Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by throwaw12 1124 days ago
> This decline cannot be explained by demographic, economic, or policy changes.

I disagree with this statement.

Put yourself in the shoes of 25 years old and ask why don't you want to have kids?

* (economic) difficult to manage finances

* (economic) can't buy house, too expensive

* (economic) to compete with others in the workplace, I need to work >12 hours/day, can't do with kids or will be laid off.

* (sociologic) more porn, more entertainment, more fake lives through mobile phones and social networks

* (sociologic) shift in mindset: less religion, less community, more money, FIRE, travel while you are young and so on

19 comments

There’s a really fundamental socio-economic change that nobody has touched upon here yet, as it’s such a slow one with such inertia it’s barely noticeable from the ground.

Having children used to be a profitable enterprise. You’d get married, bang them out one after another, hope that a decent number survived, raised them cheaply, and put them to work as soon as they were able.

Once, and if, they were grown, they would then be part of your family enterprise, be it subsistence farming, cobbling, scrivening, or lording, and would add value.

Now, having a child is a definite cost centre for the individual, for the family.

As healthcare, industry, and the idea of the nuclear family and the individual have developed over the last several centuries, birth rates have declined rather precipitously - if you are 40, you probably have one child, one sibling, at least two uncles or aunts per family side, and your grandparents probably have six siblings each.

You can see this process happening at various stages, in various parts of the world. It’s universal.

This is a long term trend, and it has been on the trajectory to where we are now for a long while.

It isn’t terribly problematic, to my view, as it hasn’t been previously.

Yes, it leaves an eldercare labour and pension gap, but if other trends in industrialisation and the decoupling of human effort from realised value continue, this will fill said gap.

> Once, and if, they were grown, they would then be part of your family enterprise, be it subsistence farming, cobbling, scrivening, or lording, and would add value.

> Now, having a child is a definite cost centre for the individual, for the family.

I get what you're saying, but I mean nowadays it's not like they grow up as a purely sunk cost... A fairly-average-in-all-industrious-matters child will get a job and make an income, and there's a good chance the child will produce more than the input cost. It's up to the family if they're going to share that total wealth with each other though.

In fact, compared to before, there might be even more opportunities for children to increase that "return on investment", if you really want to think that way.

That kid though will want to have their own family, and on goes the cycle.
But then what about the golden example the OP mentions? What was going to happen in that case? Were most children just born into indentured servitude and everything they produced was pure profit for the elders? Surely a good percentage of them wanted to have their own family and leave, or wanted some kind of compensation. The set of possible outcomes seems the same.
>This is a long term trend, and it has been on the trajectory to where we are now for a long while.

Economic conditions (real and imagined) in urban and suburban areas not unlike those seen in 1920 (automation resulted in massive economic gains capture) have caused total replacement fertility to drop in those areas to rates similar to 1920 (total TFR 2.3 at 50% rural -> likely urban TFR much lower).

This isn't so much as "long term trend" as it is "returning to the post-industrial baseline"; doomerism doesn't help, but their choice to not reproduce will improve the climate and resources available to my children so I find it rather difficult to see this as a problem.

* (sociologic) fear of climate change (will the world still be habitable in 20 years' time) or commitment to make a small positive impact on climate change by not having kids

I'm not saying this is true or rational (there are actually blog posts in the rationalist community along the lines of "no, having kids does not cause climate change") but it's definitely a sentiment I've encountered.

>will the world still be habitable in 20 years' time

I dont know anyone that is seriously worried about this in such a way

And dont get me wrong - we arent climate change deniers, just... pick your battles

Why waste your life worrying about something you have tiny impact on?

Before having a child, it was something I thought about and my wife and I would occasionally discuss. Now my son asks, "How can you do this to me? You've screwed up our planet and there is nothing I can do for at least ten years," (direct quote after coming home from school yesterday -- he's 9).

Our kids are worried about it, more so than our generation, that's for sure.

That's clearly ideological brainwashing and you should take it up with the head teacher. It's not only factual nonsense to believe what your son is saying, but also dangerous. You definitely don't want him to be added to the ranks of the "i killed myself to save the planet" brigade.
> you should take it up with the head teacher.

