[PaulHoule]

I wouldn't say the process of unsubscribing from Prime is 'deceptive' but it sure has many steps. They tried just about everything to persuade me to stay except offer to bring back two day shipping.

(I know many of you in urban areas are getting one day shipping but those of us in less favored geographies, such as the same ZIP code as AMZN warehouses, have seen two day shipping turn into five, which makes Amazon uncompetitive with going to the store or with other e-tailers which usually offer faster shipping.)

[ezfe]

What's deceptive about it is you click the first link to cancel your benefits, then each subsequent page is basically a quiz: "which button will boot you out of the cancel flow and which button will proceed to the next page"

I agree it's not actually that hard to cancel, but the flow is so needlessly complex from a consumer perspective.

It should go straight to a page with three buttons and associated explanations:

1) Cancel at the end of the term 2) Cancel immediately and receive pro-rated refund (Since they offer this, I'm including it here - wouldn't expect it in general) 3) Keep subscription

[hombre_fatal]

I just cancelled. The first click to cancel your membership takes you to a page that says “you still have N days of your membership!” which is where you’d be able to close the page knowing your service was canceled if the service was honest.

But nah you have to scroll to the bottom and click “Continue canceling” where you’re taken the page you describe.

I don’t know how anyone can say this isn’t deceptive. If I click cancel membership, I shouldn’t be taken to a no-op interstitial page that makes me scroll to find a “continue canceling” button. That only exists to look like a “Canceled successfully” page.

[burkaman]

If you just cancelled, you saw improvements they made as a result of FTC pressure. Before April 2023 the process was much more difficult.

[laweijfmvo]

As someone who regularly gets the 1-week trial of Prime (and cancels), the cancellation process has gotten a lot less deceptive recently. E.g. they used to invert the colors of the buttons to make the "Cancel Membership" look like the negative option, etc. These days it's still unnecessarily long, but requires less double-takes to figure out.

[burkaman]

That's a direct result of this lawsuit.

> Under substantial pressure from the Commission, Amazon changed its Iliad cancellation process in or about April 2023, shortly before the filing of this Complaint.

- page 43, https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/amazon-rosca-pu...

[ezfe]

Oh for sure - I agree that the process is not something a reasonable person can't do - I use the 1 week trial of prime every time I order (and then cancel it immediately).

[devnullbrain]

I ran into this trying to cancel a free-trial a month ago. Or rather I thought I'd cancelled it and got charged.

Cancelling the 2nd time, they refunded me for the unused month. But maybe that was to do with the linked case rather than the goodness of their hearts.

[burkaman]

The complaint says they internally called the cancellation process "the Iliad Flow". See page 43 for a full description: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/amazon-rosca-pu...

[whoknew1122]

Disclosure: Work for AWS. My only experience with Prime is as a customer (and the odd beta for new types of programming).

I wouldn't read much into the internal names of things at Amazon. They're picked at random by nerds. I've seen apps internally named after space, Dragon Ball Z, Lord of the Rings, coffee and candy, etc. I'm pretty sure I've used another, completely different thing that's also called Iliad.

It's not malicious. It's just one of those Amazon things that make working there sometimes a chore.

[burkaman]

I believe you that some internal names are random, and it's possible that this one is too, but obviously Amazon doesn't have the benefit of the doubt here. What is clearly malicious is that Project Iliad was intentionally designed to reduce cancellations among the population of users that already wanted to cancel (as opposed to reducing cancellations by making the service better). Here's some of the evidence that is redacted in the FTC complaint: https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-prime-ftc-probe-custo...

> Internal documents also show that Amazon intentionally drew out the process of canceling a Prime membership. Under a project code-named "Iliad," Amazon created multiple layers of questions and new offers before a Prime member could cancel their subscription, in hopes of reducing member churn. The number of cancellations dropped by 14% at one point in 2017 following the launch of Iliad, and fewer members were navigating to the final cancellation page, one of the documents said.

[lljk_kennedy]

Yeah the internal codenames in engineering aren't malicious, i.e Apollo makes sense. But a project name? Na, that's picked intentionally.

[david_allison]

Direct page link (most in-browser PDF readers support #page=43)

https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/amazon-rosca-pu...

[burkaman]

Thanks, I guess that works in Firefox too

[everybodyknows]

Also a click-by-click guide! It's a funny world of ours, where the best UI documentation available is found in a government legal action.

