[manningthegoose]

I just don't understand who wants these foldable phones, especially at the $1799 price point. I guess a use case is wealthy frequent travelers who don't want a separate device with a larger screen to watch movies/videos on the go? Someone help me out here.

[ianbutler]

I'm never going back. I only type and respond to things unfolded, I have big hands and the split keyboard + bigger buttons are great. Outside of that I'm a fairly big reader and I enjoy reading both articles and books unfolded and have no interest in bringing a second device to do so.

I also write notes with stylus on it which is practical unfolded. More real estate for video etc. And then I can just fold it and use it as a phone for calls.

[0x6c6f6c]

Yeah reading the specs, it's s larger screen than my Nexus 7 tablet, with a smaller overall device size, and fits in my pocket.. it's tempting. But definitely pausing at a $1800 price tag

[usrusr]

You have it reversed: it's not "we want to make a foldable phone, how expensive does it need to be?", it's "we want to ask $1800 for phone, what could we offer to find buyers".

The biggest problem in the market of exceptionally expensive phones is that they don't really look all that different from cheaper ones. Foldable phones solve that.

[troyvit]

Yeah I think you're right. Phones have been pretty much the same since the first slab came out. I mean screen-size got bigger, DPI got higher, "stuff scrolls really smooth now!" These -- to me -- are just incremental changes to the same features from 2013 and aren't great motivators to drop the phone I have into the landfill and get a new one. It seems phone companies are casting about for a new gimmick.

[usrusr]

Also true, but that's not what I meant: buyers not replacing the phone they have often enough is solved, battery decay and lack of updates. But there's not much that sets the $1000 replacement apart from the $300 replacement. A $1800 replacement? The market for a $1800 phone that is as obviously different from the rest as a foldable is many times bigger than the market for a $1800 phone that is just better somehow. My prediction is that unless some cheap newcomer brand shows up with a foldable, none of the established will ever make the first move and offer their foldable cheaper, no matter how low the actual cost might be.

[kyriakos]

If this was around the 1200 price point they'd be selling like crazy. Chewing into the premium android and iPhone share. Google would have been a trend setter with foldables if they offered a lower price.

[davidy123]

My theory is Google doesn't want to be too competitive, they mainly want to enable the Android market. If they're too competitive, Samsung, Motorolo, Oppo, etc will change to a different base. Google benefits from Android anyway by its embedded core of Google services.

However, I think with the -a series (7a, etc) they've turned to filling a gap with a reasonably priced high quality device, because Samsung &c low priced handsets are really terrible.

[kyriakos]

That's a good theory, could also explain why pixel devices are only available in only a small part of the world population.

[drexlspivey]

What other OSes are out there to choose from?

[bombolo]

I'm waiting for the great symbian comeback!

[revelio]

Android forks.

[kyriakos]

huawei seems to have found a way around google since they were restricted from using it.

[aetherson]

If they're selling them at $1800, they'd almost certainly be taking a steep loss selling them at $1200.

[kyriakos]

Of course they would. What I said was hypothetical but if it could have been done it would be a market disruptor.

[midnitewarrior]

Perhaps there will be a Pixel Fold Express (a) or some other moniker for a value-focused foldable that's more easily attainable for the masses? I'm trying to think how much money I'd need to make a year where dropping $1,700 on a device with a 3 year lifespan makes sense. I'm thinking I'd need to be an executive that works around the clock before I could justify that expense. Everyone has different values of course.

[kyriakos]

3 years life span is questionable considering pixel 7 and 7 pro quality issues (falling buttons, cracking camera glass)

[radicaldreamer]

It is if you're using Google Fi -- $700 off with 24 month commitment to keeping Google Fi

[emptysongglass]

Fi user here: I don't see this offer anywhere. Inside the Fi store it shows a $1000 trade-in offer but that's it.

[bippihippi1]

https://fi.google.com/about/promo-terms/?id=Cf_80IW--gUA&pli...

[hackernewds]

that seems like a fine tradeoff. I'm already on Fi, and the service is great, even internationally

[llampx]

Exactly. Have a barebones screen on the front or no screen at all, and make it cheaper. I get that they want it to be premium, but it doesn't need an expensive high-refresh OLED screen for both screens!

[christkv]

Just a matter of time really. 24 months ?

[rrrrrrrrrrrryan]

They're $1100 if you subscribe to Google's phone plan

[emptysongglass]

I'm a Fi user and don't see this offer. I've scoured every page of fi.google.com: nothing. Just a trade-in offer.

[bla3]

https://fi.google.com/about/promo-terms/?id=Cf_80IW--gUA&pli...

[echelon]

That sounds nice, but I want the same foldable form factor for entirely opposite reasons.

I want a rough, minimalistic foldable like the old school Razr. Something that can take abuse.

I want to be able to flick it open and close with the snap of my wrist and stuff the folded form factor back into my pocket without worry.

I don't care if there's no screen covering the bezel. That'd make it less durable anyway. Two screens, similar to the Nintendo DS is fine.

I'm sick of the smartphone slab and exposed glass. I want a wallet shaped device with a protective plastic or metal shell on the outside.

[kibwen]

Samsung makes a flip phone with a foldable screen that opens into a standard candybar form factor: https://www.samsung.com/us/smartphones/galaxy-z-flip4/

[Thorrez]

Have you seen the new Razr? https://www.amazon.com/Motorola-RAZR-Phone/s?k=Motorola+RAZR...

[bombolo]

> I don't care if there's no screen covering the bezel. That'd make it less durable anyway

If it doesn't crack 5 days after you got one, how will you buy a new phone?

[iknowstuff]

Why.

Put your slab in a protective case and a screen protectir and you get a much more durable device than flip phones ever were.

[adastra22]

And now it is a giant brick that doesn’t fit comfortably in your pocket.

[dragonwriter]

Get a bigger pocket.

[bombolo]

Will do, after I grow up another meter -_-'

[echelon]

If the glass faces in, it'll start emergency dialing. If it faces out, it'll scratch.

[mywacaday]

I have a note 10+ and the stylus is a game changer, I would like a wider screen for taking notes but can't justify the cost. Also my note is nearly 4 years old and showing no sign of slowing down or battery issues.

[LeonenTheDK]

No sign of battery issues is huge, I'm still rocking my 3 year old Pixel 3a and recently replaced the battery, it was a night and day difference. General slowness/lack of responsiveness, half day battery life. Been like that with all my other smart phones since 2013. Would love my next phone to go on year 4 with no sign of battery degradation (although in lieu of that I'll take an easy to replace battery).