I don't want to teach my son that him misunderstanding something is someone else's fault. Obviously, this wasn't taught in class. He was taught lots of things and was a conclusion he came to on his own. Like nobody ever told me that a McDonald's hamburger will cost around $50 when I retire, I simply did some math based on the average inflation. Will it actually? no idea. But I know that I should probably have that much more in my retirement account.

And what were these "lots of things" that led to him concluding the world is now ruined by you, his parent? Cuz I definitely don't recall anything like that being on the curriculum when I was a kid.

No, pretty sure he concluded exactly what his teachers wanted him to conclude. Nine year olds are not famous for their critical thinking and deep research skills.

If your son is talking like that, it’s a strong signal you haven’t properly put things in perspective for him. The world has always been horrible in one way or another. Go ahead. Pick a time.

This is a 100% attitude and filtering issue.

Man this must be hard on everyone. You and your son included.
Are you going to raise this with the school? It seems highly inappropriate on their part
Why would I bring my son’s opinions up with the school? Because they learned about global warming? Nah, we had a sit down talk about it and how it isn’t “any one specific person’s” fault.
Because from the description, one of two things probably happened: Either the school taught a secular version of a "put the fear of God into them" lesson, and your kid came home in feeling like he literally should not have been born, or another kid talked to him with the same result. That's a really unfair message to hand a 9-year-old.
Maybe I misunderstood but it seemed that he learned it was your fault, rather than this being an opinion he formed.
A lot of people in the 18-35 demographic I am talking to are keenly aware of the environmental issues, and have taken steps to change their lifestyle to match. No cars, becoming vegetarian, buying second-hand, reducing travel, reducing consumption.

Yes, I may be seeing a bubble - but that is across three different countries, and clearly reflected in car-ownership statistics (down dramatically in younger generations) and in voting preferences.

We werent talking about consumption reduction and similar. Decision to not have kids because earth may be not livable is infinitly more drastic
It's anecdotal, of course, but I've definitely seen a number of posts online that amount to 'my spouse and I have decided not to have children, because we don't want to inflict them with the terrible state of the planet in 30 or 40 or 50 years'.
Ive seen crazy stuff on the internet too!

But until I or you manage to meet at least one person with such approach, then I do recommend to do not take it seriously

I have met several people with that idea in "real life". And now?
You're just someone on the internet.
> I dont know anyone that is seriously worried about this in such a way

Do you happen to remember the global wildfires/rivers drying up/massive heat waves in 2020? About a few billion people worldwide / 100m Americans sure do. A larger and larger portion of them are starting to understanding what the cause to that is and are acting accordingly.

Every year, we keep hearing how even the most aggressive estimates for climate change were underestimated. That's terrifying and existential to a lot of people including me.

> I dont know anyone that is seriously worried about this in such a way

there's an entire Voluntary Human Extinction Movement...

> I dont know anyone that is seriously worried about this in such a way

In 20 years not, but it's reasonable to believe for anyone outside America and Central Europe that wide swaths of the planet - particularly the entirety of Africa and lots of Asia - will be unable to support human life.

Hell, we're already seeing issues with water supply even in Central Europe, with France restricting water consumptions because of drought [2], and Germany's water reserves are dwindling as well. India is suffering from a massive heat wave [1], and last year's devastation in Australia should still be in living memory.

Anyone who is not worried about the future of the planet is either ridiculously ignorant to reality or completely incompetent. And the worst thing is, politicians in power play down climate change, act like future technology (anything from nuclear fusion to desalination plants) will save us, or deny it entirely - and wide swaths to outright majorities of people believe that.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/17/weather-...

[2] https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/05/10/southern-france-re...

>Anyone who is not worried about the future of the planet is either ridiculously ignorant to reality or completely incompetent.

Worrying here was reflected by drastic actions. Not worrying didnt mean not worrying at all.

That feels actually anti-rational, since if the people that care about the environment stop having children that means the people that are passing on their life outlook are mostly ignorant of the environment.

