prefer that we actually have some accountability from our tax pair funded agency and monopolist.

> The good side of this is that science gets done reliably, on predictable budgets that span decades and not years

That's just not really true. ESA has as many project go over budget as anybody else. The Ariane 6 is a massive delayed and has a massively increased budget (and no end in sight). And we could talk about many other projects too.

The idea that ESA is some unpolitical agency that just executes perfectly is what they want you to believe and they downplay all the issues. Journalist that report on these issues have to find the details the hard way. But because space is so uninteresting in Europe there is not much good reporting on it.

Its also not true that ESA is humble and unpolitical. If they have something to brag about they do so pretty relentlessly. Go read ESA and Arianespace comments about SpaceX around 2015-2019, the were basically all over them selfes talking about how much superior they were.

And reticently they have done a lot of political lobbying to increase their budget and pushing for European space flight.

They do all these things, its just less visible to the public because the public cares less then in the US.

[M2Ys4U]

ESA is a step removed from public funding when compared to NASA.

NASA is directly accountable to the US Congress, both in terms of the appointment of its director and its budget.

ESA is an IGO, and its Director-General is appointed by consensus amongst the member states, and its budget is set by them based on national contributions as well.

Not to mention that most also have their own space agencies (of varying capabilities). Even the EU has EUSPA, separate to, but collaborating with, ESA.

[JumpCrisscross]

There is nothing here they could hype without sounding bombastic because the only novel bit is it’s European. Europe produces great marketing when it has something worth promoting.

[roarcher]

Nobody is asking for "hype" or "bombastic marketing". Just a video of it in operation. It's a rocket, it's cool, people like to see rockets. If you used their money to build it, that doesn't seem like too much to ask.

I'm not a European taxpayer so nobody owes me a video. I'm just perplexed by the attitude of the (I presume) Europeans in this thread. Being proud of the fact that your government doesn't care if you're happy with their use of your taxes is...I'm not sure what it is, but it isn't modesty.

And before anyone (correctly) points this out: Yes, the US government doesn't much care what we think either, though it does a better job of pretending to. But you'd be hard pressed to find an American who will brag about it. And at least NASA releases cool videos.

[WeylandYutani]

Case in point the European anthem.

[xyzzyz]

You’re right in principle, this is indeed how it should work in theory. In practice, though, it’s all very much "thanks for the taxes, now fuck off", and US is not much better here.

[Aeolun]

> Also, the bombastic American style marketing comes off as insincere to most of us.

It does. But I also enjoy me rocket videos. Having a nice video instead of a still image would not appreciably move the meter of my bullshit detector.

[Dylan16807]

A video (or two) of the rocket surely isn't too bombastic?

[masswerk]

I guess that will happen, when they have a functioning system, i.e. a product. (Showing off with some in-between, not fit for purpose stage may be deemed somewhat embarassing, compare cultural differences.)

[panick21_]

Its not cultural. Lots of European aerospace startups act not much different then American ones. In some cases they are even more over the top then American startups.

This is more about ESA culture then European culture in general.

[masswerk]

Well, startups are not actually a mainstay of European cultural tradition… ;-)

On the other hand, more traditional enterprises, like, say, Mercedes Benz, will be quite cautious with claims about their R&D, until they have their level III autonomous car system actually approved (and even then… don't make too much of a fuzz, as it is still limited, etc…)

[martin8412]

That's actually a great comparison. Tesla spends tons of cash boasting about their cars' level of automation.

Meanwhile Mercedes just brings a product to market that is superior without big fanfare.

[noselasd]

And that’s the difference

[palata]

I like to think that ESA tries to do mostly research (even though they also like manned missions, which are mostly for fun).

SpaceX, on the other hand, is building a very polluting business, which IMHO should be forbidden in 2023. But there I would think that the people in the EU are more aware of the problem than in the US.

[martin8412]

ESAs budget for 2023 is a measly €7.08B coming from the member states which is in return invested proportionally into contracts in the member states.

The US spends four times the amount of tax money per capita.

[panick21_]

This engine development for example, is something that in the US startups who don't get much government money are doing. And there are like 10+ companies working on comparable technology.

Yes ESA budget is small compared to NASA but they also do far less things.

And when they do things its not efficient. Ariane 6 for example is a minor upgrade over Ariane 5 with mostly parts that were developed for Ariane 5 ME. And yet somehow it cost will easily pass 5 billion $ and that doesn't include even e new engine. And a lot of cost is also hidden on other balance sheet, a full accounting would be likely more.