[aqfamnzc]

> night and day difference

> slowness / lack of responsiveness

Are you saying that replacing the battery improved your phone's responsiveness? I knew there was a throttling thing with iPhones but hadn't heard of anything outside of that.

[bluk]

Samsung, OnePlus, and other phone manufacturers have all been accused of throttling phones and have acknowledged the throttling and/or released patches to give more user control. You can google "<manfacturer name> throttling" and get new reports of throttling as recently as last year for Samsung.

[joecool1029]

> Samsung, OnePlus,

Blame bad Samsung fab. Things like the Qualcomm 888 chipset were notorious for overheating like crazy requiring throttling (used in both Samsung and some Oneplus devices). Need TSMC. Apple had issues all the way back to like 6S era when they sourced from both and the TSMC ones just ran better.

You can override it with a custom rom and messing with EFS on those devices but it's already flirting with battery dangerous temps doing gaming. Better to buy TSMC or strap an icepack to the phone lol.

[pandaman]

My wife's Nexus 6 would only play games at what appeared to be 2 fps unless hooked to a charger after three years. And those were just some 2D puzzle games, not COD, so I imagine other 2D apps were not running at full speed too but it was extremely apparent on games.

[lwkl]

A degraded battery can't deliver as much power as a new battery and for your phone to feel fast you have big cores to boost to over 3 GHz which requires a relatively high voltage. These voltages aren't possible with a degraded battery and that's why your phone feels slower.

[usrusr]

The voltage range of aged batteries is the same as the day they leave the factory. Or it could be even larger if the BMS is set up to sacrifice a little nominal capacity für lower wear when new, slowly widening the range as capacity decays. The temporary voltage drop while drawing a large current will be bigger on an older battery, that much is true. But that would still be a smaller delta than the one between fully charged and not at any age. If there's performance difference, I'd expect it to be from deliberately yearning performance/runtime trade-offs (which arguably are better to have than not have)

[zw7]

How do you feel about the lack of security updates? I miss the smaller size of the 3a bit upgraded since they stopped shipping software updates. I'm hoping you can talk me in to resurrecting it.

[jonhermansen]

I believe you can install LineageOS on any old Pixel and still get updates. Though the type of updates will be limited. https://www.lineageos.org/

[pizza234]

YMMV may vary a lot with LineageOS, unfortunately.

I was a big fan, but:

- Nexus 5X support was terminated

- Pixel 1 support is broken; the device used to reset daily (works fine with the original OS)

- They have at least one serious open issue (GPS not functioning, although it can be worked around)

In the end, I had to buy a new phone, that is officially supported. I still donate, but I don't hold my hopes high anymore, anytime that a device gets out of official support.

[j45]

Only charge up to 80% battery unless you need the full charge and the battery generally lasts much longer

[rtpg]

Is there a place that has empirical data on this stuff? Like what battery factoids are still true with the latest devices or not?

I would honestly love for phone manufacturers to outright build in some software to build in best practices if they actually exist. Don't let me charge to 100% at first or something!

[cfiggers]

AccuBattery is an Android app that gives battery usage statistics and more detailed readouts from the OS w/r/t battery condition and charge/discharge behavior.

Their help portal has a research summary explaining their sources (the most recent of which is from 2010, so battery tech has likely improved in some respects but it's still a useful reference point): https://accubattery.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/210224725-...

[bluk]

I don't believe Apple has released empirical data, but Apple has optimized phone charging built into recent versions of iOS (Settings > Battery > Battery Health and Charging). It will stop at 80% and then resume charging to 100% about an hour before you start using your phone every day. iOS tracks your daily habits to determine the start of your day.

In the most recent iOS versions, if it can determine when "clean energy" is available near your location, it will also try to charge only during those time periods. I don't think any 3rd party has determined if it is effective.

[itsyaboi]

Get into the quadcopter hobbyspace, you will learn more than you ever wanted about battery chemistries.

[kevin_thibedeau]

You'd be better served by leaving power save mode on all the time (No haptic touch or animated UI) and minimize brightness to extend the intervals between charging.

[j45]

I’m pretty sure you should be able to find data. Only a handful of battery manufacturers used.

Phones typically are geared to use the full capacity of the battery.

The demand towards the thinnest phones possible leaves smaller tolerances towards cramming in the biggest battery possible.

I think the galaxy note 4 was the last one with a removable battery therefore something that could run a long time.

An external battery case depending on how you use it can extend the lifespan of an internal battery too.

[kybernetikos]

I've seen the longevity graphs for lithium ion (don't know about other chemistries, but there's still a lot of lithium ion around). Ability to retain charge drops off faster if the battery is kept fully charged, especially in warm temperatures.

My electric car by default only charges to 80% unless you tell it you're planning a long drive in order to conserve battery life.

[qdl]

My Note10 has this. You can switch on battery protection and it will stop charging at 85%

[wolpoli]

The quadcopter community has dig up research on the longevity of lipo batteries under different charge levels. Note that they do push their batteries really hard. Their findings apply as long as the latest devices still set 4.2V as 100%.

[ChoGGi]

Mind if I ask what battery you purchased?

[poglet]

Went from a Note 8 to iPhone. Lack of stylus bugs me all the time. One of my favourite features was being able to hover over foreign language words and it would translate them, even if the word was in image or a button on an application.

On iOS if you wanted to translate the text on a button you have to take a screen capture, then translate the screen capture.

This was possible partly because of the stylus hover feature, but also because the Android permission model allowed for applications (translation service) to 'see' the screen of other applications. Something I don't think iOS allows.

If you enjoy using foreign apps, learning languages or living in an area with a different language the Samsung Note series was fantastic.

[ta_man_ios_961]

Happy to help! iOS has a few built-in ways of translating text that generally involve long pressing and hitting translate from the menu or selecting the text, tapping the selected text, and hitting translate in the menu. If you select measurements, unit conversion is also in this menu.

However, every way involves the text being [selectable] text and not something like an image (unless you use your method). And you said button, and I am not positive if a long-press will trigger the press event.

[bebna]

Got a regular Note10, my battery is basically dying slowly. Yes, I used battery helper tools to regularly only charge to 80%...

[j45]

It’s always good to own the phone that people can’t understand or looks like a gimmick.