It must be a US thing more though, as I haven't personally heard people say fear of environmental damage to keep them from having kids.

> That feels actually anti-rational, since if the people that care about the environment stop having children that means the people that are passing on their life outlook are mostly ignorant of the environment.

This assumes that parents successfully pass on their life outlook to their children, but if that were true then society would have never changed.

I don't share the life outlook of my parents.

> This assumes that parents successfully pass on their life outlook to their children, but if that were true then society would have never changed.

> I don't share the life outlook of my parents.

So the climate "birth strike" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35973163) strategy would necessarily have to have two parts to be successful: 1) refuse to have kids, 2) indoctrinate many of the ones that remain to reject their parent's outlook and adopt the strikers' outlook (e.g. through control of the school curriculum). I would expect the second point to result in scenes like this, where a kid comes home from school mad at his a parents for having him in a world with climate change: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35973070.

It's all about averages. People, on average, will share the same broad traits and characteristics as their family. Also, depending on your age, give it a couple of decades. Time and experience have a way of shaping our character in ways we may never have expected, let alone ever desired.
To avoid repeating my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35973362
There’s a movement called birthstrike with people who are refusing to have kids because of concerns around climate change:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/mar/12/birthst...

>if the people that care about the environment stop having children that means the people that are passing on their life outlook are mostly ignorant of the environment.

That argument seems rather doubtful to me.

It's not a perfect correlation, but I'd find it hard to believe that children don't share on average more of their outlook on life with their parents than with a random member of society.
It's a pretty bad, very risky "investment" in the environmental cause, though, because by the time your kids are old enough to vote, it'll be almost 20 years later already, the kids will be using up resources while they're growing up regardless of the ultimate outcome, and you can only pray in the end that they'll agree with you on values when they're adults. You can't just pump a new environmentalist out of the womb.
> That feels actually anti-rational, since if the people that care about the environment stop having children that means the people that are passing on their life outlook are mostly ignorant of the environment.

If your goal is to pass your life outlook to more people in the next generation, I believe you're probably likely to be successful without kids than with them. Without kids you have much more time to reach more people.

Or the ones having kids are actually more rational. Consider:

1. There is no scientific reason to believe the world is doomed. Go read some serious climatology papers and see for yourself. They're unreliable and exaggerated but even so, no doom.

2. State pensions and benefits might actually be doomed though given demographics. If the state can't take care of you in old age, you'd better hope you have kids who will.

it's irrational at the aggregate level, but rational at the individual level

many such cases

(the reverse happens a lot too)

It's not about whether your kids will cause climate change. It's about creating children just in time for them to suffer through the collapse of civilisation.
The collapse of civilization is happening since the dawn of civilization.

Jokes aside, I have heard both points made. Yours and the one from the parent poster.

We had pretty stable temperatures from the dawn of civilization (the end of the last ice age) until about 30 years ago.
From 1300 ~ about 1700 there was a "little" ice age that cuased widespread famine and cultural disruption.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age

Yes, the current temperature shift now is greater but it has been ongoing for a much shorter period of time.

> but it has been ongoing for a much shorter period of time

That's worse, not better! https://xkcd.com/1732/

We did not, that's the famously debunked hockey-stick graph claim.

Temperature has varied drastically throughout time. There were Vikings growing barley in Greenland, something completely impossible today. The reason you believe otherwise is because climate doomers lie a lot.

For most people who say this, it’s just a rationalization.

Acknowledging that kids are infeasible for economic reasons, like GP laid out, is just too painful and embarrassing. So the ‘environment’ fig leaf saves their dignity.

It's kinda down on the list of prios but "I can not in good conscience have children grow up in this world where I see only problems and no solutions." is definitely on it, and you can call me overly pessimistic, but not sure how this has anything with dignity.
This is one the factors as to why my partner and I have decided against having children. Not because we think it'll make the situation worse, but because we believe they shouldn't have to deal with the significant fallout from resource contention, climate migration etc. that is more than likely on the horizon when they had no hand in creating the problem
This is a weird take to me. Even if climate change turns out to be significantly bad, I have a hard time imagining it would be worse than most times in human history. Only a few generations ago people lived through two world wars. We could have a third world war at some point, or the AI doomers could be right, but would that stop you from having children? This feels to me like someone who doesn’t leave their house because they are worried a car might hit them…it’s an unhealthy anxiety about one of many potential risks, that shouldn’t prevent you from living life.
Keep in mind that I've said it's one of the factors, not the only factor.