That might be about 2x as much as the complete Falcon 9 (+ Falcon Heavy) + Merlin + Re-usability program cost.

So yes, a comparative small budget, but that doesn't actually explain many of the issues.

[martin8412]

But it is a geopolitical issue.. The goal is not to have the cheapest or most efficient rocket. It is to have independent launch capabilities. If the EU wanted cheap, they'd just eat the shit sandwich of using Russian launch vehicles.

[ClumsyPilot]

> This engine development for example, is something that in the US startups who don't get much government money are doing. And there are like 10+ companies working on comparable technology.

"working on" is not good enough, most start-ups never succeed. Very few have a fully-tested reusable engine. And the engine has to be in the same class - most start-ups work on miniature rockets, only good to launch a couple tons into space.

Bottomn line is, Europe does not have the intense private investment for this sort of thing, but the work still needs to be done.

[hef19898]

The only start up that got anywhere in aerospace, beyond some toy drones, so far is SpaceX.

[aardvarkr]

How does SpaceX pollute?

[martin8412]

Really???

https://news.yahoo.com/spacexs-debris-spewing-starship-launc...

SpaceX breaks the law all the time.

[palata]

It requires quite some energy to build a rocket (you know, from extracting the matter from the Earth to having something that looks like a rocket on the launchpad), and then some more to fly.

There is no such thing as "green energy": even if SpaceX only used renewable energy, a) renewables are not zero-carbon and b) renewables are not infinite, so if you use it for SpaceX, you don't use it for something else, and that something else may well be using fossil fuels.

But let's be clear: SpaceX doesn't run 100% on renewable energy. So there's that.

Then, right now it is not launching rockets everyday, but I understand that the goal is to grow a lot. Create a whole new space industry. Just like one plane does not pollute that much on its own, if you take the entire aviation sector, that starts to make a lot.

I guess my point is generally that we are facing huge problems (peak oil, biodiversity collapsing, climate change just joining the party) that will probably destroy society as we know it. I don't think that pushing a lot more with a commercial space business is a good idea.

Reusable rockets are like the 5G for mobile comms: for the same usage, it requires less energy. But 5G will enable much more usage and hence it will use much more energy than 4G. Reusable rockets getting to 10M a launch... well rich people will be able to go have dinner in space, just for fun. That's not sustainable.

[panick21_]

That's all just degrowth narrative. We should all go back to using coal fired trains because then we might use them less. Lets use horses instead of cars, then people will travel less.

> peak oil, biodiversity collapsing, climate change just joining the party

Peak oil isn't a thing.

Rocket launch pads actually are great for biodiversity as it requires a lot of land around it without humans. And animals turns out aren't that bothered by occasional rocket launches. See the high biodiversity around Kennedy Space Center as an example.

Climate change will mostly be decided on other playing fields.

> well rich people will be able to go have dinner in space, just for fun

How about trying not hold back the space industry when that is more then 0.0X% of the the market.

[booi]

this is definitely something SpaceX does right. Even the most mundane launches is a multi-hour professional production with high quality cameras in multiple angles.. even when the thing explodes it feels like it went well.

[GuB-42]

ESA maybe does too little, but SpaceX does too much, at least to my taste.

Looking at SpaceX streams sometimes feel more like a sporting event than the coverage of a space mission. I mean, is it really necessary to cheer at every successful phase of the launch even though these are pretty much nailed down, that the mission is still underway, and that the hard part (like the landing when it wasn't a routine thing) is up ahead?

For me, NASA is the best. They show the things as they are, without trying to pump up the hype. I mean, rocket launches are maybe the most awe inspiring thing humanity can do, alongside nuclear explosions (imagine nuclear rockets if we ever make them). Some of the most iconic footage from NASA is technical footage, not originally intended for the public, so really, let the thing speak for itself, no need for SpaceX cheerleaders.

[ttepasse]

Another European here who is forced to mute the SpaceX streams because of a heavy feeling of cringe on behalf of the on-screen people.

But on the pro side: SpaceX was the pioneer with on-screen graphics, including the dynamic timeline displaying, where we are in the flight. I deeply appreciate that, not just for making it easier to mute the lunatics and the clapping. It’s good information design.

[palata]

> this is definitely something SpaceX does right.

To me (european), I don't like how SpaceX shows off. The technology is cool though, but when I see their kind of communication, to me it sounds like "US marketing".

So yeah... cultural thing maybe.

[reaperducer]

I don't think of it as showing off. I think of it as documenting for posterity.