It’s how the iPhone looked to bb users.

It’s how the Note 1 Phablet looked compared to 4” smart phones

You can only go so big in a phone.

If Apple nails the iPhone max that unfolds into an iPad mini while minimizing thickness, it will be hard to ignore.

[option]

pixel fold doesn’t seem to have a stylus, does it?

[ianbutler]

I use a Fold 4, which technically doesn't either, but Samsung provides a sort of dumb stylus that works pretty well plus case for some small additional amount. I imagine Google can do something similar.

[cma]

The Fold 4 stylus is Wacom, not a "dumb" capacitive stylus if that is what you mean (unless you specifically bought that). Maybe you meant no recharging needed?

[ianbutler]

I was mostly talking about in contrast to the pro styluses that seem to have broader utility like a clicker, gestures and whatnot. I agree that this is not a capacitive stylus, I don't believe the writing fidelity and lack of lag would be nearly as good.

[saghm]

You don't necessarily need one to come with the phone; there are third-party stylus(es?), and as long as you have a decent way to store it in your pocket or on the the case, it's still handy.

[thekaleb]

This is not true. There is a big difference between a capacitive and active stylus. You must have your screen support an active sounds stylus.

[saghm]

What part isn't true? I didn't claim that it would satisfy everyone, just that it might come in handy for some people. Having done this myself, I can confirm that the set of people that I claim exist is in fact non-empty.

[zmmmmm]

yeah lack of stylus is a killer for me - I would use the samsung one instead just due to that. hoping this spurs Samsung to make their next version even more compelling and also ensures Google mainlines all the OS support for foldable phones - and then I can get a foldable with a stylus.

[xnyanta]

I'm posting this from my Galaxy Z Fold 3. I'm not particularly wealthy or a frequent traveler. I bought this phone used for 750 bucks in Canada and my main use case for the screen real-estate is reading manga on it, which it excels at. It also then serves as a phone and a media in bed machine. It is fragile and I take good care of it but it is absolutely the most innovative and exciting phone I've had the pleasure of using so far. I'm excited for the future of foldables and hope the next generation of the pixel fold will bring more serious competition to Samsung's lineup!

[r00fus]

I think you hit on something here - if you can get it for 750 (in any currency) it becomes interesting.

If it's nearly 2k, it's a plaything for the rich that's both fragile and may have issues that are likely to be poorly supported by the vendor.

[mlyle]

Early adopters always have this experience: expensive products, with issues preventing mass-adoption, with uncertain vendor support in the long term.

I'm not sure whether foldable phones will become what everyone uses, but this is typical for new products that have not started zipping up the S curve.

[caddemon]

Dunno if they'll become ubiquitous, but I think various foldable forms will at least stick around as a viable market segment. Most early-ish adopters I know from the zFold and zFlip 3 generation are planning to get another when it's time to upgrade. Granted that's a biased sample of like 5% of the people I know IRL, but still it's not too common to see that much agreement after a year+ of use for a product that's just a gimmick.

[User23]

Lots of great technology like indoor plumbing and electric lighting started as playthings for the rich. Early adopters serve a useful purpose for everyone.

[caddemon]

Not sure about the Fold 3, but the Flip 3 has been surprisingly durable for me. Dropped it multiple times getting out of Uber, fell off desk onto hardwood floor, etc. never with a case on and most recently without even the plastic screen protector.

I thought for sure when I first bought it I'd have to be super careful about the hinge but by now I'm constantly opening it and closing it during the day (though not quite jerked around like an old school flip phone).

I'm amazed at how perfectly it still works almost 2 years later for me, I made a point of keeping my old pixel phone instead of trading it in when I made the upgrade because I was so worried the Flip wouldn't last.

Definitely going to be getting another Flip when I do upgrade again, unless maybe Google launches its own version of that configuration.

[RajT88]

Can confirm that the screen real estate makes reading comics of all kind amazing.

I usually do so on my tablet, but before tablets were a thing, I was reading comics on my various touchscreen phones. Pinch to zoom: Mandatory.

I prefer cheaper android phones. My requirements for a general purpose computer in my pocket were long ago exceeded. Reading comics on the go is fine with a phone, better with a tablet (of which I have several, the most expensive one being still cheaper than the cost of the new Pixel Fold even when you add in the cost of my work phone and personal phones).

Computing power is so cheap these days, I am a big fan of just having one-off devices on the cheap. My new Kali Linux box? A $50 refurb Chromebook. Let's not screw with multi-boot shenanigans if we don't have to.

I really don't need a do-everything device. I think most people don't either, they just want one.

[manojlds]

So you don't want it at $1800 right.

[xnyanta]

It's absolutely overpriced considering I think Samsung has better offerings at that price point (which I think are equally ovepriced). I think fierce competition will bring the price of this emerging form factor down in the long term. That said, I am loving the device and will not hesitate to pay some more to trade it in for a next gen device when they come out. I'm not interested in returning to a slab phone at the moment after habing gotten a taste of the Fold.

[RajT88]

Fierce competition, and dropping production costs for the tech.

I am old enough to remember when your average laptop was several thousand dollars, much of the cost of which was due to the LCD display. My daily-driver laptop in college I bought used for like $900 in 2001 (a Toshiba Tecra 780-DVD), but originally all the kit I bought with it would have run close to $6,000.

[raincole]

There are plenty of people who don't use a (desktop/laptop) computer outside of their jobs. If you're on HN, you're probably not one of them, so it can be difficult to imagine their behaviours.

For example, in Japan, 36.6% of teenagers say they don't use PC at home [1]. It's also a country where people read a lot of comics. Now these foldable screens make more sense, right.

[1]: https://news.yahoo.co.jp/byline/fuwaraizo/20201021-00203217

[rjh29]

Comics are actually changing to suit phones rather than the opposite! Newer web comics show one panel at a time in a long vertical strip.

And tablets are still a thing, you can just use them for comics instead of spending $1800 on a phone.

[ggm]

I'm on HN mostly on a samsung 10" tablet but in my day job I work on my mac. If I tried harder DeX might work for me.

[throwaway675309]

Apparently Japanese teenagers also have a lot more disposable income to drop nearly two grand on a cell phone.

[raincole]

Some of them do, of course. iPhone's market share is ~65% in Japan. If they successfully marketed it as an "iPhone + iPad in your pocket", $2k would not be an unimaginable price. And there will be more affordable foldable phones when they're more adopted.