But why should my standards be just better than most times in human history? That seems a low bar to me, most times in human history were miserable for the majority of people compared to the living standards I've become accustomed to.

To be clear, I don't feel there is any moral duty to continue my particular genes and the world population will continue to increase for the foreseeable regardless. If I were to have children I personally would feel guilty if they had it significantly harder than I have and I think the likelihood is that will be the case - it's really as simple as that.

If you grew up with $50M+ and lived a luxurious life, but lost it all, would you not have children over worries they may not have the same standard of living that you did?

If you could be born in America in 1925 and live until 2015, would you? Or would you decline because the standard of living dropped right away with a Great Depression followed by a world war?

I agree with you that if I knew, with certainty, that my children’s lives would be filled with nothing but suffering, I would make the same choice. But a fear of a theoretical drop in a standard of living, and which may not even impact an American over the next 100 years all that much, does not seem to me like it should reach that threshold, and I suspect it is starting to for others because of the media playing into their anxieties. There are people living that lived through the holocaust and are still happy to have lived and, over their lifetime, have had fulfilled and happy lives. I suspect your children could likewise carve out a happy life, even if their standard of living is somewhat reduced.

I agree you have no moral duty to have kids, and if you don’t want them, don’t have them. But if you want them, but are not having them because you find that to be cruel to your unborn kids, I question whether that is really a rational choice.

> If you grew up with $50M+ and lived a luxurious life, but lost it all, would you not have children over worries they may not have the same standard of living that you did?

I'd agree there's nuance to this. For your cherry picked scenario, no, that wouldn't affect my decision. I can accept a single person having a reduction in living standards. However, when most of Western society (I'm British, not American) is struggling to attain housing at a rate similar to the generation before, when the middle classes as a whole aren't able to become as financially secure as the generation before then it is enough to give me pause.

So ignoring any climate worries I already think things will be much harder. When you add on that it's estimated that billions will be without sufficient water in a few decades it's not hard to imagine that there will be significant problems of which I have very little confidence that we will be able to handle well as a species.

Perhaps I'm overly pessimistic. But as I say, this isn't the only factor we've taken into account, it's more a tertiary concern.

If we're talking about mortality salience, then there's quite a lot of evidence that mortality salience predicts a greater desire to have children, which is the opposite to what you're suggesting.

From an evolutionary point of view, this seems plausible. Obviously not having children because 'life is hard' is almost certainly dysgenic.

> I'm not saying this is true or rational (there are actually blog posts in the rationalist community along the lines of "no, having kids does not cause climate change")

I would not use the "rationalist" community as a measure of what is rational.

I generally agree with you and while reading that line made me laugh, I think you are misunderstanding the statement.

If I read that line charitably, it wants to point out that no single set of demographic, economic, or policy changes can directly explain the decline. It appears to be an emergent outcome—a sum of its constituent factors.

Yes we could go and enumerate the hundreds of reasons people contribute to the decline, but the article wants to ascribe a more "matter-of-fact" explanation to populations of people rather than speculating those hundreds of reasons.

And though I'm defending the above statement, the article writes in a tone of surprise ("The Mystery"), which makes it difficult to take the article seriously. This emergent property shouldn't surprise anyone at all considering nearly every developed nation is experiencing it...

(policy) the middle class was forced to bail out the 0.1% for making bad investments during the crises of 2008.

It should be obvious to everybody the U.S. is an oligarchy. It actually has been for decades now, but it was laid bare in 2008. Many people are fighting the oligarchs in an interesting way - refusing to provide them the labor they need to further enrich themselves. The kids born in 2008 would be 15 in 2023. What the oligarchs are worried about is a huge drop in the labor market. That's one reason they're pushing so hard for ending abortion. All I can say is there's going to be a lot more incels.