We're at an inflection point when it comes to space exploration. Ar this rate, future generations will have days of video and documentation of the accomplishments in America, and a footnote along the lines of "Europe did some things, too. Visit the sub-basement of a library in an office building in Paris for more information."

[palata]

Not sure who will spend days watching the same rocket takeoff and land :-).

Also at this rate, future generations will have to focus on surviving with much less fossil fuels (we're passed peak oil), in a world that basically wants to kill them due to global warming.

Chances are that days of video of the accomplishments of the generation that actively destroyed their world (while being fully aware of it) won't be their main concern.

[panick21_]

Rockets are one of the things where we simply have to use fossil fuels, and its a drop in the bucket.

The resulting services and sats actually help in any reasonable climate change strategy.

> Not sure who will spend days watching the same rocket takeoff and land :-).

Here is the thing. Anytime can be the first time for somebody. If you don't make an effort to show everything you do, nobody will ever know you exists.

Yes some space obsessed people will watch everything, and that's fine also. But you never get those people if they don't see something first time.

I am European too and I like how transparent SpaceX is, and they don't even have to be. Arianespace literally tried to hide for 1 year that they had major issues with Ariane 5. When asked why it wasn't launching they were basically saying 'everything is ok'. But eventually journalist got wind off the fact that there were major issues in the fairings.

The culture of secrecy and non-transparency has done nothing but harm to European space flight.

Its not barging to show a video of a test fire or a test launch.

[palata]

> Rockets are one of the things where we simply have to use fossil fuels, and its a drop in the bucket.

Well it's more than you may think (don't take only the fuel for the flight, but consider the whole construction of the thing).

But more importantly, they are making space a business. The first plane was a drop in a bucket, but it enabled modern aviation. If SpaceX hits their target of 10M per flight... rich people will go have lunch in space.

> The resulting services and sats actually help in any reasonable climate change strategy.

What? I very strongly disagree. But I won't elaborate more than you did.

[neerajsi]

> Not sure who will spend days watching the same rocket takeoff and land :-).

Have you met a small child?

[palata]

Well at this point it kind of loses a bit the value of "documenting for posterity", doesn't it? At least the small children I have seen don't really seem to realize what an achievement it is to land a rocket.

I mean, it's cool to have some videos. I watched a few SpaceX launches, and I still will watch the next Starship flights. But it's not like I watch every single launch of every single rocket (does SpaceX even make such an event every time?).

[Aeolun]

On the balance, I much prefer having the stream to not having it. I can always turn the sound/commentary off.

[FeepingCreature]

European here, I don't get this at all. SpaceX is fine.

[palata]

Sure, and that's fine. I was just sharing my feeling :)

[ragebol]

It does seem American to me (as a European) too. But i like it and it works. We seem really bad at this kind of PR at this side of the pond

[lo_zamoyski]

I wonder if they use canned cheering, or get/hire a claque.

[ChuckMcM]

Agree, their live launch coverage is pretty, uh, not great.

I realize that not everyone "gets" how SpaceX "sells" their product but it is super helpful when people see you as a cool, forward thinking, place to work contribute.

[lamontcg]

> ESA is doing really cool stuff, but they're doing a bad job of convincing people that they're doing cool stuff.

Why does it matter?

They don't need to convince you that they're doing "cool stuff", they need to convince the people who want to put up satellites that they're going to offer cheap cost-competitive launch vehicles.

[MrDresden]

ESA is a government run entity and as such definitely needs the public behind it when it comes to funding.

Not realising that would be gross incompetence on their part.

[M2Ys4U]

ESA is an IGO, it's not beholden to any one government, not even the EU (which has their own space agency, EUSPA).

ESA's member states might need to show their publics what they're doing with public money, and they do that, in part, by showing their collaboration with other ESA partners on projects.

[jmyeet]

The ESA is a political entity that relies on state funding and support. It absolutely neds good PR so the people feel like they're doing good work. It makes it easier for politicians to keep giving them that money and support.

They absolutely need to convince us they're doing "cool stuff".

[martin8412]

No. They just need to award contracts to companies in the member countries. It creates plenty of jobs.

[colordrops]

There's a halo effect. For instance all the PR that SpaceX has done has attracted a massive amount of talent.

[sebzim4500]

But realistically that isn't going to happen, so they have to convince the EU to pump money into it instead.

[martin8412]

No..

SpaceX funding comes from the members of ESA. The member countries are proportionally awarded contracts developing things for ESA in return.

