[roarcher]

They're being paid by the public to build something. Showing them that it actually works is "bombastic American style marketing"? In the US we would call it accountability.

Modesty is great and all, but this comes across more like "thanks for the taxes, now fuck off".

[kergonath]

The public does not vote directly on any of this, and science in general is far down the list of priorities and thus get very little time in debates and campaigns. None of the regular citizens watching this can realistically do anything if they don’t like it.

The ESA is at its core all about cooperation and has to navigate an international landscape very far from the US government. It’s a technocratic agency; it cannot be used for communication purposes by politicians. Their job is to do the work and leave the communication bits to journalists. On one hand I’d like them to do more outreach towards the general population, because history has proven time and time again that you cannot trust journalists for vulgarisation. On the other, I don’t want this to turn into a political circus and funding to fluctuate as political parties get interested or not.

The good side of this is that science gets done reliably, on predictable budgets that span decades and not years, even the unsexy science that would not set crowds on fire. True, it reduces enthusiasm but you cannot have everything.

[panick21_]

> Their job is to do the work and leave the communication bits to journalists.

Yeah but here is the thing. If you systematically exclude journalist. Don't give them any access. Hide everything you are doing and not even provide basic video footage of a engine test, they don't have anything to work with.

And of course that is even more true when Arianespace is flat out hiding damaging information that tax payers should know. And ESA supports them in that.

Major issues with Ariane 5 fairings were hidden from the public and it took a long time until it came out.

Lets face the facts, ESA has constructed a space monopoly and the monopolist is doing everything to hide its failures from the public, not giving journalist access so they can't talk about it. Journalist that are known to ask critical questions are routinely not invited to events.

If that is the kind of society you want to live in, be my guest. But I prefer that we actually have some accountability from our tax pair funded agency and monopolist.

> The good side of this is that science gets done reliably, on predictable budgets that span decades and not years

That's just not really true. ESA has as many project go over budget as anybody else. The Ariane 6 is a massive delayed and has a massively increased budget (and no end in sight). And we could talk about many other projects too.

The idea that ESA is some unpolitical agency that just executes perfectly is what they want you to believe and they downplay all the issues. Journalist that report on these issues have to find the details the hard way. But because space is so uninteresting in Europe there is not much good reporting on it.

Its also not true that ESA is humble and unpolitical. If they have something to brag about they do so pretty relentlessly. Go read ESA and Arianespace comments about SpaceX around 2015-2019, the were basically all over them selfes talking about how much superior they were.

And reticently they have done a lot of political lobbying to increase their budget and pushing for European space flight.

They do all these things, its just less visible to the public because the public cares less then in the US.

[kergonath]

> That's just not really true. ESA has as many project go over budget as anybody else. The Ariane 6 is a massive delayed and has a massively increased budget (and no end in sight). And we could talk about many other projects too.

Sure, it was poorly worded. I meant from the funding providers’ side. Funding just does not get cut capriciously for political reasons.

> The idea that ESA is some unpolitical agency that just executes perfectly is what they want you to believe and they downplay all the issues. Journalist that report on these issues have to find the details the hard way. But because space is so uninteresting in Europe there is not much good reporting on it.

Yeah, I tend to agree. But it’s not unique to space, the same is true in most fields, even technologies that affect people’s lives daily.

> Its also not true that ESA is humble and unpolitical. If they have something to brag about they do so pretty relentlessly. Go read ESA and Arianespace comments about SpaceX around 2015-2019, the were basically all over them selfes talking about how much superior they were.

Yeah, that one was quite bad. And also childish, because everyone saw what was happening and the fact that they went through so much effort to say that everything was fine was very suspicious.

[M2Ys4U]

ESA is a step removed from public funding when compared to NASA.

NASA is directly accountable to the US Congress, both in terms of the appointment of its director and its budget.

ESA is an IGO, and its Director-General is appointed by consensus amongst the member states, and its budget is set by them based on national contributions as well.

Not to mention that most also have their own space agencies (of varying capabilities). Even the EU has EUSPA, separate to, but collaborating with, ESA.

[JumpCrisscross]

There is nothing here they could hype without sounding bombastic because the only novel bit is it’s European. Europe produces great marketing when it has something worth promoting.

[roarcher]

Nobody is asking for "hype" or "bombastic marketing". Just a video of it in operation. It's a rocket, it's cool, people like to see rockets. If you used their money to build it, that doesn't seem like too much to ask.

I'm not a European taxpayer so nobody owes me a video. I'm just perplexed by the attitude of the (I presume) Europeans in this thread. Being proud of the fact that your government doesn't care if you're happy with their use of your taxes is...I'm not sure what it is, but it isn't modesty.

And before anyone (correctly) points this out: Yes, the US government doesn't much care what we think either, though it does a better job of pretending to. But you'd be hard pressed to find an American who will brag about it. And at least NASA releases cool videos.

[JumpCrisscross]

> perplexed by the attitude of the (I presume) Europeans in this thread

It's deflection. ESA and ArianeSpace have left a massive strategic hole in Europe's capabilities, in large part due to the arrogance of their leadership.

I haven't met a capable European (and yes, I think I can speak that broadly to this) who couldn't communicate why they'd be good at a job or why a job done was done well. When people say they're eschewing promotion out of humility, it's usually because they don't have anything promotable or are bad communicators.

[martin8412]

Anybody competent I know, don't go around boasting about doing their jobs well. Your job doesn't define you, and you don't make it your personality in Europe. You do the job you're asked to do and move on. It's just part of your employment, not some major success. The ones who do boast are making up for their incompetence by pointing to their few successes.

[Aeolun]

> I haven't met a capable European

Or maybe you’ve just been unable to appreciate it for the ones that didn’t promote themselves your way?

I do a really good job, but there’s no reason to make a big deal out of it because that’s what I’m hired for.

[martin8412]

Exactly .. The guy above is just unable to appreciate those people, because they don't have to boast about doing what they're paid to do well. It is super basic. People boasting are usually less qualified.

[JumpCrisscross]

> there’s no reason to make a big deal out of it because that’s what I’m hired for

I grew up in Europe, so I understand what you’re saying. Constant self promotion is one thing. Knowing when to point out that you have the skills to help or taking credit when it’s due (and callable upon) is another. Most of the people who complained about not being able to do the latter had little more than effort to call on.

[panick21_]

As a European from an ESA member state. Shaking my head at how ESA and Arianespace operate is just so frequent that I risking whiplash. I can't get bothered by every single instance where they do a bad job on minor things like this.

I wouldn't even mind if they sucked at things like this if they would actually have the right strategy and do the large things correct. Sadly they are really bad at the large things and the small things.

[WeylandYutani]

Case in point the European anthem.

[xyzzyz]

You’re right in principle, this is indeed how it should work in theory. In practice, though, it’s all very much "thanks for the taxes, now fuck off", and US is not much better here.