Increased/unlimited immigration seems like their preferred solution to the labor shortage problem. So what if a country's population are refusing to work, just bring in people who are used to worse and pay them less than those pesky citizens.
Then why do these same people complain so much about being "invaded" from the Southern border? Seeing as how I see them as both xenophobic and racist I see their real fear is the precipitous drop in white women having children. They want labor, and they want it to be white. American, at a minimum.
Immigration has always been an issue in America, even in the past when the immigrants were white, and even now among Hispanics themselves.

There are so many reasons for it (economic, social, political, religious, etc) that are just ignored when the thought terminating insults come out.

The "same people" probably want lots of immigration to staff their factories with cheap labor, but they want the Republicans in power because they want lower taxes et al. And the way to keep the Republicans in power is through racist xenophobia.
Because people want to do many of these jobs, but at a livable wage?
My term "same people" was referring to the oligarchs. They complain about the invasion from the Southern border, yet they also complain about people "not wanting to work." It's pretty clear they want to keep America white. I think alarm bells are going off for them with the slipping of the white majority in America.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt on your first comment, but are you really implying that all american oligarchs are republicans? Sure, some of them are saying the things you mentioned. But it’s ridiculous to ignore all the other ones claiming that not having open borders is a human rights violation.

Both sides play to their audience, but all of it is ultimately about cheap labor.

We can either automate production or import workers.

Currently we're automating as fast as possible. Meanwhile people are flooding across the border. Perhaps migrants realize that once ChatGPT is robotized, automation will spread to dominate the economy: there will be less need for labor (immigrant or other).

BTW assuming "oligarchs" control the economy is not a useful concept.

don't forget education is expensive, and quite a few have received funding in predatory lending ways where the debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy without even receiving the degree.

you need to marry, be debt free, and have a down payment (20% of 700k is 140k down) for a house to have kids. Kids need to happen before 35 for your wife; mortality increases greatly after that. You need 2 with modern medicine, or 4 children without for one to make it to 18. These are all very known quantities.

If you can't make enough to cover your expenses and enough for 2 others you can't have kids.

Couple that with the job market, education, debt, and all the other unlivable things the silent generation didn't have to deal with and that's why we are where we are. A lot of people aren't having kids because there are no incentives; you bear the cost. Its stupid, but that is the world we all have created over the past two generations. Through inaction or action.

Personally I'd like to have kids but just like everyone else, the economics just isn't there. There's also the general unlivable coercion that's everywhere nowadays. So a lot of people are choosing to be the last generation of their family line.

That's not even touching things that will never likely pay out a benefit by the time I get to the age where I can use those programs. It has no funding after 2032 or something like that.

You think you need two children for one to make it to 18?
The US has seen an insane rise of child and adolescent mortality over the last years [1] - and a large part of this is due to the top death cause: homicide or other firearm incidents [2], a scale orders of magnitude worse than among other developed nations.

Add on top of that the rising drug epidemic, the removal of access to reproductive and mental health care...

[1] https://news.vcu.edu/article/2023/03/child-and-teen-mortalit...

[2] https://www.kff.org/health-reform/press-release/firearms-are...

Still, the probability of dying while a child in the US is minuscule (about 35 in 100,000 from the first source cited)? Hardly enough to have an additional child to make the expected number out of the two at 19 to be 1 child.
It's still way too high - once a week there's some sort of shooting incident in the US [1], and that doesn't include all the other mass shooting incidents in general society [2], nor the shooting incidents that don't kill multiple people. Frankly, for me as an European, these numbers are insane - and the worst thing is, even after outright massacres nothing changes.

It's one thing if society learns something from incidents like we did with after the mass murder at Winnenden 2009. But in the US, it's "thoughts and prayers" and that's it - utterly dystopian.

[1] https://www.edweek.org/leadership/school-shootings-this-year...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_...

School shootings are a rounding error in the youth homicide statistics, but they definitely make for good cable news coverage.

The elephant in the room is inner-city, largely gang-related violence. Stopping those kids from obtaining firearms by restricting legal purchases makes about as much sense as keeping criminals away from encryption by restricting E2E encryption on WhatsApp.