[squeaky-clean]

I'm in NYC and two day shipping here is a crapshoot nowadays. Sure it says 2-day shipping on the store page, but counting my past orders, 6/10 were delayed delivery, usually taking 5 days. The last 2 times I tried buying bulk paper towels on Amazon (I had them set as a recurring purchase every 6 months) they have been lost in transit.

Also really frustrating, if I go to "Order Details" for an order that was delayed, the "Delivery Estimate" line shows the day it was actually delivered. Not the day it was originally estimated. I had to check my email to find the original delivery estimate.

[timmytokyo]

Now that Amazon is mostly low quality drop-shipped garbage from fake brands like KULUZU and PORKTI, fast and cheap shipping are about the only thing they have going for them. If that's gone, what's left?

[scrum-treats]

I would say, new "lows" are in store for Amazon. Amazon is now requiring customers to file police reports in order to have any chance at refunds now. Customer Service spews tons of lies, customers half-heartedly believe in good faith, and then get screwed. Customers then take to social media forums such as Reddit to request help and to vent. Instead they are met with Amazon employees who gaslight them further. Again, and again, and again. This new low appears to have ramped up in February/March 2023.

Amazon's response? Let's not fix the underlying issues in the company. Instead, let's attack all other social media sites for "fake reviews":

"Social media sites failing to curb 'cottage industry' of fake reviews, Amazon says"[1] (Sun 18 Jun 2023 12.27 EDT).

You read that correctly. Amazon. Is accusing everyone else. Of failing to curb "cottage industry" of fake reviews. Hilariously sad. RIP Amazon.

[1]https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/18/amazon-social-...

[anonymouskimmer]

> Amazon is now requiring customers to file police reports in order to have any chance at refunds now.

This was the case 4 years ago. I don't think it's new.

[scrum-treats]

Oh, looks like Amazon's mods haven't set the r/amazonprime subreddit back to public (https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditMonitor/comments/14cpe0j/r...).

Nevertheless, let me find a few examples.

16-Feb-2023: "Amazon making me file a police report after they delivered my neighbors package to my home."[1]

17-Feb-2023: "Delivery Issues"[2]

14-Feb-2023: "My item was marked as “delivered” but isn’t actually here, contacted Amazon and they’re asking for a police report"[3]

25-Jan-2023: "Amazon wants me to file a Police Report."[4]

24-Jan-2023: "Amazon is refusing to refund me for a missing item even after a police report. Has anyone else dealt with this and found a work around?"[5]

[1]https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonprime/comments/1147wmo/amazon...

Title says it all. This is straight up BS.

*Mon* - Delivery Day: Package Delivered, not my package it’s my neighbors package so we walk it across the street. I chat with Amazon and let them know they delivered my neighbors package but listed it as mine. I am told search around my house and check my mailbox… you must wait till the following day after 6pm before you can contact us again.

*Tues* - Contact them and this is where things should have been easy and I should have just asked for a refund. They ask do you want a refund or new item and I say I just want the item I ordered please. I am told in the next couple days wait for an email with the replacement order..

*Today/Thur* - I chat with them and say I still haven’t received an email and I am immediately greeted with [this](https://i.imgur.com/3m0W4hV.jpg). WTH I have never had an issue before what the hell is going on. I tried to give them my neighbors tracking ID on his package to say that’s the package they delivered as “mine”.

Now I have filed a police report, got my credit card company involved and am waiting for answers. I cannot believe this, they are making it seem as if I CAUSED THIS TO HAPPEN.

Needless to say I’m not happy. Just venting I’ve never been in this position before and this really ruins my experience going forward.

[2]https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonprime/comments/114korw/delive...

[3]https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonprime/comments/112ovsg/my_ite...

I came home from work on the 11th having seen my parcel as being marked as being “behind the wheelie bin”. No photo attached though. As I went round the back to get it, I noticed that there wasn’t any obvious parcel, I looked around there and back round the front of my house only to find there was no package. I spoke to my neighbours and my housemates to see if they’d seen anyone delivering from Amazon during the day, to which both parties said they hadn’t even seen a van.

I attempted to report this to amazon that day, and was told to wait until Tuesday 14th. I waited and came back to report it then, only to be told that there’s nothing to be done and that I must file a police report if I wish to get my money back.