But of course this one is from Google so it doesn't enjoy Apple's branding premium.

[melling]

“I just don't understand who wants…”

I’ve heard so many people make this comment about a variety of things.

I recommend paying closer attention and learning.

The best response is to let people figure out for themselves what they don’t get.

[ggm]

It's sometimes a way to say "can somebody explain the pros and cons" -I don't get an air fryer (for instance) said so, and an aficionado explained the Ps and Cs to me.

Now I just say "doesn't do anything for my style of cooking"

[wiseowise]

Most of the time it’s not. Usually it’s just a cheap indirection to “I don’t like this”.

[bootlooped]

But there have been cases of industries or companies pushing things that consumers aren't really interested in in any non-trivial numbers.

[izacus]

As per Ted Lasso: "Be curious, not judgemental."

[crossroadsguy]

I also don’t understand who would have wanted a 4 inch then a 5 inch then 6 then 7 and maybe 8 inches phones while their palms remained exactly of the same size. Sometimes I feel people just want weird shit. And yeah new things. Just “new” things - otherwise Apple’s non-upgrade upgrade phones will go unsold.

[16bitvoid]

I feel the trend to bigger phones is probably indicative of phones being the sole computing device for more and more people. Anecdotal, but one example is my parents. I've watched them go from having desktops to laptops to iPads while they kept getting the biggest iPhone available. Now, their phones are pretty much all they use (outside of a smart TV and an Amazon Echo).

[walthamstow]

My parents and all their peers (born early 60s or before) have the biggest phone they can buy because they have the font size set to the largest setting.

[Levitz]

Simple, Marketing creates demand.

The vast majority of the population doesn't need the kind of computing beast they are using, but it is what gets sold to them. Everybody in society gets a phone and the vast majority of them are technologically illiterate, it's absurd to think that organic demand directs direction in the phone market.

[wiseowise]

Because palm size is what dictated size of original phones, not technological advancements allowing for bigger, affordable, higher quality phones?

[atourgates]

It's more than the price of a nice smartphone, and a nice tablet.

An iPhone 14 and iPad Pro are gonna' run you $1,600, and be more useful in most cases.

I mean, sure, you're not going to fit an iPad in your pocket, but do you really need to? And when it's out, it's more productive to have a separate tablet and phone, than just one device that's trying to do it all.

Folding phones are a neat idea, and as a technical achievement, this is impressive. But in terms of price and practicality? I don't really see the appeal or value.

[xanathar]

I, on the other hand, can't see a single reason why somebody would want a tablet. We've had some, and they all ended up forgotten in a drawer. Either I'm in a place where I have whatever limited portability I can (so I use the phone) or I have a laptop with proper keyboard, applications and OS.

On the other hand, I always have my phone with me and I'd definitely benefit for a larger screen when reading emails, websites, documents, planning trips or whatever.

That said, I would never pay that kind of price, neither for a foldable, nor for an iPhone so I guess I'm out of that market niche anyway.

[scarface74]

I travel a lot for both business and personal (nomadding 7 months a year). I never turn on the TV while I’m at the hotel on business by myself. I watch from my iPad. It’s my only “personal” computer. When I occasional need to be “productive”, I use my wireless mouse and keyboard from my computer and pair them to my iPad.

Finally, it’s also part of my three monitor setup for my laptop. The other is a portable USB C powered monitor.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B095GG31KX

[xnyanta]

I have an iPad for note-taking at school and literally don't use it for anything else. In fact it's out of battery most of the time I pick it up. My Samsung fold is just so much more versatile and I hse it for media consumption most people without a foldable hse a tablet for.

[throwaway675309]

Sigh, Really? You're obviously not an artist then, many of my friends and I have already replaced our Wacom dedicated tablets with an iPad with the pro pencil.

[saagarjha]

Tablets are great in bed.

[alpaca128]

Who am I to judge.

Jokes aside, I never found the bed to be comfortable for any kind of content consumption, even reading books is annoying. And when I already sit upright I might as well have a keyboard too.

[saagarjha]

I am a lazy slob

[lmm]

> And when it's out, it's more productive to have a separate tablet and phone, than just one device that's trying to do it all.

Not convinced. Having to move back and forth between two devices is a pain. Just like how a powerful laptop with a docking station is much nicer than a cheap laptop and a desktop, even if the former costs more.

[s1mon]

> Having to move back and forth between two devices is a pain.

I do that a couple times a day. Almost everything that I do with these devices stays in sync through various accounts/cloud in the background. Admittedly I'm just doing this at home, but when I travel, I pretty much always bring my iPad (in addition to the iPhone and my Apple Watch which are on me as long as I'm dressed and awake). I don't have it set this way at the moment, but you can even have any app that you install automatically get added to the other device.

It's very different than a typical laptop/desktop situation since those are harder to sync (depending on what OS/apps/files/etc are involved). However if a lot of what you do is in the cloud, then maybe switching between laptop and desktop is more fluid.

[kimbernator]

These things always cost more at first, so I agree that it's "overpriced" for the value it brings. That said, I think the practicality is that it provides all of the value of a phone and a tablet in a single device that fits in your pocket. It's a fairly large leap in the ever-growing list of other devices that smartphones are replacing.

I also like to think that long-term maybe they will have the ability to fold out along more than one dimension and potentially be dramatically larger than this, but that's just dreaming at this point.

[Jarwain]

I've gotten a lot of value out of my fold 4, especially in spontaneous situations where I don't have a tablet or my notebook at hand. Pull out my phone, snap a picture, then annotate. Or just pull it out and draw to try and get a concept across. Reading or watching videos, sharing an image, or whatever. And I Always have it with me, because I always have my phone with me. I don't carry around my laptop everywhere, and I've never purchased a tablet.

It's just remarkably convenient

[wiseowise]

> An iPhone 14 and iPad Pro are gonna' run you $1,600, and be more useful in most cases.

It’s 1600 for iPad Pro alone in Europe.

> I mean, sure, you're not going to fit an iPad in your pocket, but do you really need to?

Yes.

> And when it's out, it's more productive to have a separate tablet and phone, than just one device that's trying to do it all.

Majority of people care about convenience, not productivity.

[danwee]

> Folding phones are a neat idea, and as a technical achievement, this is impressive. But in terms of price and practicality? I don't really see the appeal or value.

I thought that was the consensus... It surprises me that Google is investing money on such a device. Weird.