For some reason, Hacker News thinks the former is absolutely possible, despite knowing the latter is not. Weird.

I didn't really want to bring this up, but .. yeah. The reaction to the deaths of children being to libel their parents by claiming that the whole incident was made up is one of the most incomprehensibly disgusting things about American politics. It should not have been necessary to sue Alex Jones over that, his public audience should simply have evaporated overnight of their own accord.

"Protecting children" is only ever brought up in US politics for dumb controlling initiatives that do anything but protect children. Actually protecting children is taboo.

Yes, its not a belief, its simple risk management perspective.

You need at least two with modern medicine. You have a limited time period to have children, after which you can't have more without significant consequence, and you won't know ahead of time about the risks or need.

There are increasing mortality rates, and increasing unmanageable risks (i.e. regulation, and other aspects of government working against parents).

If you want your family line to continue and survive, you need at least 2 children, if not 4 or more. 4 is better.

There is cost, but that's what needs to be possible that no one talks about. That actuarial all death discrepancy during the pandemic is most likely attributed to lack of general availability of medical care during that time. The risks change without notice. During the pandemic, in my role supporting our IT support staff (System Engineers helping overflows) I heard from people across the country.

Some families were nearly wiped out, imagine if 3/4 of your family died and it was a large family. One man I spoke with was just crazy with grief, he had to help with funeral arrangements for eight of his family members in the span of a few weeks.

>12 hours/day

I can't even imagine working a minute longer than 8 hours per day, and 12+ hours is woow. Is this common in US?

I work 8 hours my whole career (IT). My wife works 6 hours per day. (central Europe)

I am an engineer as well, in western Europe with kids. But I regularly see people committing code at 9pm or commenting on docs at 11pm or see their testing traces (logs) at 1am and on weekends.

I can't compete with them in any way. "Don't work hard, work smarter" doesn't apply here, because I am surrounded by smart people, who also do smart work, when baseline is same, you just need to work more.

Guess who will be liked/praised more and have less chances to be laid off when conditions get worse?

I am lucky though, its not easy to fire people here, can't imagine what's happening in US

> But I regularly see people committing code at 9pm or commenting on docs at 11pm or see their testing traces (logs) at 1am and on weekends

That might not mean much - you'd see the same from me, but I don't work more than 8 hours/day (on average), I just work very irregular hours.

> I just work very irregular hours.

Do you also come to office and spend 8 hours, even if you do nothing? I see those people in the office almost regularly

Yeah, makes sense if you see them in the office all the time.

I often come to the office for just a couple of hours and then do more work afterwards from home, and other days work entirely from home.

I have worked 10-12 hours a day throughout all of my working career (from 19yo onwards). This is in central Europe, and I'm not even the hardest worker around.
Do you just sleep, work, commute and do chores? That sounds dreadful to me.
I also have hobbies and a social life - but it has consequences.

Family and children are entirely 100% impossible in this lifestyle without a stay-at-home partner. And unlike previous generations, stay-at-home partners are no longer a thing.

(Edit: to make it clear, I am not making a judgement, nor wishing for a stay-at-home partner - I'm entirely in favour of everyone making their own choices in life.

I am just pointing out that younger generations are now living in a totally different environment from previous generations, where a stay-at-home wife was the default. Which is yet another component in the birth rate equation.)

Props to you man, I have no kids and still barely manage to have hobbies and social life with just normal full-time hours. I do need a lot of time to sleep and simply rest and do nothing, so that is a factor.
To quote Peter Zeihan, kids are no longer free labor for the farm, they're expensive furniture for your tiny condo that often break things.
In short, they are an expensive and smart cat.
What a wise man.
* (sociologic) no trust in your partner (which is partly related to social networks and porn in some ways). they can divorce anytime, because it is easier to divorce than trying to resolve issues in the relationship, which will leave you as a single care taker of the kid, which creates 2 issues: (1) do you want to raise alone, making kid feel half family (2) can you actually raise alone with current demand at workplace

* (political) do politicians want to and policies support having kids? Like helping with healthcare when needed or should you spend 10k$ for simple things per kid?