[martin8412]

ESA funding*

[mytailorisrich]

In Europe we say that Americans know showmanship, which is not always meant as a compliment.

This is a cultural difference.

[throwawaylinux]

Might also be a case of envy and sour gapes, and not reflect all that well on the Europeans saying that.

This thread is full of people claiming Europeans are not boastful or self-promoting, which is pretty strange to me because the internet is full of Europeans boasting about how much better their countries allegedly are than the US about almost any subject you can think of. Healthcare, public transport, crime, politics, you name it. But you find one topic where US is unquestionably better than Europe (like rocketry), and all of a sudden it's a grave sin to boast about things, and the discussion turns into how much better Europe is at not being boastful.

[martin8412]

Because it doesn't in any way benefit citizens to do better in the realm of space?

Not to mention that SpaceX only exists because of corruption at government level that resulted in contracts to SpaceX. Basically friend favours.

[throwawaylinux]

No, not because that.

[jansan]

I was in the U.S. Space & Rocket Center in Huntsville a few weeks ago. We watched the Webb telescope presentation with a live comment in the planetary, and I could not believe how perfectly the presentation was done. Everything was absolutely flawless and I am almost sure that not a single person in Germany would be able to deliver a presentation on that level of perfection. It was not showmanship, it was just outstanding skill at doing a presentation, and I wish people in Europe would be better trained in doing this.

[bboygravity]

I don't agree that ESA starting to build a reusable rocket in 2023 falls under "cool stuff".

IMO it demonstrates the incredibly sad state of space transport technology and technology developmnet in general in Europe (compared to the US).

Just a reminder that SpaceX was basically where ESA is in 2023 two (2) decades ago.

[ant6n]

Europe has about 9000Km of High Speed Rail Lines, the US has, … umm, let me check the papers, carry the six, uh

…0 km.

The US has built relatively few metros or trams or even bicycle infrastructure, anything modern and sustainable is not done and not developed. I’d guess the EU has built about 10 times more of these infrastructures in the last 40 years, if not more.

[meling]

Funny to see this and other comments like it today. I’m European, and just back from an enjoyable day at the Kennedy Space Center. NASA certainly knows how to promote their space program. Got to see the launch of 56 starlink satellites. And that Saturn 5 rocket is pretty big.

[js8]

> ESA is doing really cool stuff, but they're doing a bad job of convincing people that they're doing cool stuff

Yes. Another example is when JWST was launched, it should really have been compared to Herschel rather than Hubble.

[voidfunc]

I think it's a European cultural thing. They're not good at selling sizzle.

[mardifoufs]

Is this a joke? I keep seeing this sentiment on this comment section but this is the complete opposite of my experience in Europe ( don't live there anymore though). Maybe it was just France, but every single inconsequential start up was labelled as the next Google and every city was the new SV. every tiny corporation had to have its army of "cadres" and European businesses' love for countless "initiatives" , buzzwords, blockchain, greenwashing... And so on would make American big tech look downright bullshit free in comparison.

I'm not American and even then it left me with a weird feeling of little man syndrome.

[hcks]

Being 10 years behind technologically is surely a European cultural thing.

Besides, what’s there to sell? An experiment SpaceX did back in 2016?

[martin8412]

Yea.. What SpaceX does is straight up illegal in the EU. For the good of everyone.

[DiggyJohnson]

What? ESA seems very interested in reusable launch vehicles as of late.

[martin8412]

SpaceX keeps breaking the law left and right. They're currently being sued for contaminating a wildlife sanctuary, and they're constantly at odds with the FAA. Not to mention various state agencies.

[DiggyJohnson]

They have a pretty good relationship with the FAA. I hate to be so blunt but you do not have enough knowledge of this topic to be overstating like such.

[panick21_]

Anybdoy can sue at any time. It meaningless and does not mean a law was broken.

[FeepingCreature]

10 years, I wish. 10 years ago was SpaceX's first reentry attempt.

[nelox]

Nice burn.

[shagie]

Long ago on Youtube, ESA had a channel with - I want to say "Dr. Dave" but its hazy - who showed a lot of the neat imagery that was coming out of Hubble.

(digging about)

Dr. J. https://youtu.be/bPH8PNlNilY - which leads me back to https://esahubble.org/videos/hubblecast50a/

But they've gone from a fairly charismatic/geeky presenter to white text on pictures with a music background. https://youtu.be/gbz_VRKMrh4

... and so now I watch PBS Space Time with Dr. Matt for the long form science videos from a trusted source.