[wildzzz]

Folding phones have some good use cases like video/photo/music editing, desktop publishing, word processing, and probably some other things I can't think of. However, those are all great things to do on a tablet or laptop. The foldable phones seem to be the next evolution of the phablet design but those didn't exactly sell well. Although the reason those didn't sell well was because of how big they are, a foldable gives you the package of a phone but the screen size larger than a phablet. Do you need to do all of these editing/publishing tasks on the go and don't want to carry any more than a portable keyboard? A foldable might be for you. Google just doesn't want to miss out on the potential market. Will they continue to sell? Honestly who knows. Carrying around such an expensive device like you would your phone seems risky but I'm probably not the market for these devices. Google is just looking to make sure that Samsung doesn't corner the market even if its just a fad.

With Apple bringing Final Cut and Logic to the iPad, they can cut further into the "creative on-the-go" market without having to bother creating a foldable and just leverage their existing tech.

[caddemon]

The price is not going to be that high in 5 years, and when the price becomes comparable with the latest iPhone that's going to have the potential to flip a totally different market segment to Android than would've previously considered it.

There are also multiple ways to use the folding screen tech, they can make phone with normal size unfolded screen and small folded form factor instead. Women's pocket sizes alone can sell a lot of those, and there's definitely a nostalgia market for e.g. the razr form factor too.

[manojlds]

> Google is investing money

Unlike other prudent decisions from Google in the last decade?

[wiseowise]

Consensus on what? That having a phone that can switch into a tablet whenever you want it to, no more having multiple devices for the same thing and convenience is what people want?

That’s a consensus, true.

[youngNed]

I use one (fold 4) its actually a game changer, and i could see me not going back.

I think google has correctly called the direction of travel here

[gtop3]

If you use your phone an average of 5 hours a day for two years and then throw it in a junk drawer the hardware would cost less than 50cents per hour of use. I use my $800 iPhone about 30 minutes a day, keep it for 4 years, and spend about $1 per hour of use.

I'd say the market is heavy cellphone users that use apps that benefit from the larger screen.

[sidfthec]

> If you use your phone an average of 5 hours a day for two years and then throw it in a junk drawer the hardware would cost less than 50cents per hour of use.

I don't understand this type of justification.

My fridge would cost around $65k for a 15 year lifetime at $0.50/hour.

It just seems like a completely meaningless way to judge the value of something.

[LeifCarrotson]

They're hoping to sell to you based on the value it provides rather than the cost to produce the thing.

Classic sales reframing tactic for obscene 500%+ margin products: You should buy this thing far above market rate because it's worth a lot to you, not because it's priced at a realistic BOM + labor + reasonable profit margin.

[lotsofpulp]

How is this phone far above market rate? Which competing products with equivalent functionality are far below it?

[Dylan16807]

They're talking about the tactic in general.

[unpopular42]

If you sell at BOM + labor + reasonable profit margin, who pays for R&D and who covers the risks? This makes no sense

[ahoya]

Are you joking? The reasonable profit margin pays for R&D. Unreasonable margins and over priced crap hurts everyone.

[unpopular42]

Well, in this case it all boils down to a personal choice of what you label "reasonable".

[crazygringo]

The point is not to judge sticker price as an absolute or as percentage of your annual salary, say.

It's to judge it based on the value it gives you per unit of time.

It's the entire justification for investing less in things you use less, and investing more in things you use more. That we generally receive benefits not in one-offs but spread out over time.

[sidfthec]

It's completely missing a huge part of the equation though: comparison to cheaper options.

Something might not sound so expensive if you frame it as $0.50/hour of use. But it certainly does if there's an alternative that meets your needs that you can get for $0.10/hour of use.

[crazygringo]

Well of course, it seemed like that part went without saying.

There have been a bunch of times in my life when I delayed purchasing or felt guilty about purchasing something genuinely valuable but very expensive.

But then when you're in year 5 or 7 of using it daily, you're like... best use of my money ever. That's the point here.

If you spend a ton of time needing a large screen, using this for 3 years might be that expensive purchase that pays off for you.

[maxerickson]

You can sleep on the floor for ~free.

That doesn't make it worthless to figure the approximate cost per time used of a couple of different beds, maybe even a nice one.

[manojlds]

"At the price of one coffee cup" is another thing that gets me.

I brew at home and it's 10p for me, is that what you mean?

[_zoltan_]

10p? based on p I think you're in the UK? what kinda coffee is that?here a 3rd wave coffee costs around 42-50 CHF for a kilo and you need 18g for an espresso, so 0.756-0.9 CHF per espresso if I calculate 0 for amortization of equipment.

[ISL]

I've never done this arithmetic before. With a massively inefficient usage of a french-press, I get something like three cups of coffee from a press and perhaps 7 fillings of the press from a bag from my local store. That coffee is $6 USD when it's on sale and $8 when it's not.

Neglecting the cost of the $20 press, the water, the kettle, the rinse-water, the mug, and the heating of the water, that's about $0.33 USD / cup?

[manojlds]

I was just using a small number for effect, but it's closer to 30p usually for Americano/Filter coffee equivalent. Point remains the same.

[wiseowise]

You forgot heating up water, electricity and your time spent on it.

[deltree7]

Irrelevant analogy. Let me know when you can build your own Tablet.

[lo_zamoyski]

Technical sophistication is not equal to practical value.

[deltree7]

A translation service from Swedish to German has no practical value to me. But, I don't go on the internet dissing Google for providing that service to people who find it useful

[wiseowise]

Did you also calculate amount of dopamine rush and convenience that your fridge brings you compared to your phone?

[deltree7]

You'd pay double the price for double the fridge capacity (if doubling your capacity serves useful purpose for you)

You'd pay double the price for double the screen size (if more screen size serves a useful purpose to you)

It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

[sidfthec]

I would? I don't see how those have anything to do with the price.

The newly announced Pixel Tablet screen is 4 times larger than the newly announced Pixel 7a, and they're the same price.

Is the Pixel Tablet supposed to be $2k because the screen is 4x larger?

I really don't know what either of you are talking about with these strange thoughts on pricing.

[wiseowise]

I can twist this around and say that Pixel 7a should cost higher because it’s 4x more portable, what’s your logic?

[deltree7]

It doubles as a Tablet and a Phone and I'm willing to pay Tablet + Phone + Convenience price for it.

A concept not hard to understand.

[thaumasiotes]

Do you often buy the same product in different sizes?