Number one is very true. My generation has so many children of divorced parents that I don't see these trust issues ever being fixed.

I'm not sure if it's attributable to porn though. I think it's rather our individualistic, bordering on narcissistic, culture that is driving this.

As the old saying goes, it takes a village to raise a child. The next best thing after the village is the family.

But in a society where the individual is celebrated and divorce is so common, the whole burden of raising the child rests either on the mother or the father. And that is just too much to deal with.

I think if you look back in human history it was natural that the tribe would take care of all the children, thereby spreading the burden a lot. But we don't have the tribe anymore. And the families are now breaking apart, too.

The alternative of growing up with parents/grandparents that obviously despise each other isn't any less harmful.
Divorce rates are going down and have been for generations.
The rates don't matter here because the overhanging threat of divorce is what sways someone from having children.

I'm a DINK myself; I've watched the complexity of my friend's divorce with children and I perceive it as more evidence I've made a good decision.

you’re insane, divorce has exploded since the 50s
You're wrong, maybe rates went up drastically once it became socially acceptable, but since then they have had a decline [1].

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/marriage-divorce.htm?CDC_AA_re..., for rates since 1990.

> * (political) do politicians want to and policies support having kids? Like helping with healthcare when needed or should you spend 10k$ for simple things per kid?

They (conservative ones) seem to want to force births (against abortion & in some extreme cases, even contraception). But the followup on supporting kids is, like you said, not there.

I feel like real estate prices outweigh a lot of other factors entirely because real estate costs in places people would prefer to live are an order of magnitude higher than they were even a generation ago after accounting for inflation, and where people live determines an immense number of other factors.

Of course, it will be hard to fix that unless we can get people to realize the problem is fundamentally a literal shortage of housing in places, and that slapfighting with developers and landlords won't conjure up more homes for people to live in.

Japan has a similar problem but my understanding is house prices are much more reasonable there.
>> to compete with others in the workplace, I need to work >12 hours/day, can't do with kids or will be laid off

The Bureau of Labor Statistics in the US tracks this. Average weekly hours worked as of April of this year is 34.4, or 6.9 hours a day: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t18.htm.

For IT, that would be under "Information" on that chart, so the average was 36.3 hours, or 7.3 hours a day.

In addition, the number of hours worked per day has been falling historically in the US. So if a high number of hours worked was negatively associated with birth rate, birth rate should be higher now than in the past.

As far as being laid off, the unemployment rate is as low as it has been in over half a century.

These statistics [1] would suggest that sociological factors are in play, especially if you look at the graphs for young people. The number of young men not having sex is at record numbers.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-ame...

But why is this trend then not visible in Germany? All of what you say applies there too.

https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoel...

As the sibling post noted, most of the positive natality in Western Europe is due to immigrant mothers. And since the US has quite a strong barrier to entry for immigration they don't benefit from this effect.

[edit] Looks like in term of raw numbers, the US has much more immigrants than Germany for example. But in terms of legal immigrants there's about twice the number in Germany vs. the US for 2021 (dunno how reliable statista is though).

https://www.statista.com/statistics/199958/number-of-green-c...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/894223/immigrant-numbers...

Here is a better chart to back this up. Data from France, UK, Germany and US:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?location...

Seems pretty unique to US.

Thus I conclude that most of the speculation in this thread is not backed by the facts.

there are couple of differences between EU and US which can introduce confusion:

1. EU countries sees a lot immigration from Middle East and Africa, who has more kids and there is still a cultural difference towards having kids, give some time to those people to notice the environment and you see similar trend

2. but also EU countries have stronger labor policies which impacts birth rate. Not easy to fire, even when they don't have a job, they get support from government, cheap healthcare (I pay ~250-300 EUR/month for a family, no payment for kids), free dentist until 18 years for kids.