So I call the non-emergency line (101) and explain to them what’s happened. I’m told in no uncertain terms that a non-received parcel is NOT a police matter and for the amount of the items (1 item) missing (~£50), it’s too small for them to file a report anyway. I explained to Amazon that I don’t even know if it’s stolen so how can I report it as such and am told that until the item is physically in my possession, it remains the property of Amazon and if they believe it’s been stolen then you need to file the report. The police told me it’s more of a civil matter and my best chance would be letting my bank sort this as a dispute.

Until I receive the parcel, it can't be stolen from me, and seeing as I don’t have it, how can it have been stolen from me. Amazon have a sales contract to deliver the items I ordered to me. How is this not their issue to solve?

Any suggestions?

[4]https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonprime/comments/10kttvx/amazon...

So i had ordered a couple of things off of amazon but when i received it i had only gotten one of my packages. I contacted customer support to ask for a refund or something and they told me i need to file a police report first because i guess i had already asked for a refund for a package that never showed up a while back. Never had this happen before, so do i just go and file a report and they'll refund me? Has anybody been through this before?

[5]https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonprime/comments/10kcjan/amazon...

I bought an IPhone 11 and case from Amazon (sold and shipped by them). Once the package arrived it only had the case/screen protector and no Phone. Support told me to wait a few days then they would help with a refund…but instead they told me the weight on the package was correct so they can’t do anything until I filed a police report.

So I go ahead file a police report, send Amazon the report and number of my local police and they’re still refusing to refund me. Claiming there isn’t enough proof of investigation. I just don’t know what to do and I’d rather not charge back because ik amazon has a habit of closing down accounts after that.

[taude]

Not to defend amazon, but at least in the US, they have a awesome return policy. It's even easy to just scan and drop-off at UPS/WF, etc...

[JohnFen]

I hear this, but it's hard for me to believe. I was a customer (in the US) for over 10 years, spending several thousands of dollars without an issue, but then -- on two different instances -- I needed their awesome return policy.

In both cases, they completely stiffed me. That was the final straw that made me stop using Amazon.

[taude]

Yikes, I guess I'll have to be on the look out....

[scrum-treats]

This is the new norm.

[taude]

Everyone talks about this drop-shipped garbage and fakes. But I have yet to see this. And I feel like I order a lot from Amazon. Every week our house is getting at least a couple packages.

What kind of products people ordering that they're getting fakes? I've ordered a variety of books, art supplies, shoes, some tech like batteries and cable (typically from Anker store), coffee beans, some audio streamers, Legos, notebooks, stuff for pets, gardening supplies, etc...

[timmytokyo]

Taking some of your examples:

Look up "pet sweaters". Resulting brands listed in order: Dxhycc, Fitwarm, ANIAC, Jecikelon, Queenmore.

"Audio streamer": WiiM, Andover, iFi, Arylic, Douk, ACEMAX.

"USB cable": Jelly tang, AINOPE, Ruaeoda, etguuds.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

[taude]

Interesting. I think I typically must have specific things I'm looking for. Like for example, I probably wouldn't look up "pet sweaters", but WOULD look up something like "canada pooch dog sweater". Which, takes me past all the seo-ad-targeted junk.

And now, the more I think about it, I'm typically using amazon's search for zeroing on something specific. I wouldn't even do "car charger for phone", but would do something like "Anker USB-C Charger for Pixel 6a".

And likely, most items I'm going for I'd be referred to from a site, like America's Test Kitchen or something.

In short, I guess I don't "search for discoverability" on Amazon at all, and that's how I stay out of their optimized mess.

EDIT: I also don't really purchase things that aren't independently reviewed elsewhere, like using ATK for some kitchen items, etc...

[electric_mayhem]

That’s weird. I cancelled prime a couple years ago and only sign up for it when they offer a free trial.

Without prime I still order from them more than I feel good about, but only ever opt for the free, slow, shipping.

I’m at something like 30% deliver relay in 2 days, 40% deliver in less than 5 days, and 30% take the full five days.

combining your experience with my own, really sounds like they’re losing it.

[brewdad]

My situation is similar to yours (except I avoid even the free trials) with similar shipping times. I do have a primary warehouse for my metro area about 5 miles away in my town. I think items that are in that warehouse or on their way to getting replenished arrive as quickly as ever while everything else takes longer. I'm fine with that but I'm also looking to get even further away from using Amazon after some poor recent experiences.

[dghughes]

> Sure it says 2-day shipping on the store page, but counting my past orders, 6/10 were delayed delivery, usually taking 5 days.