[deltree7]

Yes, I bought an iPhone 4 and then upgraded to iPhone 6 which had a larger screen.

I had a 55' TV and I also bought an 85' TV.

I had a 24' monitor. I also bought a 34' monitor

Not a difficult concept to grasp

[mlyle]

> I had a 55' TV and I also bought an 85' TV.

> I had a 24' monitor. I also bought a 34' monitor

So huge! I don't think I could even fit a 24' monitor in my house. How would you get it through a door?

[pstanger]

hi, I want these folding phones. Though I took advantage of the ridiculous trade in offers that Samsung usually promotes with. Everything is just nicer on the bigger screen: messaging, browsing, videos, gaming. And that screen is always in my pocket. Can't read the QR code menu at the restaurant? Here, look at my pocket tablet.

The technology is still in an awkward phase but I think slab phones will be obsolete in 5 years

[CameronNemo]

I don't want to have to lug a tablet everywhere, like some fulltime scribe.

[skeaker]

I think the idea behind the folding form factor is that you don't have to lug it around, since it's in the same shape as a regular phone whenever you're not using it (and I don't think people consider having a phone in their pocket "lugging it around").

[caddemon]

Check out Samsung's zFlip form though. I think if foldables take over the small flip versions will always maintain enough of a market to also exist.

[imron]

I don't want a crease in my screen, which I've seen on every single one of these used for any length of time.

[coconut08]

as a person who has daily driven a fold for almost 2 years the "crease" is a complete non-problem when you are using it. its mostly just people who havent actually used it that complain about it because they heard some influencer complaining about it or they saw a picture someone took of it with a studio light blasting down on it at the perfect angle.

[imron]

Nothing to do with "influencers", but yes I haven't really used it. My opinion was formed from watching other people's phones who have this and deciding I don't like it, and I'm not prepared to change phones to give it a try on the off chance that I mind not find it an issue.

[wiseowise]

Then don’t?

[xnyanta]

Totally agree, especially for the restaurant menu use case even if it's niche. I can have a regular phone walking around folded and just unfold whem I sit down and am ready to consume any kind of media.

[manojlds]

I want folding phone too. Question is, at what price.

[ncr100]

Google Fi offers a trade-in, and separately a "keep service for 24 months" prorated $700-off deal.

[taeric]

Agreed on the high costs. That said, I am very happy with my flip. Smaller pocket footprint, and far fewer accidental unlocks now. (That is, my phone used to unlock with me just putting hands in pocket. Very annoying.)

Also feels good to "close" the phone. In ways that locking doesn't quite reach.

[emacs28]

Personally I love my overpriced Samsung z fold, I don't use a laptop anymore (just a desktop), I can easily read double-column research articles wherever I am, it's great for drawing diagrams, and all of that without having to remember both your phone and a tablet everywhere you go.

[epolanski]

You answered your question, more real estate. The price is not appealing but to me any smartphone above 300$ is unappealing.

[sidibe]

Yup. I definitely see the appeal of having your phone and tablet be the same thing. I'm sure these will get cheaper eventually if they work well.

Not surprised at all by the cost it's a lot different product and very new. There's people paying 1K for normal phones.

[wraptile]

I'm really perplexed too especially since the crease is still so visibile and the build quality so weak.

I feel like carrying small phone and a tablet/laptop is still a significantly better value any way you look at it unless you travel a lot without any storage on your human. I found the most ergonomic travel setup for me is a Lenovo Yoga laptop and the small samsung s22. Both of which can be bought for less than 1800$.

[fomine3]

I had bought a tablet but I rarely bring it outside of home except longer trip. Even if I bring it, it's annoying to take out from my bag for a short time use. I finally bought Fold3 and I put it on my pocket everyday. Having it 100% of time is too useful for everything. Crease is too minor problem than that.

[shmoogy]

It's "good" for everything on the go if you can handle the bulk of it folded. I've got an iPhone 14 pro and a Galaxy fold 3. It's roughly the size of an iPad mini when unfolded and is my favorite form factor. Small enough to carry around and enough real estate to RDP or SSH to get some actual work done if you need to.

I don't like carrying a bag with my MacBook if I can avoid it

[VincentEvans]

Eventually all phones will be like that and the price point adjusted for inflation will be comparable to what normal phones cost now. So this is just a way for you to get a device from the future by paying a premium, or alternatively you can just wait.

An iphone was also amazing unique and expensive when it first came out. But by todays standards - a $100 android phone is both more powerful and a lot cheaper.

[leokennis]

I am currently carrying an iPhone and an iPad Mini. The iPad is to read the newspaper, to watch photo/video, and in cases I need to do real multitasking (i.e. make notes about a PDF, so I want both on my screen at once).

If I could have both in one device, that'd be awesome.

So far however (besides the fact that only Android has foldables), the very visible crease is a dealbreaker for me.

[sofixa]

> the very visible crease is a dealbreaker for me.

That's what I thought too, but after speaking with a Samsung Fold something owner, and testing it for some time, it's mostly visible only in some angles. Also I imagine it's like notches and holes, you get used and forget about them.

[o1y32]

Just like many people still don't understand why people have Kindles. They would think -- you can read books on phones, many of which are as large as 6.7 inches? Or Why not get an iPad or iPad mini, and you can do so many more things on it? So on and on. (I have two kindles and I don't personally know anyone who has a kindle. But that is fine.)

[GGroen]

Eye strain

[gibspaulding]

I can't ever see buying one, but it would be nice for reading PDF's without constantly having to zoom and scroll around.

[rakoo]

You could have said the same about the transition from featurephones to smartphones, why would people pay 3 times the price for a battery that barely lasts a day, my 2" screen is more than enough to read my texts, etc... And yet here we are

[edandersen]

Until someone actually sells an 8 inch OLED tablet, these are the only options on the market today for a small tablet with a good screen.

[SoylentYellow]

Only option right now is a Lenovo Y700. Not OLED, but it has a great looking 120 Hz screen, fast processor, and premium feel. However, it only comes in a Chinese version, so I ended up creating "unsecure" networks and accounts (Youtube, Reddit, etc) to use with it.

[solveit]

For me it was something that I could read papers on while still (just) fitting in my pocket. Probably not the median use-case, but still.

[_boffin_]

I lug my iPad Pro 11 everywhere with me just so I can read, write and do notes when I have any down time.