It doesn't cancel what I have said about the impact and reasons, if same conditions exist in EU countries as well, you would see similar decline, which also means this is a political and economical issue

This may well be true. But it also may well be not true to the extend that it can explain that decline in US and the differences to similar countries. So far I’ve not seen much data to back up the alleged causality in much of this entire discussion.
sometimes discussions are just to share the opinion and disagreement, not always they contain result of research. I shared my disagreement about specific statement which says: "This decline cannot be explained by demographic, economic, or policy changes" and shared couple of economic and policy issues which might impact the birth rate.

Real reason(s) could be even different, e.g. chemicals used in foods or a plastic? we need a research. But expecting single reason is probably wrong

Would there also be effect that long term relationships are hard and pairing up has been disturbed by dating apps. If you aren't living together with regular partner taking next step of getting kid rarely happens.
> If you aren't living together with regular partner taking next step of getting kid rarely happens.

Hard to live together with your partner if you're living with roommates (or worse, parents) because you can't make rent or can barely afford a 20 m² micro apartment.

There's a comical Jurassic Park "life finds a way" outcome lurking... those reproductively restricted by these ideas gradually will be replaced by those who are not so inhibited.
> This decline cannot be explained by demographic, economic, or policy changes

Yeah what the hell, of course it can. How blind do you have to be to write something like that?

Wait I know a video that describes your comment

https://youtube.com/watch?v=j800SVeiS5I

Yeah that statement is whacky.

Over the past 40 years, was has been rate and efficacy of formal and informal sexual health education?

Pretty sure 80s kids got a lot of reasonable knowledge their parents lacked, and then went on to raise the next generation who are now much more aware of gender, sexual preference, etc concepts and increasingly so via informal means (Tiktok, etc).

No explanation! Just dont look at education policy!

> Just dont look at education policy!

Indeed. There's been decades of "TEENAGERS: DO NOT HAVE SEX AND IF YOU DO ESPECIALLY DO NOT GET PREGNANT, PREGNANCY AND LABOUR ARE DANGEROUS AND UNCOMFORTABLE" messaging, and now we're surprised that it's working?

I think your last two points make up most of the drivers. Particularly now many people are in an un-breakable relationship with their smartphones.

I know many people that simply don't want to entertain the "hassle" of a relationship. It's an inconvenience for them to think about somebody else other than their own immediate needs and wants.

* (policy) - If things don't work out, your wife will divorce you, take half of what you have and enslave you to pay her support for the next 15 years. Actually, she might do that just because she needs more passion while you are hard at work.
Whenever I hear "wedding" I wonder why the male is going for that risk. The obvious unfairness and non-equality during a divorce is the main reason why I never would get married. Its just illogical to put yourself that much at risk.
I mean, disregarding "love" and whatnot, at least in the US, there are lots of bureaucratic benefits to it.

I'm not religious or anything, so a wedding in itself doesn't mean a lot to me, but my wife and I got married in no small part so we could share health insurance, help with her immigration, and lower our tax burden. I don't regret the marriage, I trust my wife, and we've been pretty happy for the last eight years.

People forget all the reasons gay marriage had to be fought for; no matter how solid a relationship is, the external privileges of having that status recognized matter.

(Also, few of the posters in this subthread are looking at the woman's side of the game theory)

I believe that seeking external recognition is only necessary when one is unsure and requires external validation to feel confident.
No, there are all sorts of very specific and sometimes tragic cases like "who is allowed at the bedside of their dying spouse in the hospital" where official recognition matters. The AIDS crisis produced a number of those incidents, but it's also happened to straight people as well that if you're not officially married you may find your partner's family having legal rights which you don't.
Yeah, because these incentives matter for the fertility :)
Where I come from, public health insurance is a given, so no need to marry to obtain that basic "right". Marrying to fascilitate immigration is not unheard of, however, most cases I know are more about economic incentives then actual love. I can not speak about lowering tax burden, the system I am living in is apparently too different from yours.
Marriage is only worse, but having kids without marriage comes with most of the same risks and inequalities. Like what are the chances that the father gets custody?
The father only gets custody if the mother is proovably insane or basically unable to provide for herself. In all other cases, she is treated with extra priviledge.
In some countries divorce only leads to splitting assets acquired since marriage, not all assets. It's a lot more rational to do it then.