When I signed up the guarantee (if not then?) was three days. At first it was good for small town Canada. But then the bottom fell out. But now something may say ship time a week or two but the thing arrives four days later. They're all over the place. One may think incompetence but it's benefiting me.

The other thing I hate it Prime Video more than once I've been two episodes from the end of a show and suddenly the show access is pulled. But oh look you can rent or buy it now for more $$$ on top of your subscription.

[tracker1]

Yeah, I'm in PHX, and sometimes it's the same day, sometimes the next, sometimes a week later, despite saying 1-2 days on the order page. It's really kind of a crapshoot. I mean, there are grocery options here and most of the secondary services work too. I also happen to watch a few things on Prime Video (Jack Ryan, Reacher, The Boys, and Terminal List have all been very good). So it's been mostly worth it for me.

The UX, and product reliability are a completely different thing. I won't by any Amazon Basics products ever again, and many technical products (USB Cables, Chargers, etc) are a total crapshoot unless you buy from known mfg and even then who knows for sure.

[benfrancom]

I canceled my account recently for the same reason. The two day or same day shipping would never happen even though on the product it was advertised as such.

[93po]

I had an interesting experience the other day where an item labeled "Prime" would have taken 10 days to arrive by their estimate.

[macNchz]

The increased “jitter” in shipping times was one of the things that prompted me to cancel Prime a few years ago. Even in NYC my perception was that the standard deviation of transit times had increased significantly.

The other components to the decision were the ever increasing volume of identical no-brand junk/counterfeit products with fake reviews, and the significant improvements in online inventory/buy inline pick up in store options from brick and mortar retailers.

When I signed up for Prime 13(?) years ago very few stores had accurate online inventory, now tons of them do, and the more limited selection actually feels like a benefit.

[superkuh]

I have never intentionally paid for prime. I have tried a couple dozen "free trials" since signing up for Amazon in 2000. The process of canceling these trials definitely has the buttons labeled and styled deceptively. You really do have to pay close attention. And the date at which they start charging your payment method is not when you'd think either, it's a day earlier than the 30 days they promise. I've ended up paying them for "free" prime a few times and only received part of it back via-refund.

[pwg]

I have also never paid for, nor trialed, prime. I also have always had free-shipping (despite not having "prime") from Amazon.

How? Patience. I add things I plan to order to my cart, and once the collection goes above the "free ship" threshold (currently $25) only then do I place an order.

Of course, on the order page they always default to "paid shipping" and force one to explicitly check the "free shipping" radio button to actually get free shipping.

Some years back it felt like Amazon deliberately delayed for an extra week any "free shipping" packages -- they would sit, waiting, for about a week, then packed, shipped, and arrived in about 4 days. I always attributed it to Amazon punishing those who chose to gain free shipping without signing up for prime. But over the last few years that "delay" has shrunk such that it no longer seems like "free shipping" packages get intentionally delayed to "encourage" prime sign-up next time.

[imtringued]

It sounds like they mark your packages low priority and honestly that is the only logical way to treat a customer that isn't paying.

[pwg]

I don't disagree. I picked "free shipping" -- if they want to queue mine after everyone who explicitly paid for shipping and those who pays for prime, that is fine.

My point is that the "de-prioritization delay" seems to have evaporated and I get items shipped in about the same time as the prime estimates (when they are "shipped by amazon" -- third party shippers are all over the board with shipping delays).

[HarryHirsch]

I've always shied away from Amazon's Prime service because the signup process already looks shady, no points offered for guessing that cancallation is even shadier.

Walmart offers Walmart Plus - I've never used it but it looks infinitely less sketchy. Between that and the fact that Walmart has its supply chain under control ("commingling", anyone) the choice is easy.

[Osiris]

I just started seeing items with same day shipping where I live. We’ve received a few items now within just a few hours of ordering it.

Most of the common items we order are 1-2 day shipping. Less popular items can be several days or more.

[baloki]

It’s as much as the sign up tbh where it automatically adds Prime to your basket and makes it hard to realise your signing up to a reoccurring payment.

[ncr100]

I always wonder how much money Amazon makes from their UI "tweakers". The people, originally Bezos, who tweaked the UI to be more or less painful selectively throughout the site.

If it makes Amazon Customers 1% LESS LIKELY to unsubscribe, then $$MILLION DOLLAR AMAZONCOM MISSION ACCOMPLISHED$$.

[lost_tourist]

1-2 shipping is all that's keeping me aboard