And yea, what you stated is why I want a foldable phone

[screye]

I've a Galaxy Fold 3 and now 4 for about 2 years now. It is my biggest cellphone QOL improvement since the Pixel mainstreamed AI photography in the first pixel.

Best extra $400 spent per year or so.

[emptysongglass]

Can you go into detail on what specific improvements drive this value for you?

[coffeebeqn]

Yeah this costs as much as a MacBook Pro.. absurd

[eb0la]

I don't feel it's absurd. For every product in the market there is a luxury version for people who's insensitive to price (hello LVHM!)... except for phones.

If you have all the money in the world the most expensive / exclusive phone you can get is an iPhone, Samsung Fold, or this Pixel Fold.

[resolutebat]

Vertu has entered the chat: https://vertu.com/collections/signature

$118,500 for a diamond-encrusted dumbphone that's still running Symbian, anyone?

[lotsofpulp]

How is this company still in business?

[ben1040]

I wondered what was up with them and actually found an interesting read about it on the way.

https://www.wired.com/story/we-tried-vertus-web3-phone-it-sc...

>“Vertu has changed hands lots of over the past decade, but is still being run by a bunch of folks based out of Hong Kong, very close to the Chinese supply chain,” says Neil Shah of Counterpoint Research. “These folks with renewed focus are rebadging existing models from brands—ZTE, for example—with luxury materials and advanced hardware and software.”

[sanitycheck]

As I understand it, the phone is just the thing you plonk down on the table that says "I'm megarich". The true functionality is in the service, imagine having a voice assistant that can do anything - we're closer to that than ever before with AI but Vertu users have had it for years using real humans.

I met a guy once who got sent to Dubai for a week and his only job was to visit all the places a wealthy person might want to go to, while carrying a Vertu phone in his bag. They wanted to check signal strength.

[stonogo]

Wealth and judgment are unrelated.

[lotsofpulp]

Just because you are wealthy, does not mean you want to be inconvenienced. Especially to the degree that not using a modern iOS/Android device would inconvenience you.

There’s a million ways to show off you are rich that would not result in you wasting your time.

[JohnFen]

> the $1799 price point

The folding bit has no value to me, but even if it did, that price point is unacceptable. A phone is something I carry every day and don't treat like a delicate flower. If it costs so much that losing or breaking it would bring financial pain in addition to the pain of the loss of the phone, it's not suitable for my needs.

That said, I'm being overly cautious because I've never actually lost or broken a phone.

[kelnos]

That's the thing. My current phone (Pixel 4) was something like $700 when I first bought it, and the idea of breaking it was pretty scary for me, for something I carry around with me everywhere, every day. It's been a while since I've broken a phone, but it's happened, and my wallet was not pleased about the experience.

I don't have a tablet and wouldn't want one as a dedicated device, but I could absolutely see myself using the tablet features of the Pixel Fold, given that I wouldn't be carrying around an extra device, and it's pocket-sized when folded up. (I usually read a book on my phone when on transit, for example, and would love to be able to do that on a larger screen.) But carrying around a $1800 device that's as easily breakable as a phone? I think I'd be too anxious for that.

[x3n0ph3n3]

I love my Samsung ZFlip4, which feels much more like the old flip phones, but it also has a smaller screen on the outside with a few handy functions that keep my from having to unfold it. The form factor is just so comfortable and fits wonderfully in my pockets, including my breast pockets.

[shp0ngle]

I like to read comics and I’m too lazy to bring tablet with me. I am thinking about buying foldable.

That said, not at this price point and with Pixels not known for their hardware quality. Maybe I’ll wait for when Apple inevitably does their foldable.

[theodric]

The inevitable Apple foldable will come with the inevitable Apple price. I'd say $2000.

[teekert]

If it has an M3 chip and stuff like iMovie seems to work fine. Or it's the only driver for the VR glasses that are coming, or wirelessly connect to certain monitors.. It may be a "new class" of device.

I mean not new for humanity, but for Apple.

[wiseowise]

2,5k for 1TB model.

[shp0ngle]

Good point.

[Wildgoose]

I have a Surface Duo phone. Using both screens together is like using a tablet, but it folds up and fits in my pocket. I can have the keyboard on one screen and have a full display on the other. I can look something up on one screen while using something else on the other screen.

By comparison, the standard of "splitting" a single screen results in something that is often too small and awkward to use and with too little screen space for comfortable viewing.

[dsq]

What keyboard do tou use for text input?

[Wildgoose]

Application dependent. Usually Microsoft Swiftkey, but Hacker's Keyboard when I am programming (or similar).

[dsq]

Great. How does Hacker's keyboard work with the surface duo? Do you have any insights/pros/cons for using this keyboard with a folding phone?

[maxerickson]

At $1800, they aren't really pretending it isn't a niche product. I'd rather they were messing around trying to make a big screen in a small package than not.

[ncr100]

They do discount it for Fi customers.

On the site, if you use Google Fi Wireless, and you keep your service for 24 months, then they prorate $700 discount for each month.

[baby]

Me! I want one so bad. I just can’t get out of Apple’s jail ecosystem :( I think if the next iPhone doesn’t come out with a fold model I’m finally going to switch back to Android.

Why: I read a lot (pdf, not epubs) and I watch videos a lot.

[hndamien]

When Apple makes a foldable phone a bunch of people will want them, if for no other reason than to just stop scratches.

[shaftway]

I carried one of these when I was at Google (needed it for my job there). When I was using it by myself casually I almost never unfolded it. But when I wanted to see more detail in a photo or wanted to show someone a YouTube video it was invaluable to be able to unfold it for the temporary larger screen.

[asah]

Never going back. Maps, video, even messages are all way better. With the fold open, you get overview and details.

[lannisterstark]

>I just don't understand who wants these foldable phones

The problem is that they're using the wrong fold. I want my screen to EXTEND outwards. I don't want to go from one screen to open yet another screen. I want it to intuitively either extend, or allow me to fold OUT my content, not in.

[_heimdall]

I bought an original Surface Duo last year for $350. For the price it was a really investing phone. The proper dual screen is actually really handy, I don't think I'd find it nearly as useful with a single foldable display that is effectively a worse tablet.

[oatmeal1]

In addition to being very expensive, it also seems like you can't get a case on it. And they probably don't have much texture on the outside to give a good grip. Bad grip + bad protection = keep some savings in case you wreck it.

[carlton_gauss]

Anyone who wants the functionality of tablets, but doesn't want to carry an extra thing everywhere. I'd pay easily $3000 for a foldable with a good pencil and a good CAD app. Right now, the only such device is the ipad with shapr3d.

[mFixman]

You could say the same thing about any >$200 phone, or any new device at all: gadgets are luxury devices, and there's no upper price for the luxury sector.

Besides, if this lasts at least 4 years then the amortised price is more reasonable.

[gmerc]

Eyesight. Hard to imagine for someone under 35 but ya, it’s a game changer.

[izacus]

"Who wants this expensive camera on a phone when you can buy a cheap phone and a Nikon DSLR?"

Turns out... Plenty. Just like foldables. Samsung has been doubling shipments every year.

[alpaca128]

I just don't see any value in this feature while the OS is so limited. For now I'll stay with my foldable that comes with a keyboard.

[abhinavk]

That's why Google doing this is important. If they don't do, the app and OS situation will remain as it is.

[w0m]

I'd happily use a Fold if it cost ~half as much. Size doesn't matter that much in pocket for me; and it looks convenient when actually using the device.

[michelb]

I may consider them at a much lower price-point and if they were much thinner, so not anytime soon :) My ideal is the Westworld style tablet, but that's sci-fi.

[jeroenhd]

I want one, but not while they're this expensive. I'll wait for the price to come down at least two thirds before I even consider buying one of these.

[ncr100]

Check the Google Fi site for a $700 discount for customers who keep Fi service for 24 months.

[jeroenhd]

Google Fi doesnr exist in my country, but even still that's a steep price for a phone.

[ncr100]

AH yeah $1000 for a phone is bonkers. Like $250,000 USD for a car....

$400 is better.

$175 is good.

$50 is great - need subsidies from the carrier for this, IMO.

[browningstreet]

My dream combo is a small iPhone with best camera and an updated iPhone mini. I’d still rather have those but that prices out similarly… so I get it.

[scarface74]

My combo is an iPhone 12 Pro Max and a cellular Apple Watch. My phone isn’t on me when I want sone distraction free time - gym, running, watching TV with my wife, etc.

[bebna]

The new Sony 1 V will cost 1.4kEUR, not much less. Phones in general got expansive. (The Samsung Fold 4 is at 1.3 to 1.2kEUR)

[komali2]

1. Nice to watch youtube videos on, which I do a lot. Both in portrait and landscape. I watch a lot of linus tech tips, photography videos, breadtube, and mandarin learning videos on it. I wouldn't buy it for this alone.

2. Really excellent emulation device. Powerful enough hardware and phenomenal screen. I use it as-is in portrait mode for the best possible DS emulation on-the-go. I can at least 4x the resolution in almost all games. I can also slap a gamesir controller thing on either side to turn it into a sort of switch-style emulation device. I play ps2, ds, 3ds, gba, gamecube, n64, snes, and nes games on it.

3. Good game streaming device. Mount the controllers on it and use moonlight or steam link to stream from my desktop PC, even if I'm not on local network. Or, use nvidia geforce now or whatever it's called. There's a separate link to servers here in Taiwan through taiwan dageda, so I get ridiculously good connection.

4. Pretty good note taking device with the stylus. This is the use case that drove me to purchase. I'm always experimenting with various ways of (handwritten) note taking, especially on books I read, and having all my notes right there on my phone is really, really nice. I never "forget my notebook" now. Well, unless I forget the stylus lol, or it falls out of my pocket, which has happened 3 times now, and the styluses are an absurd like 50$ or something, so, this device is not nearly ready for mainstream consumption. Similarly, it's great for banging out quick engineering diagrams or designs. I can export to image and throw directly on a ticketing system, or upload into slack. Nice flow, if I get a question from a junior when I'm on a train or whatever.

5. Reading books is very nice on it.

6. Using music-making apps, especially ones with piano rolls and keyboards, is phenomenal. I really wish it had an aux plug though. The jellyphone 2 has that and is the size of a pill bottle, and has dual sim and removable SD storage. No excuses. Although, my version of the galaxy fold 3 does have dual sim.

7. The width of the screen when folded is actually usable on my smaller hands. This was another big driver for getting it. Hilariously, my initial reason for looking for my next phone was, I was tired of big phones, and wanted one I could actually use one handed. Funnily enough the narrow width (that so many people complain about) of the galaxy zfold3 was a big selling point for me.

8. Using maps is really nice on it, and I'm doing this constantly because we're always exploring Taiwan.

In all, I don't think I'm down to drop another 1.8k (1.4 for me because I got it on contract) on a phone any time in the near future. When this phone bites the bullet (and the inner screen is already "tightening" and reducing the flatness of the unfolded state, so one of these days I'm sure I'll overextend and crack the thing) I'm going to get a nice small android something, I heard the Asus zenfone 9 is a good size at a fair price.

As cool as all the features are, it's not like I have all THAT much time to game or make music on my phone, and worse case, I can just toss the thing into my plane-toys bag when I have flights or whatever. The notes taking feature I still use occasionally, especially for diagrams, but I've since moved to a onyx boox e-ink tablet for that, mostly because this lets me hand-write annotate epubs, a feature I've wanted on a device for like, 15 years lol.

So, after ~1 year of using the galaxy zfold 3, I can say, it was worth the money ONLY because it fulfilled like 8 usecases for me. Take away even a couple of those and there's no way it's worth it. A better alternative would be a jellyphone or pixel + a small affordable android tablet in the bag with a stylus. Spend the remaining on a previous version op1 or opz if you're really into music making, or a steam deck if you're really into gaming. Or shit both lmao, you're right that 1.8k is an insane amount of money.

Edit: looking through the marketing material, I'm not seeing any stylus usage on the pixel version. Even if a stylus would technically work, if the responsiveness and sensitivity doesn't allow for note taking, this thing doesn't make any sense to me. On the samsung foldables, the responsiveness of note taking with the stylus beat out literally every other device I've ever tried it with. It is phenomenal.

[LegitShady]

I want the foldable, but at that price point I don't.

[micromacrofoot]

tech workers making $250k a year

[jamincan]

Who wants to watch a movie on a square screen though? I guess it would be better for browsing in most cases.

[SMAAART]

People love to buy things they don't need, with money they don't have, to impress people they don't like.

[wiseowise]

People love empty quotes that don’t mean anything, but sound deeply philosophical.

[SMAAART]

But it's true.